What the hell is this "Cats are bad for the Environment" shit???

[Taverner]

Mojo has this story out about how cats are killers, and therefore cats = killers = bad for the environment. WTF???

One, if your cat is an indoor cat, about the most that cat will kill will be spiders and the occasional mouse. I think we can survive a dent to the world's mouse and spider populations.

Two, the cats who kill birds and everything in their paths are usually feral - and yes, perhaps we should do something about the numbers of feral cats. Tells me now, more than ever, is the time to spay or neuter your cat, dog, ferret, capybara or whatever.

It looks to me like the typical "guilt of the week" nonsense...

[WhiteTara]

1. Mine are merciless killers and I have to keep them

in the house when the birds are feeding, otherwise they would kill many.

[Taverner]

16. My cat, Sophie, wanted to be a merciless killer

But alas, she was a sausage on legs.

Keeping her indoors meant the most she ever had the opportunity to kill was a spider.

[WhiteTara]

45. Mine bring home rabbits. That part is good, because it

means there are fewer of the bunnies to eat my garden. They also bring rats, voles, moles and anything else that creeps or crawls or runs...I do put a stop to the birds though.

[Mojorabbit]

62. i do wildlife rehab

And get alot of infant bunnies in with puncture wounds and
degloving Injuries where the cat has peeled it's
skin back. It is a lot of work to heal the viable ones. I have a garden also but don't
Mind sharing some with the wild ones. I understand though that they can be a nuisance.t

[RebelOne]

81. I can't agree with that. I have had bunnies as pets and they are very intelligent.

If I caught a cat trying to kill one of my bunnies, it would have been a dead cat. In fact, I had a cat and a rabbit at the same time and they got along fabulously. Only problem is that the cat was a female and the bunny was a male and was always trying to hump her.

[Taverner]

85. I want a picture off THAT!

[WhiteTara]

100. That's funny! n/t

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

46. .

:rofl: "she was a sausage on legs". That made me laugh.

[Orrex]

2. You had me at "Cats are bad."

:evilgrin:

[crim son]

3. I have three cats and all of them

are excellent for my environment. :)

[pipi_k]

14. Kitties...

One of my favorite sounds is kitties purring.

The other is crickets.


:)

[dixiegrrrrl]

65. crickets purring..love that sound.

[Gemini Cat]

64. [phone]!!!

[yella_dawg]

4. We defoliate vast tracts of bird habitate for agriculture, buildings, etc.

And cats are the problem? Weird.


PS My cat just whacks birds with claws retracted. Never kills 'em. Mom's cat knocks them down and sits on them.

[October]

20. +1

All of my kitties were adopted through the SPCA and kept indoors! They were never a menace to birds -- furniture maybe. And they all lived to 17 -- my current kitty is 18+

[Gormy Cuss]

28. It's easier to point to killer cats (blaming bad people who cause feral colonies & free roamers)

than it is to hit squarely at business responsibility for degradation of habitat.

It's like making people feel good about saying no to plastic bags while ignoring the other retail plastic debris that we don't need like the ubiquitous clam shells.

[Viking12]

30. Illogical nonsense.

"X is worse than Y, therefore Y is not a problem" = Bullshit.

[joeybee12]

52. You're right, your post is illogical nonsense...nt

[Viking12]

59. Excellent refutation.

not.

[amborin]

70. American Bird Conservancy: Domestics kill millions birds yearly

http://www.abcbirds.org/abcprograms/policy/cats/materials/predation.pdf

[Viking12]

75. I'm not sure why you posted that in response to my posts...

I'm well aware of the actual science that cats are an environmental problem. You may want to bring that to the attention of the cat deniers and apologists.

[amborin]

77. sorry, guess i need glasses; thought i was posting to a denier

[NeedleCast]

78. Can't Tell If Serious

=|

[snooper2]

82. And somehow we seen not to have a shortage of birds

On a side note---

If everyone wants send all the feral cats to Dallas to kill off these useless POS rat with wings called the Great-tailed Grackle, we would much appreciate it :)





?w=300&h=228

[provis99]

63. Bite me. There. I just refudiated your post.

[yella_dawg]

105. Actually, it's more like X is a hundred thousand times worse than Y.

[Xithras]

34. We defoliate vast tracts of bird habitat for agriculture, buildings, etc.....

...and in the few remaining urbanized areas where birds can find habitat, and within the rapidly dwindling wildlands outside of our urbanized and agricultural lands, the remaining birds are increasingly finding themselves hunted by a nocturnal, domesticated, invasive predator that kills them in their own nests for sport.

