US school bans 'kirpan', Sikh community concerned

[The Straight Story]

US school bans 'kirpan', Sikh community concerned

WASHINGTON: A school in Michigan's Canton township has barred students from bringing a 'kirpan' to the premises after a fourth grader was found carrying the religious symbol and parents of other students objected to it.

The move has troubled the small Sikh community in the township near Detroit, prompting them to launch a public awareness campaign to make people realise that 'kirpan' is only a religious symbol that is completely non-threatening.

The school authorities decided to ban the carrying of kirpan within the school premises late last month after the fourth grader Sikh student was found with a three-to-five inch kirpan.

Following a legal review, the Plymouth-Canton Community Schools district decided to ban it as it violated local, state and federal policies against carrying weapons or items that look like weapons to school, the Detroit Free Press reported.

Similar disputes have cropped up in other parts of the US as well and the incident has concerned Sikh parents and other community leaders, who argue that kirpan symbolises their commitment to fighting evils, such as greed, and has no assault value.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics/nation/us-school-bans-kirpan-sikh-community-concerned/articleshow/7233133.cms

[Goblinmonger]

1. No problem with this at all.

It is a weapon. Don't care if it is symbolic or not. Don't care if it is a metaphor for fighting evil. It is a weapon and shouldn't be allowed.

[Orrex]

2. Next you'll say that I can't take my +5 Holy Avenger to school with me

[Goblinmonger]

4. No. +3 Sword of Sharpness would be OK, though. n/t

[Codeine]

29. When Stormbringer is outlawed

only outlaws will bring storms.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

3. I agree. -nt

[Whoa_Nelly]

6. have no problem with this either +1

[Soylent Brice]

25. i agree.

unless a sudden outbreak of zombies occurs there's no reason for a kid to have a 3-5 inch knife at school.

[Goblinmonger]

34. 3-5 inch blade would not be good with zombies

you need to be too close for the kill.

[Soylent Brice]

35. better than a No. 2 pencil though...

or a protractor for that matter.

:rofl:

[Goblinmonger]

38. True that.

As I think about my classroom, I realize I have no suitable weapon for a zombie outbreak. Have to work on that.

ooh, not true. I have a 5-foot metal pole above my shelves that I put up for Festivus. Got to keep that in the back of my mind.

[annabanana]

5. Could the kids carry rubber kirpans?

Does it have to be potentially lethal to be properly symbolic?

[Goblinmonger]

8. Or nerf kirpans

:evilgrin:
All jerkiness aside, I agree with you. Would have no problem if it were not so lethal.

[IntravenousDemilo]

27. From what I'm led to believe, no. n/m

[Lord Magus]

52. Apparently they can.

Or at least some Sikhs believe so:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2010/feb/09/dagger-dilemma-sikhism-kirpan-schools

[JI7]

7. doesn't matter, they should not be allowed to bring it

i don't care about their reasons. just because something is considered religion doesn't mean it should be allowed.

as someone said, how about a rubber one. or a small charm without sharp edges that can be worn as necklace or just carried.

[Occulus]

11. Christian crosses are worn on chains

Chains can be used to strangle
Christian students shouldn't be allowed to wear crosses on chains
If they want to wear a cross, they can hang it on a rope of cooked noodles

etc., and etc

[Goblinmonger]

21. You forgot the sarcasm thingy.

Because you can't be serious. Lots of shit can be used to kill someone. This is a knife.

[Occulus]

36. That's because it was absurdity, not sarcasm.

The "cooked noodle" bit should have been the giveaway....

[seabeyond]

22. fuck... hands. hands can be used to choke and kill too. no hands allowed. no knife

in schools.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

30. I had a parent try to convince the school that my daughter's hands were weapons and she should be

expelled as being "too dangerous" to be on campus. It was after my daughter prevented a beat down planned for her by the complainer's daughter and 3 other girls.

[seabeyond]

32. see. there you go. well, sorry for your daughters and your experience. seeesh. nt

[ProgressiveProfessor]

39. There is more to the story...the school counselor wanted to punish by daughter for it

even though the attack happened off campus. We backed her down though it was clear she was on double secret probation for a long while afterward. It was both funny at sad in some respects, though at the time anger and adrenaline were clearly dominant, even among the adults. In the end it could be best described as a mutually misunderstood set of cultural expectations. They thought my daughter should have accepted the beat down for her actions or at least fought like a girl. Our position is that self defense is a natural right and anyone can use any style that works for them. In this case it was Gojo-Ryu with some Crav Maga tossed in.

Nothing says you've been owned that your mother being handed your weave in a baggie.

[Drale]

45. My school tried to force me to go to counseling

because I broke the arm of a bully who was trying to attack me.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

49. In my daughters case the lead counselor was unable to fathom that our daughter could inflict the

kinds of injuries she did without somehow being in dire need of counseling and more. As I recall her words were that is was "just not possible that a child could do that kind of damage and be right in the head". My wife had a few choice words for her over that, pointing out that it was much more normal to defend oneself than it was to organize a gang attack on a new student.

[bananas]

9. I side with the Sikhs.

This is an important symbol for them.
We have given up too many civil rights.

[jallo]

37. It is not a civil right for a juvenile to carry a knife to school

We're not giving up that civil right, because it's not a civil right. I am pretty sure holy hand grenades would be banned too.

[hlthe2b]

10. why did the article not include a photo--clearly a weapon...

No matter its religious signficance. I do believe the Sikhs have gotten a bad rap, but this is a weapon with a sizable blade.

[The Straight Story]

13. Ever see the 3rd godfather movie - glasses, pencils, et al can be weapons

Heck, even your hands can be weapons :)

[hlthe2b]

14. true, but these have a rather large blade...

Hardly a "butter knife."

Given they will (and have) expelled female students for having ibuprofen or midol for their periods and straight A students for having a two inch blunt butter knife to apply their peanut butter, I think this one is a no brainer. Though I empathize with the Sikhs and would encourage the school system to try to find some appropriate compromise, as a kirpan made of non-rigid materials.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

18. Not all do

IIRC some schools allow them up to 3 inch blade, sewn in to the sheath and worn under clothing (no openly displayed).

[TheMadMonk]

53. Indeed. Virtually anything can be USED as a weapon. However,...

...the kirpan is, in its own definition CLASSED as a weapon.

I also believe ZT is a fucking great crock of shit.

Unfortuantely, in a world where the pedal inversion of coxyx & scapulae is a forbidden technique in ad hoc child psychology, there is no real way to police the middle ground of sensible behaviour.

Instead, we end up with a stupid situation where simply possessing the means to commit a given crime can be treated as worse than committing that crime with a "found" item.


Inneresting isn't it? For children, (sometimes anyone) in the modern world (sometimes completely) arbitrary rules and compliance are near absolutes. However, the law and responibility can be almost nothing. Child A could completely unknowingly bring a weapon to school and be severely punished for its possession. Child B could "find" that weapon and gut Child C and walk free, too young to be held responsible for their actions. Even in entirely adult litigation, defendants have successfully argued that their responsibility is diminished, because it was another's "crime" that made it possible for them to commit their crime.

[seabeyond]

24. thanks for the picture. i looked for one. nt

[Xithras]

46. Childrens kirpans aren't really weapons.

We have a sizeable Sikh population in the San Joaquin Valley and went through this fight more than a decade ago. A local district banned the knives, the ACLU sued, and the Sikh's won.

Sikh kids are allowed to wear special kirpans in our public schools. The blades are shorter, the edges are dulled (the edge of a plastic spork is sharper), and the top of the sheath is stitched closed to prevent it from being removed at all. They are only a "weapon" in the symbolic sense...you could do more damage with a #2 pencil.

These school districts can try to ban them if they want, but the ACLU has made their position clear, as have the federal courts. You can't ban religious items from a school, when those items pose no threat, merely because you don't care for their symbolism.

http://www.aclunc.org/news/opinions/religious_freedom_and_sikh_school_children.shtml

[hlthe2b]

48. That compromise seems rational and reasonable...

I wasn't proposing a ban, but rather a compromise. Being a long term member of ACLU, I can assure that to be the case--LOL.

One can purchase these types of daggers (and that is what they are) that could be dangerous, but there are ways, as you describe to render them non-threatening.

Likewise this ridiculous no-tolerance BS that has good kids expelled for all kinds of ridiculous misunderstandings needs to go. Time for some common sense, sensitivity, and rationality to prevail.

[dkf]

12. Does the TSA allow them on airplanes?

[lonestarnot]

15. What is the religious significance of a kirpan within the religion of Sikhs?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

17. Fairly critical in importance

Its one of 5 items as I recall.

[lonestarnot]

28. Yes, something significant because it is for the devout. Would like to know.

5 items? What are 5 items?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

33. Try here

http://oxfordsikhs.com/SikhAwareness/91.aspx it explains what and why. There are many other resources about this in Google as well. IIRC, the kirpan is to be maintained daily, if not ritually.

[provis99]

51. carry a weapon to protect yourself. And yes, it must be a real weapon.

All this blathering about "dulling the edges" of the kirpan is nonsense. If it isn't leathal, than it isn't a kirpan.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

16. This has been settled in other schools without incident, what is the problem here?

IIRC there are prior court decisions in several states that require some form of accomodation

[hlthe2b]

19. It seems like there could be kirpans produced of non-rigid materials

that would pose no threat. :shrug:

[ProgressiveProfessor]

20. The faithful will tell you it needs to be real...however it does not need to be sharp

[Goblinmonger]

23. If it doesn't need to be sharp

we are already redefining "real."

[ProgressiveProfessor]

42. You might want to read up on why it is carried

I tend to think that some of the accommodations done at other schools could work in Michigan, such as dull, sewn in sheath, worn underneath the clothes.

[Goblinmonger]

44. I would agree with those accommodations

from what I have seen. Both sides need to give a little on this. But if the child in question is carrying what the pictures in here show, that just can't happen.

[IntravenousDemilo]

26. The author has erroneously used "religious" and "non-threatening" in the same sentence.

Bringing a potential weapon to school is bad enough; bringing a religious potential weapon is many times worse.

[AsahinaKimi]

31. Kirpan is a knife..

I would imagine they would ban letter openers, swiss army knives..folding pocket knives.



or even a Higonokami

[ProgressiveProfessor]

43. That is one of many styles

Most are on the order or 3 inch blades or less.

[rucky]

40. Teaching ignorance in schools.

What lesson did the forth graders get from this?

[Goblinmonger]

41. That you can't bring a weapon to school?

:shrug:

[Igel]

47. "Non-threatening."

To whom?

Look, I honestly believe intent matters. But if you describe something as 'threatening' the lexicon's moved from discussing intent of the wearer to discussing perceptions of, well, perceivers. They can say that it's not intended to be threatening; perhaps they can get a majority not to see it as threatening.

Reasonable accommodation is okay. A good thing. But if you get a 2" penknife confiscated when a kid's done nothing but carried to it school after being used to carrying it all summer, when kids are in trouble because locked in the trunk of their car is a weapon that they used for hunting before school, then the ceremonial dagger bites the dust. They can check them when they appear in school in the morning, retrieve them after school. If we're going to be that paranoid.

[lynne]

50. Looks to me like this could easily be taken from the student -

- and used as a weapon. Have to agree with the school on this. Even if the intent of the student is good and the item is of a religious nature, in the wrong hands it would be a weapon.