The worst Democrat is still better than

[Mendocino]

the best republican, but it seems our democrat is trying to be a good republican. No I won't sit out 2012 but some may and likely will, and the person who should worry the most doesn't seem to care.

[gateley]

1. A DUer posted if we win back the House, Obama's second

term may "make up" for the first. More confidence? Less patience? Who knows, but it's possible. :shrug:

[BlueDemKev]

3. Forget it.....

We don't have a hope in hell of winning back the House in 2012 with unemployment at 9.2% plus the redistricting going on in numerous states which is being controlled totally by tea-baggers. If things don't change soon, we'll be lucky to hold on to either the Senate or the White House next year.

[gateley]

11. Yeah, the redistricting, too --

Well, if he DOES stand firm against the rumored "cuts" and IF we make it known (something we're woefully bad at) and make it known the Republicans WANTED to slash it, we might stand a chance. The vast majority of the country is saying 'hands off my medicare/ss' so... :shrug:

As always, we won't know until we KNOW, but it's impossible not to project and imagine various scenarios. :shrug:

[murielm99]

5. I don't believe that.

I think he will continue to allow a vocal minority to hold the country hostage. It happened during the first part of his Presidency anyway.

[gateley]

9. I understand, but I never give up. Not too bright, I know. nt

[Fearless]

19. How? He HAD the House!

[gateley]

24. I know, and he blew it, but I think a lot of people are having

buyers' remorse. At least locally, and that may spread to the national level, too.

It stuns me that that wasn't a lesson he learned, but I honestly don't see anyone else able to garner enough votes to keep the Republicans out. My fear of a third candidate would be a watered down vote for Obama and for the third candidate, and a Republican WH would be a given. As disappointed and angry and sad as I've gotten, I have no doubt a Republican WH would strike absolute terror into my heart. As bad as it can seem now, it'd be nothing compared to what we'd be in for then. IMO, natch.

[Fearless]

26. It would be nice to wake up tomorrow and see the president on TV

denouncing in clear plain words that he will not cut social programs. I'll cross my fingers for that, but I don't think it'll happen. Even if it's not SS/Medicare/Medicaid... it'll be food stamps, Pell grants, and so on.

:freak:

[gateley]

30. I just wish he/they would PLAINLY come out and say and

repeat and say and repeat and say and repeat that the Republicans want to decimate these programs! We do NOT know how to message!

That being said, it sounds as though he MAY be standing firm (although I don't know what the meeting w/Pelosi today was about) because Boehner said they're nowhere close to an agreement.

That's another great example. The Republicans pointing the finger at us, and we are just all over the place. Sigh. :(

[Fearless]

33. Exactly. Our people need to know (if) there is someone looking out for them. n/t

[defendandprotect]

23. Doubt it -- a ticket with Obama on it will bring revulsion now --

[gateley]

27. Why NOW? Did something happen that makes you say it

that way? The SS/Medicare cuts haven't materialized, so is there something else or are you anticipating that result?

If it does come down that way, I'd agree it would be his death knell. I'm hopeful it won't come to that. Strong opposition from the House Dems and several (according to Bernie, some who would surprise you) Senators.

[defendandprotect]

54. Are you saying Obama isn't a threat to Social Security and Medicare anytime now or in future?

You're kidding yourself if your BS meter is set that low !!

[gateley]

62. That's not what I said -- but it hasn't happened. If the

House and Senate don't pass it (IF it comes down to that -- Obama may yield to the intense pressure and pull them "off the table"), people have a short memory.

Most of America isn't paying attention to the goings on in DC (sadly, almost everybody I know) so if their SS/Medicare goes unscathed they're not looking for someone to blame. Conversely, if SS/Medicare is dinged, I think it's curtains for O.

[defendandprotect]

67. Once a president has done what Obama has done, he has to go --

doesn't matter if we are lucky enough to have the Congress intercept the pass --

Obama has been trying to make the pass -- !!



And, evidently, your judging how voters feel about him based just on this?

Too much water over the dam with Obama already -- we lost 2010 because of his

back room deals with Big Pharma and the private H/C industry in PREVENTING

A UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE SYSTEM!


Enough!

[gateley]

69. What should happen and what will happen aren't necessarily

the same. I couldn't BELIEVE Bush was reelected. Hanky Panky, I know, but close enough for them to pull it off. I thought NOBODY would be voting for him!

[defendandprotect]

74. Election steals by computer are a major issue, but not one Dem Party is dealing with ... at all-!!

But what that has to do with a challenger to Obama in 2012, you don't say --

However, the message from voters in 2010 on Obama was quite clear --

and what was Obama's immediate response: "I'm ready to compromise even further!"



:rofl:

if it wasn't so sad --

[BlueDemKev]

70. Not like a tea-bagger in the White House will be!

Think about it! Reagan's tax cuts 30 years ago were part of a long-term conservative plan to create skyrocketing deficits so eventually people would say, "gosh, I guess we just can't afford programs like S.S. and Medicare any more. That's too bad."

The Democrats created Social Security and Medicare and you can bet your house that our party will fight tenaciously to preserve its longevity, while the Rethugs loathe these federal entitlement programs and would gladly do away with them in favor of more tax breaks for their rich friends.

[defendandprotect]

75. Rather, I think that Social Security/Medicare would be in better hands with Sen. Bernie Sanders ...!

We need to see a truly liberal challenger to Obama in 2012 --

Two strong anti-war candidates -- maybe someone like Tom Hayden for VP --

However, there are tons of democrats available who could run on the ticket --

democrats who haven't been pre-bribed and pre-owned by corporations --


Obama has once again allowed the discussion to be monopolized by the GOP re debt --

Where was discussion of debt when Bush was setting up two illegal attacks on other nations?

Or where was discussion of debt when Bush was pushing tax cuts for the rich --

or for that matter, WHEN OBAMA WAS EXTENDING THE TAX CUTS FOR THE RICH -- ???

$120 BILLION IN TAX CUTS FOR RICH!!

:rofl:


What you're saying is that when the Dems have the presidency, the Senate and the House

they are weak and they lose -- and when the GOP has the House, then win!


:rofl:


Thanks for your assurances on the Dem Party of Koch Bros. funded DLC which was harbored

within the party for 20 years -- but it is Obama who has taken on the W Bush agenda re

Social Security and Medicare that we are concerned about --

[joshcryer]

46. There's certainly less reason for him to capitulate to the neocons. But it requires pressure. A lot.

[gateley]

48. I think the polls, the e-mails and calls he's undoubtedly receiving,

Pelosi's statements, Bernie's too, are putting the pressure on. And until he comes out and definitively says it is OFF the table in its entirety, the pressure will be on, I think.

[Hawkowl]

66. I'll trade the House for the Presidency

I'd rather the Dems took the House back, kept the Senate, and booted Obama out on his ass, than Obama being re-elected with the current legislative composition.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

2. Yes, but that's not saying much, since any Republican is like Nosferatu. nt

[lunatica]

4. Obama is preferable to any Republican

Anytime and anyplace.

[TheKentuckian]

7. Lincoln? TDR? Ike? Laughable. He's not so hot, better than the current fucks

and many throughout history but he's shooting for Hoover as we speak so it isn't much to have confidence in.

[lunatica]

16. I wasn't referring to history

I'm referring to right now. Today. This year. 2011.

[awoke_in_2003]

20. yey...

Obama is to the left of Hitler. WOO HOO

[lunatica]

59. So are the Republicans and everyone else

Dumb statement

[TheKentuckian]

56. Any at anytime alludes to history.

Yeah, he is better than the neobirchers but scarily similar to Dole, Poppy, Baker, Schultz, and is within shouting distance of Romney. Better but comparable.

[lunatica]

60. I don't recall President Baker or Schultz or Dole or Romney

[TheKentuckian]

77. I remember the politics of such folks regardless of the positions they held

[PATRICK]

6. A good citizen

can't just sign off on that farce especially when that weak vote is rigged and despised anyway. Can't sit home and die either.

Apparently the simple action choices are going to be "illegal" or ignored. Leadership in America is so bad all the people who want to be president don't merit it. Prestigious people and celebs get their aura from the same temple of corruption whatever their merits. The best neither lust to serve the nation enough nor can garner any permission from the grey powers. The threat is implicit and total for those who rightly don't want to be messiahs. In other words we have neither a third party nor a cast of independent leadership nor a forum platform, hardly even the smallest local one to get outside the crooked casino. No populist, GOP statesman or Dem champion or fiery labor crusader in revolt, hardly anything sustainable from big party whack-a-mole on smaller levels.

[Mendocino]

10. Ike once said,

that anyone who wants to be president is either an egomaniac or insane. I wonder where he put himself?

Leadership in the present is "I'm not quite as bad as the other guy". Is that their best?!

[whosinpower]

8. nope

The worst democrat will destroy the democratic party by crumbling the pillars that gave that party its relevancy.

Well - there will not be the partisan fighting on the hill anymore....because there will only be republicans - and I suppose, in a cynical sort of way - that does accomplish Obama's goal of changing the atmosphere in Washington.

If Obama succeeds in cutting social security, medicare and medicaid....he will have accomplished what Bush wanted, but could not. I could not support this.

[elocs]

15. Good point. Any Democrat who sells out the party's ideals and foundation is worse

than the worst Republican.

We expect snakes to do what snakes do, but the expectations of our own are, and should be, light years higher. Any Democrat who would betray the cherished values of the Democratic Party is simply evil.

We need to judge our Democratic politicians by their actions because we already know their promises are written in pencil.

[Mendocino]

18. Okay , you decide that a sell -out democrat

is worse than a repub. Do you sit out or vote for the repub?

[elocs]

28. I don't sit out elections, but that does not mean I have to vote in every race.

Whether any Democrat is a sell-out is a personal choice for each of us. If any one of us believes that a person who claims to be a Democrat but does not adhere to the cherished and long held values of the Democratic Party, being quick to compromise them away in the name of political expediency and has no Democratic Party line in the sand which will not be crossed, then it is our choice whether to vote for that person or not and that choice in no way means we vote for the Republican candidate.

[Mendocino]

36. If you don't vote, you are sitting it out.

[woo me with science]

55. Absolutely.

When Democrats have ceded their principles, there is no opposition to the evil. At least with a Republican in the White House, Democrats tend to unite in opposition.

[ScreamingMeemie]

12. The worst Democrat is exactly the same as the less than best

Republican these days. Sorry...but these policies are losing me.

[Mendocino]

14. The policies of whom?

[elocs]

13. Whether they vote for Obama or not, I hope no Democrat "sits out" the 2012 election.

There are too many good Democrats--local, state, and some national who need our support at the polls.

Democrats not showing up to vote is what helped to give us Walker as governor here in Wisconsin and lost us a great senator in Russ Feingold.

[Mendocino]

17. But they may sit out

that's the problem. We are held hostage by the prospect of a repub in the Whitehouse, but nothing we seem to offer is pervasive enough to ignite any support outside the base. Indies don't go for republican lite when they can get the real thing.

Take Ohio, they went for Obama in 08 but turned around and elected Kasich governer. JOHN KASICH!!! If someone could be tried for treason against a state, he would be 1st in line, or maybe 2nd versus Walker but I'm sure you get the point.

But as I put forth in the OP, it seems the incumbent is more worried about reaching over to people that will never vote for him rather than reaching out to people that will.

[defendandprotect]

25. Liberals are a HUGE voting bloc -- much of it suppressed -- new ideas and a new candidate in 2012 ..

could bring out all of them -- !!

[elocs]

32. How huge, really? Reality, however unpopular it is at DU, is that Obama will be our candidate.

Liberals are not children and are certainly smart enough to know that there are many good Democratic candidates, Obama aside, who deserve our support at the polls, people who have had nothing to do with Obama or the choices he has made.

Only a fool stays home and does not vote.

[defendandprotect]

52. Do you recall the vote for Obama -- ? That was liberals.

And, given to the stealing by computer, many say we should have had 24 more

House Reps -- an even larger mandate for Obama --


80% of the public want an end to the wars --

74% of Americans - 83% of Catholics -- want MEDICARE FOR ALL --


This is a liberal nation --

Proven by the fact that the rightwing has to totally buy and conrol every move they

make -- from their Goebbels' stayle corporate press -- to shutting down libraries and

NPR/PBs -- from GOP funding the Christian Coalition to Koch Bros. funding the Tea Party

and running it out of a PR firm guaranteeing them publicity.


There is only one way the right wing can rise and that's by polical violence and we've

had 50 years and more of it -- including assassinations -- and stolen elections --

all bought with rw wealth.

[provis99]

39. liberals are less than 20% of the electorate. That ain't "huge".

[defendandprotect]

53. What nonsense ... Registered Democrats are the majority --

Are you saying Democrats support an anti-FDR and anti-New Deal agenda?

It is the rightwing which is the minority -- a slim one -- winning their

rise via political violence over 50 years now --


Buying the movements -- from GOP giving start up funding to the Christian Coalition --

Scaife financed Dobson's org -- and other wealthy rw'ers funded Bauer's group --

to Koch paying for the T-Baggers and running them out of a PR firm.


GOP/Right wing religious movement is a farce --

GOP/"pro-life" has been financed by rw White Militia groups -- protesters at clinics

were solicited at Methadone clinics and paid.

GOP/NPR was radicalized and used to target not only liberals and moderates in the Dem

party, but liberals and moderates in their own party thereby moving Congress to the right.


It's a Hollywood Soundstage set -- and we need to break thru it -- !!

[elocs]

57. Are all Democrats "liberals"? Obviously not.

Republicans like to pretend they are all liberals, but they are not, but like the GOP we tend to have an inflated opinion of what our true numbers may be.

The post to which you responded simply said: "liberals are less than 20% of the electorate. That ain't "huge"." Don't make more of it than that.

[defendandprotect]

68. America is a liberal nation and they certainly don't want to see Social Security or

Medicare undone -- or damaged --

If you want to understand the nation and just how liberal it is, I'd recommend

Chomsky who often talks about the private polls done for elites --


And, in fact, the public polls now overwhelmingly indicate that reality especially

re health care.

As I've said even Catholics want government-run health care by 83% -- including

reproductive freedom.

But, in the end, the proof that this is a liberal nation is made clear in the lengths

that the rightwing has to go to fool and deceive the public --

If not for this Goebbels' style corporate press where would they be?

Any and all truth is a threat to rightwing myths and lies --

See: Operation Mockingbird for a start in understanding this --

[provis99]

72. the "polls" indicate the public wants it both ways.

They want government programs, and they also want their taxes cut. these are irreconcilable.

[defendandprotect]

73. They want taxes raised on the RICH ... completely in line with our history of progressive taxation..

when government worked --

Not only have the elites/corporations destroyed our ability to survive on this

planet thru their exploitations of nature -- i.e., Global Warming -- they have

profited by polluting and destruction.

The dollar bill translates very simply into unjust and illegal power --

higher taxes used to curb some of that -- however, capitalism is an evil and in

the end you can't regulate an evil.

80% of the public want an end to the wars --

74% and more of the public want universal health care --

nothing ambiguous about that --

[provis99]

71. most Democrats are not liberals.

Don't make the mistake of equating Democrat = liberal.

[defendandprotect]

76. Don't make the mistake of suggesting they want an end to SS and Medicare ...

which in itself makes them New Deal liberals --

Further, also remember that when the GOP/NRA was radicalized to attack liberals

and moderates in the Dem Party, they also attacked their own liberals and moderates --


80% of the public want an end to the wars --

76% -- and more -- want universal health care --


THAT'S PRETTY DAMNED LIBERAL --

and it's a NATION which is hugely LIBERAL ON ALL OF THE ISSUES --

[Blue-Jay]

21. Sitting on ass did wonders for Wisconsin, Michigan, Ohio, & Florida.

That showed 'em, amirite? Russ Feingold and Ted Strickland owe you a debt of gratitude.

[Mendocino]

29. I take it that that it is

not directed at me personally?

Or is just at people who sat it out?

You did say "you".

[Blue-Jay]

37. Not at all directed at you.

It was a collective "you", directed at those who'd rather sit out an election and let evil republican bastards slide into positions of power.

[Mendocino]

41. Thank you

I live in Ohio. I have to deal with Kasich, who is using state office for bigger things I think. I virtually guarantee that he will seek national office someday, running on the wreckage he left here.

[Blue-Jay]

45. I also live in Ohio.

And I'm proud to say that I collected signatures to repeal SB5. I'm still in shock that Ted got screwed by voters who were too lazy & stupid to see what would happen if we allowed that Kasich motherfucker to win the election. Like Scott Walker, he's determined to do as much damage as possible, and it sucks monkey ass that Ohio has no recall option. I don't know what pisses me off more - the money grubbing Republican assholes, or the apathetic non-voting assholes. The former needs a kick in the yambag, and the latter needs a kick in the ass.

[Mendocino]

47. How we went from going

for Obama, and then electing Kasich is beyond comprehension. I'm convinced that he stole it,... or I'm surrounded by self-serving jackasses.

[Blue-Jay]

50. It was a mid-term election.

People sat around and scratched their asses and let that fuckstick Kasich worm his way in. Thanks to those stupid ass-sitters, we can now be confident that the for-profit prison pimps will keep us safe.

I'd like to punch that guy right in the face.

[Mendocino]

51. Did you see the video where he

publicly called a state-trooper an idiot for a traffic ticket he got.

How about gas and oil drilling on state lands, including the grounds of state universities.

Or shipping Lake Erie water to the highest bidder. I think some neighboring states and Ontario might have a problem with that one.

Good old Governor K-Suck.

[elocs]

58. I'm in Wisconsin and that is absolutely true here.

In the election here last November, thousands and thousands of Democrats chose to stay home. They were pissed at Obama or in a snit about Democrats in Congress or something, but they just could not be bothered to vote.

I'm not sure what our Democratic candidate for governor, Tom Barrett, had to do with Obama or Congress, but not showing up to vote sure did help Walker get elected and put us in the mess we are in now. Also, Russ Feingold was defeated.

Walker received 90% of the vote total that McCain received in 2008, so Republicans clearly understood the concept that governments are formed, law and policies are made as a result of those who choose to participate in the process, not those who choose to stay at home.

Let us hope that Democrats can begin to understand that all elections are important. Choosing not to vote concedes power to the Republicans and they are now hell bent upon making Wisconsin the Mississippi of the North and I'm sure they would like to thank all Democrats who did not bother to vote last November.

[whosinpower]

61. Your right - they were angry at Obama

Look - if the voting electorate states time and time and time again that they want a public option in healthcare - and instead they get a mandate - they are GOING to be pissed. And they have a right to be.

Government is not reflecting the wants and needs of the public. The voter gave Obama time, effort, sweat, committment, money - they gave him majorities in the house, in the Senate AND the White House. And then Obama stopped listening to what they wanted, and started listening to health insurance CEO's, Big Pharma etc.

But, this new meme that is rapidly emerging - vote or else Bachmann gets in....trully shows how insignificant and powerless the voter trully is.

Betray your base at your own peril. But do not blame the base for the democrat's failure to get the job done.

[elocs]

64. Yes, I do blame Democrats here for not supporting Democrats who had nothing to do with Obama's

choices. Our Democratic candidate for governor, Tom Barrett, deserved our support because he had nothing to do with Obama, and by not voting for him we get Walker instead. We also lost Feingold as one of our senators and he was widely admired by Democrats all across the nation.

I reject the notion that voters are powerless. Next month here in La Crosse our Democratic voters along with independents and some like minded Republicans will defeat Dan Kapanke in a recall election. We, the voters, will do this and we are not insignificant or powerless.

[whosinpower]

65. Fair enough - good points nt

[defendandprotect]

22. Isn't it odd that even after 2010 disaster, Obama isn't worried about destroying the party? Odd?

[Mendocino]

44. It seems like

what his spokesperson so "eloquently" called the professional left is a footnote. He's reaching for votes he will never get.

[whosinpower]

63. I think he saw the 2010 election as a public shift to the right

And so he follows, trying to win hearts and minds of big business, big banks, and corporations.....giving them everything they want in hopes that they might reciprocate by hiring.

I also think this is a misjudgement. Voters on the left were sold out and so chose not to vote. They stayed home. They did not vote for republicans - they just did not vote.

Is Joe the Plumber's vote just as valuable as one of the Koch brothers - when we both know who has more money and resources to see policy go the way they want.....

[flvegan]

31. Sorry, not anymore. n/t

[Mendocino]

34. So will you sit it out?

[flvegan]

35. Sit what out?

[Mendocino]

38. By your previous answer you implied

there is no diiference between bad democrats and repubs. So my question stands.

[flvegan]

40. No, your question is

that "would I sit it out" and I'm asking you to define what I might sit out.

[Mendocino]

42. The 2012 Election

[flvegan]

43. Of course not.

Why would you even ask?

[Mendocino]

49. I was paying you the compliment of being direct.

Sorry for any confusion.

[rucky]

78. That about sums it up for me, too. n/t