To teach cursive or not to teach cursive

[ejpoeta]

This may be a dumb topic, but the response from the main poster really got me and is what lead me to post this. I am Eileen that the main poster is referring to when she says how kids don't need to do anything they can't do with a keyboard.

MAIN POST: Today's Poll: Should school children be required to learn cursive writing?
Today's Poll: Should school children be required to learn cursive writing?
Should school children be required to learn cursive writing?
Source: The Batavian
Published: 2011-07-11 12:23:22 GMT
3 hours ago via RSS Graffiti · Like · · Share

LMP: of course they should!
3 hours ago · Like

SB: yes!
3 hours ago · Like

KB: YES!!
3 hours ago · Like

NC: Yes!
2 hours ago · Like

LMS: Why wouldn't they?
2 hours ago · Like

DJF: why if they write bad its hard to read and whats wrong with printing, in this world of typing and printing their homework whats the point of teaching cursive. most kids type out their homework
2 hours ago · Like

KB: The issue comes when they can't sign their own name or read something written in cursive. While we are tech oriented we can't lose the basics. Should we not teach addition and subtraction because we have calculators?
2 hours ago · Like

SMH: Yes!!!!!
about an hour ago · Like

ME: you know, part of the reason to learn how to write in cursive and to learn to write in the first place is not just to be able to write and read it, but hand eye coordination as well as concentration among other things. There are multiple purposes for many things at the elementary levels.
59 minutes ago · Like

ME: besides the fact that kids do need to know how to do things beyond computers and keyboards and video games and such. we are alreayd so disconnected from THINGS... physically touching the . pages of books.... pressing a pencil to paper and making words
55 minutes ago · Like

Here is the post that made me write this OP...
MAIN POSTER: Cursive is a waste of time. I've not written cursive since junior high.

Everything you need in life can be done on a keyboard these days.

http://www.indystar.com/ar​ticle/20110710/NEWS04/1071​00364/New-standards-don-t-​require-students-learn-cur​sive-writing?odyssey=mod|mostcom
44 minutes ago · Like

SMH: Maybe to you it is a waste of time. Many things children must learn in school are a waste of time and never needed. I cannot imagine not using cursive or it being taught at school.
40 minutes ago · Like
Eileen Ostrander I write cursive all the time. I do not use a keyboard for everything. I write things all the time. I make lists all the time. Write in a journal. There are many times my electricity is out. Or we play games that are not on computers. ...
See More
24 minutes ago · Like

MAIN POSTER: Everything you do Eileen can also be printed. Like I said, I haven't used cursive since JH. That's 35 years of getting along just fine without cursive in my life. The only time I EVER am required to read cursive is when my grandmother sends me a letter. This isn't about cursive vs. keyboard, it's about replacing a totally unnecessary school subject with one that is much more valuable -- it's just a simply fact, you can't make it in today's world without typing, but you can get along just fine without cursive. It might be a nice skill to have, but it's not required.

I think all kids should be able to compose a perfect sonnet before graduation, but they'll get along in life just fine if they don't acquire that skill. Kids will get along just fine without cursive.
17 minutes ago · Like

ME: I disagree. There are things that are in cursive. And if you can't read cursive then what. You just don't worry about those things? You are seriously hurting kids by taking that away from them. They don't need this... they don't need that.... this is their education. they need every advantage they can get. Cursive is every bit as important as typing or learning a language. There are many that argue all three of those aren't important at all. Kids could get along just fine without a lot of things. It's a wonder our kids are falling on lists of education levels.

I know this may not seem like a big deal. It's just a facebook discussion. But this is a mindset. Kids don't need cursive. Why should kids need to learn how to write in cursive? I mean, they can just type everything on a computer. Heck, why even learn how to write at all! Why not just learn how to type everything from the start. I mean, this person who said that they hadn't written in cursive in 35 years and their only use was to read letters from their grandparents, as if to say that the means of communication is antiquated somehow justified it.

