If it's Obama vs. Bernie Sanders for the Dem nomination in 2012 how would you vote?

[Ken Burch]

[murielm99]

1. We can't do this.

A primary would be disastrous for our party.

[Ken Burch]

4. That's only true if the party leadership gets ugly about trying to stop it

That's what killed us in 1968 and 1980...the arrogance of the pro-status quo forces, not the challenge itself.

We'd have lost in '68 renominating LBJ too. The Tet Offensive guaranteed that.

If the establishment forces are fair-minded and even-handed, it doesn't have to be a disaster at all.

[sufrommich]

16. So who's going to primary Obama? nt

[sufrommich]

15. There isn't going to be a democratic primary. Nobody,including

Bernie Sanders, is the least bit interested in Primarying Obama.

[Le Taz Hot]

17. Oh, don't worry,

The Party Machine won't allow actual Democracy to occur. Our Reagan-admiring president will be the only candidate. Btw, the party is already disastrous and it wasn't the voters who did it.

[sufrommich]

19. Have any democratic politicians expressed a desire to

Primary Obama? If so,who?

[Le Taz Hot]

20. He/she asks with doe eyes.

:eyes:

[sufrommich]

21. Please, the only "doe eyes" going on here are those who seem to

believe there is a huge groundswell out there to primary Obama.Of course, it's virtually nonexistent among democrats.

[Le Taz Hot]

25. And who would that be?

I know better than to suggest a primary challenger. I'm old enough to know EXACTLY how this Major Two-Party System dog-and-pony-show works.

[hfojvt]

67. I wonder what the word is on the ground

At the recent convention last weekend, nobody was talking about primarying Obama. At regular party meetings, people have not expressed a frustration with Obama. I am not sure why. Low expectations? Lack of informations? More pragmatism?

One person, who is retired, apparently personally benefits from Obamacare, so she is all fired up about Obama in a positive way.

If I get around to it, I am gonna start calling county chairs in Iowa to find out how they feel.

[Donnachaidh]

38. you mean more disastrous than caving in to Republican demands?

Seriously -- do you really think the party will *exist* in any tangible form if Medicare and Social Security is put on the chopping block to push a *bipartisan effort* this president wants?

A Primary would be the only way to save the party if that happens.

[obxhead]

62. Sure

:eyes:

It was a total disaster when Hillary wouldn't concede the nomination and they tore each other apart until the very end. It was going to destroy any chance a Dem had of winning the WH in 2008.

That argument was wrong then, just as it's wrong now.

[murielm99]

70. The seat was open then. It was a different matter.

And out in the real world, people were not tearing each other apart. That is message board crap.

I went to events in my state where Obama and Clinton supporters were sitting together, talking, and sharing a meal.

[MisterP]

72. and a Senator can never be elected President--remember that indubitable fact from 2007? nt

[bigwillq]

101. Well, it's not really going to happen but we can have some fun

with it on a message board.

[pnwmom]

2. I like Sanders, but he has no campaign organization

and not a chance of winning in the broader election.

If we don't back Obama, we'll lose the general. All a primary opponent does is weaken the incumbent.

[Ken Burch]

3. We lose if Obama keeps sliding further and further right, too.

He can't win running a campaign that only appeals to big donors, and they're the ONLY ones who want him moving more and more towards the 'pug position.

Carter in 1980 proved me right on this.

[pnwmom]

10. Then you'll be happy to hear that his campaign is appealing strongly to SMALL donors.

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jun/25/news/la-pn-obama-small-donors-20110626

Obama attracting more small donors

The president's major fundraising filing will show a dramatic increase in the number of small donors so far this year compared with 2008. The tally is well over 300,000.

June 25, 2011|By Tom Hamburger, Washington Bureau
President Obama's next major fundraising filing will show a dramatic increase in the number of small donors so far this year compared with 2008, his campaign said Saturday.

"We had 180,000 contributors at this point in the last campaign; now it's well over 300,000," said spokesman Ben LaBolt in an email previewing the upcoming filing. LaBolt declined to elaborate except to say in his note that the filing will show "small dollar contributors back in greater numbers."

[Erose999]

30. This "small" donor will be giving to Kucinich, Sanders, and Frank. Not one red cent to the DLC

and the corporatists. Let their buddies in big business finance their campaigns.

