No, I will not

[MadHound]

I have worked and voted for Democratic presidential candidates for nearly forty years, starting when I was eleven, working for George McGovern. That campaign gave me a quick, rude awakening about Democratic politics, as the powers that be in the party, who wanted their handpicked man Muskie to get the nod, undercut McGovern at every turn.

Yet still I worked for the party.

Between then and now I have either worked for or donated to, and voted for every single Democratic presidential candidate. Despite reservations about their character, their ability to fight, their actions, despite the fact that they have dragged the party ever further towards the right.

I have bought into that old meme of voting for the lesser of two evils.

Not anymore, not if Obama and the Democrats cut Social Security and/or Medicare/Medicaid.

No, I will not.

I will not support a president who is putting my future, my retirement in jeopardy, especially as he continues to attack my career, my profession as an educator. I will not support a president who puts the life of my elderly and disabled mother on the chopping block while millionaires and billionaires continue to reap the benefits of the tax cuts that this man extended.

No, I will not.

Call me what you will, flame me if you must, but recognize that there comes a point in time when you have to send a message about where you stand, and just how much shit you will take from your elected leaders. Obama is counting on us to continue to take his shit, as he goes where no Democrat has gone before.

No, I will not.

These are our elected representatives, and as such there is only one way to hold them accountable. Letters, phone calls, emails, outrage, polls, none of these seem to sway them. So it comes to this, the last way to hold them accountable, your vote, your support. If they are to be held responsible for their actions, you cannot continue to give them your vote, your support.

I will hold Obama and the Democrats who support this insanity responsible. I suggest you do the same. It is the only way we have left short of a revolution.

[MineralMan]

1. If you aren't going to help, then please stand aside.

We are not going to let the Republicans win. It will not happen.

[boston bean]

2. Are you sure you aren't helping the republican (s) win? nt

[MineralMan]

7. Ask Al Franken. Ask Betty McCollum, if you know who she is.

I helped them get elected. Yes, I'm sure.

[Poll_Blind]

11. He was clear he's only holding those who support it, responsible. I doubt Franken would..

...support such absolute nonsense.

PB

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bluenorthwest]

53. In other news, Minnesota is shutdown by Republicans in

charge, so perhaps the block did well, but as a whole, MN is in the hands of the nutters, shutdown and looking crazed. So how's that working out? Seems to me they have extreme righties and moderate righties who let them do as they wish politely then whine about it later.
http://www.minnpost.com/stories/2011/07/08/29848/minnesotas_reputation_taking_a_hit_with_government_shutdown

[liberation]

71. Yeah, Franken and McCollum could not have been elected if it weren't for you

Anonymous arguments to authority always take all sorts of hilarious tangents.

[Devil_Fish]

169. personally, I am going to write in Al Franken for president. It will make no difference except to me

I can't vote for any one else. I will write in D.K. as V.P.

[alarimer]

42. The Republicans are on both sides of the aisle.

There is not much difference anymore.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[gateley]

5. Not funny about the election. As I keep saying, you think

we have it bad now, just wait until we hand it back over to the Republicans if we don't vote or vote for a third party.

And really, nice piece and I understand your viewpoint, but let's wait and see what happens. Even if Obama hands the Congress something that actually reduces benefits (which we don't know for sure), the House says they won't support it.

So we have to see what the outcome will be.

[boston bean]

19. send the message now in hopes of some real representation

if not, just sit back and wait for the democrats to become real republicans.

That's our choice, right?

[gateley]

28. I have phoned and e-mailed the WH and my congressperson

almost daily since this started getting dicey. The other day I called the WH 3 times! And even though my Congressman is one of the good ones, I just keep dropping and leaving messages that he's got a lot of support, so do the right thing.

So I'm hardly just sitting back.

And you're undermining a LOT of Democrats who aren't even NEAR center! :eyes:

[Marr]

59. You think the Republicans would ever be able to attack Social Security on their own?

GW Bush tried it, and was impaled on his own stupidity. No, it takes a "Democrat" like Obama to do undermine Social Security.

[ihavenobias]

166. Bingo. n/t

[JDPriestly]

140. Your logic is the logic of a person with Stockholm Syndrome.

My captors are my friends.

Obama's appointments give away the fact that he doublecrossed the American people. He never was the person he pretended to be in the pre-election debates in 2008.

He has betrayed the values of the Democratic Party. We cannot acquiesce to that betrayal.

It will lead to much worse things.

Now is the time to make it clear to Obama that we need new leadership in the Democratic Party. He has failed.

[Myrina]

142. +100

I don't know why so many here refuse to understand that.

[davidwparker]

149. +1

[joshdawg]

159. Yes!

I've said the same thing.
Don't vote: republicans win.
Vote for a third party: republicans win.
Vote republican?....... Don't be stupid.

[Bandit]

48. Don't you know if you don't support Obama, the boogyman will get in there

:shrug:

[awoke_in_2003]

109. well, you know....

you're either with us or against us :sarcasm:

[dbonds]

10. What's called a Dem today was a republican 25 years ago.

So in that way they have already won no matter which way you vote.

[MannyGoldstein]

13. The third-way swine handed them the House in 2010

Now they're handing them the rest.

Fixing problems wins elections; screwing people a little less than the Republicans does not.

[davidwparker]

150. +1

[Tesha]

23. What we will "let" or not "let" doesn't seem to matter much anymore. (NT)

[robinlynne]

24. They ARE winning. Right now. That is the point.

[sudopod]

43. What exactly do you mean by "stand aside"?

He's saying stuff on the internet.

[tavalon]

45. Have you not noticed that many of us, have, in fact, stepped to the side?

I'm doing local politics this year and will only change that stance if we primary Obama with Dean.

[peace4ever]

46. you did a poor job in 2010

following 3rd way reTHUG lite methods.

what makes you think you will do any better now. i say it is a losing strategy all around.

[Bake]

49. Help them win? They've already won.

The "center" has moved so far to the right that Nixon and Reagan look like liberals.

The Dems are selling out Social Security and Medicare to the "We Can't Afford It" crowd -- by the way, we "can't afford it" only becuase they (and by "they" I mean the Des) gave so many tax cuts to the wealthy.

They've already won. The people who used to be moderates are now the "fringe left Socialists."

I'd say they've already won.

Bake

[_ed_]

51. A Republican won in 2008

His name is Obama.

[krabigirl]

56. Lol, look, if Obama or a Romney type republican wins, nothing would change,

Please enlighten me as to how they would be at all different. Face it, Obama is a corporate republican.

[JohnnyRingo]

64. I'm supporting Ralph Nader for president.

After all, we all there isn't a dime's worth of difference between Al Gore and George Bush.
Deja Vu.

[rhett o rick]

107. Finally you get it. nm

[Hawkowl]

80. No, You're helping to kill the Democratic agenda

It is apologists like you, who are betraying the centuries old Democratic values, by not drawing a line in the sand. I am sick and infuriated at being attacked for standing on principles when others have spines like wet noodles and will do anything to support their "leader" even when he leads us all into oblivion.

[stockholmer]

89. you are the victim of false 2-party, false left-right paradigm thinking, this is classical insanity

Supporting the same thing that has betrayed your core values over and over, yet expecting different results each and every time you renew your support. Both parties are bought and paid for stooges of the systemic controllers. The lesser of two evils is still evil.

Unfortunately, given the ham-stringing nature of the US political federal infrastructure, it will take a kamikaze election or two to divest enough support from the corrupted, scoundrel-laden Democratic party to force a true social democracy-supporting alternative to the Republicrat/Demican tyranny of the banksters.

If you continue to support the Democrats as they currently are constituted, you will NEVER get anywhere near to a healthy society.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

99. Zing, Woo, Yeah!

:woohoo:

[rhett o rick]

108. And if you arent going to fight for Democatic principles, then get out of our party. nm

[cwydro]

138. Woohoo!

Love it or leave it huh?

Reminds me of the 60's and the Nixon assholes.

[rhett o rick]

164. I am glad you got it. One of the few things Boy-Bush got right is that there are only two sides in

this fight. The corporatists and the People. New-Democrats side with the corporations. There is no, "I am in the middle, I am central, I cant make up my mind if the capitalists are killing us or not"

There are really only two sides.

[cwydro]

173. Nice try.

I got it all right.

[sunnystarr]

154. Why not tell the DINO's to get out instead??

Why not leave the Democratic Party to the REAL democrats??

[rhett o rick]

163. I thought that's what I was doing. nm

[mike_c]

119. that's an utterly pyrrhic victory, don't you think...?

I mean, what do we win when we reelect democrats who act like republicans? At least they have a D after their name? That's what we're reduced to these days?

[neoralme]

Dupe

[neoralme]

125. I agreed with you two weeks ago. Now, if Obama cuts SS and

Medicare he has no chance of winning, not even remotely. I talk to Seniors every other day because of my wife's work. They view Obama very badly. Obama may win in one group. That's it.

[Skittles]

127. I will support DEMOCRATS

not this fucking garbage

[defendandprotect]

137. "Stand aside" and make way for the "third way" .... ?

Didn't Koch Bros. do enough damage to the party over 20 years with the DLC?

This huge bloc of liberal voters understands now that voting for the lesser evil

only moves the party and Congress to the right --

[proud2BlibKansan]

156. They already won

Where ya been?

[lark]

161. Repugs won

they got their trojan horse, Obama.

[DeSwiss]

4. Same here. - K&R n/t

[Hell Hath No Fury]

6. We have to hold them accountable to US.

And the only way to do that is through our wallets and our votes. They have got to get the message loud and clear that we mean business and are willing to go to the wall on this. :mad:

[WillyT]

8. + 1,000,000,000... What You Said !!! - HUGE K & R !!!

:yourock:

:bounce:

:patriot:

:hi:

:kick:

[Autumn]

9. Good, and don't you fucking step aside.

the Democrats want to do this ,make them fucking stomp on us. K/R

[PeaceNikki]

14. There are plenty of places you can go advocate NOT voting for Democrats.

I'd like to think this is not one of those places.

I'm in WI and we know firsthand what that gets us. Go work on some local Dem campaigns if you are bothered by the national party, but giving up and advocating not voting Democratic is shitty.

[boston bean]

16. please re read the post, you misconstrued it somehow. nt

[PeaceNikki]

18. I think " you cannot continue to give them your vote" is crystal clear, thanks.

[boston bean]

22. "I will hold Obama and the Democrats who support this insanity responsible."

is pretty clear. the poster is not saying don't vote for any democrat, he is not saying vote third party, he is not saying vote for a republican. He is saying let them know there is a response to their actions.

[gkhouston]

30. *Is* someone who would support cutting our safety net a Democrat? n/t

[boston bean]

37. not in my book.

[JohnnyRingo]

88. I thought the post was a pretty clear cut ultimatum for Obama and the party in general

The poster stated that he would not vote for re-election or support democrats in 2012. Certainly, that leaves few options including not participating or voting for the other side. Either of those options is a Rush Limbaugh dream come true. He's been advocating for Democrats to stay home for years so "educated" voters like himself can elect candidates that he approves.

Indeed, if this poster called the "Excellence in Broadcasting" network today with this outline, he'd be assured all the airtime he wants on Limbaugh's show while ElRushbo grunts his assent and lauds him as a smart member of the "Democrat" party.

He explicitly invited flames, and I have a lighter handy.

[PeaceNikki]

101. I find it ridiculous, defeatist and melodramatic

[MadHound]

47. So tell me, how else do you hold your elected leaders responsible for their actions?

And please, don't say through the primary process. In the case of many big names, including the president, the primary game is rigged from the beginning by the party itself.

[PeaceNikki]

92. National party leaders don't appear out of thin fucking air. Start in your backyard.

Work on building up and supporting local progressive candidates that will be the leaders of tomorrow.

Or just give up and advocate not voting Dem... that'll fucking help. :eyes:

[_ed_]

52. There are also plenty of places to shill for corporate whores

Maybe this site should be for people who support Democratic principles, not just "Democratic" politicians. Maybe this site should be for ideas over people. Principle over party.

Or we could just shill for whatever corporate whore is currently running for office.

[PeaceNikki]

93. oh. the drama.

How about you and the OP focus on local Democrats?

[rhett o rick]

111. Your name might make one think you support peace in lieu of war. Are you satisfied

with the Congressional Democrats and President's stand on continuous war? If you are, maybe you need a new name.

[PeaceNikki]

115. The post you replied to said:

"Go work on some local Dem campaigns if you are bothered by the national party, but giving up and advocating not voting Democratic is shitty."