All cats should be inside cats. Having an "outside cat" should be a crime.

[amborin]

91. yes, domestic cats are a huge problem; birds are critically endangered from many sources

they are not mutually exclusive

American Bird Conservancy says US domestic cats kill millions of birds yearly;

yes, so does habitat destruction

so do skyscrapers' night lights (night time collisions during migration)

so do pesticides

the point is: we need to stop all these threats or minimize them as best we can

[Blue Owl]

5. Let's take the author to a factory farm

Maybe that'll give him more of a clue where some major problems exist.

[NightWatcher]

6. and they sprinkle bits of kitteh litter around the tile floor, ick

[get the red out]

7. Rodents aren't angels

When my sister and her family lived in an old house they had a rodent problem and their three housecats proved to be very good for their environment(rodents can carry disease)! No poison was needed for extermination; and considering my oldest niece was just a toddler at the time, that was a good thing for her environment.

[gkhouston]

8. They killed the dinosaurs.

We're next. :scared:

[lapislzi]

43. I have it on good authority

...that cats kidnapped the Lindbergh baby.

[KamaAina]

48. Cats let Casey Anthony go free

:sarcasm:

[gkhouston]

72. And then sucked the breath right out of it.

:cry:

[Iggo]

9. Humans are worse for the environment than cats could ever be. (n/t)

[Arugula Latte]

31. Gawd, no kidding. These anti-cat threads are ridiculous.nt

[ZombieHorde]

103. One of the really bad things humans do to the environment is introduce new species into environment.

Such as cats.

[MADem]

10. Every cat I ever had was a champion mouser, which was wonderful

for me in rustic environments.

As for feral cats, a lot of animal shelter/rescue organizations are spaying/neutering them and doing a catch/release thing--putting them back in the environment where they've been surviving for their entire life, but preventing them from reproducing.

[Big Blue Marble]

11. Responsible cat owner keep their cats indoors.

The cats are at much less risk for harm or harming other creatures. I love cats. I use to allow my cats
to roam on their own outside. Now the closest my cats get to the outdoors is a open screened window.
They seem very content with that compromise.

Of course if your cats are currently given assess to the outdoors, they would be most unhappy to give it up.
It is best to raise them to stay in from the start.

[pipi_k]

17. Exactly...even if they're not

bad for the environment, there's the matter of injuries from other cats...dogs...and who knows what.

In my area, cats go missing all the time because of coyotes.


The other issue is disease.

I had two cats with FIV. Don't know where it came from because they had never been allowed outdoors.

It wasn't pretty. :(

[1monster]

39. FIV can be passed on from the mother when the kittens are born.

[dbonds]

12. What is really bad for the environment is humans!

They are killers and will eat almost anything. They throw away what they can't eat at the moment. Shit all over the place. Mess up the landscape and cut down trees. They even shit and piss in their own drinking water.

Now that is bad for the environment.

[pipi_k]

13. Lots of tame cats kill birds, too.

So do domesticated dogs.

My two girls have free access to a fenced in yard.

Any creature unlucky enough to invade their yard is fair game to them.

So far they're not fast enough to catch birds, but one of my previous dogs...a Black Lab...ate birds, squirrels, chipmunks, mice, and whatever she could capture out in her yard.

I won't even let them run loose, even though there's not a house within 1,000 feet of me. Too many opportunities for them to get into trouble.


Anyway, yes...responsible pet owners really do need to spay/neuter their animals.

[LaurenG]

15. I love my cats and they treat me well.

They eat crickets and moths and torture mice but they never kill anything except insects.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

18. I'm about to say something mean

I wish we had more feral/hunting cats outside around my home. The reason we don't is because I've been one of those spay/neuter catch/release program workers. My intentions were good. These kitties have tough, short lives filled with hunger and disease. They also hunt the local wildlife. I've seen the leftover baby bunny and baby racoon feet they leave behind several times. They do hunt (more like raid) and kill tiny baby animals when they're hungry enough. I imagine the mother's fend them off most the time, but sometimes they get a baby.

This year we have a very severe drought. There is simply no water for the wild animals. I provide two fountains and three birdbaths for the little animals, but you really cannot water the raccoons, skunks, opossums, armadillos, rabbits and foxes safely due to a huge rabies outbreak. Instead I'm watching them die slowly. It's breaking my heart, but there's nothing else I know to do. I find myself wishing there had been a few more predators out there keeping the local populations down so less of them were suffering so horribly now. :(

[LynneSin]

53. That's not a good enough reason

I mean I know it's heartbreaking to watch animals suffer during the drought - but that's how mother nature works - survival of the fitness.

Take just 4 cats - 2 unneutered boys and 2 unneutered girls - in 5 years they can have thousands of offspring. Sure these cats don't live as long as housepets but a female cat is capable of having. According to the Humane society - One unaltered cat can be responsible for 420,000 kittens in just seven years! One kitten, even in a shortened lifespan of 3-4 years could easily have 10-30 kittens a year. Now consider that half of those kittens are females - each of those could be doing the same. It is a serious problem.

I know alot of farms rely on feral cats to help deal with the mouse population (mice will eat the feed meant for farm animals). Many TNR groups can provide neutered feral cats for farms so the farmer can have mouse control without out of control cat population.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

60. Oh, I agree

Our feral cat population was out of control here 10-years ago. Which is why I got involved with the spay/neuter and release program in the first place. The cats were the ones starving to death then. The numbers starving this year would be massive and they'd, also be spreading rabies through their colony, and beyond it, if they'd not had their reproduction cycle drastically slowed. It's just difficult to watch what's taking place this year and not be emotionally moved by what I'm seeing.

[LynneSin]

69. Oh that I can agree with. One of the reasons I support regulated deer hunting

Same thing happen with Deer if left to overpopulate and not controlled in some way. Too many deer and many will be left to starve over wintertime. Also too many can be very destructive to farmers crop - one deer can knock over a slew of grains by running thru the field (most farmers prevent this buy over planting the perimeter of the field so they deer can't get in.

I know people perceive hunting is cruel but if it's done right it doesn't have to be. I'm against hunting when it's for trophy only - if you aren't going to use the meat the animal provides then at least drag your kill out of the fields and donate it to a homeless shelter.

[spin]

19. My cat has a catch and release approach to hunting ...

He doesn't seem to like to eat anything but his Science Diet cat food.

He has no interest in the food I eat either. I can walk out of the room and leave a full plate of food behind and he will not touch it.

Of course, my food usually has a liberal quality of hot sauce on it. I love Matouk's hot sauce and Dave's hot sauces.

[Taverner]

23. Your cat eats cat foots?

:)

[spin]

41. I should avoid watching the news when I type ...

Thanks.

[Taverner]

44. It's OK - I thought the typo was funny

[TomClash]

21. I like cats

And for some reason they love me.

People can attack any other animal . . . but they attack cats at their peril. :mad:

[theophilus]

22. I love cats but I realize that cats are very bad for small critters....if the cat

ever goes out into nature where there are small critters. When I was a kid our cats would bring dead birds and rabbits and snakes, etc. and leave them on the porch. Feral cats are a disaster for small animals.

[HockeyMom]

24. Once my cats got well into their teenage years,

literally not in "cat years", unless a bug was crawling on their face, they just sat there, or rather, laid there. Of course, they were INDOOR cats from the time they were kittens. My male Maine Coon passed 6 months after his 20th birthday. Think there are many 20 year old cats outside killing birds?

[murphyj87]

25. I used to have one....

I had one cat that would jump 4 feet in the air and catch swallows swooping over the sun deck right out of the air.

My mother used to let cats out and the longest any ever lived was 13. I now keep cats inside all the time and the longest one has lived was 17, and died of a blood clot blocking the main artery going to the back half of the body, paralysing the hind legs, and by the time I got him to the vet, the artery was starting to rupture.

[blindpig]

26. Invasive species

They destroy many millions of native species every year. Any outdoor cat is a menace to wildlife.

[Bluenorthwest]

89. Link please, to the claim that cats destroy 'many millions of native

species every year'. That is absurd beyond all compare, so I'd love to see where you get your rhetoric. Link away.

[Upton]

90. ....

http://www.abcbirds.org/newsandreports/NFWF.pdf

[blindpig]

93. I'll do ya better....

But let's just change that to hundreds of millions...

Domestic and Feral Cats – may kill 500 million birds per year or more. More information can be found at The American Bird Conservancy. Predators, of course, account for the vast majority of bird deaths each year, and most of this predation is natural. Domestic cats are not natural predators, but kill many birds. It is worth noting that house cats have been blamed for the extinction of two species of small mammals in the southeastern United States, and feral cats continue to be a huge problem where they have been introduced on many oceanic islands.

http://www.sibleyguides.com/conservation/causes-of-bird-mortality/

[Liberal_in_LA]

27. BS! Cats rule

[greytdemocrat]

29. Kats are eeeeevil

Dogs Rule. Everyone knows this to be true. :patriot:

[Arugula Latte]

32. Nah. Dogs are stinky, barky and slobbery.

Kitties are cute, soft and adorable and they purr.

:P

[greytdemocrat]

38. They want to kill you in your sleep...

:rofl:

[Arugula Latte]

40. One tries every night ...

She snuggles my head in an obvious attempt to smother me...So far she hasn't succeeded. :)

[1monster]

33. Cats do not kill as many birds as developers do. The meme about cats as killers

has been around ever since the flawed Wisconsin Study (http://www.straypetadvocacy.org/wisconsin_study.html) that cats arethe most horrible pet species ever!

Those who claim cats are these horrible predators also are quick to point out that cats are an introduced species! Well, perhaps, but the cats that have evolved into our domestic cats of today came to this continent about elevn thousand years ago... before what we call Native American did. If Native American came here about ten thousand years ago and can be called "Native," how long must cats be here before they are not considered "an introduced species?"

I recently was lectured by a pet store employee for allowing my rescue cats to go outside. The roaming area of these cats is one third of a block square. He told me I was an irresponsible pet owner for allowing seven of my eight cats outside. Never mind that the area has had in the past (and could easily again) a horrible rat infestation problem with literally hundreds of marsh rats. My neighbor routinely found rats nesting in her dryer vent hose. I had to repair 4x4 house supports on either side of my front door that had been chewed completely away by rats. I'm lucky the roof didn 't fall down.

Even so, according to the pet store clerk, I was irresponsible. His pets of choice? Pythons and boa constricters. Talk about introduced species. These imported snakes that are currently taking over the Everglades because the snake owners either lose them or they release them when they get too big to handle.

Oh, and all of my cats are rescue cats that irresponsible owners dumped. Thus far, I have resucued thirteen cats. I have had all of them neutered and spayed. I feed them well. While I can't say they have never killed a bird, I can say that it is rare that they do.

Birds nest in the pine trees in my yard year after year. The biggest hallabaloo I've ever seen/heard in the bird population around my house is when the red shouldered hawks moved into the neighborhood. More birds left the area then than any other time ever. And most did not come back. The hawks are still here though.

[NickB79]

54. "the cats...came to this continent about elevn thousand years ago". Post a source

Domestic cats have NOT been present on the North American continent for the past 11,000 years. They were brought here with the first European colonists several hundred years ago.

[amborin]

67. suggest you read this:

http://www.abcbirds.org/abcprograms/policy/cats/materials/predation.pdf

[XemaSab]

73. Cats have driven about 33 bird species worldwide to extinction

n/t

[amborin]

92. Domestic cats kill Millions of birds yearly in US:

check out the American Bird Conservancy and other sources, please

[okasha]

35. SPR--spay, neuter, release--programs

have been extremely successful in reducing feral cat populations where they've been implemented. The vaccinated and released cats either go back to the "wild" or form "colonies" which are frequently cared for by volunteers, and they do not reproduce.

Meantime, birds, rabbits, squirrels and other small wildlife are also killed by raccoons, possums, foxes, dogs, coyotes, weasels, skunks, bobcats and--horrors!--other birds. I had to stop putting up bird feeders because they were turning into a cafeteria for the local Cooper's hawks. And there's a pair of red-tailed hawks that apparently make good living off the ground squirrels at the city cemetery. They've been there for years and raised several broods.

[kestrel91316]

36. Outdoor cats can and do kill HUGE numbers of birds and other wildlife.

They also spread some pretty serious diseases amongst themselves and other animals and potentially to humans, too. Plus the risk of harm to them from physical hazards is very high.

That said, you all know how much I love the little buggers (I spend my days fixing their booboos, etc). I just want to see them confined properly like any domestic animal (yes, that means INDOORS, and possibly out a little with close supervision). I care about all living things on earth, not cats to the exclusion of all else.

[Arugula Latte]

37. Plus they do a service by eatin' rats and such.

Although my three don't because they're indoor only.

[DefenseLawyer]

42. An interesting glimpse into the DU mind

A place where science deniers are often and rightly mocked, yet if we touch on something the typical DUer loves, like cats, suddenly it HAS to be complete and utter bullshit.

[LynneSin]

47. It's not the pets that are an issue - it's the feral cats

If left untouched, feral cats can overrun an ecosystem having a serious impact on rodent & bird populations.

Many states have volunteer 'Trap-Neuter-Release' programs where they will trap the feral cats. After neutering them and giving them a series of vaccines most are returned back to where they were found. If you ever saw a feral cat with one of it's ear tips snipped off - that's how TNR groups track who has been fixed and who hasn't. BTW some of those cats might make it into adoption (not recommended, I adopted a TNR cat I thought was a kitten but turned out to be 3-4 years old and just a miserable sort) and pregnant ones are fostered until they have their kittens -usually kittens are adopted.

[Snoutport]

49. All the crunchy and delicious songbirds agree: cat's are bad for their environment.

[nomb]

50. In the spring our cats kill at least 1 bird a day, often 3. They are indoor cats

In the spring our cats kill at least 1 bird a day, often 3. They are indoor cats that go out for just an hour or so before we leave and can always be found within 50 or so feet of the house and never wander.

We live in a leafy but somewhat dense suburb with a number of bird-perfect mixed small pine and hardwood tree's such as redbuds. The birds are all killed on our lot. The cats also get other small animals but don't go for rabbits.

They're both over 12 and it was a condition of their adoption when we got them in London that they have access to the outdoors and that we were expressly forbidden from de-clawing them. We did however de=claw the top-killer but it seems she apparently doesn't rely on her front claws to take them.

I think their killing is reprehensible and we will not get cats again. They are environmental wrecking machines.

[Lisa0825]

74. Why not get cats but keep them indoors? Simple solution. nt

[Bluenorthwest]

86. Your cats are not indoor cats. You allow them to go out..

Declawing is a vicious action. Reprehensible, in fact.

[distantearlywarning]

95. +1

Declawing is disgusting. Anyone who declaws a cat should never be allowed to have another one.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

51. Not nearly as bad as people are.

[Contrary1]

55. It should read Irresponsible adults are bad for the Environment...

They are the sole reason for feral cats.

When I read about how terrible cats are for birds, I think about all those poor worms and bugs that the birds pick on.

:eyes:

[slackmaster]

56. If you look at an aerial view of the kind of neighbohood where most people live...

...you see a landscape covered with houses, pavement, and exotic plants. It's pretty silly to blame cats for environmental damage, when there isn't much left of the native environment.

[MicaelS]

57. "Perhaps we should do something about the numbers of feral cats"????

You bet your ass we should. Wild birds are one hell of lot more important than feral cats, IMO.

And if we looked at it in purely logical and scientific fashion, ALL feral cats would be trapped and killed. Of course that will never happen because there are too many feral cat lovers / supporters / apologists is the US.

And the "reality based" community falls apart when it comes to feral cats. Logic and science go right our the window and its all about emotion.

[nomb]

96. Around Adams County WI and north I know many people, including DNR that shoot feral cats on sight.

The DNR are are not shooting cats as per policy, and a feral cat is any cat in the woodline without a collar.


It's not something I support, but I do think non-native cats in total are a tremendous harm to wildlife.

[JackDragna]

58. Are you really shocked..

..by how millions of stealthy, efficient hunters kept as pets might have a deleterious effect on the types of animals they hunt?

[pitohui]

61. it's just good science

unfortunately, people reject science and the environment the minute there is the slightest inconvenience to themselves, in the real world, down on the ground, most people do not care about the environment, they would rather allow their cat outdoors

IF your cat is an indoor cat, it isn't in the environment, so we have nothing to discuss

the problem is that you cat probably ISN'T an indoor cat, and since the fledgling birds of the americas have no defenses against cats, which is a non-native species to the americas, they preferentially destroy the next generation of songbirds and other birds too, such as the ground nesters

this is not up for debate, it's stone cold fact, people who have cats and allow them outdoors SHOULD feel guilt and not just for a week, what they are doing is cruel and wrong

yes, ferals should be destroyed, but the people who prefer sentiment to science and who would rather see every small rodent and bird destroyed than to harm a non-native species as long as it's a cat...well, those people are the problem and their actions are extremely destructive but how do you fight those people? it is now known that there's a parasite associated with cat feces that more or less eats people's brains, causing them to put cats above all else, i meet these people, and they can be wonderful, marvelous people, but on the subject of cats, the cats have eaten their brain

what do you propose we do about it? we can't even get good laws passed to stop people allowing their cats to roam outside, too many people literally can't control their own thoughts and emotions on the subject of cats

[amborin]

66. Domestic cats kill Millions of birds yearly in US:

http://www.abcbirds.org/abcprograms/policy/cats/materials/predation.pdf

[BOG PERSON]

68. it's all part of the right wing War on Cats (nt)

[Upton]

71. Feral cats are ecological disasters..

they are an invasive species that kills millions upon millions of native sing birds yearly. They are even responsible for the extinction of some species. All feral cats should be hunted and killed.

Btw, I own 2 cats, I like them, but they are kept exclusively indoors..

[Taverner]

84. The reports on the dangers of feral cats are greatly exaggerated

In fact, a stat you don't see is that the numbers of feral cats has been going DOWN every year, due to neutering efforts in the wild.

[woo me with science]

76. Can we tie this issue to SS and Medicare?

Cat lovers will NOT take shit.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

79. .

[Terry in Austin]

80. At the cat's funeral

Alf: "Where I'm from, this is ludicrous. It's like having a funeral for a hamburger."

[JCMach1]

83. They keep down mice and OVERPPOPULATION of birds

[woofless]

87. My neighbor's cat killed my favorite garter snake yesterday.

Pisses me off. Snake shouln't have to worry 'bout that shit.

[Bluenorthwest]

88. We have lots of raptors here, so 'the birdies' are not all sweet.

Long ago, my father lived in a CA beach town where they decided cats were awful bird killers and such. They outlawed cats. My father kept his cat hidden inside. Well it was not two years before they were overrun in that town with mice and rats and other vermin. The authorities decided the thing to do was not just legalize the kitties, but also offer a cash bonus to encourage cat adoption in town. First day, Dad took his kitty down to city hall, got paid, and all was well at the beach again. True stories of true kittehs.

[Enrique]

94. aww

[thelordofhell]

97. Feral Cats are bad for the environment

If you're in Australia.

[ileus]

98. Some people want to convert cast to be vegetarians...

[Bigmack]

99. I don't believe anybody mentioned...

that any outdoor cat is "dead cat walking".

It's only a matter of time until the coyotes get them. Coyotes are all over the US... city, suburb, country. They are smarter than any cat.

In some areas, eagles, larger hawks, great horned owls, and racoons will hunt and take cats.

I like to shock cat people by telling them that if they love their cat, it must be an indoor cat. Turning a domestic animal out for the predators to get is heartless.

[NYC_SKP]

101. I would never say such a thing about our feline overlords.

And why would they wish to be bad for the environment, all of which will soon be exclusively theirs?

:hi:

[ZombieHorde]

102. Outdoor cats are killing endangered, native species in some areas of the US.

Here is a thread about it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=115&topic_id=296802

For me, the most interesting aspect of this is the fact so many liberals don't really give a shit about endangered animals. I had no idea, I was really surprised.

[donheld]

104. That was written by a Dog.