[pnwmom]

33. I thought Kucinich was losing his seat. n/t

[Ken Burch]

65. There's a good chance Dennis will relocate to Washington State and stand in an open seat there.

Which would be great, since it will be a tragedy to have a Dennis-free Congress.

[xphile]

41. That's part of the problem isn't it. When it comes time for votes and money the small people exist.

When it comes time to put up and shut up vis a vis policy, big money and their interests win every damn time.

Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me. I'm not falling for that shit again. No money from my broke ass this time around. Not one damn dime.

[LooseWilly]

52. + a lot... you aren't the only one.

The only question is how vicious my tone is when explaining this to the poor volunteers asking for money again this time around... poor bastards.

[Raksha]

64. +1000 Can you guess how I voted in the poll?

Shouldn't even need to ask. In 2008 I voted for the proverbial "lesser of two evils" (not knowing how much of a corporatist he really was)) for the very LAST time. I'm writing in Bernie Sanders if I have to, primary or no primary.

[ImNotTed]

5. Sanders is too old

And a primary WOULD end up putting a GOPhuckyourself in the White House.

[Canuckistanian]

90. Sanders is 70

Bob Dole was 73 when he ran. McCain was 72. Reagan was 69. GHW Bush was 68 when he lost to Clinton.

Age doesn't matter.

[Unvanguard]

6. Bernie Sanders is not (technically) a Democrat, and in any case could not win.

He's a self-declared socialist. Good. But not good for a national presidential candidate.

[yurbud]

7. He would be a great president, but it would be tough to get much done with one & a half corporate

parties controlling congress.

[msongs]

8. remember when "they" said Obama could not win? at least Sanders stands for something nt

[Unvanguard]

11. I always thought Obama could win. Thought so since 2004.

Sanders hasn't a chance.

[Donnachaidh]

39. +1000. nt/

[AtomicKitten]

9. As others have stated, Bernie isn't a Democrat.

A better question would be if he ran as an independent ...

[woo me with science]

12. He should be a great resource for any Dem who does run, though.

This country has moved so far to the right that talk about socialism is a distraction and a red herring. At this point, we are just trying to turn the tide and move back leftward toward the center. Bernie is expressing the need for a change in direction more powerfully than any Democrat I can think of.

Access to jobs and a living wage, not having to be filthy rich to afford medical care, not having to worry about becoming destitute in your old age....These used to be things the Democratic Party stood for.

[socialist_n_TN]

104. A quibble with your post. I would postulate that

the COUNTRY hasn't moved far to the right, but only that the LEADERSHIP of the country has moved far to the right. Polls on ISSUES show that the USA is a center-left country. Unfortunately, the options that we're offered electorally, are all center-right to bat shit crazy right. That's why Bernie would be different. He would offer a passionate actual left wing voice for the POSITIONS that are SO popular with the people of this country.

[Motown_Johnny]

13. any primary challenge will lose and damage our chances of holding the white house

I can't support a challenge no matter who it is

[dionysus]

14. ah yes, let us fantasize about obama being beaten in a primary... what beautiful dreams...

:rofl:

[Solomon]

107. LOL This thread clearly demonstrates how delusional people

are. Sanders is the candidate du jour now. LOL That's what today's politics have become. No matter whether you're democrat or republican, just talk a good game and you're automatically seen as somebody who can get the job done. Part of me really wants to see what Sanders could get done as president, just to show that it's one thing to stand on the outside carping and postulating, and quite another thing when you're under the mantle.

I guess Waxman will be candidate du jour next. LOL

[Freddie Stubbs]

18. Bernie Sanders isn't even a Democrat

[NorthCarolina]

26. Bernie is closer to being a "Democrat" than Obama with respect to political views

and motivation.

[Freddie Stubbs]

27. A Democrat as defined by whom?

[NorthCarolina]

80. Bernie Sanders consistently garners more Recs on DU, a Democratic site, than

just about any "official" member of the Democratic Party. So, maybe as defined by DU'ers for one.

[Freddie Stubbs]

103. Are DUers representative of Democrats as a whole?

If they were, Dennis Kucinich would have been the Democratic nominee for President in 2004 and 2008.

