"What we're watching is the death of the Democratic Party as most of us have known it"

[Better Believe It]

"What we stand for as Americans is not something the Democratic Party represents any more." That appears to be the case. BBI

The Breaking Point
By: Jane Hamsher
July 7, 2011

What we’re watching is the death of the Democratic Party. Or, at least the Democratic Party as most of us have known it. The one that has taken its identity in the modern era from FDR and the New Deal, from Keynsianism and the social safety net. Despite any of its other shortcomings (and they are myriad), the Democratic Party has stood as a symbol for commitment to these principles. As recently as 2006, Democrats took over the House in a surprise wave election because the public feared that George Bush would destroy Social Security, and they trusted the Democrats over Republicans to secure it. Just like George Bush, Obama now wants to “save” Social Security….by giving those who want to burn it to the ground the the very thing they’ve wanted for decades.

Any member of any party who participates in this effort does not deserve, and should not get, the support of anyone who values Social Security and cares about its preservation. The amount of damage that the Democrats under Obama have been able to do has been immeasurable, by virtue of the fact that they are less awful than George Bush. But where George Bush failed, Obama will probably succeed.

Which means we’re watching another casualty here: Democracy. Or at least, the illusion that we live in a democratic society. The public, regardless of party, overwhelmingly opposes cuts to Social Security and Medicare. But elected officials of both parties are hell-bent on conspiring to bring the programs to an end. They seem to have come to grips with a fact that the public has not: their tenure in office depends on carrying out the wishes of oligarchical elites.

We’ll fight this, because it’s the right thing to do. We will probably lose. But we will make it as painful as possible for any politician from any party to participate in this wholesale looting of the public sphere, this “shock doctrine” for America. And maybe along the way we’ll get a vision of what comes next. Because what we believe in as Americans, and what we stand for, is not something the Democratic party represents any more.

Read the full article at:

http://firedoglake.com/2011/07/07/the-breaking-point/

[librechik]

1. as Fugelsang tweeted this morning, "I'd love to vote for a 3rd party, but

I'd settle for a viable 2nd party."

[ClarkUSA]

4. Do you know "The Progressive Caucus DEFENDS President Obama on his Social Security Stance"?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=702936&mesg_id=702936

[librechik]

24. sick of "liberal" censors who want to stifle Jane for this or that reason

and don't bother convincing me, I don't care about what evidence you have that she deserves to be stifled.

[ClarkUSA]

28. Jane Hamsher is a PUMA who is on the Republican payroll and counts Grover Norquist as an ally.

Liberals like me think she is full of shit and a Republican tool.

[WillyT]

39. I've Fought With Liberals, I Know Liberals, Liberals Are Friends Of Mine...

sir... you're no Liberal.

:evilfrown:

[ClarkUSA]

42. Fuck that. I'm a Liberal who proudly supported the top non-DLC presidential candidate in 2008.

Unlike PUMA Jane Hamsher, who supported DLC Royal Hillary and now pretends she's a liberal so she can attack Pres. Obama from the Left she was never a part of until he became President (but that doesn't stop her from fighting HuffPo boycott organizers and taking money from Republicans via her media company).

[Jakes Progress]

61. By your actions will ye be known.

Supporting and cheering candidates who cut social security, extend wars, privatize education, wreck the budget with tax cuts for the wealthy, support Wall Street over Main street is not what a liberal does.

You seem to be coming up with a whole new definition of the word. But after forty years of serving the electoral aspirations of liberals, I can assure you. You are not a liberal.

[ClarkUSA]

75. I repeat, I'm a Liberal who ALWAYS proudly supported the top non-DLC presidential candidate in 2008.

Unlike some people.

[rhett o rick]

98. Keep repeating it. Maybe you will convince yourself. nm

[ClarkUSA]

116. How would you know, since you weren't here back then?

Uh huh. Sure.

[Lasher]

159. I'm glad I don't feel compelled to apologize for Obama no matter what he does.

You must be having a hard time these days.

[ClarkUSA]

217. Good, b/c you never have to. I'm glad I don't feel compelled to attack Obama no matter what he does.

It must be sad to be a Republican tool of a PUMA, if Jane Hamsher is any example.

[Name removed]

218. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ClarkUSA]

226. I don't apologize for Obama no matter what he does. I support him, as a majority of liberals do.

Part of that support is defending President Obama against lying liars.

[Lasher]

230. Can't come up with one single post where you have criticized him for anything?

Not even his bowling skills? Cigarette smoking? Not taking enough credit for his own greatness? Anything?

I didn't think so.

[ClarkUSA]

231. Can't come up w/one single post where you have defended him against GOP tool PUMA Jane?

I didn't think so. :)

[Name removed]

233. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ClarkUSA]

235. Can't come up w/one single post where you've defended him against speculative shit-stirring outrage?

I didn't think so.

[Lasher]

237. You keep moving the goalpost.

I have shown that I am not always critical of Obama. You have failed to show that you have criticized him even once for anything whatever. And when I asked if there is anything at all he could do to lose your support, you didn't answer. I think that's because there just isn't anything.

Open you mind. Nothing and nobody is self-justifying.

[Name removed]

240. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ClarkUSA]

250. No, I simply changed the wording to leave out PUMA Jane. Not once, am I right?

[Name removed]

189. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Enthusiast]

124. It ain't workin' for me. nt

[Dept of Beer]

191. Who are you arguing with?

Ignore is a valuable tool when the white noise gets too shrill.

[rhett o rick]

196. A better question is why am I wasting my time arguing with New-Democrats.

And I will take your advice re. the ignore.

[rhett o rick]

197. Done. nm

[sulphurdunn]

156. Self-validation is not proof.

What you are or are not does not validate your ad hominem attack on Jane Hamsher.