There is something about that physical connection to writing that you do not get from typing. Sure, I can type, and maybe it's just that I haven't done it enough, but words flow better. and even when I start out printing, I end up flying in cursive. And I can remember all the time I spent experimenting with my handwriting. Testing out different ways to make it my own.

There is so much more to it than just something that you learn in school. You must exercise patience. And concentration. Hand eye coordination. Yes, at first you must learn it the way they expect you to, and those of us who are left handed can attest to that the most. They sure kept trying to turn my paper straight as I turned it back to the side. It is not just about the crazy Q.... but about the accomplishment.

We keep shaving off the top of education. And the sides. And around the edges. We cut in every nook and crany and make it so that there is nothing left but bare skin and bones. And then wonder why our kids are struggling with the very basics. There are lessons in every seemingly small thing they do. Every lesson had three other things it helped with. Every extracurricular activity and art and music class had some other purpose. But we couldn't see it's intrinsic value. Or didn't want to. And now that we sit and scratch our heads and wonder why our kids are falling further and further behind everyone else, we just want to keep taking more and more.

I know this may seem so trivial. It is, after all just cursive. Just one small thing. And maybe this poster on a facebook page had a point. And if I go look at the poll it will mimic much of the replies in support of continuing cursive learning... but what bugs me is this idea that everyone can just do everything on computers and no one needs to learn how to do something so basic.

btw:
Yes 79.62% (508 votes)


No 20.38% (130 votes)



Total Votes: 638

[phantom power]

1. I don't think kids should be taught cursive. One method of handwriting is plenty.

Although, my daughter is fascinated with cursive. She's also quite the contrarian, at the tender age of seven.

[OmahaBlueDog]

2. Teach them enough cursive to sign a document. Otherwise, invest the time teaching keyboarding

JMHO

[no_hypocrisy]

3. What's next? No teaching of how to print?

Cursive is more than handwriting. It's helping to develop your brain with fine eye-motor control, along the lines of learning how to draw. It's learning how to decipher others' cursive handwriting. Learning how to write legibly, between the lines, etc.

[tridim]

6. Maybe move it to art class?

I spent all my time in school drawing, and I hated cursive because it was so strict and "between the lines".

[ejpoeta]

18. It is only like that until you learn it. Then you can get creative. Once you get the basics down

then you can make it your own. I spent a lot of time doodling in classes while listening to teachers drone on writing my name or maybe a boys name on my paper bag covered book. Making my handwriting more ornate. More flowery. Putting little hearts on it. Or circles for the i's.

[xphile]

59. What art classes? The ones they don't teach anymore because it costs too much money? n/t

[ejpoeta]

11. I picture someone lost in Nebraska. They have run out of gas. Their cell phone battery died.

They have walked to the nearest house. No one answers but there is a note on the door. But they can't read it because it is in cursive. If only they could read the note on the door it says they are out in the barn. But since they can't, they are left to keep walking to try to find another house. but since this is the country, the next house is a fair distance. How unimportant was learning cursive?

How unlikely is that? I have run out of gas before. While getting lost. Though it was before I had a cell phone and I don't have a GPS. I could see it happening. But then I know how to read and write cursive.

I can't believe how many people seem to think cursive is so unimportant and that people can just type on a keyboard. I am trying to raise kids who aren't on computers and electronic devices all the time. I limit their access to these things. And I encourage them to draw, write... It's amazing to me when I go back through and look at my old things. The ones I have left that is. To be able to see my handwriting. I can see my emotional state while I was writing it and everything. And when I see something written by my family members... my mom, my dad, my grandparents... I feel a connection to them that you cannot get from a printout or a computer screen.

[KittyWampus]

53. Bart Simpson had a similar sort of dilemma set up around not knowing Roman Numerals

:)

[awoke_in_2003]

83. As if I haven't...

heard that excuse M times :)

[Contrary1]

4. It figures that Indiana would be pushing this...

along with school vouchers, and taking away teachers' ability to negotiate important parts of their contracts.

In other words...there's major money to be made by the Repubs in office.

Since Indiana is also busy cutting aid to lower income families, I would like to ask them this: What about the kids whose parents can't afford home computers, ipads, and the other latest gadgets?

