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Kos Diary: WikiLeaks Impacts Venezuela, Exposes Traitor.

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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-10 12:26 PM
Original message
Kos Diary: WikiLeaks Impacts Venezuela, Exposes Traitor.
WikiLeaks Impacts Venezuela, Exposes Traitor.
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by Justina

Tue Dec 14, 2010 at 07:21:49 PM PST

Venezuelan newspapers were ablaze yesterday with reports on the seemingly traitorous actions of Venezuela's Archbishop, Baltazar Porras, who heads the Council of Bishops of Venezuela.

A WikiLeaks document (See Cable) from January, 2005, details a visit to the U.S. Embassy in Caracas on January 6, 2005, by Porras, the highest serving Catholic bishop in Venezuela, Archbishop of Venezuela. Porras sought the help of then U.S. Ambassador William Brownfield and his government in "containing the aspirations" of Venezuela's president, Hugo Chavez.


To this end, the Archbishop offered the U.S. government the use of the Catholic church's infrastructure and programs within Venezuela, and especially those within the barrio or ghetto areas, to strengthen the fight against Chavez and his Bolivarian socialism.

Archbishop Porras told the U.S. Ambassador that the U.S. must be "more explicit" in its criticisms of Chavez, who he referred to as a "large problem" that must be "dealt with rapidly".

-snip

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2010/12/14/923066/-WikiLeaks-Impacts-Venezuela,-Exposes-Traitor.
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Bumblebee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-10 12:41 PM
Response to Original message
1. Perhaps "traitor" is a bit too strong? If a Soviet religious leader approached
the US in the 1930s asking for their help against Stalin, would he be a traitor too? (Stalin would obviously think so -- but would you?) This is the one where it's harder to choose sides since Chaves and the Bush regime were both evil -- but let's not throw around words like "traitor" all too easily. And let's not dance on his grave -- or misery -- as a result of the leak too happily.
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MattSh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-10 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Are you insinuating a similarity between...
Stalin and Chavez? Oh please, do tell use about it!

And you stated quite clearly that you see both Chavez and Bush as both evil. Tell us about the illegal wars Chavez started.
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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-10 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Continuation rather than starting, but his support for FARC leaps to mind.
I think that far too many liberals see the fact that Chavez is nominally left-wing and are willing to overlook his doing things that would, quite rightly, have them up in a frothing rage if any Western leader tried them.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-10 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #6
18. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
social_critic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-10 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #2
10. These are very strong words on both sides
Can't we all learn to get along?

I did hear a French official said Chavez was crazy. I don't know if there are any wikileaks saying Bush is evil. But those were cables written by US diplomats, so it would damage their careers if they wrote down what they thought about W. I guess Bush was evil, wasn't he? Do any of you work for the US State Department?
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dotymed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-10 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. IMO (we all have them)
Chavez has Proven himself to be much less "evil" than any American President since Reagan.....
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-10 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Or how about if a top US Bishop allowed Russian powers access to his infrastructure to 'stop Obama'?
That's be just peachy with you?

You see, the point that you are missing is that no matter how you slice it, it is sedition. In the case of Venezuela, it is hardly justifiable.
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-10 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #1
17. what has Chavez done that you think is so evil? Not renewing the license of a TV network that
actively took part in the coup against him?
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Hell Hath No Fury Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-10 12:55 PM
Response to Original message
5. The Catholic church has disavowed -
Edited on Wed Dec-15-10 12:57 PM by Hell Hath No Fury
leftist, Latin American liberation theology -- the Archbishop is probably working on Rome's orders.

"...and his Bolivarian socialism" - can't have people freed from the Elite or the Church. :eyes:
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social_critic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-10 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. There are elites, and there are new elites, and so on
The thing is, when there's regime change and a new elite takes over, then can we say the people are free?
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Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-10 01:01 PM
Response to Original message
7. The moneychangers.


Undoubtedly, the Archbishop is also quite disappointed that former Spanish dictator, General Francisco Franco, is no longer alive to counter Hugo Chavez. Undoubtedly, Archbishop Porras would favor a General Franco to wipe out Venezuelan socialism. Porras actively supported the 2002 right-wing coup d'etat against Hugo Chavez in 2002. His chosen candidate to replace the democratically elected Chavez was the then president of the Venezuelan Federation of Chambers of Commerce (Fedecámaras), Pedro Carmona. Carmona's first acts as putative president after President Chavez was kidnapped from the presidential palace was to abolish all the democratically elected institutions in Venezuela as well as the Supreme Court.



I was wondering what would motivate this Archbishop to do such a thing.

Thanks for the thread, mod mom.
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Hell Hath No Fury Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-10 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Wow.
Evil little fuck, that Archbishop. :wow:
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-10 01:05 PM
Response to Original message
9. recommend
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-10 01:50 PM
Response to Original message
11. 2005, hm. That's about the time that the plot to assassinate Chavez was unfolding within
the Colombian military, to be triggered around the 2006 election. Chavez had won the USAID-funded recall election in 2004, hands down. He was heading for an electoral victory in the regularly scheduled presidential election in 2006, which he also won hands down. The plot was to promulgate a false poll, saying Chavez didn't win, to stir up the rightwing mobs to destabilize the country, with assassination as the capper. The false poll was exposed. So was the assassination plot. The president of Colombia, Alvaro Uribe, was obliged to apologize to Chavez for this plot, in a four-hour meeting.

Bushwhack tool, ambassador William Brownfield, was then moved from Venezuela to Colombia, as ambassador, and, from that perch, launched several other nefarious anti-democracy, anti-left, and anti-peace schemes, which I won't go into here.

The Catholic bishops have opposed Chavez in several ways. I believe they were the originators, way at the beginning, of the first rightwing "talking point"-- that Chavez "is increasingly authoritarian." (I think that they are the source for the first AP use of this "talking point," with AP disguising the source with the phrase, "His critics say...," i.e., "His critics say that he is increasingly authoritarian." It's a guess but a pretty educated one.) At least one Catholic bishop signed the "Carmona Decrees"--the coup d'etat document in 2002 which suspended the constitution, the courts, the national assembly and all civil rights. Throughout this period, there was a very rightwing bishop--a man who had spent his entire career in the Vatican finance office, and had finally been fired from that position in the Italian banking scandals of the 1980's) regularly railing against Chavez from the pulpit, in Venezuela, in his retirement. He has since died. (He was very old.) In 2007, we find the bishops opposing the Chavistas' 69 amendment constitutional package, which was put to the voters. The package contained an equal rights provision for women and gays, and I'm pretty sure that is why the package was defeated, in an extremely close vote (the bishops got some Catholics to defect from Chavez). The rightwing ran ads that said that Chavez was going to take children from their mothers (re some education reforms). I suspect that the bishops had a hand in that wording, cuz it's actually their thing to brainwash children in Catholic schools, and they are forever using "motherhood" as their sword and shield. But probably Chavez's biggest sin, with them, was trying to cut state subsidies to Catholic institutions. After the '02 coup attempt, Chavez backed down on that one, but the Church hierarchy obviously continued their plotting and meddling in many ways, including offering up their priests, nuns, parishioners, students and others as a spy network.

This latter surprises me not at all.

To anyone who believes that there is anything at all--even a particle of truth--to the rightwing "talking point" that Chavez is a "dictator," I offer this thought: WHO suspended the constitution, the courts, the national assembly and all civil rights, in 2002? And WHO, on the other hand, has scrupulously adhered to the constitution, to the laws passed by the national assembly, and to the will of the people in honest, transparent elections and has protected and expanded human and civil rights?

I can present you with a factual account of Chavez's presidency that supports my view that he doesn't even remotely resemble a "dictator," but I won't do that here. I will just ask you to consider what sorts of people oppose Chavez--rightwing Catholic bishops, landowners, the rich, and Wall Street and Exxon Mobil and their bought and paid for government--our own. THEIR lie, that Chavez is a "dictator," is promulgated throughout the corpo-fascist press, as have other lies that they have told us. It is a propaganda campaign, and a very intense one. Consider the source.

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social_critic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-10 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. Chavez sure sounds increasingly authoritarian
if you could listen to the guy speak in Spanish, you would understand. The guy has a tendency to speak as if he had no checks and balances. This gives him a poor image.
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Lyric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-10 01:53 PM
Response to Original message
13. I don't understand why some uber-pious Catholics dislike socialism.
It's an economic policy, not a religious policy. Why do they even care about it? I've never understood this at all. My stepfather's family members are all Roman Catholic, and about half of them are rabidly anti-socialist while the other half are wonderful liberal Catholics. I don't get the connection between religion and economics. Maybe it makes sense for the leadership to want capitalism--it gives them more power when they have a small percentage of uber-wealthy members and a large mass of very poor ones--but why do lay people care?

:shrug:
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social_critic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-10 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Religion is closely tied to economics and politics
I'm atheist, so I can assure you I'm a neutral party in this fight youall are having. Religion is closely tied to economics and politics...it was very useful when rulers had to argue they had the right to rule because some supernatural being said so, or because they had the only radio link to the gods.

Regarding the problem in Venezuela, I think the church feels threatened because the government will eventually legalize abortion, and to them this is a big problem. Me, I got a problem with authority in general, so I like to criticize religious authorities and governments. It's kinda dangerous in some places to do it openly, so I'm not about to let you know who I am. :-)
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Lyric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-10 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Oh, I'm an atheist too. And I get that there are political connections
between religion and politics/economics. I just don't get this one *particular* connection--at least not for lay people. A socialist nation is still perfectly compatible with religion. It's just not terribly compatible for people who want to accrue vast amounts of wealth. Since most lay people are not gazillionaires-in-the-making, I don't get why they're so worried about it. Unless they're just parroting what the Powers-That-Be have decreed as Holy Writ.
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-10 09:21 PM
Response to Original message
19. Talking to someone about "containing the aspirations" of a government official is not treasonous.
I don't like this Chavez-as-the-state business.
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