[Divernan]

188. Maybe you used to be - but not anymore

Don't know what part of the country you're from. You keep telling us how proud of yourself you are, but your profile is MIA. Live inside the Beltway by any chance? Got a vested interest you're not sharing with us?

[Jakes Progress]

221. Not a liberal under any real world definition.

I've been working with liberals for forty years. I haven't read one single liberal post from you yet.

You are even less liberal than Clinton and Obama.

[erodriguez]

89. Cut social security and Medicare.

I got this!

[ClarkUSA]

92. Oh, do you mean "The Pact Between Bill Clinton and Newt Gingrich"?

The Pact Between Bill Clinton and Newt Gingrich
Two powerful foes secretly plot to reform Social Security and Medicare

http://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2008/05/29/the-pact-between-bill-clinton-and-newt-gingrich

[erodriguez]

95. No worries! I got this!

[Divernan]

190. You seem to be in the wrong decade -

[Jakes Progress]

222. He has already said that his knowledge only goes back three or four years.

He has no experience or knowledge of Democratic history.

[Deep13]

160. Are we going to start this primary shit again?

It is not the fault of those of us who supported Hillary that essentially all of our predictions about Obama came true. Economically, Obama and Hillary Clinton are about the same, but Clinton is to the left of Obama on social issues. And she knows how to and is willing to fight dirty. She would not have caved in on important matters like to the degree Obama did.

[saras]

182. True, but she's still a corporate right-winger wearing a blue D button

[liberation]

199. Yeah Obama vs. Hillary discussions are always hilarious

Hillary was a former president of the college republicans chapter of her alma mater who sat on the board of Walmart, and Obama is a neo liberal marketing dream who praises Reagan any change he gets. Frankly, these discussions about the number of progressive angels each of them can fit in their lapel pins are fascinating, as they seem to be an exercise in denial.

[FedUp_Queer]

203. Which Social Issues?

Is she to the left of him on? On, Same-sex marriage...same; on DOMA...she was not for full repeal, he was. I know there are other things...as my moniker probably lets on, I'm rather focused on those two things. Social security? Health care (the individual mandate was her idea)? I'm just curious. I definitely agree with you on the economic issues part...they are both corporatists and in the pockets of Wall Street (she was just more honest about it).

[obxhead]

204. I'm starting to believe Obama has not caved on a single thing.

He has strategically fought for exactly what he has wanted.

[Tutankhamun]

216. I've been thinking the same thing.

If that's true, it's a brilliant, albeit sinister strategy.

[Still Waters]

232. I think his quest for bipartisanship trumps everything else

He stated numerous times during the campaign that he wanted to be a transformational president. What was this goal: to transform the poisonous atmosphere of Washington and find common ground between Dems and Reps to move the country forward together. He refuses to see that the current insane Republican party will not negotiate in good faith and will not compromise. I honestly do not understand this--after the healthcare fiasco how could he continue along this path?

And, just my personal completely unscientific opinion-I think all of our Democratic presidents and presidential candidates since JFKennedy are good, old fashioned, classic Liberals but I think they are so cowed by the media, big business, and accusations of being unpatriotic and anti-Christian that they bend over backwards to try to be Centrists and appeal to Independent voters.

[liberation]

195. You forgot the "neo" in your "liberal"

it makes all the difference.

[bvar22]

198. A-fucking-Men... a "NeoLiberal" is NOT a "Liberal",

..just as a "New Democrat" is NOT a "Democrat".

"The worst enemy of humanity is U.S. capitalism. That is what provokes uprisings like our own, a rebellion against a system, against a neoliberal model, which is the representation of a savage capitalism. If the entire world doesn't acknowledge this reality, that nation states are not providing even minimally for health, education and nourishment, then each day the most fundamental human rights are being violated."
----Bolivian Reform President Evo Morales

FDR said much the same thing in 1944 with his Economic Bill of Rights.
Bolivian President Evo Morales sounds more like FDR than anyone in the Democratic Party Leadership.



Who will STAND and FIGHT for THIS American Majority?
You will know them by their WORKS,
not by their excuses.

[wysimdnwyg]

202. +1

This is the kind of thing that makes me want to be able to rec individual posts.

[Lasher]

236. Reagan was a neoliberal. So is GWB.

So is Obama. Don't believe me? Consider what Obama does, not what he says, and see how he lines up with these characteristics of neoliberalism:

THE RULE OF THE MARKET. Liberating "free" enterprise or private enterprise from any bonds imposed by the government (the state) no matter how much social damage this causes. Greater openness to international trade and investment, as in NAFTA. Reduce wages by de-unionizing workers and eliminating workers' rights that had been won over many years of struggle. No more price controls. All in all, total freedom of movement for capital, goods and services. To convince us this is good for us, they say "an unregulated market is the best way to increase economic growth, which will ultimately benefit everyone." It's like Reagan's "supply-side" and "trickle-down" economics -- but somehow the wealth didn't trickle down very much.

CUTTING PUBLIC EXPENDITURE FOR SOCIAL SERVICES like education and health care. REDUCING THE SAFETY-NET FOR THE POOR, and even maintenance of roads, bridges, water supply -- again in the name of reducing government's role. Of course, they don't oppose government subsidies and tax benefits for business.

DEREGULATION. Reduce government regulation of everything that could diminsh profits, including protecting the environmentand safety on the job.

PRIVATIZATION. Sell state-owned enterprises, goods and services to private investors. This includes banks, key industries, railroads, toll highways, electricity, schools, hospitals and even fresh water. Although usually done in the name of greater efficiency, which is often needed, privatization has mainly had the effect of concentrating wealth even more in a few hands and making the public pay even more for its needs.

