Glenn Greenwald: The inhumane conditions of Bradley Manning's detention

[maddezmom]

Bradley Manning, the 22-year-old U.S. Army Private accused of leaking classified documents to WikiLeaks, has never been convicted of that crime, nor of any other crime. Despite that, he has been detained at the U.S. Marine brig in Quantico, Virginia for five months -- and for two months before that in a military jail in Kuwait -- under conditions that constitute cruel and inhumane treatment and, by the standards of many nations, even torture. Interviews with several people directly familiar with the conditions of Manning's detention, ultimately including a Quantico brig official (Lt. Brian Villiard) who confirmed much of what they conveyed, establishes that the accused leaker is subjected to detention conditions likely to create long-term psychological injuries.

Since his arrest in May, Manning has been a model detainee, without any episodes of violence or disciplinary problems. He nonetheless was declared from the start to be a "Maximum Custody Detainee," the highest and most repressive level of military detention, which then became the basis for the series of inhumane measures imposed on him.

From the beginning of his detention, Manning has been held in intensive solitary confinement. For 23 out of 24 hours every day -- for seven straight months and counting -- he sits completely alone in his cell. Even inside his cell, his activities are heavily restricted; he's barred even from exercising and is under constant surveillance to enforce those restrictions. For reasons that appear completely punitive, he's being denied many of the most basic attributes of civilized imprisonment, including even a pillow or sheets for his bed (he is not and never has been on suicide watch). For the one hour per day when he is freed from this isolation, he is barred from accessing any news or current events programs. Lt. Villiard protested that the conditions are not "like jail movies where someone gets thrown into the hole," but confirmed that he is in solitary confinement, isolated entirely alone in his cell except for the one hour per day he is taken out.

In sum, Manning has been subjected for many months without pause to inhumane, personality-erasing, soul-destroying, insanity-inducing conditions of isolation similar to those perfected at America's Supermax prison in Florence, Colorado: all without so much as having been convicted of anything. And as is true of many prisoners subjected to warped treatment of this sort, the brig's medical personnel now administer regular doses of anti-depressants to Manning to prevent his brain from snapping from the effects of this isolation.

more:http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/12/14/manning/

[xchrom]

1. recommend

[SidDithers]

2. The article is a bit less spectacular than the tweet...nt

Sid

[SpiralHawk]

3. But stunning all the same

Not even close to justice.

[BeFree]

5. It is criminal

Gawd, they are scared of the kid, eh? Wussie ass mofo's are scared shitless of Manning.

[rhett o rick]

181. They are using him as an example as the tyrants they are. nm

[MNBrewer]

4. Change? HOPE?

[glinda]

148. Not so much. answer to this one Obama and your Republican friends.

[City Lights]

6. -1. nt

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

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[Gaedel]

11. Yes

My own personal opinion is that they are afraid:

1. Of suicide

2. Of the general population beating the crap out of him

Either one of these events would set off a world wide sensation.

[msanthrope]

12. The article conveniently forgets Manning's assault of another soldier, and his

fairly strange statements and paranoia---


Ostracized by peers in Baghdad, busted for assaulting a fellow soldier and disdainful of the military's inattention to computer security, the 22-year-old intelligence analyst styled himself a "hactivist."

SNIP

Chera Moore, another childhood friend, described Manning as highly intelligent and helpful. But she said he had "anger issues" and could get furious when people disagreed with him.

SNIP

Manning said he was pending discharge for an "adjustment disorder," according to the chat logs, but Army spokesman Lt. Col. Eric Bloom said Manning wasn't facing discharge when he was detained May 29.

The chats reveal Manning's frustration at being "regularly ignored" at work.

"I've been isolated so long," he wrote. "I just wanted to be nice, and live a normal life ... but events kept forcing me to figure out ways to survive ... smart enough to know what's going on, but helpless to do anything."

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2010/07/06/army_video_whistleblower_angry

[BeFree]

18. heh

Manning just bugs the piss out of you, eh?

[msanthrope]

19. Yes, Service legacies who fuck up and blame their superior officers for their

inability to do their job really do bother me....Bradley Manning, et. al....

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

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[msanthrope]

25. What is cute about a 22 year-old spending the rest of his life in jail?

You may find that cute. I find it a distressing waste of a life.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

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[msanthrope]

23. The Army removed the bolt from his rifle, fearing his mental state--this was BEFORE the leaks

"Records of the chats, which continued over several days, portray a dejected, disillusioned soldier. His long-distance relationship has ended, he's been demoted from specialist to private first class after he struck another soldier and the Army has removed the bolt from his rifle out of concern for his mental state."

Read more from this Tulsa World article at http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20101212_12_A1_CUTLIN691725&allcom=1

That's not a normal person. That is also not a prisoner you give a sheet, or shoelaces to.

[JonLP24]

33. Sounds a lot like me

Though my long distance relationship was very turbulent. I never went to the psychiatrist or anything so I didn't get a recommendation from them to my unit to take my weapon away. I was close so many times to going into a port-o-potti and shooting myself. Luckily I was too much of a coward to do it.

As far as striking someone, if you are with the same people all the time, someone is going to get under your skin. I know people did with me.

[go west young man]

149. Sounds like me too.

I was booted from the Marines back in 88 for striking an NCO.
We all fought all the time. Hell that's what you signed up for.
60 guys cramped up together all the time. There's gonna be
some fights. The military plays that crap down but it happens
all the time. Manning sounds like he was too smart for it.
I spent 4 month in an OKI US brig and got out. 35 days of that
was solitary confinement. Your lawyer is appointed by the
command that is busting you. Your basically screwed under
UCMJ. No real rights. You gave them up when you joined. The
military is a dictatorship after all. Manning is a true patriot in
my book he deserves the Medal of Honor for exposing the lies
we've all been told. And the military would do well to resolve
it's cases in an open court especially as this country continues
to become more Kafkaesque.

[Name removed]

194. Deleted message

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[MNBrewer]

26. None of that justifies the treatment he's receiving.

[RSillsbee]

65. But you'd scream bloody murder

if they put him in general population and he got his ass waxed

[EFerrari]

80. If the military can't keep their prisoners safe, their prisons need to be shut down. n/t

[RSillsbee]

85. If that's true every prison in the world needs to be shut down

On second thought the Army is trying to keep him safe by keeping him out of GP

[EFerrari]

103. Just like "national security" depends on covering up government corruption.

Orwell rolls in his grave.

[Enthusiast]

195. Obviously all prisons

need major reform.

