M-Live poll: Are teachers overpaid?

[Bozita]

Poll: Are teachers overpaid?
Published: Friday, July 08, 2011, 8:15 AM Updated: Friday, July 08, 2011, 12:36 PM
By Brandon Howell | The Bay City Times


The compensation of public school teachers — among other employees in the public sector — has come under intense scrutiny of late.

As the kinds of cutbacks and belt-tightening first felt by the private sector in 2008 make their way to public institutions, the matter of wage has become a hot topic.

A recent look at salaries and wages of Bay City Public Schools teachers by The Bay City Times ignited a firestorm of discussion on that topic among MLive readers.

-snip-


ickym
June 28, 2011 at 3:31PM
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I seriously did not realize that teachers were paid so well. When you consider they have the summer off, and only work their so called 50 hours per week - part of the year, wow. And they get holidays off?

In private industry, our salaried average work year averaged 3,000 to 5,000 hours per year for most of my career, and we received zero overtime and no bonus, and the benefits were slim. And, if we were to have made $63,000 per year, we would have been considered rich. I don't think the teachers have a realistic knowledge of what is happening in the real word of the private businesses. And, we were measured on specific performance criteria, output, quality of work, leadership skills, and if we failed to meet the specific standards, we were generally fired. There was no tenure which protected salaried workers. And, I never remember having more than three days off any summer during 48 years.

But we were not wimps, and we never required a so called Union rep. to speak for ourselves. We have pride in our own merit and that was what counted.

-snip-

Public school officials have not been absent from the debate. Take, for example, Bangor Township Schools Trustee Tim Allen, who lamented the comparable wages of first-year public school teachers in Michigan and dog trainers:

"So for all comparable purposes, a first-year teacher makes as much as a dog trainer," Allen said last week. "Someone who teaches our children to read, write and calculate makes as much as someone who teaches a dog to walk on a leash. If that doesn't bother you, I don't know what does."

more...
http://www.mlive.com/news/bay-city/index.ssf/2011/07/poll_are_teachers_overpaid.html

[WatsonT]

1. Some are, most aren't

most of the problems lie with the administrators.

[gratuitous]

2. We'd have a helluva lot more teachers if they were overpaid

Free market and all that. Schools would have their pick of a huge crop of the very best candidates if teachers were overpaid. Since that's not the case, we can conclude . . . ?

(By the way, if you can figure this out, you probably had one of the good teachers.)

[SteppingRazor]

3. I've said it before, I'll say it again. If you have a problem with teachers' benefits ...

being better than yours, then rather than excoriating the teachers and trying to drag them down to your pathetic, just-above-penury-and-bowing-to-your-corporate-masters level, you should be fighting like hell to get to the same level the teachers are at. The problem is not with their profession, the problem is with yours. Unions did not secure these benefits for their members by sitting around and decrying the unfairness of it all. They fought for them and not all that long ago, they were dying for them. If you have a problem with the benefits of another worker, then don't decry that worker. Get out and fight for yourself, because the bosses aren't going to hand you anything.

[proud2BlibKansan]

5. +1,000,000

:applause:

[SteppingRazor]

16. Thanks! You're forgiven for having gone to KU.

MIZZOU-RAH! ;)

[proud2BlibKansan]

18. LOL!!

[taught_me_patience]

7. This is not a good way to get people to be sympathetic to your argument

In fact, it's a good way to get people to harden their sentiment against your argument.

[SteppingRazor]

15. I'm not attempting to make a persuasive argument to the other side of a debate here.

I'm stating what I believe needs to happen in a particular worker's situation.

[MADem]

4. I think a percentage of 'em "phone it in" pretty near, and they're the ones who have tenure and give

the ones that give a crap a bad name.

A first year teacher might make dog trainer salaries in some communities, but in others, not. The wealthier towns pay their newbie teachers pretty well. A lot of those teachers have summer jobs in resort communities, too, which plus up their annual salary.

[MadHound]

8. And just how big a percentage do you think "phone it in"?

As far as first year teachers' salaries, the average salary is about thirty three thousand. Not much, compared to what other degreed college grads get in their first job.

And most teachers don't take summer jobs because they are busy prepping for the next year, getting continuing education, etc.

[MADem]

28. Well, I suppose it depends upon the culture and climate of the school

as well as the leadership of the administrators.

I know one town that paid well but couldn't get rid of lousy teachers--they'd sue, the union would jump on it, the lawyers would get paid a zillion, there would be a settlement and a nondisclosure agreement, and the taxes would go up...while the scores went down. The school system was one of the better ones in the state, too--but I don't think the townsfolk were getting their money's worth.