ELIMINATING THE CONCEPT OF "THE PUBLIC GOOD" or "COMMUNITY" and replacing it with "individual responsibility." Pressuring the poorest people in a society to find solutions to their lack of health care, education and social security all by themselves -- then blaming them, if they fail, as "lazy."

http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=376

[muffin1]

49. A. Fucking. Men.

:thumbsup:

[erodriguez]

69. Shazam!

[MissDeeds]

176. +1

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jakes Progress]

62. It's a fetish.

[Name removed]

77. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sulphurdunn]

157. Your positions have been short

on facts and long on personal attacks.

[QC]

82. No one would pay for work of such poor quality. n/t

[ClarkUSA]

85. Yet Jane Hamsher gets paid by Republicans to help them via her media company.

She's obviously doing good work for them via FDL!

[noiretextatique]

177. jane is.....ralph nader?!

in drag :scared: so she has CLIENTS who are republicans..i do too.

[Divine Discontent]

94. now come on... you know better than that, my friend!

Faux Noise pays asshats to sell poor quality BS all day long! So, well... you know! :rofl:

[tekisui]

148. It is very likely.

[Name removed]

115. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JDPriestly]

122. Ridiculous, ClarkUSA. What is your evidence that Jane Hamsher

is on the Republican payroll?

I can give you evidence that Geithner owes his appointment to the NY Fed to Pete Peterson, conservative Republican and arch-foe of Social Security. That throws great suspicion in my mind as to whether Obama came into office and appointed Geithner with the goal of destroying Social Security. Why else would he appoint Geithner after Geithner totally failed at his job at the New York Fed?

In fact, just Google Geithner, Peterson and New York Fed and you will probably find the website I found with the information about Geithner's appointment -- assuming they haven't cleaned up the record.

OK. I'm a softy. Why should I ask you to do any work?

Here is the article about Geithner's appointment

http://www.newyorkfed.org/newsevents/news_archive/aboutthefed/2003/oa031015.html

Now, I have shown you my evidence. You show me yours.

Where is your evidence that Jane Hamsher receives paychecks from the Republican Party?

If I don't hear from you, I will know that you don't have any.

[Jakes Progress]

220. Tell him to "prove it". It's his catch phrase.

Of course he never does it himself.

[truth2power]

141. How about addressing rhe ISSUE instead of the person. n/t

[emulatorloo]

151. Hamsher gets paid to bloviate and sensationalize. I have found her to be unreliable in the past

Just as I have found Glenn Beck unreliable.

I feel no more need to address The ISSUES of Hamsher's rants than I do Beck's rants.

Neither are credible.

[saras]

184. So you respond to a request for facts with more unsubstantiated smears - good job.

I can point to data that demonstrates Glenn Beck unreliable - there's so much of it on this board I don't really feel a need to point anyone to any.

Again the request for actual data - do you have any data more solid than namecalling to justify these accusations?

[truth2power]

187. You're correct, saras. It's much easier to attack the messenger...

There are so many bloggers and journalists who are persona non grata around here, anymore, that you need a scorecard to keep track.

In that regard, I'm still waiting for a response to my question here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=702990&mesg_id=704030 I've asked for the umpteenth time.

[sulphurdunn]

150. Hey man,

if go too far down the rabbit hole, down looks like up. :crazy:

[Beacool]

179. Yeah, of course...........

According to you, and many Obama defenders on this board, anyone who criticizes Obama on any issue is a "puma".

Please, give me a break!!!!

:crazy:

[Occulus]

180. Do these people realize that some may associate THEM with Obama?

As in, "If these are his most ardent supporters and they're so fucking blind, what does that say about their man?"

Do you think that ever crosses their minds, that they might be doing more harm than good on these boards?

[Beacool]

186. I'm past the point of caring.

I don't think that they get it. The country keeps going further into an economic abyss. The payroll rates for June were released today. The private sector only added 18,000 new jobs. 18,000 in a nation of 300M???????

The unemployment rate shot up to 9.2%. Meanwhile, you got Plouffe stating like an idiot on Wednesday that unemployment won't matter in the 2012 election. On what world do these people live??? It's definitely not on planet earth.

:crazy:

[AverageJoe90]

254. Seriously?

That would suck hard. I always liked FireDogLake and always hated Norquist for his connections to various Islamist groups.........

[Fuddnik]

51. Raul Grijalva said on Maddow tonight, They're 100% opposed to it.

And Peter Welch, on the Ed Show, said the same thing.

Welch also added that Obama threw them under the bus.

I don't know the source of that other phony story, but I saw these two tonight with my own eyes.

[ClarkUSA]

79. His statement refutes your claim. How can he be against something he's already said he's for?

Considering nothing has been decided, how can anyone with a shred of credibility say President Obama "threw them under the bus"?

[Fuddnik]

119. Not my claim.

I watched them say it. On live TV.

And take it up with Welch (D-VT). He said it, not me.

[Jakes Progress]

170. You mean your version of an unattributed source of a dubious story.

You love blind leads.

[jtown1123]

200. GRijalva's press person said that initial story was inaccurate. They oppose it.

[Divernan]

207. That's an excellent question for Obama.

How can he be against something he's already said for? Evidently that comes easy to Obama.
All those campaign promises re things he's already said he's for - closing Guantanamo, walking the protest lines with the union members, letting those tax cuts for the wealthy expire, single payer universal health care, etc., etc.

[FedUp_Queer]

209. Are you still here?

Don't you have a president to fellate or something?

[Jakes Progress]

60. Do you have anything other than a self-referincing link for that?

Because it is a load of crap.

[rhett o rick]

96. So what's your point? Let the bastards kill Social Security? Is that what you want?

I wouldnt be surprised.

[rhett o rick]

97. So what's your point? Let the bastards kill Social Security? Is that what you want?

I wouldnt be surprised.

[JackRiddler]

244. No, the point is much simpler than that: Shut up and listen to your "leaders."

[dbonds]

114. Do you know the caucus in my house is opposed to SS being on the table?

That is what matters. I don't care how many spin-miesters try to get me to think it will be fine. It won't.

[spooked911]

133. uh, not really, considering the message was blocked

presumably for lack of verification

[blindpig]

139. Which goes to show that they ain't worth spit. n/t

[MNBrewer]

149. House Progressive Caucus opposed to Social Security's inclusion in deficit talks

<http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/07/07/992195/-House-Progressive-Caucus-opposed-to-Social-Securitys-inclusion-in-deficittalks>

[JackRiddler]

243. If true, then that would be very cowardly and un-progressive of them.

Do you have any other authorities you care to cite with programmatic positions, in lieu of using argument, logic or fact to persuade anyone of your own stance?

Do you even have a stance, or do you wait for political leaders to hand it down for you?

[ClarkUSA]

2. Has PUMA Jane explained why she is helping Republicans via her media company yet?

I'd love to know what her clients' names are. Wouldn't you?

[blue neen]

7. Here's a pretty interesting article:

http://exiledonline.com/jane-hamsher-unplugged-and-unhinged-dare-to-criticize-hamshers-appalling-labor-record-and-this-is-what-youll-get/

[Better Believe It]

11. Oh wonderful. A National Enquirer type smear against her.

It's way off topic!

That's an old technique used to disrupt honest debate and discussion.

[blue neen]

14. I'm sorry you don't agree.

IMHO, it is quite relevant, in light of the fact that the discussion is about Democratic values and principles.

In fact, the response was to another poster, not to you.

[TheWraith]

16. The fact that she's paid by Republicans to help them win elections is VERY on topic. nt

[sulphurdunn]

155. Wrong.

that is an ad hominem fallacy. Whether of not she is a Republican fifth columnist is irrelevant to the verity or falsity of her argument, which bears no logical relationship to her.

[Bobbie Jo]

20. LOL

Irony Overload! :rofl:

On topic: don't take your victory lap too soon.

[Mojorabbit]

47. :) +100 nt

[ClarkUSA]

15. So PUMA Jane Hamsher went on the offensive against HuffPo boycott organizers?

:puke:

Thanks for the info, blue neen. :hi:

She's nothing but a Republican tool. Bookmarked for future use.

[blue neen]

21. .

:dem:

[Mojorabbit]

48. She is a hundred percent right on this issue. nt

[sulphurdunn]

154. Every post you have written

is an ad hominem attack against Jane Hamsher. Whether of not she is a Republican fifth columnist is irrelevant to the verity or falsity of her argument, which bears no logical relationship to her.

[Union Scribe]

57. ...as soon as Obama explains why he's helping Republicans

dismantle the things our party has fought for.

[sulphurdunn]

158. What does her client list

have to with what she wrote? Either it was true or not. Either it was stated as fact or opinion. Regardless, it bears no necessary relationship to her client list.

[TheWraith]

3. More smears from Republican mouthpiece Jane Hamsher.

Whose reaction to "the death of the Democratic Party," if it were actually happening, would be to cheer with her good buddy Grover Norquist.

[sulphurdunn]

161. Ad hominem fallacy

Argumentum ad hominem is the logical fallacy of attempting to undermine a speaker's argument by attacking the speaker instead of addressing the argument.

[inna]

238. low and despicable smear/slander from you right there, 'buddy"

fucking beyond disgusting, and reflects extremely poorly on you, to say the least -

hope you excuse me while i :puke:

[nc4bo]

5. +1 but still zero. Such little dears they are. nt

[blue neen]

10. "they"

Who are "they"?

[nc4bo]

13. !

The Un-Recommenders of course. I +1'd but the count remained zero.

[TheWraith]

17. Some here don't support the use of DU as a platform for Republican shills like Hamsher. nt

[Lorien]

18. That's why so many of us no longer support Obama. nt

[leeroysphitz]

30. +1

[Horse with no Name]

64. Oh Zing! n/t

[MissDeeds]

178. +1

[nc4bo]

22. So it doesn't matter if the message accurately reflects what many are thinking?

There's been nothing but post after post with similar content but because this particular person has a history, it means what she says completely lacks credibility?

:shrug:

[TheWraith]

23. Problem is, the message doesn't accurately reflect reality.

If someone's thinking doesn't reflect reality, that's their problem. But there's no reason to treat lies and propaganda as valid simply because someone believes it.

[nc4bo]

27. One person's reality may not necessarily be your own and vice versa.

It just depends on their own personal life situation.

Don't you think this reflects what is happening within the Democratic Party? Just because someone doesn't have the same POV as you or I we should automatically condemn or disregard everything they say?

[sulphurdunn]

162. The burden to prove the falsity

of others positions rest with you not them.

[rhett o rick]

99. When you make this a Democrat vs. Republican fight you expose yourself.

It's a corporatist vs. We The People fight. Many Democrats are corporatists.

[Enthusiast]

126. Obama took a position of unparalleled strength

and capitulated to a Republican Party in their death throes.

Every fucking poll shows the American people were outraged by the Ryan attack on medicare. The Republican Party was fatally wounded by the Ryan proposal and the subsequent anti-senior Republican House vote. How does Obama respond to this? He resuscitates a dead Republican party, he gives them mouth to mouth and rejuvenates them.

In so doing he forever damages the Democratic Party by demonstrating that the Democratic party is no longer the protector of the senior citizens, the poor and disabled. Not only that, his actions virtually guarantee that we will have a Republican president in 2012.

Obama is, for all intents and purposes, a filthy Republican.

If you have ANYTHING good to say about Obama, do not talk to me.

[NorthCarolina]

145. Lets get real, the Republican shills here on DU are primarily

the ones constantly attacking Jane with their ridiculous talking points. Just proves to me that as a Liberal she is apparently quite effective, and therefore viewed as a danger to the third-way crew.

[fascisthunter]

192. BINGO!

[Jakes Progress]

223. Nailed it in one. +100

[MouseFitzgerald]

6. Hamsher is great

As usual there will always be people trying to smear her without attempting in any way to dispute her points.