[Statistical]

90. This is how they keep high risk prisoner's safe.

Isolation from the general population.

[MNBrewer]

113. and by preventing them from exercising.

:eyes:

[RSillsbee]

185. I'll grant you that

He should be allowed access to reading material and should be allowed to exercise in his cell if that's what he chooses.

[EFerrari]

121. Subjecting someone to brain damage is not keeping them safe by any standard. n/t

/oops

[MNBrewer]

112. that's not the only alternative, and you KNOW that.

Keep him segregated from the general population, sure, but why deny him the ability to even EXERCISE. Can some one come up with a reasonable explanation for preventing him from exercising? (which, by the way, would help him at least as much with his depression as the antidepressants they're administering to him)

TO repeat, there are more than two alternatives (i.e., continuing with his current treatment vs. putting him in the general population and having him murdered).

[glinda]

150. Anti-depressents + no movement = placing someone is a frozen state where their

mind and body are fighting against each other. Breaking him.

[Catherina]

115. Naw, I'd only do that if it happened to someone as righteous as you. n/t

[sabrina 1]

159. If I were watching the slaughter in Iraq I think I would have some

anger issues with that also. In fact, I would worry more about anyone who did not have issues with what is going on over there. He is far from alone and apparently has a conscience. The guy is a hero. He saw wrong and he tried to do something about it.

His explanation of the brutal, abnormal situation he was in makes perfect sense. And he's far from alone in his feelings about that war. Many other soldiers have echoed his feelings and sadly some of the exploded into violence or suicide. That whole war is one major crime and the wrong people are in jail.

He needs to be protected from the cowards who are clearly terrified we'll find out even more of what they've been up to.

Interesting too that he criticized how they dealt with security. Too bad they didn't listen to him. So he demonstrated how bad it was. That's what the focus should be. He has done them a great favor by exposing how weak their security system is.

[Name removed]

182. Deleted message

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[ljm2002]

54. Well there you go...

...I guess we shouldn't care, because they aren't actually committing physical acts of cruelty -- as far as we know, anyway.

I guess you would be okay with being held for trial in solitary confinement, and not allowed to do anything at all for the 23 hours a day in your cell, for 7 months and counting.

Cruel, unusual, and yes I would call it torture.

[rhett o rick]

180. Once again siding with the tyrants. nm

[molly77]

196. Also , the progressive websites have moved WikiLeaks

news to a back story. Just read that in a comment at The Guardian. Don't know if the NYTimes is still covering or not. But they never even came close to the coverage in The Guardian.US Media is "state media".

[Bluenorthwest]

202. You know, Sid, the President claims GLBT people should not

have equal rights due to his Christian faith, but that faith explicitly teaches that the treatment given to prisoners is not just equal to, but is the same as treatment given to the Christ himself. That is, what they do to Manning, they do to Jesus. According to Jesus, that is.
So how hypocritical can a human be and not simply pop from the pressure? According to his faith, Obama is responsible for the mistreatment of Jesus Christ, daily. And yet, he claims without any form of Biblical support, that he himself, Obama, is 'sanctified by God' in ways that others are not. Yet according to the faith, he is subjecting the Christ to punitive and inhumane treatment. Jesus also said, you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free.
Seems to me, Obama is in huge breach of this faith he affects, this religion he uses when convenient, to rationalize his personal neurotic prejudices.
It becomes difficult to take seriously a man who is so deeply hypocritical and sanctimonious.

[northoftheborder]

8. All of you should read this.

Some of you were making disparaging remarks about Greenwald as a journalist. You all need to read his entire post at Salon. He has resigned from the board at CREW because of their denunciation of Wikileaks and Assange.

I am ashamed to be an American now for so many reasons. ( I also just read Altermann's treatise about the declining of America's empire.) We are in decline in so many ways, our polices based on immoral attitudes towards humanity. We operate on greed, selfishness, cruelty, inhumanity, arrogance, and the desire for power over all - in this country and the world.

This treatment of Manning is representative of the evil being manifest in American policy.

I am extremely depressed over the state of this country; I don't see a path towards improvement in any realm. Our citizens are ignorant, apathetic, easily brainwashed with lies, a distorted religious extremism, and distracted with baubles such as the latest fashion, shallow entertainers and stupid sports "heroes". Our "leaders" are cowed and/or distracted, bribed, with the wealth of those who think everything is just fine and dandy in their world, and will spend to keep it that way. Truth and reason are being repressed as godless humanism.

Talk me out it - do any of you see a silver lining through this dense fog of pessimism?

[Statistical]

31. Why should a traitor be treated better.

He leaked classified material to a foreign entity. Period.

That is a crime one punishable by death under UCMJ.

Nothing indicates he is being treated any differently than any other high risk prisoner.

If you don't want to spend 23 hours in a cell then don't remove classified material from a classified network and willingly and knowingly give it to a foreign entity.

He got used by wikileaks, sucks to be him. Better impulse control would have served him well.

[MNBrewer]

42. Traitor?

How about the sick fucks who got us into an illegal war? How about the sick fucks who decided that torture was A.O.K.? How about the sick fucks who decided to move "forward" and not prosecute the previously mentioned sick fucks?

[Statistical]

46. Two wrongs don't make a right.

He willingly and knowlingly removed classified material from a classified network and gave it to a foreign entity.

There is no possible definition of traitor that doesn't include leaking classified material.

[MNBrewer]

47. Sure there is!

Leaking improperly classified information, information that was classified to cover up a crime is not treason.

Your belief in the rectitude of the government is astonishing.

[RSillsbee]

68. The problem is

you don't get to make that call and neither does Mr. Manning. No one forced him to take the actions he took now he can live w/ the consequences of his actions

[MNBrewer]

75. The jackbooted thugs get to make the decision. I know!

[RSillsbee]

77. And manning knew that from the start

I have no sympathy for him at all

[MNBrewer]

78. Yes, that excuses EVERYTHING!

[Ellipsis]

81. Your sympathy is not the issue. It's our societies downfall that is...

by permitting inhumane treatment we destroy everything we supposedly uphold.

[RSillsbee]

84. How long do you thnk he'd last in GP? NT

[Ellipsis]

86. Case and Point. From the inmates or the guards? Either way it's a hypothetical. 'Tis not germain.

He ain't in GP. Are you in DOC?

[RSillsbee]

96. Nope, and neither is he

Bottom line this kid is going to spend the rest of his life in a cell he may even share a cell w/ this guy.