But that's just anecdotal. I didn't say ALL of them suck, I said some do, and the ones that do are hard as hell to shift. I've known teachers and administrators who have been sent to "anger management" three or four times, with no real consequences. I mean, really, WTF? How many times can you blow up at kids, parents, other teachers, before it's time to say "There's the door--don't let it hit you on the ass on your way out?"

I beg to differ about the summer jobs thing--I know three teachers who are waiting table in a resort area and laughing all the way to the bank. Another friend of mine who teaches HS is vacationing in Europe for six weeks, lucky dog.

You can get "continuing education" online, in your underwear, at two in the morning, AND year round. You don't have to do it in the summertime.

I think good teachers DESERVE decent pay, don't get me wrong. But there needs to be a better method of sorting out the bad apples. Once they hit the magic TENURE button, they're like gum stuck to your shoe, even if they suck. And that needs to change. There needs to be balance between affording senior teachers job security, but not letting them tell the students to read twenty pages while they play Spider Solitaire. There needs to be a shift in the whole process that encourages good teachers to become better teachers, and rewards them when they do that. How that should happen? I have no idea....but the person who figures it out will be lauded as a genius.

[Hangingon]

6. You spent a career in a tough job area.

The usual work year is paid 2080 hours gross. This includes breaks, holidays and all leave. Your 3000 hours is 8.4 hours a day for a 7 day week and 5000 is 13.6 hours both without holidays or leave. How long were you amle to sustain this?

[FormerDittoHead]

11. Good catch. Those numbers don't add up. 5,000 hours = 13.6 hours * 365 days.

I knew a woman who DID work like that but she was vested in an IPO.

Everyone thought she was crazy, but she was in her 50's and saw this as her retirement plan.

She worked that way because she saw a big fat payoff at the end ($300,000 worth of stock for the year plus salary).

There was no way she was going to CONTINUE working like that, however.

PS: THE WHOLE THING WENT BELLY UP (nothing to do with her) - ALL HER SACRIFICES ENDED UP WORTHLESS.

Funny how all of those CNBC fairy tale stories don't tell you about people like MaryAnne.

[RaleighNCDUer]

13. I think somebody didn't pay attention to his math teacher. nt

[etherealtruth]

25. I will tell you this ...

I average at 60+ hours /week (salaried for 40/ no comp time) .... considering vacations and holidays .... I've worked about 3,000 hours/year for the last 5 years. I do work in an extremely tough job market :(

[mike_c]

9. if teachers do so well, why don't more simply capitalize on that...

...and enter the profession, rather than complaining about how cushy teachers have it? That's the circumstance that gives the lie to the assertion that teachers have it easy, make more money than they're worth, etc. Whenever a profession is identified with easy living and high compensation it becomes a mecca for students who enroll in prep courses in droves, then fall by the academic wayside in great numbers as they are weeded out by coursework requiring significant personal and intellectual growth. For example, in my dept marine biology is a MASSIVELY popular major among freshmen. By senior year, most have changed their major. Many have changed universities. The vast majority do not make it to the next hurdle at all-- graduate school. Yet every year, dozens more enroll in marine bio courses because they see themselves-- correctly or incorrectly-- doing not-too-difficult-work, hanging around on boats, enjoying the sun and sea air, making great money, and probably having their own cable TV nature show before they're 30. We can't beat them off with a stick even when we attempt to make this clear to them.

On the other hand, teacher preparation programs are always hard to fill. The state and federal governments offer all sorts of inducements to attract young people to the profession, yet (at least in Calfornia) there is a chronic shortage of teachers in several disciplines and locations. This just doesn't gibe with the perception that teachers are underworked and over compensated. Nobody detects that prize faster than a job hungry 18 year old!

[etherealtruth]

24. Michigan (where the article is from) Universities ...

... graduate far more teachers than there are positions for.

[mike_c]

26. hmm, not according to the Governor's office....

MICHIGAN DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION

Federal Loan Deferment/Loan Forgiveness
Critical Teacher Shortage Areas
2009-2010

Michigan teacher shortage areas include:
• Autism
• Automobile Technician
• Biology
• Chemistry
• Cognitive Impairment
• Construction Trades
• Cosmetology
• Early Childhood Special Education
• Emotional Impairment
• English as a Second Language
• Foreign Languages (all world languages)
• General Science
• Health Sciences
• Hearing Impaired
• Information Technology
• Learning Disabilities
• Mathematics
• Personal and Culinary Services
• Physical Education for Students with Disabilities
• Physical and Other Health Impairment
• Physics
• Resource Room
• Severe Multiple Impairment
• Speech and Language Impairment
• Visual Impairment

Granted, the list is from last year, but I didn't look very hard.