[rhett o rick]

162. I of course know what your post said. I was just wondering if you really were for peace or not.

You see, if you really support peace, I would think it would be difficult for you to stand behind the president as he continues Bush's wars and engages in new wars. Your name suggests you support peace, your posts suggest you support the president's war posture. Some thing smells in Denmark, if you know what I mean.

[PeaceNikki]

165. What exactly "suggests I support the president's war posture"?

That I am telling people to support their local Dems? That's insane.

[rhett o rick]

168. If I misunderstood, I apologize. nm

[PeaceNikki]

170. You clearly did. Apology accepted.

Look, I am not happy with a lot of Obama's actions and all I am saying is, rather than give up on the party, look in your backyards.

I am in Wisconsin. We don't have the luxury of being dramatic right now. We learned a valuable lesson here in the past 7 months. We need to double down and bust our asses because IT MATTERS. We need to pull together and fight for what is right and we need to start in our backyards. Local politics matters. We are building our future national leaders and we have some great ones here in WI. Our Senate Democrats and Assemblymen are what all politicians should strive to be and I am working my ass off to help them. I protested in Madison with them, worked the recount, hugged and cried with them at state convention, am volunteering for the campaigns, attending county party meetings, working the polls... *we* are the Democratic party and it is what we make it. I am honored to be in the same party as Tammy Baldwin, Peter Braca, Lena Taylor, Gwen Moore, Russ Feingold and on and on and on.

Don't wash your hands of Democrats, work your asses off for the good ones. There are plenty.

[rhett o rick]

177. I am proud of you in WI. I think you may have started a movement. I have a terrible fight to keep

from being discouraged. During the Bush years it was easy. I knew who to fight. I worked hard to elect Obama. I was counting on the Democrats to turn back the horrors of Bush/Cheney. But they didnt and I feel like a naive fool. Of course they wont. After all, if you think about it, the Democrats didnt even put up a fight to stop Bush/Cheney. Some even kissed their asses. So were are we?

[JDPriestly]

141. My Congressman is a real Democrat, one of the best.

I will vote for him. Whether I will vote for Obama is a huge question. I will vote my conscience. If I decide I can't vote for him, it will be one of the saddest days of my life. But I will do what I believe is right for my country. And Obama has yet to prove that a vote for him is right for the country.

This is the worst mess I've ever seen in politics. A Democrat in the presidency who is under the thumb of Wall Street. Clinton was bad in that way, but we didn't know it. With Obama everything is known to us. We have no excuses. Not voting at all is better than voting for something we know to be very wrong for our country.

[David Gill]

15. I commend your conviction

But I would wait until we see what really happens. Even if Obama was discussing it, we don't know the context of that discussion. Nancy Pelosi has come out and said that the Democrats wouldn't support cutting either program. It could be a negotiation ploy, or it could be a total rumor.

Still, I agree we should voice our complaints!

[brooklynite]

17. What insanity are you upset about?

...considering that no proposal has apparently been made, and according to the President's spokesman, there has been no change in White House policy.

[bemildred]

21. You think opposing further cuts in the social safety net is "insanity"?

:puke:

[brooklynite]

25. What further cuts in the social safety net have been proposed?

I know what's been alleged, speculated and hyperventilated about; I also know the White House has said there's been no policy change on this.

[bemildred]

29. Never mind, I'll butt out. nt

[EFerrari]

31. Are you suggesting that Nancy Pelosi is responding to nothing?

Is she insane, too?

Sources: House Dems Stunned By White House Debt Proposal, Read Obama The Riot Act

Multiple senior House Democratic aides tell TPM that caucus members were caught off guard by news stories about President Obama's push for deeper deficit and spending reductions -- and particularly about the White House's willingness to cut Social Security as part of a grand bargain to raise the debt limit.

At a private caucus meeting Thursday morning, House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) told her members that if Obama's serious about putting Social Security on the chopping block, he'd left her in the dark about it. And after an at-times-contentious meeting about how open Dems should be to significant entitlement cuts, leaders departed to the White House to read Obama the riot act.

According to one top aide, both Pelosi and Minority Whip Steny Hoyer (D-MD) intended to "deliver a message from the caucus that we definitely want to see revenues included in any package."

Additionally, "any changes to Medicare have to be things that strengthens the program, not just a bank for tax cuts for millionaires," and the party is broadly opposed to cutting Social Security as a means of balancing the budget.

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/07/sources-house-dems-stunned-by-white-house-proposal-read-obama-the-riot-act.php

[brooklynite]

38. No, she's responding to "news stories"

Presumably from the "Mainstream Media" that people here tell me never to trust.

All I know is that the Administration says there's been no policy change, and I haven't hear anyone (except here) dispute that.

[EFerrari]

41. LOL. I've just shown you an article about Nancy Pelosi's "dispute"

with the deal Obama was working on without consulting her. Are you claiming Nancy Pelosi uses DU to determine her day's work?

[RaleighNCDUer]

81. The WH has said there's been no policy change on this -

and we know what their CURRENT policy is by the fact that they've unfunded SS with the so-called 'tax holiday' making what they claim to be a going-broke program go broker.


"We need to stabilize this three-legged stool! Quick, cut one of the legs off!"

[EFerrari]

27. Gaslighting.

[fascisthunter]

67. did you catch the "if" in the OP

[alcibiades_mystery]

20. Melodrama

:rofl:

[Logical]

32. Glad you think this is funny. Wow, what a progressive you are! n-t

[alcibiades_mystery]

33. Oh nooooo!

A person on the internet who calls him or herself "Logical" sarcastically suggests I'm not progressive enough! Whatever shall I do?

:rofl:

[PeaceNikki]

34. .

[larwdem]

40. LOVE THE CAT

[Logical]

36. The laughing icon proves you are a gem. Sorry, I was wrong! n-t

[amborin]

26. K&R

[TheKentuckian]

35. I don't get the logic that says we are ethically allowed to swallow shit on the excuse of

the promise of worse from the opposition.

Talking about just like the Republicans! They often do this same song and dance.

We do control our response and how that isn't replacing garbage with decent folks and letting the chips fall where they may at least trying to do right by our country and fellow travelers instead of selling ourselves out for hollow and even cancerous victory.

The outright declaration of refusing to even argue to do the right thing is insane.

Die with your boots on rather than grovelling on your knees to uncaring evil without a shred of mercy.

How can you be so chicken shit conservative that you refuse to try and consigning yourself to hoping you get a lesser evil from the word go.

Weak ass, suicidal, cowardly bullshit. Thinking and grit like that wouldn't get Godzilla out of a wet paper bag.

The roll over chumps really should consider suicide, I mean why bother? You might have wipe your ass or eat or something more dramatic and scary.

We are fucking obligated to get rid of these fucking corporate thralls and get folks in that represent the poor and working peole and speak for those with no voice or we are lying ass hypocrites and essentially traitors to our country.

[larwdem]

39. JUST SAY NO

:rofl: JUST SAY NO TO CUTTING ONES OWN THROAT

[femrap]

44. I'd go long revolution. nt

[blindpig]

50. I'm sure your outrage will be duly noted....

as they laugh their way to the bank.

Now, about plan B....

[JoseGaspar]

78. Ain't no Plan B...

Hope the next Tsar is better than the last, look for secret hints that this one has a heart, hope one of his advisers is really a closet humanitarian... and then do it again.

This shit was stale in 1968.

[cry baby]

54. Ok, I'm sure that SS and Medicare/Medicaid will fare better under repub rule.

The previous sentence was intended as sarcasm. I don't mean to be rude to you - you are certainly within your rights to feel the way you do and express it here. I've always enjoyed your posts.

Food for thought - if repubs are elected because of dems staying home, then your elderly mother and mine will know what true suffering is since it is the repub mission (as it has been for decades) to abolish SS, Medicare, and Medicaid altogether. I truly think outrage about this is premature, anyway.

[MadHound]

57. So the choice is for us, and this country, to die either slowly under the Dems,

Or quickly under the 'Pugs.

Frankly, I've always been of the opinion that a quick death is the best way to go. In the case of our country, let the 'Pugs tear it down quickly, to the point where people are pissed and taking to the streets in a revolution. Then we can get our country back and rebuild it in a better way. I don't want to live through the twilight of our country, watching it die by a thousand DLC/Third Way/Democratic cuts. That would be agony.

It is apparent that this country is headed for crash and burn. Do it, get it done with, and let's move on to better things.

[cry baby]

62. I catch myself being pessimistic very often these days, also.

But putting us in a place where we have to start over doesn't seem to be efficient and the great risk is certainly there that we won't be able to get to rebuild our progressive programs at all. If they are rebuilt, they may look very different than they do now and our parents may still suffer needlessly. Please remember, there are many politically powerful rich people in this country today that don't believe in the safety net programs at all. If the numbers of old/sick/poor decline because the safety net is gone - personally, I think they will be happy about that.

Starting over isn't really a viable option. We need to work within the framework we have - our reality - to make things as good as we can make them.

Truly, though - I understand your panic because my parents are in their mid-80's and Medicare has probably prolonged my dad's life for decades. He's a cancer survivor. I'm trying to take my cues from conversations with them in how I approach this issue.

[MadHound]

65. Starting over is the only option that practically we have left

That is the plain fact of the matter. Our votes are either bought and paid for, or hacked. Outrage, demonstrations, writing, protests, anything short of violence is ignored. Time after time, policies that the public overwhelmingly favors are ignored and spurned, the public option, eliminating tax cuts for the rich, etc. etc.

The only thing that can save us short of starting over is an amendment that would mandate publicly funded elections for all offices, but with the corporate puppets in charge, that has about as much chance as a snowball in hell.

Get this straight, this government is not of the people, by the people or for the people. That ceased to be the case long ago, and what we are seeing now is the rise of naked corporate power in our government. It doesn't matter which party is in government, both are working for corporate America, not us. For a couple of decades a polite facade was kept up, with Democrats playing good cop and handing out a few crumbs to the people while allowing corporations to make out like the thieves they are, but no longer. We have a Democratic president openly discussing the first salvos that are going to destroy SS and Medicare/Medicaid. It took a Democrat in Bill Clinton to shred the social safety net of welfare, I guess it takes another Democrat in Obama to start the destruction of these bedrock Democratic programs.

There is no repair possible at this point, the structure of our government and country is rotted and corrupted. Starting over is our only option.

[cry baby]

74. What has Obama said that leads you to believe that he wants SS to be destroyed?

Starting over isn't practical unless you get rid of the rich powerful people that want to be "kings". What is your plan for starting over? How will you fight these wannabe "kings/kingmakers" and win?

I absolutely agree with the public funding of elections, btw. I talk that up as often as possible.

Again, starting over and fighting the fights that took us decades to win will just put us behind and many will suffer more than they otherwise would because of it, including my parents...and even me. I don't want to start over - I want to work from where we are now and honor the ones before me that fought so hard for these safety nets.

[RaleighNCDUer]

86. "...whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends,

it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its Foundation on such Principles, and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

We don't need to work within the framework we have - not if the framework is itself the problem.

Sometimes, if the other guy has all the chips and the deck is stacked against you, the only option is to kick over the table.

(edited for typo)

[cry baby]

90. how do you propose to "to throw off such government, and to provide...

new guards for their future security"? Revolutionary war was necessary for the previous abolition of govt. Are you proposing war in the traditional sense against the govt?

Maybe revolution in the traditional sense? What is your practical way to absolve this govt and begin a new one?

[RaleighNCDUer]

95. I don't want to absolve this government - you do.

Look it up.

And yes, the Declaration makes clear that the PEOPLE are the highest authority in the land. The government is subject to their will, and if the government becomes no longer subject to their will they have the option and the right to change it by whatever means are necessary.

Our 'leaders' must never forget that is an option.

As you might have noticed, I'm not a Tory.

[cry baby]

102. Sorry, I'm advocating working within the current system and it's you that

want to absolve this govt and start over cause it doesn't reflect your ideals.

What you say in your post is completely laughably backward.

[RaleighNCDUer]

104. That word - I don't think it means what you think it means.

That's why I said 'look it up'.

[cry baby]

105. I'm sorry - I used the word absolve and I meant abolish. please forgive. nt

[RaleighNCDUer]

117. No problem. And my point still stands -

when the means of influencing the government have been removed from our hands - through 'Citizens United' giving one party unlimited resources for electioneering; though unaccountable electronic voting; through the representatives just flat out ignoring with will of the people - there is no more system to work within.

It is a sham.

One of our fine posters here has a screen-capture of polling on the Rachel Maddow show, showing how overwhelming numbers of the populace want to hold banksters accountable for crashing the economy, want to end the foreign wars, support gay marriage, want to end the war on drug, etc. Talking numbers in the 70th and 80th percentile.

Yet our government does nothing.

That is a government that is not responsive to the people. It is responsive to corporate money, and nothing else. As millions of citizens slip into poverty, the top 1% controls all the strings of government and law.

And year after year after year it gets worse - never better.

Perhaps you don't remember, but it was not always like this. And that is exactly what the powers that be - the fat cats who pull those strings - are counting on. All us old farts who remember when we had a responsive government dying off, so that nothing before the 80s exists in the public memory.

We are on the sidelines now. The real fight - and if you look for it you will see it - is between the corporatists and the theocrats. They are currently in an uneasy truce as they work together to crush the last of American democracy. There might even be time to stop them if we can turn them on each other prematurely - setting Palin against Romney, Hucklebee against Pawlenty - but we can't look to the DLC/Third Way to be on our side.

So, how do you work 'within the system' when the system is irreparably corrupt? Do you REALLY think that Obama is going to appoint a SC justice who will overturn Citizens United? Do you REALLY think your work in the system is going to close down 900 foreign military bases?

Do you think your vote counts?

[cry baby]

121. yes my vote counts. And thank you for accepting my apology.

Working within the system requires a huge amount of work to change hearts and convince people that our way is the right way. Strong voices from the entire left side of the spectrum are needed to steer our representation. How do you propose to start over...Revolution in the traditional sense? Is that as practical as working with what we have now and making it better (albeit more slowly than some would want)?

Yes, I believe that Obama would, if given the chance to replace a conservative SCJ, he would do so with someone that is to the left.

Working within the system is slow and often (or more accurately, always) torturous. I don't want to start over, I want to start from here and make things better.

[RaleighNCDUer]

129. Well, good luck with that. Sincerely.

I wish I still had some of your...optimism.

I not only see us making no progress, we are actually regressing. Under a Democratic regime, I see the schools here being re-segregated. The wars are being wound down in one place, only to be started up elsewhere - there is no change in the presumption that the government CAN do it if it wants to, no matter what congress or the people say.

Believe me, I don't say that revolution is a good option. Only that it may be, before too long, the ONLY option, other than complete surrender of our democracy. The system today is not the system of 30 years ago, and it was hard enough working within the system then. It is ossified within a shell of money and privilege, and Citizens United guarantees that no challenge can be successful.

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."
John F Kennedy

[cry baby]

134. Thank you, Raleigh. I will keep my optimism, cautiously. You make many good points.

I'll remember our conversation and the points you made. thank you for the discussion.

[R. P. McMurphy]

97. If the President opens SS and Medicare to system-wide cuts . . .

then I agree with you. Too much will have been lost and it will be time to retreat and regroup. I honestly believe that is where we are headed and I believe that (the loss of all our social safety nets) is what it will take before the general public opens their eyes.

I believe that I read read somewhere, though, that the cuts the President proposed are for those in the higher wage brackets that aren't (as?) dependent on SS and Medicare. If that is the case I say we stand behind him once more. I hope he pulls it out at the end. He has done that before and has really surprised me.

It would be wonderful, though, if, for once, he would start negotiating from a strong liberal position instead of a position of compromise.

[RaleighNCDUer]

85. So the choice is starve quickly, or starve slowly.

Nice to know we have options.

[Edweird]

114. How did W's attempt at privatization go?

[cry baby]

122. it went down the shitter where it belonged. nt

[Edweird]

153. That kinda blows a hole in your premise now doesn't it?

[cry baby]

155. How so? No dem has been talking about privatization.

I'm not clear as to what you are saying.

[Edweird]

157. The R assault on SS was a failure but the "dem" assault will likely succeed. By design I presume.

[cry baby]

172. You specifically said privatization...is that the assault you see coming from dems? nt

[Edweird]

174. Ok then. How did W's assault on SS turn out? Happy?

[cry baby]

175. Words matter, Ed. I used the wrong word just upthread and it changed the

entire meaning of what I was trying to say. I should proofread better.

It didn't turn out well for W. That doesn't tear down my premise at all.

The medicare cuts idea that was floated by an anonymous who-knows-who won't go over well, either. I never said that it would. I said that having medicare is better than having no medicare.

Have a good night, Ed.:toast:

[Edweird]

178. The r's failed in their attacks. A "dem" will succeed. Holding up the r's as SS destroying bogeymen

is not accurate. They may want to destroy it - but they have not been able to. The choice, as presented, is not accurate.

[krabigirl]

55. I won't, either, but he lost my support when he kept starting new bullshit wars.

[emilyg]

70. Yes. That was one of many things.

[JohnnyRingo]

58. How rigidly committed to this ultimatum are you?

What if the party make concessions to Medicare/Medicaid that can be backfilled by the Affordable Care Amendment?

If the administration eliminates the very expensive and wasteful Part B section that was initiated by Bush's Medicare Reform Act of 2003 but provides for that gap via "ObamaCare" are you "through" with the party? Will you stay informed to the level required that you know this happened, or just unconditionally turn your back and enter a state of apathy that paves the way for President Romney and a Republican senate?

Taking on such a firm line in the sand as stated assumes the responsibility of a higher degree of awareness to make sure it isn't just a knee jerk reaction to a headline. Since you're a DUer, and therefore a more informed citizen, I imagine you'll retain a certain amount of flexibility, an option that isn't mentioned in your post.

Democrats have already said that Social Security cuts are off the table, but ending Medicare "waste" is a bargaining chip for gaining revenue increases.

[MadHound]

61. Ah, so you are looking for nuance,

Let me put this in succinct terms for you then. I will not support Obama, or any Democrat, who cuts benefits from SS, Medicare, Medicaid.

What you are talking about is money shuffling, moving money from one program to another, I have no problem with that.

But yes, Obama and the Dems are indeed talking about cutting benefits, though it is being disguised as "adjustments" to COLA payments in SS. That is indeed a benefit cut, as is raising the retirement age, etc. etc.

Don't worry, I keep my eye on the ball, and right now, Obama is dropping it.

[JohnnyRingo]

77. Then I guess there is some wiggle room in your ultimatum after all.

Perhaps the post would have more appropriately been titled "No, I probably won't".

You resent Obama and the democratic party and want to try the alternative in 2012? Good for you, but I've suffered through the alternative, and it's definately and immeasurably worse. I'll do everything in my power to assure a second term for Obama and a return to a Democratic majority in Congress. You can work against me if you want, even posting "NObama" and "Democrat for Romney" signs in your yard if that's where you're headed. We got through the dissent in 2008, and I'm sure we'll face it again in 2012.

Like you, I'm just stating a political opinion.

[jwirr]

60. This post breaks my heart - I also learned the hard lesson in the

McGovern campaign. What you say is so true.

But now I vote for the Democrat not because he is like FDR or McGovern, both of whom I love, but because my daughter and others like her need to survive. I hate the deals Obama has been making. They hurt my daughter who is severely disabled, but what the rethugs are suggesting is total destruction of the programs she needs to continue living. I am voting for the only option for survival.

I have once said I would always vote Democratic. I have changed my mind. IF there was a viable primary option or a viable third party candidate I would consider voting for them but I do not see anyone who fits that description and it is most likely too late to get anything going now. Further we need to consider that Obama won with huge minority votes for both the black and hispanic communities. Without their support it is entirely likely that the rethugs could win.

I am too afraid of what will happen if this government falls back into rethug control. They already own the SCOTUS, the house and all too many state governors. I will vote Democratic again this year if no miracle appears to give me another choice. My daughter deserves my support.

[bowens43]

63. maybe it's time to sit it out and let it hit bottom....

I honestly can say that I don't think it would be worse with a republican in the oval office. I think that with a republican in the oval office Democrats in the house and senate would fight much harder to do the right thing. Right now, anytime they try to do the right thing Obama undercuts them. His actions have been reprehensible.

[jwirr]

66. My point: Do you have someone who would die if the programs are

totally cut? I do and she has many like her. What is your solution for them while shit is hitting the fan? And our Democrats had little to say about anything in booooshes years.

[closeupready]

82. You should encourage your daughters to consider living abroad.

That sounds kind of sad, but in fact, if the reality is that their lives would be better elsewhere, then maybe people need to consider this. What the typical American has to face now is health care or rent, and this is not so in the UK or France or Canada.

[jwirr]

126. Thank you but I do not think they would take her. She is severely

disabled with developmental disability, seizures, digestive disorders and needs total care from feeding through a tube to diapering. It sounds terrible but her doctor says she is going to live to be in her 60s. When they do vitals she comes out perfect. The basic body works but nothing else does.

[lunatica]

68. I know what you're saying but taking this stand will look lame when the GOP

has won the Presidency with the likes of any of the present candidates. Standing on principle is a good thing, but sometimes voting for the lesser of two evils will actually get you the lesser of two evils to live with. Not everything is a clear cut choice.

I find the alternative way too evil.

[JohnnyRingo]

73. Amen

Apathy within the party was a factoring component to a GW Bush win in 2000. True, Al Gore was no ball of fire, but if more democrats had adopted your outlook back then, Bush wouldn't have had the margin that allowed for him to cheat the system and ravage the country for two terms. Bush is the reason we are where we find ourselves today, not Obama.

We're all sorry change hasn't completely turned eight years of devastation around in two and a half years.

[RaleighNCDUer]

87. Actually, no. Clinton and the fucking DLC are the reason we are where we are today.

If they had not dragged the party to the right, made the first cuts to the safety net, fought for 'Free Trade' and NAFTA, ended Glass/Steagel, and on and on and on

Bush would NEVER have been elected.

You are pointing at a result and calling it a cause.

Without 'free trade' millions of American jobs would not have been shipped overseas.
With Glass/Steagel in place, investment banks could not have merged with depository banks, and the entire mortgage crisis would not have occurred.
Without the DLC neo-con/neo-lib empire building, we would not be in three wars today.

This didn't start with Bush, and the Third Way Obama administration is not the solution.

We need a president like the one who campaigned on Hope and Change. Not the one who got elected.

[stranger81]

118. Fantastic post. [n/t]

[obxhead]

133. It will take more time to turn things around. The problem is

the Obama admin hasn't even put the turn signal on much less turned the wheel.

[crim son]

69. You aren't alone.

There comes a time to say NO and this is it.

[kestrel91316]

72. K&R. I will register Socialist and leave the Democrats altogether

if they try to gut Med and SS.

[jwirr]

130. You might have a very good idea there. Wonder what they would

do if tomorrow there was a mass desertion of the party through re registering. We could still vote what we want. However, doesn't that mean that we would not be able to choose our local candidates or vote in primaries? There is not often a good choice when it comes to local - usually just the two parties.

[Daemonaquila]

75. Right decision, sad about the reason.

I agree with your decision to refuse to support the insanity. However, I wish you and others like you had already drawn that line BEFORE it reached your personal pocketbooks. I keep getting reminded of Niemoller these days. Just about everyone is getting thrown under the bus by the administration, but nobody wants to band together and save anyone else's bacon, or stand up against the damage unless it personally affects them. Democrats of good conscience have to tell the party and Obama that they has lost their support unless they start doing right by the American people, not the corporations, or the lobbyists, or the Rethugs. Nothing will change if people won't take that chance until the line of their personal self-interest is crossed. We stand united, or we die apart.

[grattsl]

76. A lot of people have come to the same conclusion

There have been plenty of people saying similar things. I hope you get treated better than they have.

[closeupready]

79. K & R, big-time.

:woohoo:

[muffin1]

83. K&R

:applause:

[Dokkie]

84. Good for you

Every man has his limit, a line in the sand that when crossed would elicit some adverse action. Mine is in starting new wars and not ending the old ones and right now, its hard to even see the line in the sand with the track of so many US soldiers crossing it.

If we can learn anything from the tea party is that we can get our elected politician to listen to us if a small few of us can unite and stand our ground.

[MissDeeds]

91. I stand with you, MadHound

K&R

[Taverner]

94. Sigh....

Not agreeing or disagreeing with you

Both sides have good points

I'm just mad that it has come to this

[Enthusiast]

96. Although I kicked and recommended,

I want to say you are not punishing Obama for his betrayal. His mission was to end medicare and social security before there was a hint of a budget crisis. He appointed the zealots to the deficit commission. He continued the starve the beast GOP far right wing strategy.

We have to write Obama off. He is not one of us. He is part of an elaborate ruse.

[ut oh]

98. These debt ceiling negotiations...

... and what is coming out of them is leaving me, for the first time in my life, considering not voting.

I've tried to believe the Dem leadership was truely for Dem principles, but it's obvious that that is not the case anymore.

I do not like where the Dem party is headed due to our current crop of (non) leadership.

[ProfessionalLeftist]

100. 1000% agreed. HOLD THEM ACCOUNTABLE. They're counting on us to

lay down and silently take getting trampled. We have VOICES and VOTES. They need to see/hear our voices in droves every day and our votes need to be held over their f*cking pea-brained heads at EVERY TURN.

It IS the only thing we have left short of a revolution - in the STREETS. Sitting on your ass and whining on DU won't cut it.

Keep it handy - use it DAILY:

WHITE HOUSE:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/contact

Comments: 202-456-1111
Switchboard: 202-456-1414
FAX: [phone]
Congress/Senate switchboard: [phone] - call and ask for the office of your rep. and let them know your thoughts.

[danbeee46]

103. There Comes A Time

I couldn't agree with the OP more.
There is no way I can support Obama for the same reasons the OP cited, and more.
Obama and his advisors believe we will support him because there is no where else for us to go.
That's not true. While I cannot vote for a Republican, I sure can sit out the election or vote for a
third party candidate (if any). If that allows a GOPer to win, so be it.
There comes a time (and I believe it is now) when you just cannot support candidates who don't support you.
Otherwise, they will never support you.

[Rex]

106. This crapball is already heading downhill, nothing will stop it not

even the magic veil used to hide all the horrendous actions by the Fed govt in the last few decades. It is going to plow trough with a vengeance never seen before. We won't have to point fingers, our leaders will be in obvious fail mode for the entire world to see.

[awoke_in_2003]

110. K&R....

it sucks knowing that I have paid into the system for 25 years, but in 20 years there will be nothing there. Oh, I invest in a 401k- of course the odds in Vegas are probably better.

[jeaps]

112. I will support liberals...

I will not support Democrats. Over the years I've contributed to the DCCC and DSCC, but no more. I will only contribute to liberals who support Social Security, Medicare/Medicaid, unions, universal health care, campaign finance reform, Pro-choice legislation, and a fair tax code. I will work my hardest for local liberal candidates and will contribute to those outside my area. I will not support President Obama (not that I'd ever vote for a Republican, but there's usually a Green candidate on the ballot). We may end up with a Republican president, but if we can make liberal gains on the local and state level, we can tie his/her hands. Look at what the Republicans have done to Obama!

[John Agar]

113. I'm so torn by this.

Betrayed by the administration, afraid of worse from the Repugs.

Our political system has failed, along with our economic system.

I feel like there is nowhere to turn.

[Javaman]

116. I'm right were you are...

and I believe a great many other old die hard dems are there as well.

if there ever were a real chance of riots breaking out spontaneously in this nation, it will happen when and if Obama caves on SS and medicare.

[madokie]

120. Don't you think you're kinda jumping the gun here

Just because the Washington Post and or the New York Times print something does not the truth make.

Geeze
UNFUCKINGREC

[snot]

123. K&R'd.

[dotymed]

124. It must be time

for the pitchforks.

[rdking647]

128. i hop you like president bachman

then you can look forward to ss and medicare being eliminated not just cut.

[closeupready]

131. You are implying that SS and Medicare ARE, in fact, going to be cut.

nt

[Jakes Progress]

132. I will continue to work and support Democrats. Not fake Democrats.

Just because they call themselves Democrats doesn't make it so. Look at the centrist, third way, blue dogs on DU that call themselves liberal.

[defendandprotect]

135. Obama has already cut Social Security -- he cut COLA payments ...

A 6th grader would understand the CPI has been gimmicked to hide the fact that

over W Bush years any $1 you had is now worth 50 cents!!

If Obama doesn't understand that he shouldn't be in the Oval Office!!

This is the result of 20 years of Koch Bros./DLC infiltration of the Dem Party --

influencing its agenda and its candidates -- including its presidential candidates.

[droidamus2]

136. My biggest problem with the Democrats and

specifically Obama is they don't seem to care if they are seen as the 'lesser of two evils' by the us on the left. They insult us, they refuse to even try and get progressive programs like universal health care and at every turn they are willing to give away those program and ideas progressives hold dear and then expect us to hold our nose and vote for them. I and a lot of other liberals have been 'yelling' at Obama to take a stand and fight for something. The only way we on the liberal side have left to make our voices heard is to tell the DLCers and other conservative Democrats that if they take our votes for granted and feel that they can ignore us they are sadly mistaken. Do I like the idea of a Republican winning the Presidency? No. Do I like the idea of a Mepublican Lite posing as a Democrat winning the presidency? No, again. If Obama caves on Social Security/Medicare it very well may be the first time in since I became eligible to vote that I will not cast a vote for President (if I could vote non-of-the-above I would). Note I didn't say I would not vote for any Democrat (luckily I live in Vermont so my Senators and Representative are solid progressives) but if they want my vote for President then they have to earn it. If the only way we can wake up the Democratic leadership that they cannot take us for granted is to let a Republican win then so be it. Do I like the idea. Hell no! Will I continue to hold my nose and vote for the 'lesser of two evils'? HELL NO!!! I have a real problem that every time Obama lets himself get into this 'do it the Republican way or you get nothing' hole he seems to do nothing but talk to the Mepublican leadership. Why the hell isn't he talking to the Democratic leadership, and not just Reid, about playing hardball at least once in awhile. I don't think the Mepublicans are beating Obama at this game I thing for the most part he and his advisers agree with the direction the Mepublicans want to go. Maybe not to the extreme that the 'Tea Partiers' would take US but at least in a rightward/corporate direction.

[JDPriestly]

139. K&R

The OP says it all.

Obama should simply announce that he is not going to run again. There are many exciting, capable Democrats who could handle the presidency and the Republicans better than he has.

He is a good man, but he did not have the experience or judgment to be our president.

I watched a documentary on Truman the past few nights. I was a child during those years and, because my parents were staunch Democrats, I clearly remember their discussing the events that occurred during the late 1940s. Beginning in 1952, the first Democratic Convention that I listened to on the radio, I began to follow politics myself. "Current events" we called it.

I remember Truman's mistakes as well as his triumphs and qualities.

Truman had only a high school education. He was simple but very sincere and extremely honest.

We need the common sense of Harry Truman right now. And Obama, with all his education and class just doesn't have it.

It's a real shame, because I like Obama, but he should step aside and let a more capable, more progressive candidate who is willing to stand tall against some very powerful, very greedy forces, take charge.

[murielm99]

143. I called Durbin's office today and told him that this

could NOT happen. I even have Republicans stopping me on the street here, those who know of my involvement in the Democratic party. Everyone is angry and frightened.

If Social Security and Medicare are changed, the people will sweep everyone out of office, regardless of party. Just imagine if our next president is one of the clowns emerging from the current clown car of announced repubbie candidates! We would be finished as a democracy.

I could happen. They will get rid of as many incumbents as possible, starting at the top.

The DCCC called me this afternoon, too. I told them were were not getting any money from me until I see the budget resolved WITHOUT changes to Social Security and Medicare. She tried to spin, but I was not having it.

[Paper Roses]

144. I am an old timer. I'm also cared to death.

I scrape by as it is. If there are any cuts to SS or to Medicare, I am sunk...as are millions of other American retirees.

We paid, we earned, whatever benefits---not 'entitlements' come our way. Stop them, cut them and the US will have a greater number of foreclosures, welfare application, deaths.

Is there no justice?

My world may turn upside down. I, like millions of other retirees, am scared stiff.
I just don't believe that we will not pay the price of cuts while some millionaires, or billionaires coast along with no change in their lifestyle. Been around too long to believe much that comes out of Washington any more.

I guess the phrase is, "I've had it up to here"

[MadHound]

147. I hear you,

I'm not a retiree, but entering the fall of my life. I'm at that age where if any changes were made in SS or Medicare, I'd be screwed because the politicians would grandfather in everybody within ten years of retirement, leaving my generation out in the cold with little time to prepare for the storm.

[Smarmie Doofus]

145. "Me too neither." As Alfalfa Scwheitzer once said.

A K and an R .

The longer this RW DEM mentality controls the administration and the party the fewer the qualms I have about taking next year off.

[LWolf]

146. k&r

[indepat]

148. My Democratic roots go back to when my maternal grandfather , a cousin, friend, and contemporary of

Cordell Hull, was an early campaign manager for Senator Al Gore, Sr., and my father, a campaign manager for Senator Estes Kefauver in the 40s. But to all presently-elected Democrats in Washington, D.C., read my lips: I will never vote for anyone who, in any way, votes or promotes to eviscerate either social security, Medicare, or Medicaid, ostensibly or for practical purposes, to pay for BHO's tax cuts for the uber-wealthy. Moreover, I will tirelessly encourage others, including my eight progeny of voting age, to do likewise. :patriot:

[davidwparker]

152. +1

[underpants]

151. I will

[shireen]

158. i wonder if you're on to something ...

perhaps things have to get worse to force more people into action before it can get better.

I have such mixed feelings about it. I feel your anger. But i'm afraid not to vote. I'll keep thinking about it.
Thanks for your OP.

[TrollBuster9090]

160. Good post. The bottom line is this: Obama, like Clinton, wants to be seen as a 'centrist.'

Or a 'third way' Democrat to capture votes from the "centrist" undecided voters.

So, here's the bottom line: OBAMA CAN'T SEEM TO BE A CENTRIST UNLESS THE LEFT MAKES NOISE.

SO MAKE NOISE!!!!

As it is, it's only the RIGHT who is constantly making noise about what they refuse to accept, and what they'll never compromise on. (ie-TAXES) If the left doesn't make similar noise about the things they value and absolutely refuse to compromise on, the Overton Window will CONTINUE to be shoved further and further to the right.


Here's the reality: the political "center" has been MOVED by conservatives and the Republican party constantly shoving the OVERTON WINDOW further and further to the right by being both VOCAL and INFLEXIBLE. This has nothing to do with what policies the majority of people would actually like to see enacted! The Overton Window is all about POLITICAL PERCEPTIONS, and about what constitutes "normal political discourse" in the beltway,the village, the punditocracy, and the mainstream media.

The right has whined and yelled for a generation about how taxes are something they'll never compromise on, and as a result....that's all we ever talk about. Opinion poll after opinion poll shows that the majority of people want higher taxes for the rich. But is that what the politicians and pundits are talking about? NO.

Okay, if we're every going to move the Overton Window of political discourse back to the REAL center of American sentiment, the only way to do it is for THE LEFT TO YELL AND SCREAM FOR A GENERATION ABOUT WHAT WE WILL NEVER COMPROMISE ON.

So there you go! MAKE NOISE!
SCREAM IT FROM THE ROOFTOPS.

"IF YOU GUYS COMPROMISE ON MEDICARE AND SOCIAL SECURITY WE'RE NOT GOING TO SUPPORT YOU, AND WE DON'T GIVE A DAMN IF YOU LOSE. MAYBE YOU'LL LEARN SOMETHING IF YOU *DO*!"

Medicare, universal healthcare, social security, and consumer protection are now our litmus tests. Bargain with those, and we'll primary you into oblivion.

[mzteris]

167. ofo. n/t

[Riverman]

171. After Cutting SS and Medicaid, Obama declares he is running for the Republican

Nomination. The White House said today that the President will create campaign committees such as:

The Anti-Poor People Committee to Re-Elect the President;
The No Health Care for Seniors Committee to Re-Elect the President;
The No Retirement for Seniors Committee to Re-Elect the Presient;
The US Chamber of Commerce Committee to Re-Elect the Present;
The Anti-Workers Rights Committee to Re-Elect the President;
The Pro-Life Committee to Re-Elect the President;
The Pro Marriage Committee to Re-Elect the President;
Anti-Gay Agenda Committee to Re-Elect the President;
The Christian Coalition Committee to Re-Elect the President;
Defense Contractors' Committee to Re-Elect the President;
The Wall Street Committee to Re-Elect the President;
Big Pharma Committee to Re-Elect the President;
United Health Care Committee to Re-Elect the President;
Clean Coal Committee to Re-Elect the President;
and so on!

Seriously,
Does Obama really want to not get re-elected, not appoint reasonable moderates to the Supreme Court in his second term? If not, why is he screwing the very people who elected him and then he and some here will blame us for not voting for him.

[Blue-Jay]

176. Then don't.

See? That was easy!