[AlabamaLibrul]

70. Bingo! Welcome to DU, MouseFitzgerald

[peace frog]

130. Jane Hamsher has always been one of my favs

and let the dumbfucks smear away. They got NOTHING.

[girl gone mad]

8. k & r

[sabrina 1]

9. Looks that way.

[StarburstClock]

12. I hope so, we need a real democratic party that is progressive

That will put an end to criminal wars, criminal banks and criminal politicians.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

19. Thank you,Jane!

I will fight with you, for both the country's well being and the soul of the Democratic Party.

[Faryn Balyncd]

25. K and R

[OmahaBlueDog]

26. You could also argue that we're seeing the death of the Republican party as we know it

Would Dwight Eisenhower relate to the views of Sarah Palin or Michelle Bachmann?

[nc4bo]

29. Haven't the Repubs been twitching for quite a while now? They're twitching, we're splitting

or at least it seems like it at times.

[quakerboy]

104. It might be more accurate to argue that we are seeing the death of

American Democracy as we have known it.

How would any of the early statesmen relate to the country as it now exists?

[OmahaBlueDog]

181. I've caught myself thinking that, but when you look at 19th century America..

...you see that we argued about many of the same basic concepts. The role of governments, Federalism. The role of the states. Taxation. Really - not much is new.

[Enthusiast]

128. They were dead twice but Obama

keeps resuscitating them.

[spooked911]

134. both parties are defunct, imo, they are both totally broken

we need a new system!!!

[Bluenorthwest]

31. Hamsher is absolutely spot on in this case.

Of course many here plug their ears and shout 'lalalala' when they hear anyone or anything other than hosannas for whatever turd they are trying to polish that day.

[Number23]

32. Between seeing the name "Jane Hamsher" and the particular posters Kicking and Recing

I couldn't unrec this fast enough.

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JackRiddler]

246. Because Pavlovian reactions are so much easier than moving that big brain of yours?

[LoZoccolo]

33. Fire Dog Lake: automatic unrecommend n/t

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jakes Progress]

219. Of course. Why read and learn. Knee-jerk response is eaiser than thinking.

[JackRiddler]

247. Yes sir, Mr. Commandant Sir!

[MilesColtrane]

34. All politics and content aside, she really needs an editor.

Somebody should tell her that these aren't sentences.

Or, at least the Democratic Party as most of us have known it. The one that has taken its identity in the modern era from FDR and the New Deal, from Keynsianism and the social safety net.

[WillyT]

35. Yep... K & R !!!

:kick:

[madrchsod]

36. sure isn`t the party of the ronald reagan...before he went to the dark side

it`s not the party of my dad and not the party i used to know.......

[Octafish]

37. What will replace my Party? Republicanlite?

That don't cut it for me.

[newspeak]

50. well, I'm still holding out for FDR's platform

Wait, FDR and all those people ideals are out and the golden calf Reagan and his deregulating serve my greedy rich friends ideals are in.

We've got one party going so far right, pushing them there by some rather willfully ignorant, me first nuts sponsored by corporate money, and another party attempting to be the new demopubs. They are not old republicans, neither side. Even Eisenhower knew that messing with SS was stupid. He also warned about the real threat of a monstrous out of control MIC. To me they both serve big business, one may give out a few crumbs and the other just panders to the truly delusional.

[blindpig]

140. Only one outfit gonna stand up for the people...

[Peacetrain]

38. Isn't Hampsher the one that called Erik Erickson (red state) an" honest broker"

the guy that called Michelle Obama a "marxist harpy

something is not right here

[ClarkUSA]

44. Ugh! How anyone can view Hamsher with anything but disgust and suspicion is beyond me.

I didn't know that. :puke:


Bookmarked.

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

54. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ClarkUSA]

65. FACT: "The Progressive Caucus DEFENDS President Obama on his Social Security Stance"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=702936&mesg_id=702936

Hat Tip: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/07/07/992157/-Progressive-Caucus-DEFENDS-President-Obama-on-his-Social-Security-Stance

Gee, I guess PUMA Jane has revealed her true colors as a Republican tool, eh? Has she revealed the list of the Republican clients that her media company helps?

[Jakes Progress]

66. Fact: That silly link is self-referential. It is a lie.

The parties discussed said just the opposite on the Maddow show tonight. You really can't go around basing your life on blind links on the Web.

[ClarkUSA]

Prove it.

FACT:

"The Progressive Caucus DEFENDS President Obama on his Social Security Stance"
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/07/07/992157/-Progressive-Caucus-DEFENDS-President-Obama-on-his-Social-Security-Stance

[Jakes Progress]

71. Only you would say "prove it" with that source.

I didn't know you were such a KOS fan. I noticed you didn't link to the original HuffPo story. Now you love Arianna?

Of course if you read the whole story, you find out the part you quoted was just a pulled section and that updates list the progressive groups that dispute the story. Plus we had members of the caucus on Maddow and Ed tonight (one of the one what was "quoted" in the story telling how Obama was throwing them under the bus. You know the real words from their mouths rather than the words someone wrote in a story with no attribution.

You really need to learn how to follow your stories.

All this begs the point. So your story is a crock. What matters is that you seemed to support cutting SS and Medicare as long as the president does. Is there anything the president could do that you wouldn't agree with. Of course you would have to know about issues and have a set of beliefs about principles and policies in advance. You couldn't just wait until Obama does something and then decide that that is what you think too.

[ClarkUSA]

72. lol! I have a quote from the head of the Progressive Caucus. You got nuthin'.

:rofl:

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ClarkUSA]

74. Funny how you can't prove it while I have a quote from the head of the Progressive Caucus.

Right here: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/07/07/992157/-Progressive-Caucus-DEFENDS-President-Obama-on-his-Social-Security-Stance

You got nuthin'. :)

[Jakes Progress]

78. You can't prove it. You have hearsay. I have words on the mouth.

I have two members of the caucus who say tho opposite of the bullshit story you use.

What's the matter? Don't know how to tune in Ed and Maddow? Or afraid to watch.

[ClarkUSA]

80. I just did. If his statement is hearsay, then everything is hearsay, incl. all the news claims.

:)

[Jakes Progress]

Only you would think a blind link is proof.

Or did you mean you just watched Maddow and Ed?

[ClarkUSA]

83. It is called a quote. Which is more than you have.

[Jakes Progress]

86. You trust the internets but don't believe the words from someone's mouth.

I think that says it all.

[ClarkUSA]

90. No proof yet?

[Jakes Progress]

93. Evidently nothing you are willing to see. Avoiding truth is your path to happiness.

How very reasonable. Just close your eyes. Stop up your ears. Then you won't see all the badness. For you, happiness reigns in your information-free zone.

[ClarkUSA]

113. Gee, I guess I can forego reading my take-out Chinese fortune cookies today.

:rofl:

[Name removed]

168. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ClarkUSA]

227. Still not a shred of proof, eh? ROFL!

:rofl:

[a2liberal]

109. Dude, WTF is wrong with you?

Hopefully this won't get me kicked off here or deleted, but I have to say it. The link you keep posting doesn't even directly quote them on what you say it does (it's only a paraphrasing and the direct quote is for an approximately opposite point). OTOH there is a live TV appearance with the people themselves saying things. Yet somehow you think your newspaper reporter saying someone said something is somehow a trump card? WTF?

[ClarkUSA]

112. WTF do you mean, dude? Can't you read a quote with a credible link?

One mo' time: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/07/07/992157/-Progressive-Caucus-DEFENDS-President-Obama-on-his-Social-Security-Stance

I have yet to read or see anything that contradicts the statements by the head of the Progressive Caucus Raul Grijalva and Barbara Lee. His quoted statement refutes your claim. How can he be against something he's already said he's for? Considering nothing has been decided, how can anyone with a shred of credibility say President Obama "threw them under the bus"?

[a2liberal]

143. What quoted statement?

Assuming honest intentions here... the only quote in that article is "We feel the discussions have been skewed up to this point," "It's incumbent upon the president to put what I believe are the real priorities on the table for deficit reduction.". The thing you keep referencing, about defending the president, is like I said before, not a direct quote but a paraphrasing. (Which doesn't necessarily discount it... I'm taking issue with you repeatedly insisting there's a quote in that article that ISN'T THERE)

[Jakes Progress]

167. You are assuming too much.

This poster does this all the time. "Prove it" and "You got nothin" are the only arrows in his quiver. Never reads rebuttal information. Never admits error.

Could be ignored, but these silly little back and forths are good for keeping an important OP high in the GDP section. When we started fussing yesterday, the OP only had about 300 reads. With little else added, it had over 1100 last night. The poster can't resist saying the same inane things over and over so it keeps the thread and the OP high on the list. Silly but it works.

JUst don't expect honest conversation.

[OnyxCollie]

172. These silly little back and forths are a good way of increasing revenue.

Clicks equal cash for someone who has a financial interest in this website.

It would also explain why the poster is able to consistently attack with impunity.

I'm not accusing, I'm just sayin'.

[Jakes Progress]

174. Attack with impunity or attack with inanity?

We all know the chinks in the DU armor.

[fascisthunter]

193. I Too Thought about That

[a2liberal]

225. Maybe I was...

I like to assume good faith in general, though it does sometimes cause me problems. one of the downsides of being liberal...

I am also painfully aware that with my low post count and relative newness, I need to tread carefully here to avoid offending the wrong people, being labeled a troll, or being TSed :)

[sulphurdunn]

164. Yessiree.

No better proof that a quote from a politician. :rofl:

[eilen]

125. Who fucking cares what politician agrees with it

It is wrong and the American People will vote against it. Your pendantic repetitive posts can't make it right.

[Enthusiast]

129. Fuck the The Progressive Caucus, too, I guess.

This is a bridge too far. Obama knew it. It was a calculated act.

[Jakes Progress]

103. They just want to avoid the WH press release bullshit.

[Solomon]

144. Hey, she's bashing Obama ain't she?

Well there you go. She'll be quite popular here no matter what her agenda is.

[Missy Vixen]

110. Her surname is "Hamsher".

If you're unable to refer to her by her correct surname, one can only surmise that you're not a credible source.

[Ikonoklast]

43. Grover Hamsher? Unrec.

She wishes the Democratic Party would go away; it would make her more money.

[theFrankFactor]

45. Supporting Obama IS supporting the destruction of Progressive policy.

To think that this sad, pathetic, sell-out is GOOD for Liberals, Democrats and Progressives reveals a serious case of lowerered standards. If someone advocates for Progressive policy and the accomplishmends of FDR we're supposed to believe THEY are right wing shills? Hilarious if not for the fact that it is so destructive to the Democratic party's credibility. Jane, by pushing the party left, is a shill? But apologists for the spineless wonder and his BLUEdogian "democrats" are somehow helpful? Sorry, I'm not THAT stupid.

[defendandprotect]

87. +1000% --

Terrific post -- !!

[OwnedByFerrets]

46. Actually, we are watching the death of America as we've known it

[blkmusclmachine]

55. Well, they have started calling themselves the "New Dem's."

That might be a clue.

[Jakes Progress]

56. NeoDems.

[Starry Messenger]

58. k&r

[Le Taz Hot]

59. We've been watching it since Clinton.

The second he sold out to the corporations the Democratic Party was finished.

[slay]

68. +1

yep

[slay]

67. It's been dead for years - but yeah, this is the funeral

pretty much.

[defendandprotect]

84. Agree -- I'm thinking of it kinda like the attack on Julius Caesar -- knives buried deep --

[jefferson_dem]

76. Hamsher.

:spray:

Unrec.

Being lectured on Democratic values by her is beyond comedic. Hamsher wouldn't know what's good for the Democratic Party... as she has saddled up with the Republicans to oppose every signature initiative promoted by the Party in the past two years.

[defendandprotect]

81. Obviously, there has been too much faith and trust in the Democratic Party of Koch Bros/DLC --

but I think we are learning that capitalism is an evil which also needs to fall --

Democracy and Equality for All are in our hearts -- we may not be living it --

but those dreams and that struggle I think will always be active within us --



:)



And, btw, if you read the Al Gore article in Rolling Stone what he is describing

is fascism without actually using the word -- a Goebbels' style corporate press --

all delivering "dysfunctional government" -- and Obama "paralyzed" --

A Congress setting its schedule around its fund raising -- except for votes --

And a Congress controlled by oil and coal industries --

[ClarkUSA]

88. PUMA Jane sure is helping kill the Democratic Party by being on the payroll of Republicans...

... via her media company.

She's doing good work for them via FDL, for example. :puke:

[Bryn]

100. OK, what about DLCers who are on Koch Brothers payroll?

What the hell is "Third Way"??????????? This is no Democratic Party at all.

[ClarkUSA]

111. Oh, you mean like some people's newest 2016 presidential darling, Andrew Cuomo?

:puke:

[sulphurdunn]

166. Are you trying to plant a meme?

I have followed your posts throughout this discussion and it always come back to attacking Jane Hamsher and not her argument. Why is that? :shrug:

[Jakes Progress]

171. Because he doesn't understand

what is being said. His is a simple task. Just get in the way and fester. They think it helps them keep any criticism of Obama from being read. In this case, his spouting keeps the thread and OP popping to the top of the GDP forum.

[Blue-Jay]

91. Good for Jane. She's cashing in.

[Kall]

101. Sorry, Jane is right

Some people may not want to hear it, but it needs to be said. And not admitting the truth of it is just fooling yourselves.

Frankly, this is the logical outcome of all the excuses people smart enough to know better have been making for this miserable President through every single blundering, horrible deal he's made on behalf of people he ostensibly represents. FDL has not been among them. If Obama is not doing these things by design, he's absolutely incompetent and in over his head - and I can't believe anybody could be so terminally stupid to "negotiate" with hostage-takers repeatedly in the way he does if he's sincerely opposed to the repeated results.

The too-small stimulus. The Billy Tauzin meetings. The health care bill. The Bush tax cut deal. The government shutdown deal. And now putting Medicare and Social Security on the chopping block (apparently accountability and transparency means holding a week of backroom meetings with John Boehner out of the public eye to determine how to cut Medicare and Social Security, and keeping the Democratic caucus out of the loop). All in a period of 9-10% "official" unemployment. Every step of the way, the excuses ran the gamut of "Trust him, he's playing 11-dimensional chess, you don't see his long game" to "You can't actually expect him to deliver on his promises."

The echo chamber of excuses from people who know better is a big reason why the Democratic Party is where it is.

[coalition_unwilling]

165. Wish I could 'rec your response. I hope you will consider making

it an OP of its own.

[DesertFlower]

102. my grandfather was president of a

democratic club for most of his adult life. he must be turning over in his grave.

[cliffordu]

105. This train is never late.

Word.

[Tx4obama]

106. What we're watching is a bunch of folks running in circles in a tizzy without any FACTS. n/t

[fascisthunter]

194. yuh

don't get too worked up

[Tx4obama]

107. Oh good Lord, the article is by Jane Hamsher. LOL n/t

[JTFrog]

152. Indeed, lol. n/t

[Safetykitten]

108. Jane is the best. Love her.

[inna]

118. +1,000

[Autumn]

228. I've decided I really like her. She pisses off all the right people.

I figure if they hate her as much as they do, she must be right. :thumbsup:

[dbonds]

117. So that new Democratic Party logo really was the Down button.

Or maybe a sigil for Death of the party.

[TorchTheWitch]

120. The Dem party died with Reagan

It's just taken this long for most people to smell the corpse. When Reagan destroyed the unions the Dem party had no where to go for the big money to win elections. So they chose to throw in the towel and join the Repubs in courting the big biz donors... and thus became beholden to them. This is why Clinton was Repub lite. There has been no party representative of the regular working folks ever since... the Dems just spent decades pretending they did while selling us out at every turn. Now it's just blatant, and they don't bother doing much to hide who they really represent anymore since they convinced us we "had no where else to go." There is no R vs. D and hasn't been for decades. All that is nothing but smoke and mirrors to keep people imagining there's any real difference between the parties and to preserve the illusion of democracy.

Wake up and smell the remains of that decomposed corpse.

[slay]

121. Excellent post - you are so right

i wish others here would realize the same thing.

[Still Waters]

234. When I am thinking the worst my mind goes to this also

Along with destroying the unions, by branding the Republicans as the Christian party and the Patriotic party the Democrats have had to constantly chase after a rapidly shifting right center. I am afraid that if Obama loses in 2012 the Democratic party will really be just about completely marginalized.

[Enthusiast]

123. Obama's mission accomplished.

Fact.

[pocoloco]

212. Oh? They let him in the club??

He got to fuck Geronimo's Skull?

[democrank]

127. K & R

Being "less awful than George Bush" is nothing to be proud of, especially since we`re now cheering for many of Bush`s policies that are now Obama`s.

[tomp]

131. the democratic party, as a force for the poor,.....

....working and middle classes, died long, long ago.

if you wish to fight you had better do it outside the democratic party.