[etherealtruth]

27. Well the current info seems to indicate something else

"Michigan produces far more teachers than there are actual teaching positions in the state and is known as an exporter of teachers to other states... "

http://scholasticadministrator.typepad.com/thisweekineducation/2011/05/why-your-kids-have-such-terrible-handwriting-and-what-to-do-about-it-by-emily-yoffe-slate-magazine.html

I just attended a parent orientation at the University of Michigan last week ... and that seems to be the mantra. (My daughter is not interested in education, preferring chemistry or engineering .... but I will say the university encouraged the kids in the honors program but admitted not being so enthusiastic for the other kids)

More:

"Michigan State University has pushed its 500 teaching graduates to look out of state. As local jobs have dried up, it started an internship program in Chicago, a four-hour drive from campus. Professors now go with students to the annual campus job fair to make sure they do not hover around the Michigan tables, but walk over to, say, North Carolina, Texas or Virginia. "

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/20/nyregion/20teachers.html

LANSING –With a tough job market in Michigan, many graduates of teacher education programs are crossing state lines to find employment.

"Roughly 5,000 of the 7,500 annual graduates of college education programs leave the state, according to the Michigan Education Association (MEA)."

http://capitalnewsservice.wordpress.com/2011/04/01/earn-teaching-degree-leave-michigan/


edit: spelling and more links

[newfie11]

10. Not in SD, the lowest paid teachers in the country, yes lowest (not Mississippi)

That's why many people in the past left teaching for the corporate world. More money.

[Aerows]

12. We don't respect nurturing in this country

in any way, shape or form. Anything that isn't hyper-masculine/violent is shunned by our cultural "shapers". In developed countries, violence isn't aggrandized.

Here, you have women like Michele Bachmann and Sarah Palin touted as political candidates because they are attractive, and conservative men imagine should be how their wives behave. They hit these men's buttons that women divorce their husbands when they treat them like servants, or abuse their children by calling it "feminism" to demand equality in a relationship.

Many in this nation think we would be in awesome shape if it was run the like Spartans in 300. They forget the part, in the anti-abortion debate, of the hurling of babies over the cliff if they are "misshapen" or "deformed".

Nurturing is a garden, tending it, and we all take part in it from cradle to grave. We give of ourselves in positive ways when it is encouraged, we react when threatened. We protect those we love, and cherish those who also protect those that we love.

Republicans would have you believe that the only person in this nation that matters is a Wall Street banker, or a man dying in a foreign country for reasons unknown.

[bahrbearian]

14. 56% Yes...44% No

[theaocp]

17. Makes sense.

Cut my pay and expect better results. Talk about the beatings continuing until morale improves. I wonder if these clowns "know" how much Congress members make or hedge fund managers, etc? My guess is hell no, but what do I know? I'm just a middle school science teacher who is overpaid and underworked. Open invitation to anyone who would like to try my class for one week and then tell me how fucking overpaid I am.

[WinkyDink]

19. In some districts---such as the one I retired from, before their 30% raises----yes.

Yes, 30%. Actually more. From a top level under $70K to over $90K in about 7 years.

[Initech]

20. The only, truly overpaid profession in this country is that of the CEO.

Anyone else who says that any other profession is overpaid can kiss my ass.

[Zoeisright]

23. BRAVO!

EXACTLY. The pathetic losers who attack other middle and working class folks who EARN their money are suckers for the super rich. That's the biggest con pulled in the history of the world. And too many are falling for it.

[Initech]

29. I hear that!

I'm so sick of these people saying the rich earned their money. They didn't. They can only earn their money through two ways:

1. Inheritance / trust fund

2. Screwing the people who actually do the work.

It's usually the latter. I'm so sick of this bullshit argument that they "earned it". They didn't. We did. They took it from us. :toast:

[etherealtruth]

21. No, not over paid ...

...but, at $63,000+ not underpaid, either.

Bay City is not part of Metro Detroit where salaries are higher. This is not NY City, teacher salaries go a lot further here ($63,000 - 80,000 won't necessarily go far on the coasts, but here it does)

Which is why Michigan universities graduate far more teachers than we have positions for .

[etherealtruth]

22. Sorry duplicate post

:spank: