ANTI-War Movies do NOT work.

[nomb]

Apocalypse Now, MASH, Platoon, Private Ryan, and even Catch-22 entice young people to consider war a really cool place where individualists triumph. No teenager sees themselves as vulnerable, nor do they ever see themselves as the hapless everyman who suffers in the war. Those films are powerful and compelling recruitment films.

Young men will always take the role of the hero who transcends and excels. They want, on some level, to go and test their mettle. Don't believe me? Ask the volunteer's, those are their favorite movies.

There is one exception that I know of, and it was a financial failure - you know the title but the vast majority of Americans never saw it, and far fewer still watched it through.


(PS: I was going to post this as a simple response here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1460202&mesg_id=1460202 but in the finest DU tradition thought this idea deserved a fuller discussion greater than a footnote. )

[david_vincent]

1. You forgot Paths of Glory

the distribution of which was squelched by the MIC.

[lame54]

76. my first thought...

would not want to be stuck in"No Man's Land" - or the military justice system

[brooklynite]

2. Are they supposed to?

MOvies convey the attitudes of the writer/director/producer. I'm not aware that (with the exception of propaganda like "The Undefeated", they're expected to have an end result.

[nomb]

6. The artists involved with each of those made those films expressly to teach and stop war

Yet they each ended up glorifying war and enticed young men to follow the long line of youth to happily stand and volunteer for their turn at the front.

[EstimatedProphet]

95. You really think Apocalypse Now glorified Vietnam?

Have you seen it?

[Hassin Bin Sober]

112. Yes. I do and I have seen it several times.

"I love the smell of napalm in the morning"

The Ride of the Valkyries.

I was in high-school at the time. I don't think it was intended but some people took away a certain amount of "coolness" from those scenes. Freepers are still jacking off to that song and that phrase.

[Erose999]

3. MASH certainly didn't make ME want to go enlist, lol.

[Electric Monk]

4. Your point being, people should stop making them? Thanks for your concern.

[Hangingon]

5. Never thought of SPR as an anti-war movie.

[dbonds]

7. Anti-war movies did work and teach the public until...

they came out with pro war movies like top-gun, rambo, all the chuck norris crap movies and so on. The message was lost. Full Metal Jacket is still my favorite anti-war, anti-military culture movie.

[nomb]

9. Full Metal Jacket is absolutely one of the TOP recruitment movies. n/t

[dbonds]

16. How can anyone watch that and see anything but insanity.

The first half is about the brain washing. The second half is about the insanity of war, ending with a small girl taking out most of the group with an insane look on her face.

You would have to be insane to want to be a part of that.

[Rebubula]

17. According to whom?

Not one thing in that movie made me glorify the armed forces or want to enlist.


I guess we will just disagree on this one.

[nomb]

25. FMJ is a favorite film of the following:

Via a quick Google search...


http://www.stormfront.org/forum/t709913/


http://www.nationalguard.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-11157.html


http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/archive/index.php/t-172.html



Full Metal Jacket is one of the most powerful pro-recruitment films ever made. Seriously.

[dbonds]

38. Those list are not because of recruiting status

The stormfront list is just a list of movies, it includes anything.
The other two list it takes a bit of digging. And I was at first confused because every mention of FMJ had a smiley, or a winky, or a lol. One even said "best recruiting film, lol". After reading the treads the like it because of it's realism. The winkies are because they like it despite it's political stance. The other movies on their list they all list because of realism of war. And they say they want to be close to war. So they are either already brainwashed, deluded, or crazy.

[nomb]

39. I'm sorry, but the Stormfront neo-nazi's are involving nuance in their fav film list in your eye's?

They like the film for the same reason the others like the film, the adrenaline rush of combat is brought forth in them and their imaginations. They want to be there.

[dbonds]

40. In their list was Star Wars, Stripes, LoTR, other films with no combat at all.

It was just a list of films. Not films that had a purpose. They may be a war mongering group, but that thread didn't appear to be on topic of war films.

[hifiguy]

105. Stanley Kubrick would certainly be amused by that fact

and probably dismayed as well. FMJ is the blackest and most cynical of satires.

[nomb]

108. He would not be. Remember he banned Clockwork Orange in UK after multiple rapists did "Singing in t

I was at the Scala theater in 1993 when it was next screened. That showing was unauthorized and bankrupt the Scala.

[marmar]

8. The body parts being blown off in Saving Private Ryan didn't exactly make war seem cool.

But maybe it's just me.

[Shagbark Hickory]

10. It worked on me. nm

[Cirque du So-What]

11. What could possibly be construed as 'cool'...

about a movie like Johnny Got His Gun? I saw it as an adolescent, and I certainly didn't ponder my own invulernability after seeing it.

[nomb]

13. That is the exception I mentioned in my original post. But few will ever see it. n/t

[Cirque du So-What]

18. Sorry, didn't read the OP

I saw sentiments similar to yours when the movie The Hurt Locker hit theaters, as some here insisted it 'glorified' war. Personally, I couldn't see the 'glorification' or 'glamorization' attributed to it. If anything, it made a strong anti-war statement that seems almost insurmountable.

[Electric Monk]

28. No you didn't. You alluded to it, but did not mention it by name.

nt

[alfredo]

63. The scene in "Hair" where the troops are marching into the black maw

Of the military transport was quite powerful.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhNrqc6yvTU&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Seems hokey now, but it packed a real punch with those who lived through those dark years.

The Detroit production of the play was charged with the anger that defined Detroit in those days.

[EstimatedProphet]

96. The scene in Apocalypse Now at the bridge is nightmare-inducing

Two forces opposed to each other with no leadership, no direction, and no way out, killing each other forever. Sure makes me want to go sign up...

[alfredo]

99. Yeah, that was one of the great war movies. FMJ is still

my favorite.

[Bigmack]

12. Same with books....

I read "Helmet for My Pillow", "With the Old Breed at Peleliu and Okinawa".....

and still enlisted in the Marines.

There are studies that show that the decision-making process doesn't mature early enough to stop young people from doing stupid things.

PS... I got smarter really fast.

[lame54]

78. you should have read All Quiet On The Western Front

[MADem]

14. They worked GREAT back when we had a draft during the Vietnam era

That was an unpopular war--not immediately, but when the boxes started coming home with bodies in 'em in droves, the "Silent Majority" of God-Fearing Republicans and Heartland folks began to complain, like the draft-age kids had been doing for some time, and that was the beginning of the end.

See, the difficulty in whipping up war-related outrage now is that no one is forced to join the military. There is no universal service, shared sacrifice (notwithstanding the rich kids who got "Guard/Reserve" slots back in the day), resentment at having one's life disrupted, or situations where people who were very bright and capable of much more ended up doing grunt work because the need was for combat troops, not brainiacs.

Today, people are recruited, they make the decision, they sign on the dotted line of their own accord, and most of them have an idea (often glamorized in their own minds) as to what they'll be in for. The reality is never quite so exciting or dramatic; there's a lot of drudge work, low-grade fear, and there's no Smell-A-Vision on those TV documentaries or films about service nowadays. And yes, young people think they are invincible, immortal, that they'll live forever...or at least a long, long, time. They don't realize that, the older they get, the faster those damn years rush by!

[KurtNYC]

15. Not sure what you mean by "don't work" -- they are MOVIES

You insert the celluloid, thread your sprockets, turn on the projector bulb and viola...movie. Fantasy. Artifice.

Did a little research. Here are films mentioned by troops and veterans as being favorites:
Good Morning Vietnam
Sands of Iwo Jima
Green Berets
Bridge Too Far
Dirty Dozen
Great Escape
Top Gun
Glory
Black Hawk Down
Patton
Full Metal Jacket

Not one ANTI-war movie on that list.

I think a more interesting question is how many violent movies claim to be anti-war movies. Reminds me of the preachers who rage against porn but have some pretty specific knowledge. The movies use the 'we're showing it like it is' excuse for their profit-driven violence fest.

[coalition_unwilling]

36. You don't think 'Full Metal Jacket' is anti-war? We must have seen

two different movies then. The version I saw concluded with a female Vietnamese sniper taking out several male American soldiers. That little vignette there captures the Vietnam War in a nutshell, imho. Nothing pro-war about it -- one of the world's largest super-powers fought to at best a stalemate by a little pissant rag-tag body of irregulars and NVA regulars.

[nomb]

37. Then why is FMJ at the very top of every soldiers and wannabe's favorite film list?

[KurtNYC]

74. I think if the message is too heavy then Americans ignore it

Case in point: Bruce Springsteen's song "Born in the U.S.A."

I don't think the center of FMJ is an anti-war movie. I think Kubrick wants to show the experience of being a soldier in 2 hours by giving us a hyper-real, fast paced assault on our senses and emotions. FMJ shows Kubrick's real skill at the end of his career. When you look at Strangelove, it's big picture, insanity of war played for nervous laughter. FMJ takes that nervous laughter inducing creep out to his most extreme by switching from big picture to the individual. FMJ is similar to a horror film -- external demons become internal demons.

I think there is a lot going on in FMJ and like most art people see the parts that they relate to. And even beyond that. Sometimes what people relate to is either not there or not at all what the artist intended to communicate.

[CBGLuthier]

90. It was a satire of american jingoism and militarism.

Only superficially was it anti-war.

[sarge43]

19. It's even more fundamental

First, most young people, and young women can be just as reckless as the other gender, think they're immortal. A lot of it is sense of time. When you're young a year is long time. So they're more focused on right now.

Second, unless they were raised in a dangerous environment, they have little or no experience with a lethal situation, so they have no built in "Danger, danger Will Robertson". This has nothing to do with intelligence or imagination.

As you say war is too often perceived as the ultimate test and thrill.

Damping down the potential backdraft I speak from personal experience. Looking back on my salad days I did stunts that now make me throw up in my mouth a little. "Jeebus that was stupid."

[Blue_Tires]

20. Watch these and get back to me...

Joyeux Noel
Dr. Strangelove
Patton (chock-full of subversive and ironic anti-war themes)

[nomb]

21. Patton may have been intended as anti-war, but it's a recruitment film that glorifies, Dr. S is

Dr. Strangeglove is hardly antiwar in any sense that a soldier or teenager would ever see - And Joyeux Noel is a tame re-affirmation of the greater nobility and brotherhood of warriors who are misused by poor leaders.

[Blue_Tires]

35. Also, a few years back there was a 'modern' production of Henry V

Which was turned into a harsh anti-war critique...

[Bluenorthwest]

70. In what way does Patton glorify? And in what way is the definition

of 'anti war' that which would be seen by a 'teenager' and also, why do you think teenagers don't see Strangelove? You are making many declarations without backing them up in any way. But to say it is not anti war because it was not made with a teenaged target audience (although the actual target audience in first release was in fact the youth) is just absurd.

[xocet]

22. How about Gallipoli? n/t

[Iggo]

23. Apocalyse Now certainly worked on me.

Saw it in the theater when I was a senior in high school and it scared the fuck outa me.

Helped make a later decision much easier.

[leveymg]

24. Guess we should add a lot of SF are war movies or recruiting films in disguise

Battle for Los Angeles - Made me want to join the Marines and go out and shoot aliens in their vulnerable spot.
Starship Troopers - Heinlein was an enthusiastic WW2 veteran, and it shows
War of the Worlds (2006) - Forget it. Unkillable enemy (unless you're a microbe). Too grim and apocalyptic to ever be a recruiting tool.
Aliens - Almost unkillable aliens (unless you're Sigourney Weaver or armed with a shotgun). Pity that squad of Colonial Marines.
Avatar - Best recruiting film for Third World guerilla resistance and EarthFirst ever made. Sigourney, again - saved the film from being a video game. Brew me a 10 foot tall Avatar body and let me lose on some construction equipment.

[Iggo]

26. Jeez. Have you seen the TV show 'Falling Skies'?

Oh my god, if I wasn't 50 I'd be joinin' up right now!

[leveymg]

27. Started to last night, but my kid wanted to see something else.

Watched Kelley's Heroes a couple days ago. Wow, Hollywood attitudes toward authority and the military have definitely changed in the last 40 years!

We're going through a deeply reactionary, and I'm afraid, pre-war period, now.

[nomb]

29. The point is that Anti-War films are made expressly to fight war - yet they foster and support War.

Kubrick is a great example, but all those artists involved were actively seeking to dispel young men from war.


But it supports their decision to enlist and encourages them to go, especially for those who explicitly chose the combat arms.

[Electric Monk]

30. I think you're the only person on this thread so far who agrees with your premise,

except for post #12, sort of.

[alcibiades_mystery]

31. I think you put your finger on WHY they don't work

"individualist"

The form of cinema almost DEMANDS a 'story' of an individual. War, on the other hand, while certainly experienced "individually," tends to be a population or group phenomenon: stuff happens to large groups of people without anyone in that group having very much control or leeway. Movies can't "tell stories" of groups, or crowds. Indeed, narrative itself has trouble with crowd or population phenomena. Every anti-war movie fails on this problem, even as they try to work through this problem. (Notice Platoon - as a story of an individual choosing between two 'fathers' - or Saving Private Ryan, a story that very much tries to focus on the problem of numbers and the individual in war, but can never ultimately resolve this problem cinematically).

Indeed, perhaps the only kind of anti-war movie that would work would completely abandon the individual soldier, would follow crowds, or follow individual soldiers as they are determined by population movements, then abandon them.

The problem of the anti-war movie is the problem of narrative: it must focus on the individual, while what is truly terrible about war is that it has nothing to do with the individual.

[kenny blankenship]

32. Two antiwar war movies that achieve their antiwar goals

Fires On The Plain, 1959, directed by Kon Ichikawa, and Come And See, directed Elem Klimov from 1985. No one could watch either of those and come away thinking "War is Groovy. I want to do that."

Truffaut explained the paradox of antiwar movies, which inspire love of war despite the intentions of their creators, pointing out that the exciting action surrounding the central character(s) can't convey the fear and horror they should feel because the audience is after all safely sitting in a dark movie theater. In almost all cases he is right - there is no such thing as an antiwar movie. The Longest Day, believe it or not, was supposed to be an antiwar movie, from the intent of the executive producer Daryl Zanuck on down. Hell Is For Heroes probably was too. But these films fail to produce antiwar sentiment because the general shape of their story repeats the general shape of Allied victory in WWII. The same war told from the point of view of one of the defeated sides, Japan, in Fires On The Plain leads to a very different feeling about the heroism of soldiers in battle. Instead of overcoming seemingly impossible odds to reach victory, the story and characters descend in an endless spiral into despair and destruction of their personal qualities. The effect of their heroic struggles to survive is tearing them apart as recognizable human beings, not elevating them to glory. Come And See is told from the point of view of one the victors of WWII, the USSR, but like the national victory of the Soviets in the war, the survival of the main character is Pyrrhic. One more victory like this and there'll be nothing left of him, body or soul - in fact the soul already appears to have been literally burned out of him by the "triumphant" ending. People who are faint of heart should probably not Come And See. Especially if you have any feeling for cows (one is shot for realz with a heavy machinegun), or are easily put into a disturbed mental state by images of rape. The story depicts the seduction of a boy into the resistance against a genocidal German counterinsurgency campaign in Belarus, circa 1943. During this campaign, as the movie informs us, some 628 Belarussian villages together with most of their inhabitants were destroyed, and the film's action will narrow down to and culminate in one such case. Although the movie Come And See appears to have been a mass audience hit in the USSR, it's very difficult to see how anyone could watch that movie like a typical war movie, thinking, "Yes, I'd like to be that boy and heroically overcome all the dangers that he survived, like he did. I could do that." If the main effect is to demonize the Nazi SS as an enemy against which no measures could be unwarranted, still War with a capital W comes off looking very, very unattractive, inglorious and the destroyer of all human good, in a way almost no other war movie has ever achieved.

[Morning Dew]

33. Samuel Fuller's The Big Red One (The Reconstruction) isn't anti-war

but has enough ambiguity to argue it that way.

If you haven't seen it, you should.

Here's the trailer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G01O8qM1Xvo

the full movie might be on youtube as well.

[BOG PERSON]

53. samuel fuller rules

he made one of the best war movies imo, the steel helmet

[Morning Dew]

68. I'll have to find it. There's a short clip on youtube. Looks good. Thanks!

[CBGLuthier]

91. Fine film. The reconstruction is next in my netflix queue

I often think of the scene with Mark Hamil shooting the concentration camp nazi over and over again and Lee Marvin walking up assessing the situation and handing him another clip.

Powerful film.

[dissidentboomer]

34. I think you're right, as they don't work on anyone except the

brightest young people. If you haven't seen Terrance Malick's "The Thin Red Line", see it. It's a fine anti-war movie and, while it is less graphic than "Saving Private Ryan", in many ways, it is more realistic.

Some wars HAVE to be fought but war should never be glorified.

[Bluenorthwest]

67. Thin Red Line!!!! Malick!!!

Netflix now, DU!

[krabigirl]

41. really? I think it had the opposite affect on me.

[JackDragna]

42. Dupe

Didn't think this post had made it. Edited away.

[MicaelS]

43. The problem with most anti-war films

Is they are made by creative people who don't have the first fucking clue about war other than "War is bad." Most of these people have never, and will never serve in the military. They don't understand why men fight in the first place. So it's like a virgin trying to discuss sex. Offhand, the ONLY anti-war film I can think of that made by someone who served was Platoon by Oliver Stone.

If I'm wrong on the last item, someone please correct me.

[JackDragna]

45. Elem Klimov, maker of "Come and See,"

..didn't serve, but he was in Stalingrad during the war.

[Bluenorthwest]

73. Geez, most of the WW2 generation served. I know Robert Altman

flew a bunch of bombing missions in that war. He made MASH. Which at the time was considered hugely anti war which it is. He also directed the film of Streamers, a film that really makes you want to stay out of the barracks.
He's just off the to of my head, personal knowledge style. You should, of course, at least add Stone's other anti war films such as Born on the 4th of July, Salvador, Platoon....

[JackDragna]

44. MASH I might give you. Maybe even the others..

..except Apocalypse Now. For that matter, you haven't seen nearly enough war movies, as that's a pretty limited list. How about "All Quiet on the Western Front?" Or "Come and See?" Or "Stalingrad?"

[LeftinOH]

46. 'All Quiet on the Western Front' was banned in Germany: it's pretty potent:

[nomb]

47. US Army newspaper "Army Times" list of Top 10 Movies, #1Full Metal Jacket

Fully half of the top-10 list were intended by the artists as Anti-war.

"Our Top 10 best military movies of all time" http://www.armytimes.com/entertainment/movies/military_afimovies_070709w/


Here's a very long and multi-page discussion by the military paper's readership on their favorites:


http://www.militarytimes.com/forum/showthread.php?1559410-War-films-AWOL-on-Top-100-list

[petronius]

56. I think you are conflating 'great military movie' with 'great recruitment movie'

A military person or paper liking a movie with an anti-war message does not at all imply that they missed the point or saw it as a glorification. On the contrary, it suggests they have a more nuanced understanding of cinema (and their profession) than you give them credit for.

As an analogy, google up some lists of 'greatest military photos' - you will find relatively few that would appeal to the shoot-em-up instinct...

[MilesColtrane]

48. "the hero who transcends and excels"

Like Private Pyle in Full Metal Jacket?

Maybe, you consider, "I am in a world of shit." a good recruiting slogan?

[nomb]

49. You really think the fat, slow-witted guy with no friends and hated by all is the anti-war messenger

Seriously?

[MilesColtrane]

51. His fellow recruits are made to hate him by their drill instructor.

He, and they, are driven insane.

So yeah, he's one of the anti-war messages in that movie.

[MilesColtrane]

50. Gallipoli, The Deer Hunter, Three Kings...

Why doesn't the Army hand out free BluRays of these to teens?

You seem to be asserting that the fact that someone in the military likes a movie proves that that movie is pro-war. Faulty logic, because you don't know why the movie is considered a favorite.

Also, there are plenty of people out there who completely miss the point of certain movies.

People think that Sam Peckinpah was into glorifying and making violence beautiful.

[nomb]

52. Deer Hunter? Very popular military movie, Kings as well. Most will never see Gallipoli

Plus for Aussies, it's a very patriotic movie that supports the greater nobility of the Aussie soldier.


As a sidenote, in reality it was an Australian officer, not an Englishman that gave the order to go over the top -- and the English units present also went over at the same time ... and were also ripped through losing thousands.

[JackDragna]

62. The Deer Hunter is popular..

..but there's no way one could construe it as glorifying war. The war ruins everyone in the movie.

[Bluenorthwest]

65. The Russian Roulette scene makes war look so yummy!

Clearly the point was to recruit!

[Hangingon]

94. The Aussies do make great military movies,

[CBGLuthier]

54. So any true anti war movie like Gallipoli, Johnnie Got his Gun, or even Breaker Morant

will be all dismissed because no one ever saw them or they were not financial successes?

[Bluenorthwest]

66. Or films such as Coming Home and Born On the 4th of July

which happen mostly after the fact of war. The Best Years of Our Lives, a great post ww2 film.

[nomb]

75. Aussies see the two as Anti-English, not as anti-war and they stir martial feelings in the young men

[BOG PERSON]

55. what about "the cranes are flying"

that movie is consistently anti-war, there is not even the pro-war subtext of individual heroism/sacrifice, or camaraderie or the bildungsroman-esque thing you see in many war movies where bloodshed and horror are a backdrop for our hero's personal growth and transformation into a complicated man.

[nomb]

57. I had to look that one up. 1957, USSR? Dubbed or Subtitled?

[BOG PERSON]

58. subtitled

it's a Criterion Collection release.

[nomb]

59. Perhaps I underestimated it's influence on American young men. n/t

[Baclava]

60. Fail-Safe is a pretty spooky little movie

From the 'duck-and cover' days (1964)

[NightWatcher]

61. ever seen Johnny Got His Gun (or Metallica's "One" video)?

[Bluenorthwest]

64. This is just silliness. First of all, the entire theory hinges on

not the content of the films or any results seen in the world, but upon the author's assumptions about what 'young men always do'. Not only is it conjecture, it is also a massive generalization about young men. To prove this about young men, go ask the ones who volunteered! Well I say you need to go ask the ones who don't, which by all reports is the huge majority of young men and young women. I say you need to take notice that even in the era when most film was openly rooting for our military, they still needed to draft the fuck out of young men to fill the ranks. Sure does not sniff out as if they are all that eager to go 'test their mettle'. They drafted and when they stopped the level of volunteers is tiny compared to those who steer far away from military service.
Now, without going into each one, I'd love to know which individual triumphs in Apocalypse Now. I'll add that the purpose of storytelling is to tell the truth, not to make some political point. The truth itself is anti-war. It has always been thus.
I would argue that there is no such thing as an effective recruiting film. If there was, the draft would have ended with the advent of the movies, and recruitment would be a breeze for all branches. The truthful nature of many films about people in war zones and war times seem to have reduced participation in military service in the US to near historic lows.

[nomb]

72. Film was found to exhibit both manifest and latent references to the four recruiting themes...

"The film was found to exhibit both manifest and latent references to the four recruiting themes, which included a gain in status, recognition of patriotic behavior, adventure and challenge, and traditions and honor of the military."

It's an object of academic study. THe line above was in reference to a specific film, but those "four recruiting themes" can easily be seen in most every military film with some exceptions such as "Johnny got his gun".

The reality is that few if any will ever see Trumbo's film or the earlier mentioned 1957 USSR film.

[Rockholm]

69. Independence Day, Transformers, Star Trek and Harry Potter glorify war.

Good guy, bad guy. Like the good (Harry is so cute) and whatever the -tron leader was called. Fun to watch, defeat the aliens.
REAL war movies, especially Saving Private Ryan makes war hell.......and should make people realize just how horrible war is.
For that matter, toss Schindler's List into the war movie genre.

[sad sally]

71. "Young men will always take the role of the hero?"

What about all the young women who are in the military today? There are about 1,431,000 people in the military; women make up 20% - thats over 286,00 women.

Why do people join?

Not all Americans enlist out of a desire to go to war. Many joined for economic reasons; the government helps pay their college tuition; immigrants are given an easier path to U.S. citizenship; some even join because they think it will mean a "trip" to Germany or Japan for them and their families.

Movies are movies; joining the military ain't a movie. Ask anybody who's been there.

[nomb]

77. Jarhead: A Marine's Chronicle of the Gulf War and Other Battles:

"We send a few guys downtown to rent all of the war movies they can get their hands on...we get off on all the visions of carnage and violence and deceit, the raping and killing and pillaging...somehow the films convince us that these boys are sweet, even though we know we are much like these boys and that we are no longer sweet. There is talk that many Vietnam films are antiwar...But actually, Vietnam War films are all pro-war, no matter what Kubrick or Coppola or Stone intended..."

[lame54]

79. I don't the name of the exception

[pinboy3niner]

81. 'Johnny Got His Gun'

See Posts #11 and #13.

[lame54]

82. I had no idea that was a financial flop...

i thought a lot of people have seen it

[nadinbrzezinski]

87. Most people do not know the fillm, let alone the book

it is based on.

There is a reason why...

Hell All's Quiet on the Western Front, a must see, is also not that popular.

[nomb]

80. "When I saw Platoon in its theatrical release, I was surprised by the audience reaction..."

http://critics.emphasys.com/Reviews/paths_of_glory.htm


"I remember thinking how sad it was that Oliver Stone had poured his soul into a moderately budgeted movie only to have ignorant jackasses misinterpret his message. Still, there was no question in my mind that Stone failed to make an "anti-war" film."

[lame54]

83. did you join up?...

because my take away was much different - the life of a soldier looked horrible in that film - filled with exhaustion and confusion

the final battle scene was intense - it was so confusing(deliberately) and scary that NOBODY would want to be involved in it - why do you think the guy jams a bayonet into his own leg when it's over?

[pinboy3niner]

84. People came out of the movie in tears, overwhelmed with sadness, unable to speak

I saw the same reactions nearly every night for 3-4 months, handing out Vet Center flyers after the screenings with my local chapter of Vietnam Veterans of America.

Our interest was in the VN vets, for whom the movie would stir up a lot of things (and a lot of them later walked into the local Vet Centers, carrying our flyers).

But I can't forget the night one young man came out in the middle of the movie, in great distress. He was an active duty soldier who was so affected by the film that he didn't want to be in the Army any more.

[lame54]

85. it is a great film - very effective

[Warren DeMontague]

86. I made the mistake of going to see a Matinee of "Platoon" in High School, stoned out of my gourd.

No, it absolutely did NOT make me want to get anywhere near a war.

[lame54]

88. then it wasn't a mistake

[Warren DeMontague]

89. To be fair, it didn't teach me anything I didn't already feel.

But when I came out of that theater, I was damn glad no one was shooting at me.

[lunatica]

92. Your argument is really shallow

And it's nothing more than an opinion which you don't even back up with any compelling reasoning or data other than a handful of people you've talked to.

It's like arguing that Schindler's List promotes actions similar to the Holocaust. It's just no so.

[nomb]

93. Actually, I quoted and linked academic studies and serious criticism - my opinion is not unique

And your Red Herring throw-away that Schindler's List promotes people to take Holocaust like actions ignores the reality that things like Deer Hunter, in it's most over-the-top revolting scenes of Russian Roulette (unknown to have occurred in Vietnam) have indeed led to hundreds (nearly 40 occurred in the US alone immediately after the film was released on screen) and possibly thousands of deaths as people sought to replicate the experience in real life.

These Deer Hunter deaths continue up to the present day.

[JackDragna]

110. Really? Where did you link this "serious criticism?"

It's certainly not the consensus by movie critics that war movies have this effect. I also seriously question whether some of the movies you've named, even if the effect in general exists, are good examples. You've also done a pretty good job of ignoring comments in this thread listing some pretty dark, disturbing war movies which would poke holes in your general premise.

[marions ghost]

97. No movies will make anyone stop doing anything

but they CAN inspire people to do something.

I agree war movies glamorize war, just as books, comic books, video games, etc do. Everyone identifies with the heroes. Movies stimulate recruitment. They can be used as pro-military propaganda.

I doubt anyone producing these movies does NOT know this very well. I don't think these were intended as anti-war.

If you were going to make an anti-war movie you would focus only on the horrors, and show NO glamorization or triumph of the soldier.

[masonjason22]

98. Platoon

But they also show how bad war can be. I think platoon was a good antiwar movie.

[lumberjack_jeff]

100. By "work" you apparently mean propagandize. And you forgot "Born on the Fourth of July".

We see what we want to see in any entertainment.

I think Red Dawn is probably the best anti war film. It makes the fetishists look stupid and silly.

I love "Enemy at the Gates" but it hasn't inspired me to buy a Moisin Nagant and volunteer to be a sniper.

[nomb]

103. Red Dawn? That's Militia music probably second only to The Turner Diaries as a Motivator.

[lumberjack_jeff]

104. Red Dawn fans are subject to immediate ridicule.

Teens would rather be shot than ridiculed.

[EstimatedProphet]

101. Flags Of Our Fathers, Letters From Iwo Jima, Enemy At The Gates

Not a lot of glorifying going on in these.

Enemy at The Gates starts with boatloads of soldiers rapidly turned into pieces of meat or drowned. Flags of Our Fathers shows the average soldier being made out to be a hero laughing at how stupid the attention is, and hating the people who are clearly using him for political ends. Letters From Iwo Jima shows that even our enemies are people too, not bad guys, and clearly documents how wars rip apart people's lives at all levels for nothing: the average Japanese soldier who had to give up his entire family for no good reason, and the officer who was forced into having to fight people he had detailed with and learned to trust and respect.

[nomb]

102. Those are some of the worst examples, total glory and Sniper-porn. You are obv. not susceptible....

You simply are not seeing it as the average American young man would.


The message they take away is Glory & Honor.

[EstimatedProphet]

106. Nonsense

Just because a message isn't understandable by a section of the audience doesn't mean the message isn't there, or is intended as its opposite. I'm not responsible for what a gung-ho 18 year-old testosterone factory thinks of the world, nor is it the fact that just because he thinks the worls is the way he sees it, then his view is the only correct one.

[nomb]

107. No, but those that fuel the fire, however unintentional, are held to account. Ask Nietzsche.

Nietzsche would have been appalled and sickened by the Nazis.

[EstimatedProphet]

I hereby invoke Godwin's Law

Also, those who claim that Nietzsche was a Nazi because Nazis misunderstood what he said are just as wrong. Your argument is akin to saying that just because a psychiatrist works on a schizophrenic and is unable to help him, then the patient really is justified in thinking he is Napoleon.

[EstimatedProphet]

111. Dupe

[grahamhgreen]

109. They worked on me.