[socialist_n_TN]

105. Franklin Delano Roosevelt

nm

[Freddie Stubbs]

109. The same FDR that ordered the internment of 110,000 Japanese Americans?

[SidDithers]

28. Bernie might be a "Democrat" but he's not a Democrat...nt

Sid

[Renew Deal]

32. Sanders is as much a Democrat as Eric Cantor.

[TheKentuckian]

51. Cantor is in our caucus??? Sometimes it seems so.

Caucusing with us would make him somewhat more of a Democrat than the opposition Majority Leader, I'd reckon.

[Ken Burch]

66. He organizes with us and is more loyal to us than Obama is

n/t.

[Ice Number Nine]

44. so sayeth the King of All Democrats!

[Romulox]

34. His distance from the DLC/Corporate Dem orthodoxy is his selling point. nt

[SidDithers]

22. LOL...

Hope springs eternal!

Sid

[dionysus]

29. Sanders\Como 2012!!11!

celebrate good times... come onnnnn.............

[Cali_Democrat]

57. Who's Como?

:shrug:

[SidDithers]

83. That's Eugene Levy playing Perry Como on SCTV...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1yvS_m_7eE&sns=em

Hope that link works.

Sid

[JTFrog]

23. Bernie will be supporting President Obama in 2012. n/t

[scheming daemons]

24. Are some of you so removed from reality that you believe that

A. Anybody is going to primary Obama

Or

B. Bernie Sanders would get more than 35% in a national election?

[Renew Deal]

31. Sanders can't primary Obama. He's not a Democrat.

[JackRiddler]

69. This is not strictly true. There are procedures for getting on ballots, as I'm sure you know.

[LiberalAndProud]

35. This is reminiscent of the Kucinich polls in 2008.

I would vote for Bernie if given the chance, as I would have voted for Kucinich in 2008 if given the chance.

By the time we got around to our caucus Kucinich was already out of the race. So as feel good as these DU polls might be, in the larger scheme of things ...

meh.

[spanone]

36. bernie would never win the general election...we would hand it over to thugs

[WillyT]

37. Bernie Sanders May Be An Independent, But He Is More In The Model Of An FDR Than...

anybody else in the Democratic Party. And that's saying something considering that FDR was the best Democratic President that ever lived.


Franklin Delano Roosevelt announced
the plan for a bill of social and economic
rights in the State of the Union address
broadcast on January 11, 1944

“The Economic Bill of Rights”

Excerpt from President Roosevelt's January 11, 1944 message to the Congress of the United States on the State of the Union:

“It is our duty now to begin to lay the plans and determine the strategy for the winning of a lasting peace and the establishment of an American standard of living higher than ever before known. We cannot be content, no matter how high that general standard of living may be, if some fraction of our people—whether it be one-third or one-fifth or one-tenth—is ill-fed, ill-clothed, ill-housed, and insecure.

This Republic had its beginning, and grew to its present strength, under the protection of certain inalienable political rights—among them the right of free speech, free press, free worship, trial by jury, freedom from unreasonable searches and seizures. They were our rights to life and liberty.

As our nation has grown in size and stature, however—as our industrial economy expanded—these political rights proved inadequate to assure us equality in the pursuit of happiness.

We have come to a clear realization of the fact that true individual freedom cannot exist without economic security and independence. “Necessitous men are not free men.”<2> People who are hungry and out of a job are the stuff of which dictatorships are made.

In our day these economic truths have become accepted as self-evident. We have accepted, so to speak, a second Bill of Rights under which a new basis of security and prosperity can be established for all—regardless of station, race, or creed.

Among these are:

The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the nation;

The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation;

The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living;

The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;

The right of every family to a decent home;

The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health;

The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment;

The right to a good education.

All of these rights spell security. And after this war is won we must be prepared to move forward, in the implementation of these rights, to new goals of human happiness and well-being.

Americas own rightful place in the world depends in large part upon how fully these and similar rights have been carried into practice for all our citizens.

For unless there is security here at home there cannot be lasting peace in the world.

Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Bill_of_Rights

I believe in every one of those things... do you?

:shrug:

[nc4bo]

40. Wish your post was a seperate thread.

It truly is what's needed now.

[WillyT]

54. Your Wish, Is My Command...

Link: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x1378938

:D

:hi:

[Ice Number Nine]

45. FDR was not a God. He fucked up a lot, too.

But why pay attention to that?

You want an ideal, correct?

[WillyT]

50. Sure He Did... They All Do... But He Fucked Up So Much...

he was elected to FOUR TERMS.

:shrug:

[Ice Number Nine]

56. and George Washington could have been King. What's your point?

If there weren't term limits, Reagan probably could have gone at least 3 terms and even more if he'd been healthy.

Popularity has little to do with actual accomplishment.

Not to discount FDR's accomplishments,
but if he were President today, he would get even more shit than Obama does. And he would accomplish far less without his supermajorities.

[WillyT]

68. Maybe... But Accomplishments Can Have A Lot To Do With Popularity...

as it did with FDR, with Obama... not so much.

And... they don't call it the "popular" vote for nothing.

Also and... is it too much to ask for a positive reason to vote for Barack Obama again???

I'm a wee bit tired of the "or else" reasoning offered up around here.

:shrug:

[Ice Number Nine]

71. There are plenty of reasons to vote for Obama and you know it.

What FDR did was possible because he had almost no resistance in Congress.

Obama has had nothing but resistance and has still managed to do things that nobody since FDR had been able to accomplish.
If he had had real super-majorities he could have been a steamroller.
But he didn't.
So he's had to work 10 times as hard for everything he's won for us.


It's easy to ride on FDR's bandwagon. Especially 70 years later.

It's tougher to stick by Obama when he's in the middle of a knife fight with a gang that doesn't hesitate to stab you in the back repeatedly.


But which is more important??
One is history.
One is happening right now.

[sabrina 1]

76. Where's this 'knife fight'?

If I could find it I would stick by whoever is fighting to preserve the Democratic Party's cornerstone social programs. Obama doesn't need to do what FDR did, all he has to do is fight to keep Republicans from tearing apart what the Democratic Party stands for.

Show me that fight and I will be there along with just about everyone here.

Has there been a statement yet from the WH regarding Waxman's question??

[coalition_unwilling]

102. Um, Reagan was already exhibiting signs of Alzheimers during

his second term. IIRC, it's why Walsh chose not to recommend his impeachment and\or indictment, after Walsh interviewed him.

[sabrina 1]

73. FDR wasn't a God???

Thanks for bringing that scoop to DU. Shocking! :eyes:

So glad you are here to educate us dummies! Welcome to DU!

[Ice Number Nine]

78. you said it.

[sabrina 1]

84. Lol, you're going to have to be smarter than this.

Don't like dummies?

The solution is simple.

But go ahead I'm thoroughly enjoying your, em, 'comments'.

[Taverner]

42. Um, last I heard Bernie was not a Democrat

Sure, he caucuses with us, but to run for the Democratic Nom, you have to actually be, a Democrat

Now if he changed his party affiliation, then he could run

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

46. Neither was Eisenhower, but the Dems tried to draft him for president.

[Taverner]

47. I'm not disagreeing with you, per se

But he has to join the party if he's going to run for our ticket...just saying

[Ice Number Nine]

43. Fools and their pipe dreams are damn near inseparable.

[sabrina 1]

74. DUers are 'fools with pipe dreams'?

Maybe you should hang around for more than a few days before insulting DUers?? Read the rules also, which you probably haven't had time to do yet!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

48. Hopefully, we'll have that choice.

[brooklynite]

49. Please, explain,very simply, how Bernie Sanders wins the General Election...

I, for one, based on decades of experience, choose to base my political analysis on reality, rather than on my personal hopes and preferences.

[TheKentuckian]

53. If the likes of Phailin, Bachmann, Gingrich, and the rest of the clowns can be "serious" candidates

Then Bernie would be a legitimate contender.

[brooklynite]

58. ...except that they're not, as far as the General Election goes.

[TheKentuckian]

61. They will be if they are the nominee and one of those fuckwits will be the nominee

[ismnotwasm]

55. Obama n/t

[JoePhilly]

59. Yet another masturbatory primary Obama fantasy.

These threads are like the junk they posted in Penthouse when I was a kid (maybe they still do).

"I am a junior at a small mid-western college ... and you won't believe what happened to me ... there was a knock on my bedroom door, and standing there was Bernie Sanders ... we quickly removed our clothes ... and then ... Bernie Sanders won the primary against Obama!!"

[cali]

60. Obama. Sorry, folks you can't have my Senator.

[Kaleva]

63. I recall a DU poll that showed Kucinich easly winning the 2008 primary

But in the real world, he did so poorly with the base that he withdrew on Jan. 25th.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

75. How is this thread even allowed to exist? I love Bernie but he is NOT a Democrat.

And that means that you're violating DU rules by even having this poll up.

[WillyT]

81. He's A Reminder Of What Democrats Used To Be

and how far the party has drifted right.

:shrug:

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

86. He's NOT a Democrat! Period!! n/t

[WillyT]

88. Evan Bayh Was A Democrat, Joe Lieberman Was A Democrat...

That's enough for you?

You don't care about history?

You don't care about principles?

You don't care about the Democratic Party Platform?

You just care about winning?

:shrug:

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

92. Straw man. You don't know shit about me! That wasn't the point.

You're missing the point, so you attack me instead. Off to Ignore you go!

[WillyT]

95. Wow... I'm Sorry You're So Easily Hurt...

Not my intention.

[Ken Burch]

89. If he organizes with us, he's a Democrat

And there were no Dems in Vermont that would ever have been worth voting for instead of Bernie. It would have been worthless to have a party regular who acted like Lieberman, for example.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

93. And the irony is that Bernie Sanders has consistently supported Barack Obama.

...and he still does! Trust me. I have students who intern for him and I speak with Bernie on a regular basis. He supports the president, so your so-called "poll" is meaningless. I love Bernie, but he will never primary Obama and he will never run for president.

[cliffordu]

77. Other:

Tony the Tiger, or maybe Count Chocula.

I could go with Captain Crunch if I had to, but only if there's a sex scandal.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

79. Bernie, hands down.

O has all but lost me as it is.

[ProSense]

82. And the minute

Sanders says he doesn't have the votes for something. he'd be under a bus. It happened when he said that about single payer.

The difference between the role of a blue-state Senator and the President should be clear.

[Ken Burch]

87. It wasn't just that Obama said he didn't have the votes for a real healthcare bill

It was also that Obama made it clear that he would never, ever even bother trying to improve the bill in the future(and he said this BEFORE the 2010 election results, when the national Democratic leadership, had it had any convictions at all, could have mobilized progressive anger at the meaningless shell of a HCR bill that we got to get Democratic GAINS in 2010, simply by getting all the young idealists who voted in 2008 to go back to the polls again).

When you have to settle for half a loaf, you also have to make it clear that you're going to keep fighting for the REST of the loaf. You don't just say "this is all we're gonna get...so shut up and live with it".

[CakeGrrl]

108. I don't know about that...

Some may throw him under when he doesn't deliver the firebrand magic in the face of reality, others may make excuses for him. Could go either way.

[Shagbark Hickory]

85. Bernie of course. As long as he ain't a moozlin and he got his birf cetifficut.

[AverageJoe90]

91. I'd definitely pick Sanders, but..........

I'm afraid he might die in office before the end of his first term. The guy's 69, you know.

[Ken Burch]

96. OK...so he's 69.

Bernie's still in vigorous good health.

Besides, he wouldn't actually have to get elected or even nominated for a primary challenge to have positive effects. Even if he brought, say, 1500 Sanders delegates to the next convention to push for a re-commitment to an genuine progressive platform(which means standing up to corporate power, not surrendering to it over and over)that would do a lot to help this party in the fall.

[Zorra]

94. I'd be forced to do what is best for my country.

I've listened to Bernie on Thom Hartmann for years, I get emails from him all the time. I know he totally understands what needs to be done to save this country and would set about trying to do it if he was Prez.

There is no way I would, or could, in good conscience, be able to vote for President Obama in a primary where Bernie was running against him.

[deacon]

97. I can't take this seriously. n/t

[chill_wind]

98. Rather interesting vote response.

K & R

[denbot]

99. My vote is tallied..

My reply is "No comment".

[bigwillq]

100. Bernie!

:bounce:

[Tommy_Carcetti]

106. Come on, we all know Al Gore is going to run in 2012. nt

[postulater]

110. Bernie.