[florida08]

132. Really don't understand these attacks on Hamsher

Yeah she teamed up with Norquist in calling for the resignation of Rahm Emanuel. Hell I would have done the same thing. His role in Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac was quite disturbing. Hamsher has been diligent in her support for Bradley Manning as well as driving David House to see him. What has been Obama's reaction to Manning? Oh yeah " he broke the law".

Hamsher also called on the Progressive Caucus to vote against any health care reform that didn't have a public option. Oh and she collaborated with Markos Moulitsas in promoting FDL and Vaster books one of which was the story of Valerie Plame by Marcy Wheeler. Hamsher promoted this with FDL money donations.

Unless there is proof of her 'covert treachery' I will continue to follow her on Twitter and read her website. She won an award for her coverage of Plame btw.

[spooked911]

135. Yeah, I don't get it either

I can only figure its from Obama supporters who don't like her criticism of him

[Puglover]

163. It's the same 10-15 people

who show up like clockwork. I was never a fan of ignore but since I threw all of them on my list DU is more pleasant,cordial and informative. People disagree,agree and talk minus all the nastiness. And that is what at least IMHO a message board is supposed to be.

Hamsher bugs me sometimes and at others is spot on. She really isn't worth a never ending screaming fight everytime someone posts one of her pieces.

[fascisthunter]

147. it's a cheap trick... to smear her

[Jakes Progress]

224. When they can't refute the reasoning, they attack the messenger.

It's cowardly and dishonest, but it's the only hand they have to play given the polities and behaviors that they have to try and defend.

[Better Believe It]

255. That happens everyday with many posts.

[Pholus]

136. This thread makes me feel like I'm reading a Harbor Freight ad.

Hamsher is getting trashed by people who can't be bothered to comment on the Orrin Hatch thread on the next link down.

I guess it's showing where the priorities are.

[SidDithers]

137. And Jane couldn't be happier...

Fuck Jane Hamsher.

Sid

[sulphurdunn]

169. Is this wishful thinking?

:loveya:

[spooked911]

206. how do you know she couldn't be happier?

[SidDithers]

211. ...

Sid

[spooked911]

213. that's not an answer

but thanks for the memories

[INdemo]

138. so who do we draft to primary Obama..lets see

Al Gore is not too old,there is Howard Dean,Sen. Whitehouse, ??? and then we could draft the Independent Bernie Sanders..We could defeat Obama and win in 2012 with a real progressive but we have to start now.

[1stBunny]

142. I'm so terribly disappointed in President Obama

He was not who we thought he was! :cry:

[Name removed]

146. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[emulatorloo]

153. I'm pretty far left, I don't find Hamsher' credible. On Tv she comes across as ill-informed

and rhetorically dishonest. That's my opinion based on seeing her and reading her. She has a job to do, and that job is to get hits on her website. Her strategy to do that is to distort and sensationalize.

[blindpig]

173. "the Democratic Party as most of us have known it"...

never existed. People have been projecting their hopes and desires upon a party which gladly accepts their delusions and proceeds to work for the ruling class for over a half century. A few words here, a gesture there, and 'mebbe they'll be better next time'.

We should be grateful that the cat is out of the bag, that clarity is valuable.

[Marrah_G]

175. I'm so numb now

I've come to the conclusion that I have no party that represents me on the national level. I'm going to focus on the local level.

[woo me with science]

183. K&R nt

[VeryConfused]

185. More wishful thinking on Jane's part

At least she is dropping the pretense that she isn't anything more than a paid GOP hack

[bvar22]

201. Another K&R for Jane Hamsher,

and Ralph Nader,

and Micheal Moore,

and Cindy Sheehan,

and Code Pink,

and Jim Hightower,

and Amy Goodman,

and Julian Assange (wikileaks),

and Dennis Kucinich ("Medicare for ALL is cheaper"),

and FDR.

I LOVE people who tell the TRUTH.


"There are forces within the Democratic Party who want us to sound like kinder, gentler Republicans.
I want a party that will stand up for working Americans."
---Paul Wellstone

[Better Believe It]

253. You must be one of those professional pinkos!

:)

[Javaman]

205. Naaa, we've gone past that. we are into Zombie Democratic Party.

it has all the appearances of the party, it has all the slogans of the party, but at its core, its life has long been dead.

It just sort of staggers about, shambling after anything that attracts its thirst of brains, or in the party's case, a clue.

[struggle4progress]

208. Still more of Hamsher's now-familiar lying and wedge-driving

[Zen Democrat]

210. Jane Hamsher is a dedicated PUMA. I can't stand her.

[johnaries]

214. Which is what Hamsher wants - but it's not happening.

And she's lying again. What she states here is nothing even close to the truth.

[Butch350]

215. What we are watching is the death of ALL POLITICAL PARTIES

whether we know it or not. The new system will eventually control of every aspect of our lives.
Voting will become or already is an illussion.

So the death of the democratic party? What's the big deal?

But this is an Eloquent thread.

[Name removed]

229. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Palmer Eldritch]

239. Jane Hamsher is no Democrat.

[Better Believe It]

241. So is she a socialist, an independent progressive, a liberal libertarian, etc.,?

In your opinion.

[burning rain]

242. This is a hell of a country.

We have a center-right party, the Democrats, and an extreme-right party, the GOP. Our Democrats are to the right of Britain's Tories, for God's sake.

[Better Believe It]

245. Welcome to the two conservative party system.

Sure beats a multi-party system!

[Poll_Blind]

249. Interestingly, the Israeli political scene is very similar, currently.

The driving force behind that shift, though, has more to do with religious/ideological factions among new immigrants to the country. In our case, it appears to be more related to money and influence's control over politicians elected to do something other than what they have been.

PB

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

248. When you flip the coin and it always comes up Republican...

:think:

[ClarkUSA]

251. Are you talking about PUMA Jane's media company clients or her Kill The Bill ally Grover Norquist?

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

252. Neither.

I'm talking about the country.

:think: