When did disagreeing with the President on tax cuts for the rich,

[ej510]

corporate health insurance, cuts to social security, medicare, and medicaid possibly, 7 wars, violating our civil rights, being against marriage for everyone, tax dollars going to religious organizations,stupid war on drugs, privatization of schools, and etc, become advocating right views or ideas?

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Aerows]

7. I wanted to say something to you

but you don't accept PMs. I took your thread personally, because that was a very harrowing experience for many people. I'm white, but I'm a lesbian, so I understand "heterosexual privilege". I'm a woman, so I understand "male privilege". My girlfriend is Latin American, so I understand "white privilege" to some degree. You are way off base, though, to be judging every single person as though none of them understand the concept of "privilege".

My suggestion to you is that you look in the mirror and see if your anger at this concept has something much more personally rooted. It's a good thing to explore things that make us angry, but to get to the point that it becomes judging anyone and everyone, it's no longer productive - it's getting high on your own self-righteousness.

In any case, peace to you.

EDIT: Feel free to shoot me a PM if you would like to discuss this issue further.

[stuckinarut]

20. Peace to you

...if you are willing to fight for it.

[Taverner]

21. You're on my ignore list - that's why you couldn't send a PM

Yes, let's discuss this further, because my point was that Hurricane Katrina was a perfect example of how white privilege works, not that all the white residents affected by Katrina had it better than all of the black residents.

There were a lot of things that happened to black people during that catastrophe that were because of race. No, not everyone white was behind it, but as you know that's not how white privilege works. WP is a statistics game, and while there are always anomalies to every distribution, stats back up that yes, black people are still discriminated against. And nowhere was this more apparent than how (1) the authorities treated the situation, especially policemen and (2) the way the news reported it. I do not buy for a second that it was a stylebook difference that caused black residents to be 'looters' when white residents were 'finders.' I was a journalist, and I know the conscious and unconscious bias that exists in media.

I've taken you off Ignore, so PM me if you want to discuss it.

[Aerows]

27. Still on ignore

And I'd prefer we move this to that venue since this is off-topic. Check your settings, and shoot me a PM, and I'd be happy to discuss it with you.

[Taverner]

30. Ooops sorry about that

Give it 1 minute to propagate

[KittyWampus]

2. What are you babbling about? Obama wants to raise taxes on the wealthiest, he got Health Care Reform

started, hasn't actually said he endorses cuts to social security/medicare/medicaid despite all the stupid drama on DU...

He is not giving any money to religious organizations and there are a lot of Democrats who agree with the use of school vouchers now.

[ej510]

6. Corporate insurance reform.

[Autumn]

11. Obama referred to it as, insurance finance reform.

That's what I call it.

[eridani]

19. And it didn't even do that. Other countries with universal health care through private insurance--

--DICTATE the coverage and the price of ONE comprehensive plan to be offered to everyone--no Bronze, Silver, Gold and Platinum people allowed (although people can buy exra bells and whistles if they want). NO age rating. And it is flat out ILLEGAL to ever deny a claim.

[Autumn]

28. There was a poster here who called it The Insurance Profit

Protection Act. That more like what it is.

[ej510]

31. Spot on.

The Health Insurance Cartel receives its protection money from politicians.

[woo me with science]

37. +1

[Uncle Joe]

43. + All that exists. n/t

[JuniperLea]

8. Spot on!

This is getting more ridiculous by the hour... seriously sickening, disheartening, and bogus beyond belief.

I'm just about done here.

[tridim]

18. Please don't leave. That's what they want.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1443855&mesg_id=1443855

[JuniperLea]

25. That might be true...

But something needs done here. DU reeks... sucks... and blows right now. Worse than ever.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JuniperLea]

35. It's beyond silly... it's becoming unhealthy!

There are very, very few people here who support Obama no matter what. But the number who will bash him regardless are legion.

That's why you see so few sticking to issues... when someone states they like something Obama is doing, or they say they will wait until he actually does something instead of becoming outraged by the he's going to he wants to he plans on bovine excrement from unnamed sources, the kitchen sink gets thrown at them.

I'm not about to blame someone for something some anonymous person is saying he plans to do. That is not lock step. That is common sense.

If and when Obama actually screws those on medicare or social security, he'll get an earful from me every free moment I have. Until that time, this is all bullshit speculation and people should be ashamed for being so weak and feeble minded!

[Autumn]

9. Babbling? What Obama"wants" and what

he did on raising taxes on the wealthiest, are two different things. Hasn't actually said he endorses cuts to social security/medicare/medicaid, but like Rachel I believe the White House did float a trial balloon, and it fell like a lead balloon.

[KittyWampus]

15. Apparently you fail to understand how our government works. Congress writes laws/legislation

the POTUS signs them.

The fact we are moving foward at all, however slightly, is a large measure of how Obama and elected Democrats in Congress are actually effective.

Or do you subscribe to the Magic Wand Theory of Govt.?

[Autumn]

24. Oh silly me. Congress did the deal for Obamas tax

extension for the wealthy without him? :wow: Those fuckers in Congress. The bill I sign must contain a public option. As I said what Obama wants and what HE did are different things.

"Apparently you fail to understand how our government works. Congress writes laws/legislation" If that's all you got, you got nothing. Keep scraping the bottom of the barrel though.:thumbsup:

[newspeak]

67. oh really, how congress works?

well when little boots and his big pharma friends wanted Medicare Part D reform, they got it even when some repugs who still had a conscience were against it. Knew it would screw the elderly-and it increased the deficit. No more arbitration for cheaper drugs, no more allowing seniors to get drugs cheaper in Canada. Just more money being funneled to the pharma industry at our expense. And did I mention it increased the deficit? But, that was the administration's baby.

So, tell me what is the excuse of allowing the obscene Little Boot's tax cuts to continue when it has shown to do absolutely nothing in creating jobs. It just allows the already wealthy to hoard (sit) on even more money or ship it out of the country. Because all of those rich and infamous are such good americans and of course, they care for all americans.:sarcasm:

We had the house and the senate, so why didn't those tax cuts fade away? You make a pact with the devil, expect dire results. So now the repugs have the house and they will do everything possible to keep those destructive tax cuts while cutting the social safety net at a time when THE PEOPLE need it the most. If I can see that this deal was going to have a deleterious effect, I'm sure the democrats knew what was going down.

[Autumn]

68. why didn't those tax cuts fade away?

We know why, and you can bet the farm the Dem's and Obama wanted to keep them all along. My 5 years old Granddaughter could have made a better deal.

[Johonny]

39. Here's how the magic wand works

Step 1) Obama does not use executive power to allow gays in military.

Step 2) Obama agree to sign Bush tax cuts (the thing he says he hates) for congress allowing gays in military (something he could have done without them, and something Republicans running for president say they will reverse without congresses help if they get elected for the ultimate lol)

Step 3) Obama sees Republicans use fear of debt to push cuts to social programs championed by liberals, a debt that would have decreased had Obama not signed Bush tax cuts back into law.

Step 4) Obama giving into fear of debt he helped create by continuing and escalating war (even against an act of congress, yes he'll wage war against an act of congress but not put gays in the military) and continuing tax cuts and starts to agree to cut said social programs that are championed by his party.

Step 5) Debt ceiling is getting near, Republicans vow to use it to force debt talk with White House. White House having not done anything about debt by cutting warring or simply letting Bush tax cuts lapse starts negotiating on cutting spending to social programs.

Step 6) August 2 comes closer and the magic hand of government waves a conservative deal to raise debt ceiling with some hard fought tax loop holes closed by Obama. We thank Obama for winning something although none of us are sure we won and 6 months later the win feels like a loss when the ramifications become more clear (See December tax cuts win). Even though all he had to do is nothing in December to cut the debt, save social programs and just use his actual power as commander and chief to end don't ask don't tell we pretend we won something.

Step 7)August 3 I pretend Obama is some master negotiator and political strategy expert because I can't stomach voting Republican.

Step 8)Fool me once shame on me. Ah... you can't get fooled again.

[woo me with science]

55. +1

[mzmolly]

17. +1!

:toast:

[Johonny]

23. all he had to do was nothing last december to get them

and he couldn't even do nothing. So lol on that idea.

[EFerrari]

32. So, Obama has shut down the WH Office of Faith Based Initiatives? n/t

[progressoid]

62. Exactly.

Sadly, He actually expanded it.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/02/05/AR2009020500834.html

[saras]

3. Since the corporatists took over

[vi5]

4. Yeah....I don't know...

I posted more or less the same thing in response to someone claiming that those of us critical of the president were "parroting right wing talking points". I just can't figure out which right wingers were mad at Obama because of those things.

I think it's more just that any criticism of the president emboldens our enemies.

I'm trying to remember where I've heard that idea espoused before.....hmmm.....who used to say that?

[pnwmom]

10. Much of the criticism of him sounds like its coming from

Libertarians who, these days, are dominated by right-wingers. There is nothing progressive about the Libertarian economic policy.

[stuckinarut]

22. There are more leftist shades of libertarianism

One does not have to believe in free markets, or capitalism to be a libertarian.

I consider myself to be a social/civic libertarian, but also consider myself to be economically, more socialist.

Lumping "libertarians" into one group is not accurate.

[immoderate]

41. Note the capitalization.

Libertarians, for the most part are right wingers, and follow Rand, Friedman, Hayek, Goldwater, and a long list of fools.

OTOH, libertarians, such as ourselves, and say, Chomsky and Thomas Paine, usually need to point out our "lower-casedness."

--imm

[stuckinarut]

45. my bad, and I do it without notice haha

It's like my pet peeve when people confuse Democrats with democracy.

[vi5]

52. Huh?

Again, look at the issues on here for which people criticize Obama and what they say:

He should more forcefully regulate and prosecute the financial sector.
He should more forcefully regulate and prosecute companies for environmental transgressions.
He should raise taxes on the wealthy.
He should take power from insurance companies and set up a stronger public insurance option.
He should take stronger stances in favor of unions and/or collective bargaining.
He should more robustly support public schools.
He should not cut social security or medicare.

Which of those sound like they would come from libertarians or right wingers? Seriously. Just curious.

[JoeyT]

63. Yeah, because if there's one thing libertarians are known for

it's being ultra-supportive of medicare, medicaid, social security, and raising taxes.

This is just silly.

[MadHound]

5. When that President started having a D behind his name,

See, when a president has an R behind his name, then such criticism is fine. Such policies are justifiably criticized freely then. But when the president has a D behind his name, these policies are now sacred and can't be criticized, no matter how much damage they're doing to our country.

Behold the power of the letter D.

[Hawkowl]

12. Brought to you by Sesame Street

and the letter "D" :rofl:

[pnwmom]

14. The Democratic Underground has a D in its name.

It's not supposed to be a place where people come to threaten not to vote for Democrats or to push 3rd party candidates.

[villager]

29. It also has a "U" for "Underground," though anything other than absolute obeisance to WH talking

...points seems frowned upon now.

[pnwmom]

46. The site was started when Republicans controlled the White House

and Congress, so the Underground referred to the position of Democrats relative to Republicans at the time.

But then, as now, it has never been a place that is meant to support 3rd party progressives over Democrats. With a capital D.

[villager]

48. Also conveniently forgotten: Early DU critiques of Dems who enabled the GOP agenda

Another thing that's changed, along with recasting the word "Underground" to mean "Status Quo," and "what we're told..."

[pnwmom]

49. True, there have always been people who made comments here

advocating for Greens and other third party people against Democrats.

But it's always been against the site's rules.

[villager]

50. ah, so mentioning Dems who enable rightwing policies is now "Against the rules?"

In other words, any critique of Dems in this "Underground" site is "Against the Rules?"

Certainly explains much about the vantage point you post from...

[pnwmom]

51. No. Advocating for the defeat of Democrats in general elections

or supporting 3rd party candidates over Democrats in general elections is against the rules, and always has been. Yet there have always been people who have done so.

[villager]

53. So we're both in agreement with the OP then -- criticizing the President is okay

...and indeed, part of what makes -- or made -- this site vital.

:thumbsup:

[pnwmom]

57. Yes, of course it's good to criticize him ON SPECIFIC ISSUES.

But it's stupid to shoot ourselves in the foot by encouraging people to think that it doesn't matter whether we vote or that we vote for Democrats or that both parties are the same. These days, they're farther apart than they have ever been.

[villager]

58. We certainly disagree about the "farther apart" aspect of the two parties

But I'm glad we see eye-to-eye regarding the spirit of lively dissent!

[pnwmom]

59. Me, too. The reason I think we're farther apart

is that both parties, in the past, were "umbrellas." The Republicans included everyone from John Lindsay and Nelson Rockefeller, both NY progressives, to the John Birth Society. The Democrats ranged from FDR types to George Wallace Dixie-crats. So votes didn't divide along strict party lines the way they do today. Now, if you look at vote histories, there is virtually no overlap between members of the parties. Even the most conservative Democrats have significantly more "liberal" records than the most "liberal" Republicans. And this is getting worse every year. And I say "worse" intentionally. I think this divide is making it increasingly hard to accomplish good, progressive legislation.

[villager]

64. My own view is that both parties now simply offer different shades of Republicanism

But there's no home for a bona fide "liberal wing" in the Democratic party anymore. ]

Which is why many here talk out loud about going beyond the "be quiet and behave" ground rules (for voters) of the current two-party, one ideology system.

this unending skewing to the right is destroying the country...

[DrDan]

13. pretty much on inauguration day 2009

[Riley18]

16. There is not one thing I agree on with a right wing zealot.

That is not what I am upset about with our president. I wanted a public option, no vouchers for private schools, wars to end, equality in marriage and in the military, legalize pot, tax any "church" that gets involved in politics, reinstate the Fairness Doctrine, repeal the Supreme Court's allowing corporations to donate fund the same as individuals, and NO cuts to social security, medicaid, and medicare. My wish list also includes removal of all tax loopholes, increase taxes on those earning over $250,000, and tax corporate gains just a little. Jobs would also be nice.

[JuniperLea]

38. That's a very good list!

Solid... concrete... and reality based.

[stuckinarut]

26. Peace to you

...if you are willing to fight for it!


"I AM....a revolutionary"

[Fearless]

34. Fact!

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mmonk]

40. Because of perceptions and loyalty. Neither require reality.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bvar22]

44. You struck a nerve.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejvyDn1TPr8




Who will STAND and FIGHT for THIS American Majority?
You will know them by their WORKS,
not by their excuses.

[ej510]

47. That video explains it all doesn't it?

[JoePhilly]

54. Obama Bad Obama Bad Obama Bad

Clearly, Obama hates us.

:crazy:

[slay]

56. Everything you listed that Obama has done sickens me

he's beyond a disappointment - he's a disaster - and in no way on earth is he a progressive.

[woo me with science]

65. +1

[defendandprotect]

60. kr -- when those who push the DLC corporate agenda ran out of alibis ....

[Starry Messenger]

61. I don't get it either.

Somehow being left wing became "whatever the President's supporters say it does". Which is bullshit. Justice shouldn't be a movable feast.

[woo me with science]

66. When core principles were traded for money. nt