Man spends 110K IRS refund error on mortgage, car & students loans, now in jail

[Liberal_in_LA]

IRS Gives $110,000 To Wrong Guy, Now He's In Jail

A California father is in jail and faces charges after the IRS deposited $110,000 in his account that should have gone to another taxpayer, reports KCAL.

The money was supposed to go to an elderly woman, but she had provided incorrect bank account info to the IRS. When the seeming windfall hit his bank account, the man spent it on saving his house from foreclosure and paying off student loans.

Los Angeles prosecutors say the man failed to notify authorities of the error and charged him with one felony count of grand theft by misappropriation of lost property. The man could face up to four years in jail if convicted.

The man offered to return to the woman the $65,000 that was left over and make monthly payments on the rest but she rejected the offer as she wanted the monthly payments to be higher.


http://consumerist.com/2011/06/irs-deposits-110000-in-wrong-guys-account-now-hes-in-jail.html


“He received the money on Sept. 10, 2010 and on Sept. 11, 2010 he started spending the money on various bills that he had,” said Lockhart.

Lockhart said the mix-up came after an unnamed Los Angeles woman inadvertently provided the IRS with a Citibank account number that had been closed in 2004 and was subsequently reassigned to McDow.

After attempts were made by the woman’s attorneys to recover the funds, McDow told them he had already spent up to $60,000 of it on car and student loans and to keep his home out of foreclosure, Lockhart said.

McDow faces four years in prison if convicted and is being held on $110,000 bail.

http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2011/06/15/prosecutor-oc-man-used-110k-tax-refund-error-to-pay-various-bills/

[Tuesday Afternoon]

1. .

[Liberal_in_LA]

4. it's her money. if he had been honest and reported the error rather than spending

it like a drunken sailor, she'd have 100% of her money.

[plumbob]

7. If she knew her own bank account number, it would be helpful.

The bank bears some little burden here as well. This man is not alone, and he didn't spend the money on drugs or child sex.

[Liberal_in_LA]

12. the error is partly her fault, yes, but that doesn't allow someone else to profit

[plumbob]

15. He's not trying to profit. He offered $65,000 cash and payments.

She turned it down.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

31. don't let facts get in the way of their indignation --

they are old and scared, too.

[Liberal_in_LA]

32. Better decision would have been to not spent any of it and returned 110K

[Maru Kitteh]

86. He has already profited. He spent money that wasn't his on personal gain.

Wiping out debt does profit the individual whose debts are relieved.

[Occulus]

163. Please explain exactly how.

Thank you.

[Maru Kitteh]

167. I just did that. Read it again.

[LisaL]

17. She is elderly.

[KansDem]

20. True...

The lady deserves some of the blame here. She gave incorrect information to the IRS...the IRS didn't verify it. Is the woman in trouble for providing incorrect information to the IRS?

And they want to send the man to jail? He was facing foreclosure; faced with that reality, I might have done the same.

It's easy to preach virtue when your house isn't being taken from you.

And I thought you could keep anything that is sent to you...or is that only in the mail?

[former9thward]

110. No you are not entitled to "keep anything that is sent to you"

That is long settled law. It is just the same if a bank teller makes an error and shows you with a deposit of $10,000 instead of the $100 you actually put in. You don't get to keep the extra $9900 and spend it. If you do you can be prosecuted for theft.

[KansDem]

185. But if the bank teller sent the money to my house?

Why should I be held responsible for someone else's mistake?

It's that kind of mindset that put us in the current national malaise...

[Maru Kitteh]

80. the bank bears no burden whatsoever - don't know where you get that.

It's not the banks business to investigate what kinds of deposits you are expecting, or to tell you how and when you may spend your money.

The man spent the money on personal gain, and he is in the wrong.

[Fumesucker]

21. Drunken sailors pay off their student loans?

I learn something new nearly every day on DU..

[JVS]

52. It's sad that a man is being pilloried for escaping 2 onerous debts

It's like if the headline were "Fine upstanding glutton drops sandwich, crafty beggar uses it to feed her children"

[Liberal_in_LA]

71. wow.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

75. +1 --

this could have been settled out of court ... sad.

[DBoon]

100. so that's how drunken sailors waste their paychecks

paying off their student loans and keeping their home out of forclosure

And I always thought it was booze and prostitutes

[Lucian]

114. Yeah, drunken sailors spend money on hookers, drugs, and alcohol...

not paying off student loans, making mortgage payments to prevent foreclosures, and other various bills.

:eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

[bluestate10]

172. I agree.

I once had a bank error that put an enormous amount of money into my account. I did not spend one penny, reported what I felt was an error. The error was confirmed and my account was adjusted. The money from the error was not mine.

[Zywiec]

5. She could have rejected the offer outright

If someone mistakenly had $45k of your money, and you were elderly, I'm sure you would just let them off the hook.

:eyes:

[Tuesday Afternoon]

28. actually, I probably would ---

can you see your brain when you roll your eyes to the back of your head like that?

[BR_Parkway]

62. She'd probably get it quicker that way than if he's in jail and can't make payments

doubt the house has any equity so she probably can't collect on the debt

[Tuesday Afternoon]

68. naturally, but don't let common sense get in their way around here.

[dsc]

6. yeah how dare that woman want her money back

[Tuesday Afternoon]

38. how dare the woman NOT pay attention to her acct number

dumb! dumb! dumb!

[Maru Kitteh]

81. The woman made an honest mistake, the man committed a dishonest action.

[dsc]

126. she made an honest mistake

If he had waited say a month and started to spend the money I would have a bit more sympathy for him and a bit less for her. But he waited a grand total of one day, one measley day. that shows to me that he knew he was doing wrong and didn't give a rats ass.

[NNN0LHI]

9. They got him over a barrel

They can take his house, his car and his freedom in one fell swoop if they want to. And then sell his stuff for pennies on the dollar at an IRS auction and bill him for the balance when he gets out of jail.

Hope he has a good lawyer. That is essential.

Don

[Tuesday Afternoon]

57. if he needs help with that, after all this shit on here. I will gladly donate

to his defense.

[Maru Kitteh]

84. The man committed a wrong, but I would be happy to help him too.

And I would hope his community, friends and family will help him too.

From a purely emotional standpoint, jail seems way too harsh - but then again, the man did take $45K that did not belong to him. It matters not one whit whether he spent that on hookers and beer or polio vaccines for children in India. It was not his to spend.

I hope all parties involved can reach a peaceable agreement.

[Zywiec]

10. LOL

Love the edit

:rofl:

[Liberal_in_LA]

14. me too! makes those of who responded look like jackasses. lol

[Tuesday Afternoon]

16. because you are.

:rofl:

[Liberal_in_LA]

18. .

:P

[Zywiec]

22. Right, deleting entirely what you wrote makes you a genius

Obviously they were embarrassed by what they said and removed it.

Or is there another reason for deleting a comment completely?

:shrug:

[Tuesday Afternoon]

25. because, if I continue to tell you what I really think about your assessment

of this situation, the whole subthread would be deleted. would you prefer that?

[JVS]

54. LOL

:thumbsup:

[snooper2]

174. Aw damn, what did ya right? It was first post had to have been good!

:)

[scheming daemons]

2. He knew the money wasn't his... and he should have known the owner would be coming for it

If all of a sudden $110K shows up in your account, and you know it isn't yours... then spending it *IS* theft.

[Bunny]

3. It's pretty hard to feel sorry for the guy.

Unless he's ten years old, he had to have realized that it was a mistake, and he wouldn't be allowed to keep the money. But meanwhile, why is the elderly woman getting a $110K refund from the IRS? That's a monster refund. :shrug:

[Aerows]

8. That's what I'm wondering!

I'm trying to figure out under what circumstance you'd be getting that much, unless you had tax writeoffs galore.

[plumbob]

11. Yes, not one of our seniors on cat food.

And uncaring enough about the money to provide the wrong account number for the refund.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

30. look, I feel sorry for her ,,, she may have to give up her weekly manicure.

meanwhile, who cares about his kids and a roof over their head.

[FLPanhandle]

33. Well, loan him some of your money if you care so much

Maybe even give the IRS his bank account # for your return.

You seem to be fast to spend the old woman's money on him. Why not spend some of your own money? Can't afford $110K? Well, send him what you can afford.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

35. was not my mistake that led to this. --

it was HERS.

she has some responsiblity here, no?

she gave the IRS his bank account #

[FLPanhandle]

41. Well, we answered your question.

"Who cares about his kids and a roof over their head." Answer: Not you!

As for responsibility, she accidentally gave them her old bank account number. Horrors! She should be supporting him now for that!

Don't feign sympathy for him when you've shown you have none.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

50. I have my own problems ... want to help me?

I would have accepted this man's offer ... and I said as much above.

sympathy. my sweet ass.

where is yours?

[FLPanhandle]

56. "was not my mistake that led to this"

Sorry, according to your logic, it wasn't my mistake that led to your problems. Therefore, no help.

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[kiranon]

99. That may be her life's savings and it won't go far it she is sick. Hope

everyone is in good mental health when they are elderly. Many are not. n/t

[NashVegas]

146. It's Not Her Life Savings - It's ONE YEAR's Income Tax Refund!

If she can find $110k in tax loopholes, she can come up with the right account to authorize it to.

[nessa]

178. Not necessarily. It could have been the result of receiving a one...

time lump some of money. A settlement, the estate of a lost loved one, cashing in some time of retirement. Maybe this year she moved her entire retirement from one type of account to another and the IRS incorrectly taxed it.

There are a number of scenarios that would allow this to be a significant chunk of all the money she has.

All refunds are not the result of one year's worth of ongoing income, especially with an older person. It does not mean she is necessarily making that kind of money year after year.

[dkf]

23. I'm torn on this...

I imagine the woman isn't in so bad shape if she can get a $110,000 refund so part of this sounds greedy in that the monthly payments he offered weren't enough. But if she agreed to that, has she turned herself into a collector? That's kind of a bummer too.

[FLPanhandle]

19. +1

It is a monster refund, but it was her's.

The guy was an idiot.

[NashVegas]

141. Funny How No One Wants to Think Too Hard About That, Isn't It?

All too busy screaming about the bad guy who ripped off the poor elderly woman who managed to find $110k that the gov't owes her** but couldn't find the right bank account number.

** have to wonder: what kind of income does someone have, what kind of write offs they are using to get back a sum like that.

[Bunny]

148. Actually, I was only mildly curious about that.

The fact is, the guy did rip her off - he spent money that he knew wasn't his. Her income is not relevant to his actions.