[ejpoeta]

22. that's ok thought because we can just teach kids how to do everything on computers.

teach keyboarding. i am trying to raise kids who do not spend all day in front of a computer or tv or electronic screen. but you have a great point too. not every kid has these thing either. what about them!

[tridim]

5. Should schools teach Morse Code?

How about typing on a manual typewriter?

IMO learning cursive should be optional.

[eilen]

10. Dragon Medical 10.1 - Dragon Naturally Speaking Software.

Why stop at keyboards? Before you know it the software and technology will make you need to transcribe thoughts using hands. Handwriting thank you cards is an art of civility (maybe civility is becoming a lost art as well).

If and when we run out of electricity, I sure hope there are still a few religious orders that preserved the skill of handwriting and libraries in existence. I also continue to wash dishes by Hand (saints preserve us).

[Liberal_in_LA]

15. and horse shoeing. yes

[demodonkey]

27. Actually, that's a decent career... still. nt

[Liberal_in_LA]

45. I can imagine. Lots of horses around

[provis99]

7. Why teach math? After all, we have calculators.

Same mindset.

[joeglow3]

21. Not really.

We already teach children how to print. All cursive is is a different way to do the exact same thing: write. However, do you think we should require calligraphy? If not, why is it different?

[immoderate]

42. I had a student who could not write in cursive. Smart kid.

Working with the resource room teacher, he learned to do calligraphy. And he did it as fast as most students write in script. Every page of his notebook looked ready for framing.

My point is that skills like cursive map to several parts of the brain and are linked to their development. These centers may influence other intellectual processes.

There is no gene for writing, but there are evolved structures that support it. We know this when we see a disability. What other functions are interdependent on structures that support writing?

--imm

[joeglow3]

46. If concrete evidence can be shown, I could support it

I can't write cursive worth a shit, but have my masters and have a successful career. Short of signing my name, I NEVER use it. While your example is interesting, it hardly convinces me we should occupy everyone's class time with it. What we need is the ability to detect when it may have value for individuals.

[immoderate]

47. Do you play a musical instrument?

--imm

[joeglow3]

52. No

Although I have found it interesting that it is shown that individuals who do tend to do better in school. I have never seen the actual study, but one thing I wondered is if this has more to do with the parenting. Based on my experiences, the parents who would invest both the time and money into cultivating that skill in their child tended to be the parents who took an overall greater interest in their children. Is there a true cause-effect relationship between the two (musical instrument and schooling) or are both of them an effect of good parenting?

[gkhouston]

55. LOL, I take a different view on it.

When you've got a kid doing well in school, you need something else to challenge them, so they don't get bored. When I was ten, I sang in two choirs and was taking piano and violin lessons. No G/T classes at that time, so my parents filled in the cracks with music, something I was already fond of, and, of course, lots of books.

[joeglow3]

61. I agree with your view

I went to our local public school through 8th grade and was a discipline case. My parents were blue collar (dad was a drywaller and mom worked odd jobs) and struggled to pay for the cost of sending us to a college prep school. My mom just recently told me that when they went up for parent-teacher conferences for the first time, she sent my dad to my brother's teachers and she took mine, as she knew he would kill me if he was breaking his back to send us there only to have me screwing off. She grabbed him in the hallway after the second one and made him go to mine and all the teachers were talking about how well behaved I was and how great I was doing in their classes. All I needed was to be challenged.

Which leads me full circle to my views on this thread. There are core classes we NEED (math, science, history, etc.). Everything else should be tailored to the needs of the kid. Unfortunately, our public schools (at least the ones here) have been forced, by bureaucracy, to create boiler plate schedules that aren't tailored to individual student needs. Cursive added ZERO value to my education and, in fact, were my lowest grades in 18 years of schooling.

[Blue_In_AK]

66. I did that with my youngest, too.

She was already reading (Stephen King) by the time she was four and with her birthday in October she couldn't start school until she was almost six. I started her in piano lessons to fill the gap and she played all the way through until she graduated from high school. She learned how to practice, which bled over into learning how to do homework with no prompting. She was always very self-directed and excelled in math and reading. She was always reading something.