1989 - MICHAEL A. PERI, 22, an electronic warfare signals specialist for the Army, fled to East Germany with a laptop computer and military secrets 20 February and voluntarily returned 4 March to plead guilty to espionage. He was sentenced to 30 years in a military prison. Even after his court-martial, authorities were at a loss to explain what happened. Peri said he made an impulsive mistake, that he felt overworked and unappreciated in his job for the 11th Armored Cavalry Regiment in Fulda, West Germany.

The Army doesn't play when it comes to traitors

[Ellipsis]

107. Your a regular one trick pony.

So you represent the Army now?

[MNBrewer]

116. So watch out when the coup happens

right?

[MNBrewer]

114. That's not the only alternative and you KNOW that

[think]

199. A little longer if they'd let him exercise

I understand he is under military law and not civilian law but if we want the world to believe we are the most civilized nation in the world perhaps we should act like....

[Name removed]

118. Deleted message

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[14thColony]

190. Should we actually, like, charge him with a crime first, or is that passe as well?

I'm having trouble with which rights us liberals agree are no longer necessary or even desirable. I'm assuming 'innocent until proven guilty' (or even charged with a crime) is one we're cool with discarding now? It IS getting hard to keep up...

[OnyxCollie]

97. When the balance of power

falls on the side of criminals, it takes an extreme action to bring it back.

You didn't think VOTING was actually going to change things, did you?

[Capitalocracy]

139. There's only one wrong here, not two.

Whistleblowing is a right, not a wrong.

And how's this for the definition of a traitor: lying to get us into an illegal war leading to the death of millions of people and thousands of our own troops, and classifying the truth so it doesn't get out. That doesn't involve leaking classified material, and it falls under the category of traitor in my book.

[Name removed]

143. Deleted message

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[glinda]

152. Manning is a distraction.

[MH1]

56. "He leaked classified material to a foreign entity"

What part of that statement is not true?

That makes him a traitor by definition.

You may be ok with it, and I would certainly agree that the role of Assange and Wikileaks is a completely different issue; but Manning absolutely is a traitor, by definition.

(Last I heard he admitted to the act.)

Edit to add: I am not commenting on the rightness or wrongness of his treatment, only asserting that he IS a traitor.

[Lyric]

76. Has he been convicted?

Lots of people confess to things they haven't actually done, or that they weren't legally responsible for doing (for example, because they were insane or severely mentally ill). Until he's convicted, he's not ANYTHING.

And even traitors don't deserve to be treated cruelly. Normal prison treatment would work just fine. Why the extra meanness if not for some sick, vengeful purpose?

[Statistical]

92. What "meanness". He is a high risk prisoner and is treated as such.

He is high risk from attack by the general population thus he is in isolation.
He is a high risk to himself due to depression/suicide those his activities are limited.

[Lyric]

99. But the article said that he'd never been on suicide watch

and as for being threatened by general pop--that's not the point. How does banning him from exercising in his cell protect him from general population? How does banning him from reading the news or hearing any current events keep him safe from general population? And yes, he's depressed and being treated for depression--but the article says that his depression came about BECAUSE of his extreme isolation.

We use that kind of isolation as a form of severe punishment in the SuperMax, but those people have been convicted. This guy has not.

[Statistical]

110. The isolation in Supermax is not used as a punishment. It is used to protect other inmates. n/t.

[MNBrewer]

123. that's just laughable

HOW, pray tell, is preventing him from exercising protecting other inmates?

[Ellipsis]

127. Actually your wrong... It was originally implemented to protect the guards... then imates

but in an only effort to protect the inmates from violent inmates.... as moved forward in Florence Colorado. He's not violent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADX_Florence

[MNBrewer]

122. such as exercise, which helps alleviate depression!

:eyes:

[EFerrari]

88. Wikileaks is the press, not a foreign government.

In fact, Manning said very clearly before he was busted that he wouldn't give it to a foreign entity to manipulate, that he wanted it in the public domain. That's not treason, that's whistle blowing.

[Statistical]

91. Hardly. I never said foreign govt I said foreign entity.

Transferring classified material to foreign entity is treason and treason in a time of war is punishable by anything up to death penalty.

[EFerrari]

101. Wikileaks is a media outlet, not an entity working in service

of any foreign power.

[Statistical]

111. The law makes no distinction. Wikileaks has been granted no security clearance.

Revealing classified material to a person lacking either security clearance and/or need to know is a crime.
Transferring classified material to a foreign entity (doesn't need to be "working in service" whatever that bogus made up term means) is a crime.
Hell merely removed classified material from the classified network (SIPRNET) without authorization and with legitimate reason is a crime.
Failing to properly safeguard classified material so that it falls into foreign hands is a crime.

The reason, rational, or motive is irrelevant. Had he released the same docs to New York Times, General Electric, or his best friend in France all would equally be acts of treason and punishable under UCMJ up to an including life in prison or execution.

[EFerrari]

120. You're conflating crime with treason. n/t

[Capitalocracy]

140. Revealing the crimes others are trying to hide isn't a crime either.

Neither crime nor treason, it's the duty of anyone who swore to uphold the Constitution.

He shouldn't be in jail, he deserves a medal.

[midnight armadillo]

135. When was he convicted of treason?

Did I miss the trial?

How was Noshir S. Gowadia treated in prison before being indicted by a grand jury? Who's he you ask...
http://articles.cnn.com/2010-08-10/justice/hawaii.engineer.conviction_1_china-engineer-military-secrets?_s=PM:CRIME
August 2010
A former B-2 Bomber engineer faces up to life in prison after a federal jury convicted him of sharing classified information with China.

Noshir S. Gowadia, 66, of Maui, Hawaii, was convicted of unlawfully exporting technical information, illegally retaining defense information and filing false tax returns.

According to the U.S. Department of Justice, Gowadia received at least $110,000 from China for helping design its cruise missile system.

[Name removed]

183. Deleted message

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[14thColony]

189. Guilty until proven innocent does seem to be the most economical way to go

Trials are messy, long and costly, and there's always the chance he might get found not guilty by some panel of bleeding-heart Army NCOs or officers when we all "know" he's guilty anyway so what's the point? Let's just skip straight to the sentencing phase, followed by execution and celebratory cocktails.

[MrMickeysMom]

142. I'd be wanting someone to talk me down from that point of view...

... but I can honestly say, I'm not one of them.

Ashamed, yes... depressed, yes... I'm trying to deal at the local governmental level the spin-offs from what is down the road for us, and some post-depression and depression era citizens get it, others... wtf? They're living under a rock. Lots of denial about "what we're over there fighting for", etc.

There are a group of people, led by a 79 year old who will protest outside the White House. If Obama entirely ignores this, then I'll be fit to be tied.

Ashamed and fit to be tied.

[glinda]

151. Nope. Nothing short of a hugh uprising that is so big it would be successful. Clean sweep of

our Government and actual enforcement of laws. Good laws not the crap that our Government is making up.

[msanthrope]

9. No sheets or pillows constitutes inhumane treatment?

It's pretty obvious Glen Greenwald has never actually had a client in prison--Manning is being treated like any other high-risk prisoner.

And he is high-risk--he had assaulted a fellow soldier, was demoted, and has described himself as having 'adjustment disorder.' Read some of his quotes in this article--I would not have him in anything other than a protective environment.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/09/AR2010060906170.html

Records of the chats, which continued over several days, portray a dejected, disillusioned soldier. His long-distance relationship has ended, he's been demoted from specialist to private first class after he struck another soldier and the Army has removed the bolt from his rifle out of concern for his mental state.

Read more from this Tulsa World article at http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20101212_12_A1_CUTLIN691725&allcom=1

[MrMickeysMom]

144. No sheets and pillows...

and 23 hours out of 24 entirely isolated, placed on anti-depressents meanwhile. He was being fairly clear with some of those chats, wasn't clear on exactly if what he did was foolish, and I'd think as a result of this bullshit, he'd have severed a relationship or two.

Then of course, the one hour he's out of the cell, he's probably cleaning up the shit in his bucket and wondering if it's real or memorex...

Christ, is that concrete enough for you?

[Pavulon]

158. poor bastard better get hard, he will die that way.

in a place like florence adx, with nothing to hang himself with. his choice.

[RSillsbee]

184. I think military prisoners go to th DB at Ft. Leavenworth NT

[mmonk]

10. Isolation with no basic living amenity is an attack on the mind.

Psychologists know this.

[msanthrope]

14. What basic amenity is he without? The article describes how he watches tv---

[mmonk]

17. TV is not human contact or discourse.

[msanthrope]

22. You think general pop would provide 'discourse?'

He has to be in a protective environment---

"Records of the chats, which continued over several days, portray a dejected, disillusioned soldier. His long-distance relationship has ended, he's been demoted from specialist to private first class after he struck another soldier and the Army has removed the bolt from his rifle out of concern for his mental state."

Read more from this Tulsa World article at http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20101212_12_A1_CUTLIN691725&allcom=1

[MNBrewer]

28. why is he not allowed to exercise?

He might do pushups 'til he croaks?

[petronius]

58. It sounds as though the TV is restricted to the one hour out of his cell - the other

twenty-three hours he gets nothing.

I see no valid reason to deny him books, magazines, TV, exercise, a pillow, throughout the day - to do so is vindictive and punitive.

It really doesn't matter what Manning or any other prisoner did, how he's treated is the responsibility of the military and by extension us. They have an obligation to behave humanely regardless of how they feel about a prisoner...

[glinda]

153. Betcha it is on 23 hr. Faux news too.

[treestar]

29. So do you object to jail for anyone?

Can no one ever be accused of a crime?

People should just get to violate any laws they want to, without taking any consequences.

[mmonk]

37. How in the world did you come up with that?

[MNBrewer]

43. The objection is the CONDITIONS of the imprisonment

not the imprisonment itself. Get real! Come ON!

[rgbecker]

13. Can't this guy get a bail hearing?

Come on DU lawyers, what can be done for him?

I'm not commenting on his guilt or innocence just the process.

[msanthrope]

15. He's been denied bail. He's going nowhere.

He will probably never see the outside of a cell again.

Wikileaks should sent his lawyer the 100k they promised for his private defense.

[Statistical]

30. 100K or 100 million it wouldn't matter.

He removed classified material from a classified system and gave it to a foreign entity.
He had received a clearance and undergone the required training and security briefs.

While the SIPRNET operators were sleeping on the job when they let a single user access million documents the system did dutifully record every action, every keystroke, every single thing he did on the network.

He will never breath free air again. No amount of money will change that. Still pretty douchey for wikileaks to leave him to rot without even funding his defense.

[RSillsbee]

He'll get a JAG lawyer at no expense to him NT

[EFerrari]

82. Nope. He gave it to the media. And his chat with Lamo

includes a very direct statement of his purpose. The DoJ is going to have to do some major spinning. From Greenwald's blog post:

snip

And Manning explained why he never considered the thought of selling this classified information to a foreign nation for substantial profit or even just secretly transmitting it to foreign powers, as he easily could have done:

Manning: i mean what if i were someone more malicious- i could've sold to russia or china, and made bank?

Lamo: why didn’t you?

Manning: because it's public data

Lamo: i mean, the cables

Manning: it belongs in the public domain -information should be free - it belongs in the public domain - because another state would just take advantage of the information… try and get some edge - if its out in the open… it should be a public good.

That's a whistleblower in the purest and most noble form: discovering government secrets of criminal and corrupt acts and then publicizing them to the world not for profit, not to give other nations an edge, but to trigger "worldwide discussion, debates, and reforms."

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/12/14/manning/

[Statistical]

89. Except he didn't just disclose criminal & corrupt acts.

He transfered a whole host of classified documents on a variety of topics many of which are completley unrelated to war in Iraq and gave it to a foriegn entity.

The fact that he gave them to wikileaks rather than Russians/Chinese (and retired to non extradiction country) simply makes him stupid not less guilty.

[EFerrari]

104. And every word in the Pentagon Papers was not a lie. n/t

[DirkGently]

16. If true, this is criminal abuse. Intense solitary confinement is mind-breaking.

[Jim__]

24. Torture has become just a normal part of American jurisprudence.

And, we all just accept it.

[EFerrari]

36. Even defend it, to read this thread.

I was just thinking the same thing.

[glinda]

155. It is permeating all over the place.

[think]

200. People forget that the people who are publicly

visible as guilty still need to be treated as innocent until proven guilty. Those that wish to add additional retribution for his supposed acts before a trial are in fact violating the laws of justice. If we are truly a nation ruled by law we must uphold the standards for all persons being prosecuted for a crime.

No one has the right to arbitrarily apply their own form of justice on an individual in prison. What is being neglected here is the comprehension that if it is OK to treat an untried person like this based on what we think we know before justice has been served, what happens to the next person where the case is not so well defined.

The law was written to protect the guilty as well as the innocent in this scenario to protect those who may be wrongly accused and may be found innocent after trial. There is no provision for laissez-faire mediation of justice under the law nor should we start to accept this precedent now......

[EFerrari]

204. Very good point. People mistake government pronouncements for the law.

They confuse government behavior with due process.

Welcome to DU, think.

[treestar]

27. It must be different from what anyone charged with the same thing

be experienced to be such a terrible thing.

This is just to distract from the issue and pretend his lawbreaking (if proven) is somehow OK. At least unlike Assange, he is taking the consequences of it.

[Violet_Crumble]

192. Unlike Manning, Assange hasn't broken the law...

So I'm not sure why you think Assange needs to take the consequences of any law-breaking....

I'm sorry, but being disturbed about the way a prisoner is being treated is NOT distracting from the issue. For the record, I strongly believe Manning violeted the trust placed in him and broke the law in taking that classified information and should be punished for it. That doesn't mean I have to support mental torture, which was described in the article as being something done to US prisoners in Vietnam, nor do I have to sit quietly by agreeing when I see people calling for him to get the death penalty. He needs to be punished, but it needs to be a punishment that's not looking like something that would be meted out by some dictatorship where human rights are worth jack-shit...

[Renew Deal]

32. That was the risk he took when he did this.

[EFerrari]

34. That he would be abused by his government?

Actually, that's right. He committed a thought crime so now they're trying to destroy his mind.

[Renew Deal]

38. It wasn't a "thought crime."

It was a real tangible crime. And of course he deserves a fair trial (military or otherwise).

[EFerrari]

39. Leaking that information is indeed a crime but that isn't what he is being

punished for. Punishing prisoners in this way is a human rights violation and illegal.

[Renew Deal]

41. Since when was it illegal?

Even the article references the "supermax." If it's illegal, it should be challenged. Either way, he took the risk. He now has to deal with the consequences.

[Ellipsis]

45. Without a trial you are his judge and jury... you were there. I see.

Why play with him? Why not just cut off his head? Perhaps... just maybe as tool to intimadate others considering doing the same thing.

My question would be how'd this guy get clearance in the first place.

[Renew Deal]

48. He was an inteligence "analyst" who had access to too much data.

That's the governments mistake.

Didn't I just say he should get a fair trial? But is there a dispute about what he did? I don't think beheading is legal, but if it is, the jury should decide.

[Ellipsis]

49. Didn't they do a psych profile... I mean the guy has a conscience

or had one until he was shut away from the rest of humanity.

[EFerrari]

50. There must be a million results for the search "prisoner abuse".

Here's one relevant analysis from a much bigger report:

UNITED STATES HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS IN CORRECTIONAL PRACTICES
A contribution to the 2010 UN Universal Periodic Review
By NGO International CURE


The Universal Periodic Review (UPR), established by the UN General Assembly resolution 60/251 of 15 March 2006, is a new human rights mechanism. Through the UPR, the Human Rights Council (HRC) reviews, on a periodic basis, the fulfillment by each of the United Nations’ 192 Member States of their human rights obligations and commitments. The 2010 UPR includes an assessment of the United States adherence to its commitments. CURE’s assessments in the following concern only issues in correctional practices as guided by ratified human rights documents

snip


II. CONTROL UNITS

A. RELEVANT HUMAN RIGHTS

Article 7 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights states: “No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment.”

B. ANALYSIS.
Brain damage. Without sustained social interaction, the human brain may become as impaired as one that has incurred a traumatic injury. …One of the paradoxes of solitary confinement is that, as starved as people become for companionship, the experience typically leaves them unfit for social interaction.” (Atul Guwande, New Yorker, March 30, 2009)



C. VIOLATIONS.

A study of a hundred randomly selected inmates at California’s Pelican Bay supermax prison, noted that after months or years of complete isolation, many prisoners “begin to lose the ability to initiate behavior of any kind—to organize their own lives around activity and purpose.”… “Chronic apathy, lethargy, depression, and despair often result. In extreme cases, prisoners may literally stop behaving,” becoming essentially catatonic. (Craig Haney, a psychology professor at the University of California at Santa Cruz)

Such debasement of human beings clearly violates the intent of Article 7 of the ICCPR.

D. RECOMMENDATIONS.

1. Current practice of prolonged isolation in control/segregation units should be stopped completely.
2. There should be narrowly defined criteria for placement into control/segregation units so that they are used only for prisoners who are the most serious threats to safe and humane operations of correctional facilities. Placement in such units may never be done for prisoners with known psychiatric problems.
3. There should be a clearly articulated system in place for prisoners to work their way back to open population settings over a reasonable period.
4. The conditions inside the cells must not lead to adverse sensory deprivation, overstimulation, or disorientation, due to lack of natural light or excessive sound/noise/music. Deprivation of food, water or sleep, or spatial disorientation must be avoided at all costs. Restraints should not be used for punishment.
5. The mental health of all prisoners who are in control/segregation units should be regularly reviewed by properly trained and certified mental health professionals. If, in the opinion of these professionals, the inmates need treatment, it should be provided immediately, including transfer to a psychiatric setting if necessary.

http://www.internationalcure.org/UPR_USA.htm

This is a New Yorker article:
Hellhole
The United States holds tens of thousands of inmates in long-term solitary confinement. Is this torture?


Read more http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/03/30/090330fa_fact_gawande#ixzz1gcteIVHh

[Renew Deal]

87. I agree that longterm unnecessary solitary confinement is wrong.

But it is legal. And he put himself in this position.

[Ellipsis]

93. Actually it's not... just hard to prove.

unnecessary being the operative word.

[EFerrari]

95. It violates the standard minimum requirements

for the treatment of prisoners that we signed onto at Geneva and later, at the UN. That it is widely practiced in this country doesn't make it less illegal. We're just used to brutality.

[Renew Deal]

98. So why aren't they changed?

I see there's successful lawsuits about it: http://lacrossetribune.com/news/state-and-regional/wi/article_6e198c6e-fea8-5206-b942-b82015f3cf17.html

I'm sure money is part of the answer.

[EFerrari]

100. And I would bet you are right. n/t

[Ellipsis]

105. Maine seems to be trying

Last month, Maine State Rep. James Schatz proposed a bill that would limit solitary confinement in Maine to 45 days unless it can be shown at a hearing that the prisoner committed one of several listed infractions, such as sexual or injury-inducing assault. The bill also mandates that prisoners be allowed counsel and the opportunity to call witnesses at the hearing.

Schatz collaborated with the Maine Prisoner Advocacy Coalition to write the bill, which must be approved before being presented before the legislature’s second session. The state’s Legislative Council is set to make a decision October 15. If the council approves and the legislature passes the bill, Maine would be the first state to specifically limit solitary confinement for all prisoners and to provide inmates with a transparent process for getting in—and getting out—of the hole.

https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/%28S%28fcnzfdb51joguv3yn002s155%29%29/displayArticle.aspx?articleid=21835&AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1

[sudopod]

129. Have you ever bothered to read the god damned Constitution?

Jesus.

[glinda]

161. Invading another Country for "cake that is a lie" is also wrong. Illegal.

[glinda]

157. This should be its own thread.

[Crabby Appleton]

130. +1

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ellipsis]

35. kick

[Better Believe It]

40. More change we can believe in.

[Robb]

51. To call Manning's detention "torture" demeans those who have been tortured.

Greenwald is reducing himself to the role of circus barker.

[EFerrari]

52. Well, no. I posted two links in #51. Greenwald knows exactly

what he's talking about.

[Robb]

53. Well, yes.

You know as well as I do prisoner abuse is rampant on this planet. Conflating that with torture is like discussing curbing and gingivitis in the same newsletter.

Besides, the point is he said Manning was being tortured. Again, Greenwald demeans those who have been tortured with toothless hyperbole like this.

[EFerrari]

55. That's some very good speed reading there, Robb. n/t

[Robb]

57. Make your point.

[EFerrari]

74. I gave you links to two expert assessments.

One is by a doctor who says all human beings experience solitary as torture. The other is a UN commission that says it causes brain damage and should be discontinued immediately.

What you do with that information is up to you.

[MNBrewer]

59. Who are YOU to be the arbiter of what is and is not torture?

What do they have to do before you'll call it torture? Cut off his hands?

[Robb]

60. I am someone who opposes torture.

I also oppose hyperbole. But my opposition to that is significantly less profound.

[MNBrewer]

64. Ok, so let's grant your assertion that calling it torture is hyperbole

NOW what? He's still clearly being mistreated. You're ok with THAT?

[Robb]

66. I'd support an investigation to corroborate Greenwald's version of events.

I want to see Manning convicted before punishment is meted out.

[MNBrewer]

70. And if they're corroborated?

[EFerrari]

62. A little brain damage is no big deal.

:sarcasm:

[MH1]

63. +1

[JonLP24]

67. Greenwald himself doesn't call it torture in the article

He points out where and how others call it torture.

<snip>
Despite that, he has been detained at the U.S. Marine brig in Quantico, Virginia for five months -- and for two months before that in a military jail in Kuwait -- under conditions that constitute cruel and inhumane treatment and, by the standards of many nations, even torture.

<snip>

Just by itself, the type of prolonged solitary confinement to which Manning has been subjected for many months is widely viewed around the world as highly injurious, inhumane, punitive, and arguably even a form of torture. In his widely praised March, 2009 New Yorker article -- entitled "Is Long-Term Solitary Confinement Torture?" -- the surgeon and journalist Atul Gawande assembled expert opinion and personal anecdotes to demonstrate that, as he put it, "all human beings experience isolation as torture." By itself, prolonged solitary confinement routinely destroys a person’s mind and drives them into insanity. A March, 2010 article in The Journal of the American Academy of Psychiatry and the Law explains that "solitary confinement is recognized as difficult to withstand; indeed, psychological stressors such as isolation can be as clinically distressing as physical torture."

<snip>

In 2006, a bipartisan National Commission on America's Prisons was created and it called for the elimination of prolonged solitary confinement. Its Report documented that conditions whereby "prisoners end up locked in their cells 23 hours a day, every day. . . is so severe that people end up completely isolated, living in what can only be described as torturous conditions." The Report documented numerous psychiatric studies of individuals held in prolonged isolation which demonstrate "a constellation of symptoms that includes overwhelming anxiety, confusion and hallucination, and sudden violent and self-destructive outbursts." The above-referenced article from the Journal of the American Academy of Psychiatry and the Law states: "Psychological effects can include anxiety, depression, anger, cognitive disturbances, perceptual distortions, obsessive thoughts, paranoia, and psychosis."

(From the link above)

[Ellipsis]

69. I would guess he's referring to his initial tweet.

[EFerrari]

71. I posted links to both in #51. The passage in the commission's report

and the link to the New Yorker article.

[ProSense]

72. Nailed it n/t

[Ellipsis]

73. I'm not certain one can separate psychological and physical torture

one heals, the mind not so much all the time.

http://www.truth-out.org/veteran-suicides-outnumber-us-military-deaths-iraq-and-afghanistan64433

[DirkGently]

106. Actually, he said it's "warped" and inhumane. Which it is. Punishment is for the convicted.

Edit: And even as punishment, solitary may be unconstitutionally cruel and unusual. E.g. http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/03/30/090330fa_fact_gawande

[SidDithers]

117. +1...nt

Sid

[TexasObserver]

128. No, it doesn't. Being oblivious to torture demeans those who do it.

Let someone lock you up for 23 hours a day with no contact, no pillow, no sheet, no ability to exercise, no ability to communicate with anyone. Do that for one day and see if you think it's a vacation.

He's a citizen. He's not been convicted of anything. Do you understand what that means?

Besides, what they're doing is downright stupid. They should know better.

[EFerrari]

61. LINK to contact form for Amnesty International:

http://www.amnesty.org/en/contact

[Orsino]

79. The rich old men he embarrassed may not know shit about security...

...but they are vindictive as all hell.

[alcibiades_mystery]

83. Not just solitary confinement..."intensive solitary confinement"

"We strenuously object!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKvQrmNiiXw

@ 4:11

and 5:25

:rofl:

"Manning has been subjected for many months without pause to inhumane, personality-erasing, soul-destroying, insanity-inducing conditions of isolation similar to those perfected at America's Supermax prison in Florence, Colorado..."

Oy vey...

[Ellipsis]

102. Your a funny guy...

<snip>

EEG studies going back to the nineteen-sixties have shown diffuse slowing of brain waves in prisoners after a week or more of solitary confinement. In 1992, fifty-seven prisoners of war, released after an average of six months in detention camps in the former Yugoslavia, were examined using EEG-like tests. The recordings revealed brain abnormalities months afterward; the most severe were found in prisoners who had endured either head trauma sufficient to render them unconscious or, yes, solitary confinement. Without sustained social interaction, the human brain may become as impaired as one that has incurred a traumatic injury.

<snip>

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/03/30/090330fa_fact_gawande

[LostInAnomie]

94. Really? We're counting solitary as torture now?

:eyes:

[BlackHoleSon]

108. When obvious

torture isn't counted as "torture, " who's to say what is and what isn't, Rolly Eyes?

[DirkGently]

109. 1) The guy has been convicted of nothing. 2) Solitary is punishment.

And yes, it's very damaging. http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/03/30/090330fa_fact_gawande

So what we're talking about is subjecting someone who has not been tried or convicted of anything whatsoever, to treatement that's been established to cause long-term disability.

That may be okay with you. But there's a strong argument that it's unconsitutional on a number grounds, as well as being ethically repugnant.

[Catherina]

119. OMFG. n/t

[TexasObserver]

126. Yes, spending 23 hours a day in total isolation is torture.

Spending those hours unable to exercise at all makes it even worse.

They're treating him horrifically. If you can't see that, work on that.

[EFerrari]

124. CBS has it now.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503543_162-20025724-503543.html

[TexasObserver]

125. Our federal government has become a hopeless tyrant.

Our elected leaders do not take responsibility for the torture that takes place by their underlings.

We have fallen from a voice against human rights violations to one of the biggest human rights violators on the planet.

This kind of maltreatment of a citizen is despicable.

Our government is becoming the Big Brother we always feared might happen.

Remember when we thought electing a Democrat president would end this madness?

[Vattel]

133. I couldn't agree more

[Kaleko]

131. K & R

[Vattel]

132. Lots of apologists for torture at DU

[think]

201. yup

scary...

[JDPriestly]

134. Assuming the information in the OP to be true, Manning

should be so confused that he is willing to confess to just about anything by this time.

We will never know whether he remembers whether he did anything wrong or not. If he has already confessed, this treatment is unnecessary.

It sounds like the authorities are trying to prevent Manning from knowing what is going on in the world, what the sentiment is regarding his case outside his prison.

As a soldier, he does not enjoy the rights of ordinary citizens. But this kind of treatment, if truly what is going on, is inhumane. Obama fails to respect human rights once again.

[glinda]

163. Yup.

[Jakes Progress]

136. Amazing how much some replies here would make you think

you were on some Soldier of Fortune site, or some other gung ho soldier site.

Wouldn't it be refreshing if the Commander in Chief learned about this crap and made a call to some colonel in Virginia and got this stuff stopped? Golly. That would be refreshing.

[midnight armadillo]

137. Manning is being made into an example to prevent more leaks

You wanna be a Wikileaks hero? then the feds are going to fuck you every which way they can, starting by driving you insane before convicting you and executing you.

Manning will never see the light of day again. Count on it.

[EFerrari]

138. They can't jail everyone who supports this.

They're scared sh!tless. And their "confession" is a double-edged sword because it shows Manning had no intention whatsoever of harming the United States.

[Name removed]

177. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[glinda]

164. Yup again.

[Name removed]

141. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Phlem]

145. Wow, just wow.

The disdain for Manning in this thread is sickening. So he was a punk, he was pissed, he did something he shouldn't have. None of us have ever done anything like that. What ever.

Compare his crime to the Bush Cartel. Shrub basks in his offensiveness everyday hanging his ugly ass hairy nuts out for everyone to see. Oh yea some people died (sarcasm) under his watch while Manning, in his actions, might have inadvertently exposed corruption at it's worst by our benevolent government.

In the end, I see his actions as having a more positive result on our society than our President George Dubya Bush.

So 1+3=Tuesday and lets kill Manning! :shrug:

-p

[glinda]

165. We don't even really know exactly what he released. I want to know.

[marlakay]

146. The more I hear the sicker I get

Why is obama allowing this?

[Pavulon]

156. because bradass87 is like ames and pollard, except he could actually catch the needle

case he shot his secret load in public.

[Union Scribe]

186. Sounds like you're "shooting your load" thinking about it.

[Monk06]

147. Military prisons should be banned. The military should have no control over either trials or

incarceration. GITMO and Abu Garaib proved that.

[Pavulon]

154. fuck him, he will not get any treatment that will prevent him from showing up to

testify that he conspired with assange and crew. if he does not cooperate he gets the needle.

either way he is dead behind bars. that is a constant.

[Ellipsis]

160. Nice post Kevorkian.

I think we know how you feel by now.

[Pavulon]

162. I have feelings about wood floors and throw rugs, manning is for sure

going to die in prison a traitorous little bastard, bet on it. The current admin hates him, anyone else elected will only see him as a lower turd.

that is fact, bet on it.

[LAGC]

168. I'll take that bet.

I bet he only serves a couple decades, at most.

(And that's without rolling over on Assange.)

[Pavulon]

170. 6 decades or 7 if he testifies

else he gets the needle.. any time is in Leavenworth or florence. he is not doing bullshit time.

[LAGC]

172. I'll bet they make him a plea offer for much less.

All they really have is Adrian Lamo's testimony. How much do you want to bet he doesn't cooperate and take the stand?

He's already been castigated by the hacking community, many people want him dead for ratting out on Manning. I'll bet he doesn't have the balls to testify.

[Name removed]

175. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RSillsbee]

193. In 1989 a dumb ass named Michael Peri did essentially the same thing

He only got 30 years

1989 - MICHAEL A. PERI, 22, an electronic warfare signals specialist for the Army, fled to East Germany with a laptop computer and military secrets 20 February and voluntarily returned 4 March to plead guilty to espionage. He was sentenced to 30 years in a military prison.

[Pavulon]

205. Bradass is a higher profile case and disclosed lots of data(nt)

[RSillsbee]

208. What Wiki doesn't tell you

Is that Peri went across the Intra Deutsch border w/ the entire battle plans for VII Corps. Plus some CEOIs and some NRAS stuff the Russians said "Gee Thanks" ( In Russian of Course) and sent his happy ass right back across the border

[Pavulon]

209. That would be a bummer..

i assume manning knew he was going to get caught eventually. He discussed it.

[RSillsbee]

211. Apparently a number of the participants in this thread don't understand

that some of us took our oath seriously. Bradass betrayed that oath, now he can pay the consequences

[EFerrari]

210. Which makes that case nothing like Manning's. n/t

[RSillsbee]

212. Except the fact

That both trafficked in classified information that they obtained through a position of trust that they betrayed.

Yup, no similarities at all

[EFerrari]

214. Manning did not traffick information. He was not selling anything. n/t

[Pavulon]

216. He could have paid them to take it, irrelevant.

he disclosed the information, thats a crime, it's clearly explained as a crime when you get a clearance. It is not ambiguous.

He confessed, the only part left is does he testify against assange to escape the needle.