[Maru Kitteh]

170. 500 logic points to Bunny. Congratulations. Next round Alex.

Seriously. I'm starting to think we should pass out logic points on DU, as so little of it as seen anymore, it is noteworthy.

[plumbob]

13. It would be nice if any of the crooked ass bankers who have stolen

BILLIONS would spend a little time in jail.

But nope, we have to cover them.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

76. billions ...

~sigh~

[FLPanhandle]

24. He should have just invested the money

Then he could have kept the profits from the investment after paying back the old woman.

[AmericaIsGreat]

26. Nah

She would be legally entitled to all of it. It's money made off of her money; thus, also her money.

[joshcryer]

171. Indeed, that's what I would've done.

That money would've doubled rather quickly and the old lady would've given me a nice interest free loan.

[struggle4progress]

27. Who could have predicted spending $110K deposited in error would upset the IRS?

What's next? Prosecuting a fellow for running off with a dame's purse when she puts it down for a minute? Sending a guy to jail for borrowing a car when somebody leaves the keys in the ignition?

It's creeping fascism; that's what it is! :grr:

[virgogal]

29. He's an ass!

[stevenleser]

34. I happen to disagree with all of you.

If someone deposits money in my bank account or ships a package to my house and I did not ask for it or make it happen in any way, I think that it should be mine. The law may be against me here, but I think that is what is fair.

Actually, I think the part about packages being shipped to your home is correct. I think it is yours at that point. Any legal eagles here please feel free to correct me on that. Interesting that a banking error should be different.

Whether you give some or all back due to your morals/conscience should be up to you. Personally, I would have given half the money back, perhaps even 3/4s of the money.

The fact that $110,000 ended up in his account was not his fault, but once it happened, it was in HIS account. It should have been his.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

36. woot!

:applause:

[Liberal_in_LA]

42. tuesday afternoon leaves her purse in the restroom. Finders keepers!!!

same logic

[Tuesday Afternoon]

46. and it has happened. I keep up with my purse now. same principle

the man is not totally blameless here but she is not totally innocent either. she fucked up.

[Liberal_in_LA]

49. wow. No expectation that your fellow human return your purse?

[Tuesday Afternoon]

51. expectation ...it would be nice but, NO i do not expect it.

[Liberal_in_LA]

61. too bad. I've returned every purse I've found in the restroom.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

65. well then, why didn't you find mine ? which, oh by the way, has your name

monogrammed on it...

[JVS]

48. That's how it works already. Evidently it's only not finders keepers for the rich.

[stevenleser]

63. No, its not the same thing. But nice try. n/t

[LisaL]

37. If the money has been wrongly deposited into your account,it's

not yours.

[stevenleser]

82. I say it is. n/t

[Maru Kitteh]

88. so you would be both wrong, and in jail

[stevenleser]

108. Oh, I'm not wrong, it's my opinion. And I wouldnt do it if it was illegal, but thanks for your help

:eyes:

[Maru Kitteh]

166. No, you have feelings to be sure, but your

opinion would really only be applicable as to whether or not you believe well-established law regarding the money is just. The fact that the money does not belong to you is not changed a single bit by your feelings about the law.

[Liberal_in_LA]

39. no way!!!! The Fed ex accidently delivers my flat screen to your porch, no way is it yours

By your logic, you park you car in my driveway by mistake, it's mine. your wallet falls from your pocket, it belongs to the finder. OMG.

[LisaL]

45. Exactly.

Just because a mistake was made, doesn't entitle the man to money that are not his.

[JVS]

47. Your beef should be with FedEx, not with Steven

[Tuesday Afternoon]

53. difference being ...the address on it is correct because the person that ordered it

put down (by mistake, mind you) the wrong address. It was correctly delivered.

[stevenleser]

70. And that is the distinction that I should have been more clear about. If its addressed to me

its mine. Or should be.

[stevenleser]

67. I disagree with you about everything except the car and the wallet. n/t

[Riftaxe]

92. +1

Although considering the insurance on my beater is probably worth more then vehicle, perhaps someone who disagrees with you will let me know where their driveway is...oh wait that would be considered criminal fraud too! :P

[localroger]

98. Not sure about FedEx, but if USPS does the TV is mine

USPS actually used to run ads to let people know about this years ago; I remember one featuring a numberof actors unpacking oddly mismatched products, like an Eskimo pulling a reciprocating fan out of the box, and then smiling because they knew the windfall was theirs. The idea is that you shouldn't face a sanction of having to find the real owner and return something that lands in your lap at random by mistake, and that the sender and shipper (and, in the case of something really expensive, presumably the insurance company) will take up the slack and all will have incentive to keep such mistakes from happening in the first place.

The banking industry of course operates by different principles but we once had a similar mistake in our favor when a check for $4,000 was recorded as $40,000, and in researching it we found that if the money stayed in our account for a certain period of time, it would indeed become ours. We reported the error though because we were worried about checks written against the $4,000 not being covered if the error was discovered and not corrected correctly, losing the funds entirely.

This situation is almost inhumanly cruel, expecting someone who is facing so much loss to simply swallow hard and ignore the solution to all of his problems when it lands in his account as if by magic is completely unrealistic. He should be prosecuted, yes, because it is against the law and people should know that, but the jury should also refuse to convict him because they are human.

[stevenleser]

151. You said it so much better than I did, and...

Regarding the shipping of stuff to one's house, as I noted elsewhere in the thread, the point I was trying to make was if it is sent TO YOU, addressed either to you explicitly, or to your address with no individual listed (Occupant/Resident/etc.), it should be yours for the keeping.

I regard my banking account as my space, my stuff. If you put something in it, it's mine. The law may not agree, at least for now, but that is what I feel. If I mislead someone into putting funds into my account, that's one thing. But if you put funds in their on your own, the you ought to be subject to my good graces as to whether and how much you get back.

[JVS]

44. Holy shit! I agree with you.

[PoliticAverse]

58. The law disagrees with you. And is willing to back that up with jail time...

http://www.walletpop.com/2009/12/09/bank-deposit-error-in-your-favor-give-it-back/

[stevenleser]

69. In the case of the bank account, obviously. n/t

[JoePhilly]

74. And I bet the neighbor kids never let their ball land in your yard.

[Liberal_in_LA]

77. yup

[stevenleser]

79. Not the same thing. n/t

[DRoseDARs]

85. Someone's insulin lands on your porch, you keep it, they die as result, you get charged with murder.

Drug runners accidentally deposit their ill-gotten monies in your account, you keep it, you get charged with drug trafficking (assuming the drug cartel doesn't get to you and your family first). Fair's fair.

...

Or, one could try NOT be willfully stupid like this guy was.

[kiranon]

101. Neither the package nor the money belong to those inadvertantly

receiving them. A honest person returns them and it is the law. n/t

[lumberjack_jeff]

105. Keeping shit that doesn't belong to you isn't a slippery slope. It's the shithole at the bottom. n/t

[Raine]

116. The package is yours IF it has your name and address on it

whether you ordered it or not, IT IS NOT yours if it has someone's else name or address on it and was wrongly/mistakenly delivered to you.

edit: changed one word.

[Ikonoklast]

180. It's been settled law for many a year, and called "Unjust Enrichment".

You cannot use another's property given to you by a third party by mistake.

If the UPS guy drops off a package at your house by mistake, and you keep it, you are guilty of Unjust Enrichment, as you are not the proper owner.

[Incitatus]

190. So if the IRS accidentally deposits your refund in someone elses account

they should keep it and you won't want it back or press charges?

[Art_from_Ark]

192. The Better Business Bureau used to run public service commercials

on the radio in the '70s and '80s (don't know if they still do). One of the commercials stated that if you got some unsolicited package that was addressed to you, you didn't have to send it back.

But at the same time, the conventional wisdom was that if your name was John Doe and you got a package addressed to Joe Blow, you did not have a legal claim to the package.

[JVS]

40. Jury nullification is in order.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

43. I garan-goddam-tee you IF I was getting back that much money

you bet your sweet ass my bank account number would be checked and checked and checked again before I sent it off.

[Violet_Crumble]

103. People are allowed to make mistakes. I've made a similar one with my tax return...

Luckily in my case, my tax return went to an account I'd closed only a few months ago, and I'd forgotten to update my records for my tax return. So my refund got returned by the bank, and when I rang to find out where my refund was, I got told of my slip up and they got my new account details and put the money in my new account. It was a fair bit smaller refund than in the OP, but if some dishonest wanker had my money end up in their account and they spent it, you betcha I'd want it back and I wouldn't put up with any shit. That money wasn't his to spend and he knew it. Similar things have happened where a bank teller made a massive blunder and mistakenly put $10 million in someone's account. They swiftly packed their bags and fled the country and drained the account before the bank realised the error. Should everyone feel sorry for them because prior to that they ran a petrol station and were struggling to keep their heads above water? I feel about as sorry for them as I do for the idiots who took advantage of a glitch that happened throughout Sydney affecting all ATMs (not sure what they're called in the US) where people could withdraw more than was in their accounts by driving from machine to machine and withdrawing the maximum they could from each machine. The bank had records of the transactions and went after people to get any overpayments back. Ones where there was a clear intent to take money that didn't belong to someone like the one I described above were prosecuted. As with the moron in the OP who spent money that he knew wasn't his, I'll play all of those dishonest types the world's smallest fucking violin...

[Tuesday Afternoon]

162. for the past several years, when I file, the IRS has sent me either more or less

of the amount that I have filed originally. Sometimes they say I owe them more, sometimes they send more than I was expecting. So you see, shit happens. I would not think twice if a larger amount was deposited in my account than I was expecting. I don't feel sorry for this guy but, neither do I feel sorry for this woman. Shit happened and it needs to be rectified in a way that causes the least amount of problems for the rest of society.

The woman could have been gracious about this whole matter. Of course she doesn't HAVE to be gracious and so here we are

.................

keyboard jockeys second guessing about details that are not fully stipulated.

She has legal recourse, true.

legal recourse is one thing. grace is another thing altogether. The woman can have all the legal recourse she can afford to buy. As for graciousness, in my opinion, she has none.

[PoliticAverse]

55. At least do a little googling before spending the money...

http://www.walletpop.com/2009/12/09/bank-deposit-error-in-your-favor-give-it-back/

[JVS]

59. In this thread: working stiffs advocate against their own interests

[Liberal_in_LA]

64. it's in no one's interest to allow people to keep money deposited in error.

That's a recipe for anarchy

[JVS]

66. Yes, we all saw how the game of Monopoly fell apart whenever someone drew the...

bank error in your favor card.

[stevenleser]

73. It's in the receiver's interest. n/t

[Politicalboi]

72. He probably didn't know it belonged to anyone other than the IRS

I myself wouldn't report it, but I wouldn't spend it either till and if there was a mistake found. The IRS will get it back one way or the other. I mean it's the IRS after all. They aren't suppose to make these mistakes.

[pitohui]

93. he knew it didn't belong to him

i had a similar mistake happen to me, i reported it, but i'm not a thief

it doesn't matter if he persuaded himself that the victim of his theft was unsympathetic (the IRS) as opposed to an elderly woman with failing powers who screwed up a number, which i assure you is something that elderly women screw up ALL the time...the bank should have double checked that the name and the number matched but a large percentage of the time they don't bother

the woman made a mistake that is pretty much unavoidable, you have elderly people banking, there will be x number of these mistakes

the bank made a mistake that they could have avoided by double checking

the man was just a fucking thief

i had no job and a lot of problems in my life when the money was placed in my account but you know what? i don't steal and i don't respect those who do...

[kiranon]

102. Agree. n/t

[Iggo]

188. Aaaah.

Thanks for the fresh air.

:thumbsup:

[JVS]

78. So, are the lenders being arrested for accepting stolen property? Do they have to pay back?

[pitohui]

94. you're not allowed to receive stolen property

if i was the victim, this where i would be going next if the man had already spent all the money, because it wasn't his to spend

normally one has a choice of returning the stolen property if one received it without knowing it but you never get to keep it, think of all the nazi stolen art lawsuits that have gone on over the years, even if you didn't know your granddad stole it...you don't get to keep it

i think if she has a decent lawyer, the lenders who received the stolen property will have to return it, not that i'm a lawyer or anything but in most states this is the law, isn't it?

[Rex]

83. Sorry, but it was their mistake...that he is in jail is a travesty of justice.

Fuck the IRS...er, hey someone just knocked on my frontdoor...brb.

[Riftaxe]

89. And poor bernie Madoff is just a

misunderstood soul in your eyes? Afterall it's his investors that just made a mistake... :puke:

[stevenleser]

152. You compare this guy to Bernie Madoff? Let me guess, you failed logic in high school and college nt

[Maru Kitteh]

173. No. The IRS did not make a mistake.

[Warren DeMontague]

87. He should demand a jury trial.

I have trouble believing he would be convicted.

[Philippine expat]

90. Whats your point?

He broke the law he goes to jail plus he repays, sounds fair to me

[pitohui]

91. it's obviously he stole the money AND knew he stole the money

i think i can talk because i had a like amt of money put accidently in my bank account about 20 years ago

i knew it wasn't my money, i went to the bank, they assured me they "never" made such mistakes but after further investigations they found out they'd made a HUGE one

this guy saw the money in his account, apparently assumed that there is only a one year statute of limitations for theft, waited a year and a day and took the money for his own use

he is a thief and the charges are correct

the elderly are not our prey to be jumped on and robbed blind every time they make a small mistake, one day you too will be old and you will not want to live in that world, i assure you

i am aware of at least one prosecution in louisiana for a case like this, where the woman just kept the 6 figure sum placed in her account by mistake, how do people figure to get away with it? do they really think a bank will lose that kind of cash forever????

as for the elderly, it should be incumbent on banks to double check their deposit slips, reason, you can't see the fucking print (age related farsightedness) and macular degeneration (pretty much can't read at all), your handwriting goes to shit (mine has already and i'm still in middle aged) and high rates of dementia (1/3 to 1/2 of all people over 85 have dementia symptoms) -- banks should not be playing "gotcha," they should be double checking each deposit to make sure the name and number matches! sheesh, we have an aging society, is it really THAT top secret what aging does to the eyes, the hands, and the mind?

[amuse bouche]

95. What I want to know, is

How did an elderly woman get a check for 110k from the IRS?

[JVS]

96. She's rich.

[Violet_Crumble]

104. How do you know? Do you work for the IRS and have inside knowledge of her financial affairs? n/t

[JVS]

106. Yes, I do.

:P

[JVS]

107. How about you tell me how a poor person could conceivably have a $110K refund coming?

"Sorry ma'am, we accidentally withheld 11 times your annual income from your paychecks" doesn't sound too likely.

[Violet_Crumble]

109. I asked you to tell us, as yr the one claiming she's rich...

It's very clear you have no more knowledge of what her financial affairs are than any of the rest of us. I got several thousand a few years ago in one payments from the govt. Without knowing my financial situation, you would have called me rich, which of course I wasn't. When it comes to elderly people getting an income tax return, I know when the time comes for me to retire, my last tax return will probably be a fair bit larger than the one in the OP. Am I going to be rich? Not unless I win the lottery in the meantime...

[JVS]

112. IRS and check from the government are two different things.

Given the amount of the refund, we are able to deduce a bit. We know that she has overpaid taxes by $110,000. Since she is alive, we can deduce that overpaying by that large quantity has not killed her. We can therefore deduce that her income over the period the refund covers was significantly higher than $110,000. Furthermore, most refunds are quite a bit smaller than the amount actually paid in total taxes, so we can deduce that $110,000 is actually less than the entire amount she paid in over the time period, this implying a higher level of income than merely more that $110,000.

[Violet_Crumble]

Not in this case they weren't...

I'm pretty sure that unless you've got inside knowledge of this elderly woman's tax affairs, yr just making assumptions. Also, I'm not sure what any of this has to do with the fact that the guy in the OP spent money that didn't belong to him. Are you arguing that if someone gets over a certain amount from the govt, then it's tough shit to them if someone else spends their money?

[JVS]

124. Your profile says Australia, do you deal with the IRS?

I'm arguing that if someone puts their money in someone else's pocket or bank account, then they're fucking dumbasses and don't deserve help. It's fairly simple. If you want your money, pay attention to where you send it.

Amuse asked a question of how she got a refund, and I answered that she's rich, which is true considering the massive amounts of money she's dealing with to generate that kind of a refund.

[Violet_Crumble]

128. I pay taxes, if that's what yr wondering...

And I'm telling you the fucking dishonest wanker who spends money that doesn't belong to them just because it magically appears in their account deserves prison time and no sympathy. I've made a similar mistake as the woman in the OP where my tax return was to be sent to one of my bank accounts I'd closed. That doesn't make me a fucking dumbarse who doesn't deserve my refund. It makes me someone who was forgetful and in a hurry, and who tends to break into a cold sweat when doing my tax return. Spending money that doesn't belong to you (that's a generic 'you' and not aimed at you personally, btw) is against the law, whether in the US or here. If a large amount appears in yr account, don't spend it if you don't want to end up in trouble. It's fairly simple. Spend yr own money, not someone elses...

[JVS]

134. No, that's not what I'm wondering, congratulations on your deadeye incorrect conclusion jumping.

What I'm getting at is "How familiar are you with US taxes and the way they are collected and refunds are made?" I'm ignoring the rest of what you wrote because I don't care what you have to say.

[Violet_Crumble]

145. Did you miss the word 'if' in 'if that's what yr wondering'?

That's not jumping to conclusions.

I'm not familiar with the intricacies of the US taxation system, which is why I asked the question I did. I'm getting the impression from some things I've read in this thread that just like over here, if someone gets a large return, that doesn't automatically mean they're wealthy....

That's nice and all about you telling me yr ignoring what I'm saying coz you don't care what I say. Clearly that exchange below where you made the assumption that because I'll get a large tax return the year I retire I'm reasonably wealthy has shown everyone in this thread that I've got no idea what I'm talking about when it comes to my financial situation, and my heartfelt thanks goes out to you for correcting me on my claim that I'm struggling a bit financially and exist from pay to pay. If some dishonest wanker gets my tax return in their account and spends it, bad luck to me! ;)

[tammywammy]

111. She could have sold stocks at a loss

She could be a small business owner and this year's profits were much less than the previous, hence a refund of pre-paid taxes throughout the year.
Maybe she moved retirement around and mistakenly paid capital gains on it, and that's being refunded.

"The Rich" usually have better accountants and wouldn't overpay their taxes by $110k

[JVS]

113. Nevetheless if she had the money to pre-pay that much, she had wealth.

If I were as inclined to be as harsh with her as people are with the guy into whose account she sent the money, I'd say in such a circumstance why should I feel sorry for her for pissing her business away.

Also, even if it's mistakenly paying capital gains, she's a woman of significant means to be able to accidentally come up with such money.

[Violet_Crumble]

120. So because I'll get a large tax return when I retire, you'll assume I'm wealthy...

You'll be very wrong.

Also, she didn't do anything dishonest or wrong. The idiot who spent her money did. I don't need to feel sorry for anyone in the OP, as it's all looking like it's going to turn out fairly with her getting her money and him getting time in prison...

[JVS]

122. If you have a retirement, you are relatively wealthy.

[Violet_Crumble]

132. No, I'm not wealthy. I exist from pay to pay...

Most working Australians will retire once they get to between 55-65. Are you saying all working Australians are wealthy? I'm not, that's for sure. I'm probably going to be okay when I retire because my massive mortgage will have been paid off by then (and not with someone else's money!), but anyone who'd call me wealthy or rich has no idea what they're talking about...

[nessa]

168. Could be multiple years, could be from the estate of a loved one...

It may very well be almost all the money she has.

[Xithras]

194. Oh, I don't know. I can think of a simple scenario.

Elderly woman. Knew a bit about real estate once upon a time. Sold her home of many decades and moved into an apartment to help fund her retirement account. Paid the capital gains taxes she thought she owed. IRS informed her that the law changed in the late 90's, and that elderly homeowners now get the standard $250,000 capital gains exemption on real estate sales instead of the old $125,000 "retirement exemption". IRS cut her a check to refund her overpayment.

If you don't keep up with the tax laws, it's pretty easy to screw your taxes up when you're selling off an expensive asset like a house.

[Lizzie Poppet]

143. So what?

Doesn't mean the guy isn't a thief.

[JVS]

150. It was the answer to a question.

[Poll_Blind]

97. The key here is the difference between lost property and abandoned property.

People who think he should have been able to keep the money, or keep (whatever) in a similar situation are perceiving the environment in which the money was found to be one where the money was "abandoned", essentially. But it was really "lost".

PB

[Edweird]

115. So he does a little time (4 years is the max - it'll be a lot less) and get out debt free.

All things considered that may not be such a bad deal.

[Lucian]

117. Yeah, the money was deposited in his account, it should be his.

Just like if a ball goes into my yard, it's mine once it hits the ground.

This is BS.

[cherokeeprogressive]

121. So I'm jogging past your house and my wallet drops out of my shorts...

When it hits the ground, it bounces once... twice... then rolls five feet to wind up inside your property line.

Now the money in it is yours, the pictures in it are yours, and the available credit on my credit cards is yours.

I guess my driver's license number and social security number are now yours as well.

Fucking loony.

Oh, and that neighbor who never gave the ball back when we were kids? Her flowerbeds got pissed in every time we were out after the street lights came on, which admittedly wasn't very often. And don't even ask me about her cat, but I'm pretty sure I know why she had to go to her back yard and calm the dog down so often though. Funny how she never noticed he had been squirted with her own hose. But, she simply yelled at him to shut up anyway, it's the kind of person she was.

[Lucian]

158. Fucking loony, but I'm right.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

193. So you tortured her pets to get even with her?

What's that they say about Jeffrey Dahmer?

[Raine]

118. My cousin mistakenly had $45,000 put in her account she KNEW it wasn't hers

and didn't touch it. The rightful owner got it back and she remained out of trouble. No way in the hell the guy didn't know it was not his money, spending it was out and out theft.

[cherokeeprogressive]

119. No better than a thief. He belongs where he's at and every penny he gets over and above

what's necessary to keep him and his family out of the street, clothed, and fed should go to the woman whose money it was.

He knew it wasn't his. I'm blown away by the notion that when the Tax Fairy makes a mistake and puts over a HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS in your bank account by mistake, it should be yours.

I guess there are plenty of DU'ers whose house I would hate to accidentally leave my wallet at. I'm wondering if the DU'er upthread who advocates that even mis-delivered packages should be his would claim that the credit available on the credit cards in my wallet should belong to him too if I left it there.

I swear to fucking Dog this place blows me away sometimes.

[NashVegas]

123. If She Was Getting Back $110k In Taxes, She Didn't Exactly Need the Cash

It was her mistake the money went to the wrong place. She should have sucked it up and accepted his offer.

How many off-shore tax shelters do you reckon she has, to get a refund like that?

How many checks did she write to non-profits to get a refund like that?


How can anyone possibly imagine that anyone receiving a refund check like that wasn't using/abusing loopholes?

I wish some outlet would publish her name.

[FLPanhandle]

125. Wait a minute. If she didn't "exactly need the cash", then it's okay to steal from her?

:eyes:

If it's wrong for someone to take a $500 tax refund, then it's still wrong for someone to take a $100,000 tax refund.

[NashVegas]

130. He Didn't Steal, and She Should Have Sucked Up the Temporary Loss

When she listed that account and routing number, she approved the money to be sent there. Her mistake.

She could obviously well-afford to take a 40k hit if she's getting back $110k in US treasury money and there's no reason in the world not to accept his offer to return what hadn't yet been spent and make monthly payments.

[FLPanhandle]

133. "He didn't steal"

I think the law, the courts, the old woman, and most others disagree with you on that.

She used an old account number, it was a honest and simple mistake. There is no need for her or anyone else to have to "suck it up".

[NashVegas]

139. She Authorized the Money to Go to That Account. The Mistake Is Hers

People make mistakes all the time and are forced to accept the consequences, no matter how large. Being an "old woman" doesn't make her an exception.

[FLPanhandle]

144. The mistake was spending money that didn't belong to him

and he is "forced to accept the consequences, no matter how large".

Like I said, the law, the courts, the old woman, and most others disagree with your assessment. That's fine, we all have opinions.

Just don't try to do something similar and go into court with your rationale. You'll be as effective convincing a judge as you have been convincing me.

BTW, her being "old" doesn't matter, nor does her being "rich".

[Lizzie Poppet]

136. Yes he did. Obviously.

The money wasn't his and he knew it.

Duh...

[NashVegas]

142. She Found $110k In Tax Loopholes But Couldn't Find the Right Bank Account Number?

to authorize?

wake up :nuke:

[Lizzie Poppet]

147. Irrelevant.

If frailty make one an acceptable target for predation, pray you never become old and weak.

It's simple: the guy knowingly spent money that didn't belong to him. That makes him a criminal. Period. End of story.

[NashVegas]

149. Ooh, Now She's Elderly And Frail

And yet, instead of accepting a sincere offer of $65k up front, and the rest in monthly payments, this frail prey managed to get the local DA to bump up breaking a misdemeanor law** to grand theft.

** and I happen to be of the opinion that a good lawyer can successfully argue to the court the money transfer was authorized, and therefor not lost.

[Lizzie Poppet]

153. "Now?" R.I.F.

The cited article states that she's elderly. You did read the article, right?

Well, perhaps not...since it also makes no mention of her convincing the DA of anything. She rejected the offer because the monthly payment amount was too low for her liking...but the article isn't specific about the amount. What if it was so low that she wouldn't reasonably be expected to see it paid off in whatever time remains to her? And do you have anything but your own speculation to back up your claim that the offer was "sincere?" The offer came from a thief. That's one big fat strike against its sincerity from the get-go.

I suspect we'll know soon enough if your speculation about what the guy's lawyers might be able to argue has any merit. I'm betting it doesn't, and the guy is fucked.

[Obamaforthewin]

164. Are you serious?

Are you so determined to take from the "rich" and give to the "needy" that blatant theft is OK with you? You have no idea what the situation is with the elderly woman, at all. This is a young college educated man who stole money that did not belong to him. To say that she should accept some sort of payment plan is fucking ridiculous.

I can GUARANTEE that if YOUR tax refund went into the wrong account because you made an honest mistake, YOU would not be fine with someone paying their mortgage and student loan with it.

[palmtree guy]

160. horse shit he stole it

the minute he spent the first penny of it!!

[JVS]

127. prepare to get jumped on for pointing that out

[cherokeeprogressive]

129. And rightly so. No one here knows her situation. Everyone here knows he's a thief though for

taking what was never his in the first place.

DU'ers supporting outright thievery... who would have thunk it. If this thievery is okay, then all thievery is okay. Even the thieving bankers and mortgage lenders should be getting a pass.

[JVS]

131. We know 2 things about her situation. She's getting $110,000 from the IRS and she's too dumb...

to put the right account number.

[cherokeeprogressive]

135. Which I'm assuming you'll say both make her an acceptable target for Grand Larceny. n/t

[NashVegas]

137. She Authorized the Money to Go to That Account. He Owns the Account

California has a law for "misappropriation of lost property" but 65k is enough to hire a lawyer to convince a jury the money was more properly abandoned, if anything.

[Lizzie Poppet]

138. No, we know nothing of the sort.

Elderly people make mistakes like that. It's no reflection on their intelligence.

[NashVegas]

140. You're Right. She Might Simply Have Had Money In So Many Different Accounts, She Forgot Which One ..

... to report to the IRS.

Why, she must have been positively senile. Hey, gee. If she was so off on the numbers for that account, I wonder how accurate her reported income / expenses are?

[Stevenmarc]

156. Or she might of just ok'd the account on file and didn't notice that it was the old account.

You're under some sort of assumption that this woman is rolling on dough simply because of the size of the refund while the fact is that she's elderly would make me think that this was more of a problem with how an estate was handled and you don't have to have that huge an estate to have that kind of refund situation arise especially when it appears that this woman isn't all that fiscally swift.

[Beaverhausen]

154. I gave the gas company the wrong bank account number last month

I forgot to include the first 5 zeros. People make mistakes.

edit- I'll be 52 next month. Not elderly.

[nessa]

169. It could be from multiple years, it could be from an estate...

It could almost all the money she has.

[Cid_B]

177. Not surprised....

Some folks here are OK with walking into a rich person's house and taking their stuff... They must have stolen it... They can take the hit.... yada yada yada.. bunch of fuckin thieves...

[Lucian]

159. Agreed, on all points.

But I'm "fucking loony" for saying something like that. :eyes:

[NashVegas]

183. Loon Loon Loon

Still, it's entertaining. To see some people write about it, our victim fell prey to the traveling salesman who took advantage of her advanced age, her frailty ... maybe he even ran her over with a car after refusing to help her get across the street.

[Logical]

155. He knew he was stealing the money. Sounds like a fair arrest. n-t

[hadrons]

157. He shouldn't have spent the money ....

I can understand keeping quiet and keeping the interest being earned on it, but he should have known that money wasn't his.

[Name removed]

161. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Maru Kitteh]

175. No shit. One could see them laying in wait for someone to use their driveway to turn around,

throwing out a spike strip and then dancing around the car when the owner walks off to get help and chanting "it's mine! it's mine! You left it in my driveway so now it's mine!."

[Name removed]

182. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

186. SO first checkbox it isn't even funny.

[DeadEyeDyck]

165. he should have used it as leverage to daytrade

With $110K, it is easy to realize 1 to 3K a day in sonme very low risk, high-volume trades. By the time they caught up with him, he could have make $100k and had to original to return.

[Maru Kitteh]

176. Since the money was hers, any money made off of her money would also be her money.

If my cow accidentally wanders into your field and drops a calf, the cow still belongs to me, and you don't get to keep the calf.

[Incitatus]

191. If the owner was aware the stock trades happened, of course.

[inna]

179. and banksters got away with billions and billions - and more power than ever so

they can fuck us up even more this time around. :nuke: what a country.

[BlueCheese]

181. This seems like a clear case of right and wrong.

Morally, the money doesn't belong to him. I'm guessing that it legally doesn't belong to him either.

As for why the woman would be getting a $110 K refund--well, maybe someone died? That's the first thing that came to my mind...

[CBGLuthier]

184. He could do many years in prison BUT if his student loan is PAID off

He will still come out ahead.

[Iggo]

187. He stole it the minute he started spending it.

And he knows it.

[bluedigger]

189. These people are heartless!

Dude was probably at the 7-11, checking his balance, to see if he could fill up the Prius, before he moved into it. Holy Moly! Manna from Heaven! Beau coup $ in the account. Dude filled up, went home, wrote some checks, and solved his problems. Impulsive? Yes. Criminal. Nah. He didn't know it belonged to some sweet little poor/rich old dumb-ass lady from Pasadena.

If I was him, I'd have my lawyer counter-sue, for handling fees. 40% seems about right.