[immoderate]

58. I think it's complex. Well meaning parents send children for lessons.

It works for some, not for others.

In my mind, I was trying to imagine how handwriting could generalize to other areas. I occurs to me that cursive writing implies a sense of rhythm. Asking you is my attempt at a scientific study. :)


--imm

[Blue_In_AK]

67. According to graphoanalysis,

frequent breaks in one's handwriting indicate intuitiveness and, by extension, musical aptitude.

[jberryhill]

76. Kinda weird for the name of a "science" to be a registered trademark of one company, though /nt

[Blue_In_AK]

80. True enough,

but the course was interesting (I took it maybe 30 years ago), and it really has seemed accurate. I haven't really been into it much for several years, just as more of a quick glance when I see someone's handwriting to kind of get an idea of how they operate. I do know. though, that in the past I've been given writing samples of people that I didn't know, have done a detailed and specific analysis and have been told that I was right on target. I'm thinking specifically of people who have given me letters written by their mother or whatever, people that I didn't even have any direct contact with.

I'm sure there is a fair amount of intuition brought into it, and a lot of interpretation as to how different characteristics work with or against other characteristics, but still it was kind of fun. Honestly, I was a skeptic when I took the course, but it's proved to be accurate so many times that I have to take it with some seriousness.


And the reason I said "graphoanalysis" as opposed to handwriting analysis was for the very reason that the term is trademarked, I believe, to differentiate it from other systems of handwriting analysis. There doesn't seem to be universal agreement as to what the different strokes signify.

[jberryhill]

82. Different strokes for different folks, lol

[Blue_In_AK]

88. And so on and so on and scooby dooby doo. :)

[awoke_in_2003]

86. i tried explaining that to the teacher...

but she said I was just sloppy :)

[awoke_in_2003]

84. "skills like cursive map to several parts of the brain"...

there is where its danger lies- they don't want multi-dimensional students who have functioning artistic brains- they want automatons that can join the work force and be unthinking zombies.

[MineralMan]

8. I'm ambivalent about this issue.

My handwriting was always terrible, because I was taught badly back in the early 1950s, since I was left handed. You wouldn't believe the crap I got from my teacher for writing with my left hand. At some point, I simply switched to lettering my writing. I learned architectural lettering, which uses a minimum of strokes to form each letter, and people could finally read what I wrote.

Then, I learned to type. Within a couple of years, I was up to between 70-80 wpm when typing my own material. A little less when copying, which I rarely did. Then, in 1985, I got a PC, and my dreams were realized. One typing and I was done, since I could make corrections.

I've worked most of my adult life as a professional writer. My typing speed now is about 100 wpm, which is about the speed of normal conversation. I've typed literally millions of words, and type almost completely error free. I do not hand write anything except grocery lists and the rare check. My signature is still in cursive, but my wife, who is also a writer, switched her signature to a lettered signature many years ago.

Is it important to learn cursive writing? I don't think so. It's a good idea to learn to read cursive, I suppose, but that's lots easier. So I don't really care if they teach cursive writing in school. I can't see that it matters all that much, really.

Incidentally, I do still write in cursive, but only when I'm writing in Russian. There's not a standard lettering system for the Cyrillic alphabet, and some letters are actually formed differently in handwriting than in print. I don't do that very often, and have a Cyrillic keyboard I switch to if I have to type in Russian. That's the last vestige of my cursive writing, though.

[elocs]

20. The point of communicating is to communicate. If cursive writing is hard to decipher,

what's the point?

There are a lot of things that should be taught in school, but cursive writing ranks pretty low on that list.

[jberryhill]

63. I was going to ask about Cyrillic

Quite obviously, there are many countries in which kids are taught one way to write (e.g. in Arabic) and they don't worry about it.

[Jim Warren]

9. Oh my yes

The way things are going it going to be hell keeping the power on.

[fivepennies]

25. Well hey,

that's still down the road a ways so there's no need to concern ourselves about it yet. When daddy can't pay the power bill anymore, that'll be soon enough to notice that little Johnny can't read or write his own name. :sarcasm:

We are already so hooked into technology that if the grid went down today and stayed down, the entire world would be hung out to dry - right along side their undies that they washed by hand in a ... oh wait, the faucet in the kitchen would be drier than a bone, too.

[Jim Warren]

28. Do I have you word on that? lol

"that's still down the road a ways so there's no need to concern ourselves about it yet"

You're talking when tshtf, I'm talking paying the electric bill.

[fivepennies]

31. Actually I was talking about both

scenarios. When you can't pay your electric bill, or even if its taken down by a natural disaster, tshhtf as far as you're concerned, at least for the duration. Now imagine that its off for a long long time. Hell, the cashier at the supermarket couldn't tally up your groceries ... and the doors wouldn't open to let you in, anyway.

But this is about kids and teaching them what they really need to know. Sadly, they haven't been taught that for a long time anyway. Palin and Bachmann are great examples of that.

[ejpoeta]

36. omg! i've had that happen. i've been in the store and the electricity goes out and

they stand around for a bit and then send everyone out because they can't check anyone out without the electricity. huh!! how hard is it to add it up with a calculator!! that was walmart by the way. no back up lights or anything. they were going around with a flashlight. it was pitch dark as soon as you got out of range of the front of the store where the windows are. i had just gone in and gone right to the duct tape and had reached to grab the duct tape when everything went dark.

[fivepennies]

38. How hard is it to add up the total and count back your change?

They'd probably need a crowbar to open the cash register to put your money in the drawer or get your change out of it. Dead in the water.

[jberryhill]

77. When the registers are tied to an accounting and inventory system...

...then, yeah, it's pretty hard to tickle the inventory system of the Southland Corporation with a calculator and a pencil when the power goes out in a 7/11.

Ditto any organization whose cash registers do a little bit more accounting and inventory control than the one in Sam Drucker's general store.

POS systems do more than figure change.

[fivepennies]

12. I am just so grateful

that my grandchildren are all grown and have no intention of procreating. We're headed for a new dark age where only scribes can read, write and calculate and will use that knowledge to trick and control the slaves. Back to the future.

[PoliticAverse]

13. Teach typing. n/t

[Liberal_in_LA]

14. teach it!

[JoePhilly]

16. I've had teachers tell me its a waste of time.

And I agree with them.

Some above in the thread complain that this view also means we can stop teaching Math because we have calculators. They are wrong.

Kids learn to PRINT first. Cursive is simply a different, and EXTRA, way to write. Kids need to learn basic math much like they need to learn to print.

Other than signing documents, I can't think of many situations in which it is required.

DU had a huge fight about this a few months ago too.

[WinkyDink]

44. I've had ignorant teachers, too.

[derby378]

17. Screw cursive - teach kids calligraphy instead

I taught myself how to write in medieval-style block letter. It requires patience, but it's also a lot of fun.

[MgtPA]

19. In my state, the SAT's new essay requirement mandates that the students use cursive.

My 10th grade daughter has been in the Gifted Program since 1st grade, won 1st place in every science fair she has entered, and has been on the Distinguished Honor Roll since middle school. Yet, her cursive skills puts her well below my 2nd grade class in terms of basic legibility (I'm a Catholic school/Palmer Method refugee, I'll admit). Unless the SAT cursive requirement is waived, I wish public schools would teach these kids how to write!

[JoePhilly]

24. which state is that?

[MgtPA]

26. Pennsylvania

[JoePhilly]

29. Should have figured that out by your screen name .... I'm from Philly ...

but its been about 30 years since I took SATs there.

We're in NC and there is no such requirement. My son took the SATs last year and I know he can't write in cursive.

They need to dump it and focus on writing skills, not penmanship.

[MgtPA]

34. Hi Joe! It's been 40 years for me since SATs :-)

My daughter's cursive isn't just sloppy - her signature looks like she wrote it with her toes.

Seriously, I think springing the cursive requirement in high school when it hasn't been taught since about 3rd grade is just stupid and unfair.

[MgtPA]

37. P.S. Something I hadn't really thought about until 2 days ago...

When the ability to write cursive goes, so goes the ability to read it.

A new deli opened up down the street from us. A new sign went up - "Park's Deli". The "Deli" part of the logo was in block print, but "Park's" was in very legible cursive. My daughter, the aforementioned smart kid, said "Oh look! Pork's Deli!" I said "That's not Pork's, it's Park's!" She couldn't see it, and I was just floored. My husband launched into a detailed description on the differences on how "a's" and "o's" are written in cursive, and I'm thinking "she almost 16, wtf??"

[JoePhilly]

40. too funny ...

I think you are correct that it can be harder to read if you've never seen it. But, its so rare, that it still a very small issue.

As a related example ... kids learning to read can often read words that they can't spell. Studies find that people can often read sentences in which letters are randomly removed. Your brain fills in the gaps given the context.

The other funny thing is that kids can learn to read cursive using the various fonts on a PC.

Take some basic text from a web site, copy it ... change the font to the various cursive fonts. Ask a kid to read it.

My bet is that after a few trials, any related deficit will disappear.

[MgtPA]

41. You're right, of course, it is a small issue.

As far as the SATs are concerned, she's certainly not alone. All of her public school compadres are equally challenged. I don't know if the parochial schools have bagged cursive as well (I left in 1971 and never looked back).

I'm sure she'll be fine :-)

[kiranon]

49. My autistic son cannot do cursive but is very smart. Would apply

for waiver based on his disability. He prints very fast and is good on a keyboard. He tried to learn cursive (it was taught in his school) but he couldn't. One size does not fit all. He does just fine without being able to write it but he did learn to read it.

[The Philosopher]

23. I don't care for cursive

I think the argument that it should be taught for hand-eye coordination and whatnot is a fine argument and should be considered; but not the argument for signing documents. Handwriting is individual enough that print is fine.

I personally have difficulty reading cursive. Of course, I tend to be reading the cursive of someone who can't spell. But I'd rather them write in print than cursive. It makes things easier and there's nothing wrong with that. We're not building a rocket, here.

Now, just because I don't care for cursive and don't see the need to teach it (for communication--like I said, the argument for coordination is a fine one) doesn't mean I myself don't use it. I tend to blend print and cursive in my writing.

That reminds me, another argument for cursive is that it's supposed to make handwriting faster, as everything is smooth and blends into each other. So that's two fine arguments right there. Do I consider the argument "Everything can be printed out," a fine argument against cursive? :shrug: But I'm guessing someone's never been too poor to afford a printer. But, then, it's print vs. cursive, not handwriting vs. computer printing. On the latter fight, it's important to teach children how to write. When the zombie apocalypse happens, we'll be grateful we taught our children how to write on a piece of paper (or a wall).

[NeedleCast]

30. No. Waste of Time

Like the dissenter in the OP, I have not used cursive since middle-school. I'm not even sure I've used it since the grade I learned it in.

[AngryAmish]

32. I gave up on cursive when I was in 11th grade

It was not legible. I went to Catholic school too. Only F I ever got was in cursive in second grade.

Let it die.

If you want to see if kids have fine motor control nowadays I ask you to play a game of Halo with a ten year old and see how very fine their motor control really can get.

[hedgehog]

33. Yes - but only if they teach Italics instead of Palmer!

http://www.cep.pdx.edu/titles/italic_series/faq.shtml

http://www.cep.pdx.edu/samples/compare.pdf

[gkhouston]

50. Once I stopped getting graded on my handwriting, my cursive

started simplifying. I started out writing a very clear Palmer hand, and now write something fairly close to Italic. It's faster for me to write than either Palmer or straight printing. Actually, there was a guy in college who was a very slow writer who often sat next to me because I was a fast note-taker and he just couldn't keep up with some of the faster profs.

[Obamanaut]

35. I stopped using cursive in junior high school, and began printing exclusively.

Now, after all these years (out of HS in 1960) I still print, but over the years the printed letters look sorta like cursive, but none are joined together.

[Duer 157099]

39. The point about hand-eye coordination was imho the most valid one

it is an extremely important developmental tool that has an influence upon communication, reading, comprehension, and who knows what else.

[WinkyDink]

43. This again?! Fine. Don't teach it. Do what you want. Let'em print. Let'em use hieroglyphics. I'm

done with it.

[Quantess]

48. Cursive IS a waste of time.

You're supposed to make all those stupid loops the way the directions tell you to. You have to make capital Q look like a 2. You have to connect all the letters, even though common sense will tell you that some letters are a lot less legible when connected, such as "r", "c", "i", and "s". It's stupid! I get annoyed thinking about it.

[Kaleva]

51. I would have it taught but as an art class.

Some letters I've seen are a thing of beauty.

[Aerows]

54. Yes - but -

Some people are just better at printing than cursive. I certainly know cursive writing, but mine is just plain horrible. My printing is legible - I've written things in cursive, and gone back to read it and even I had no idea what I wrote.

My cursive has always been atrocious (which is ironic considering that I had a side job during high school doing calligraphy for invitations). I missed making the honor roll for 3 straight years not because of my academic record, but because the school I was in dinged me for C's in penmanship. I was also "flipped" in first grade from being left-handed to being right-handed in writing (conservative Christian school - they are famous for that shit). I have no doubt that caused some of the problem.

I hope they throw the whole concept of "penmanship" out of the window when it comes to writing style. If you have decent print and horrible cursive, or horrible print and decent cursive, that should be enough.

[rug]

56. omg! wtf? rofl!

[theHandpuppet]

57. And to think...

... there will be generations of young folks who will be unable to read our Declaration of Independence, our Constitution, Lincoln's Gettysburg address, et al in their original forms.

Yes, let's do away with cursive. It's too hard! (boo-hoo!) Who needs to add beauty to a task so elementary to our everyday lives? After all, as long as you've got thumbs and a keyboard you can further reduce the sum of our language to a few consonants!

I've never regretted being taught penmanship in school. As someone interested in both history and genealogy, that skill has proved to be invaluable. And yes, I do write in cursive. I stopped printing when I lost my baby teeth and only print now when it specifically required.

[jberryhill]

62. The "original form" of the Gettysburg address was orally delivered

I couldn't read a word of the copy of the Magna Carta I saw in Salisbury Cathedral.

I'm pretty confident that I still have the right of habeus corpus.

[theHandpuppet]

65. How odd

So you believe there were no written drafts of the Gettysburg Address? Lincoln wrote several drafts of the speech before and after it was delivered. All in cursive, of course.

[jberryhill]

72. Yeah, but you said "original form"

I've got drafts of all kinds of things I can't read.

Language changes. I can't read Chaucer in its original form either.

For the purpose of distributing copies of the Declaration and Constitution to the public at the relevant times, it wasn't in cursive either. It was set in type.

So, it's not as if the residents of the US at the time of the Declaration were provided access to a version of it in cursive either.

The first published form was this:



"The Dunlap broadsides were the first published copies of the Declaration of Independence, printed on the night of July 4, 1776. It is unknown exactly how many broadsides were originally printed, but the number is estimated at about 200. John Hancock's eventually famous signature was not on this document; his name appeared in type under "Signed by Order and in Behalf of the Congress", with secretary Charles Thomson listed as a witness.

On July 4, 1776, Congress ordered the same committee charged with writing the document to "superintend and correct the press", that is, supervise the printing."

Congress... or Congrefs... didn't intend it to be read in cursive, and it is likely that a larger proportion of the public at that time couldn't read it in either form.

Being able to "read the Declaration in cursive" is something that most generations of Americans have not been able to do, since it requires either (a) physical access to the document or (b) the ability to print image reproductions, which was not common in textbooks for a long time.

[theHandpuppet]

79. Yes, I said original form

For instance, Lincoln's original drafts for the Gettysburg Address are written in cursive. These original drafts, and in particular a document such as the Hays copy of Lincoln's speech, are particularly interesting for the handwritten notes and corrections made by Lincoln which differ from the speech as it was delivered to an audience or printed forms later distributed to the public. Being able to read these documents as they were developed and refined really provides a perspective and insight lacking in printed documents distributed for public consumption.

I'm not backing down from what I said earlier and your presentation of a printed document does not quailify as an original form to which I referred. Lincoln's penmanship wasn't so great, either, but it was uniquely HIS and seeing something written in his hand really brings the words to life in a special way, at least for me.

[Quantess]

89. It isn't "too hard", it's boring! It took up SEVERAL HOURS of class time.

I was really good at cursive, but I still thought it was ANNOYING, and so tedious. No, I really didn't appreciate writing "Queen" starting with a loopy 2.

I could do it well, but I felt a bit resentful at having to write in such an unnatural, illegible script. Too many loops. It looks corny.
Spending all that time practicing cursive made me want to act out in a rebellious way. Here's the voice of childhood rebellion still within me: CURSIVE SUCKS! :evilgrin:

[jberryhill]

60. Does it hurt Chinese or Arabic kids not to learn it?

In how many countries are students taught two ways to write?

[theHandpuppet]

69. Why does that matter?

If Johnny doesn't have to do it, why should I? Curious argument.

[jberryhill]

75. The point being....

That there are educational systems which are beating our pants off in things that matter more than how to saddle a horse.

Nobody sets moveable type anymore either.

[Blue_In_AK]

64. Cursive writing is an expression of one's individuality.

I'm partial to cursive writing because I've studied graphoanalysis, and it's pretty amazing what one's cursive writing can reveal about a person.

It's an expressive art form and should be taught, but each individual should be free to incorporate their own style into their writing.

[WatsonT]

68. So our kids can barely read, do horribly in math and science, so now we must cut cursive

what *are* they teaching them then?

[FLAprogressive]

70. That's the reason why we SHOULD be cutting cursive. Devoting class time to an anachronism...

...does not make much sense when students are failing at things that will actually be useful in the modern world.

[WatsonT]

71. But will this be partnered with an increase focus on math/science?

I'm doubtful.

Why teach writing at all? Everyone types/texts everything these days anyway. For that matter every phone/computer has a calculator on it, so math is mostly pointless. Spell check should replace most english classes.

If you want to learn history or need to translate a foreign language just go to wikipedia/babel fish.

[FLAprogressive]

74. How about an increase on reading comprehension, that's the big problem. If we can teach students to

read and think math and science will come easier.

[WatsonT]

91. Ok, so what efforts are being made in that direction?

Will cutting cursive help them understand what they read any better?

[Whisp]

73. It's like art. Everyone has a different expression in writing.

would be a shame to lose even that when anything artsy is under such threat of more cuts.

[Presidentcokedupfratboy]

78. Teach it!!!

I can't see how it hurts kids, and it reinforces their knowledge of the alphabet and spelling IMHO.

[awoke_in_2003]

81. Learning to write in cursive...

allows one to read it easier. One of our most important documents is written mostly in cursive- yeah, I know you can get nicely printed copies, but isn't it nice to be able to go to DC and read the original?

[jberryhill]

85. Virtually nobody saw that in 1776 or for decades

The Continental Congress published it like this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_history_of_the_United_States_Declaration_of_Independence#Dunlap_broadside



The fact that you even know what it looks like is a consequence of modern imaging and printing capability.

Back in the day, everyone read it in type.

In order to see it in cursive, one had to go see it.

But they STILL won't publish the stuff written on the back.

[awoke_in_2003]

87. True...

but I look forward to the day when I can afford to go to DC and see the original- even if it is behind a foot of glass.

[Badsam]

90. NOT

[dembotoz]

92. yes teach it--and i rarely use it.

my penmanship is awful
i realize that
i never use cursive
if i have to i sometimes have to ponder a second as to just how does that letter go.....

but it should be taught.