[RSillsbee]

217. Peri wasn't paid either

so they disseminated classified information. Are you happy now?

I suspect Bradass and Peri are going to be getting to know each other real well over the next 30 or so years

[EFerrari]

218. Yeah, exposing your government's crimes against humanity

won't make you popular. Exposing their crappy security arrangements in war time will make them actively hate you. Billions of dollars out of our pockets for the Pentagram and they can't secure a computer from a teenager.

Geezus.

[Pavulon]

220. They GAVE HIM ACCESS and manning STOLE. like giving someone you key

and them robbing you blind.

[Phlem]

224. "they obtained through a position of trust that they betrayed"

Sounds like our politicians, especially the "Bush" administration, but they get a free pass?

Talk me about Manning after the people who put this country into it's current position are brought to justice, otherwise this is just hypocrisy.

And yea, I'm not enlisted but I had a drill Sargent as a father for 18 years with a backwoods country fuck education. So yea, I feel like I joined the military and I've got the PTSD to prove it.
Oh yea and it felt really nice to beat the piss out of that abusing asshole when I was 16. So excuse if I don't believe any of the bat shit crazy reasons for offing Manning.

I'm sick and tired of hearing the "well you never been in the service so you don't know shit."

Right cause the military enlists fucking geniuses for cannon fodder.

:mad:

-p

[Pavulon]

213. ames, pollard, manning, all the same animal.

and they will all die caged men. Maybe not pollard, but he should croak in prison..

[Ellipsis]

169. The Guv: "There are inmates and there are convicts...

A convict has a certain code. And he knows to show a certain respect. An inmate, on the other hand, pulls the pin on his fellow man. Does the guards' work for them... brings shame... to the game. So, which are you gonna be?"


I think we know.

[Pavulon]

173. he dies behind bars, no matter what. when that happens is his call

he jumped in way above his head.

[earcandle]

166. This is criminal, torture, and it is happening in Quantico, Virginia...

This because we let Bush,Cheney,
Rumsfeld, Rove, Rice policies 
continue in the hands of the same carriers
under Obama.   

We have not stopped the criminals.   
New breeds of criminals 
in the White House now.  
Criminals are in charge.  

Do we still have an army?  
How is this 
supposed to be 
handled 
when treason occurs 
according to our constitution?  


If we carried out 
all of our regulations 
and rules of law, 
we could be back on track.  

I say yes.

Dudes, time to dust 
out some file cabinets 
and put people to work.  

We need our taxes, higher taxes. 
And less fines and penalties 
which are taxes on public behavior, 
a revenue used to prop crime economies. 

[go west young man]

167. What we need is one day in the spring.

5 million people in front of the Whitehouse with signs reading "Free Bradley Manning". Then maybe the tide will start to turn. This country needs a sea change big time.
We have our hero. Now we need to lift him up.

[Pavulon]

171. i puked in my mouth. that turd is no hero, he is ames and pollard

no more no less, he confessed so he dies behind bars. he is done.

[LAGC]

174. Who'd he confess to?

My understanding is that he's remained silent and is not cooperating. Where are you getting your info from?

[Pavulon]

176. no he confessed online , google bradass87 all there

even the case for conspiracy charge against assange. boingboing is cool

[LAGC]

178. You mean his alleged "chat" with Adrian Lamo.

Yeah, we'll see how well that holds up in court.

[Name removed]

179. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Pavulon]

206. yeppers. so bradley logged in to a secure network.

it is a safe bet his actions there will be logged. as well as his own admissions.

[go west young man]

219. He is our Mandela.

[Ikonoklast]

223. You cannot be in any way serious.

Manning is a person with some mental difficulties who made a really, really stupid decision and because of that will spend the rest of his life in prison.


He is in no way a hero.


In ten years or even less, everyone here who is so pumped up over this traitor will have forgotten him.

[go west young man]

226. America is more fucked psychologically than he is.

When the sea change comes we will all understand that he was right and the enemy was within our government and ourselves. Muslims with AKs and roadside bombs are tiny compared to what we are doing to ourselves.

[saras]

187. Where's the three billy goats Gruff when you need them?

It doesn't matter what he's accused of.

He's not convicted of anything.

He's being treated worse than repeat child molesters, and he's not guilty of any crime yet.

There's no excuse whatsoever for a human being arguing that he 'deserves' it. Unless you just enjoy torturing and destroying people, for the sheer pleasure of it. And if that's one of your primary values, you really should join the Republicans.

[Pavulon]

215. He is going to get a fair trial.

and being kept under isolation and suicide watch is not unfair. He confessed anyway, he convicted himself.

[Name removed]

188. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[14thColony]

191. OK, sorry, not to be a pain or anything but just need to clarify...

Based on the comments, the currently-developing 'liberal American position' seems to be:

1. Torture of an American citizen by the US government should be permissible even in circumstances not involving "ticking time bombs" (thank God that old 'slippery slope' canard that people brought up concerning GITMO was just a sissy liberal scare tactic...)

2. Guilty until proven innocent shouldn't be applicable in cases where we "know" someone is guilty, or when we think they did something really REALLY bad, or they scare us in some intangible but still scary way

3. The US government should be held accountable for any/all of its criminal actions, but only when they decide to disclose evidence of their crimes of their own volition, because to uncover the evidence any other way is treason or unAmerican or something really really bad (see 2)

4. Freedom of the press only applies to organizations the US government defines as press organizations (regardless of what other governments may think), and only so long as they don't violate no.3, 'cause otherwise they get some no.2 as well

I just want to make sure I'm on board with the current correct view, that's all. And I'd just like to say that I'm very happy Godwin's Law exists to prevent me from making any unseemly and ludicrously outlandish comparisons here.

[14thColony]

207. Oops

"innocent till proven guilty," not guilty till proven innocent...

[Name removed]

221. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[EFerrari]

197. Greenwald on Amy's show this morning.

Also, Dr. who wrote NYer article is being shown discussing solitary confinement.

No link yet.

[EFerrari]

203. Link to DemcracyNow! segment this morning:

http://www.democracynow.org/2010/12/16/alleged_wikileaks_whistleblower_bradley_manning_imprisoned

[proReality]

198. K&R n/t

[goforit]

222. It is time for the Hague Court to get involved ASAP!

[Supersedeas]

225. Doesn't the Red Cross provide a means of communicating who those in detention?

How does one go about contacting someone in solitary confirement?

Using official channels, how does one go about contacting Private Bradley Manning?

[maryf]

227. kick

worth another look.

[Better Believe It]

228. Kick