Cheerleading case stirs up dispute (ADA violation for girl in wheelchair?)

[Omaha Steve]

http://www.omaha.com/article/20110713/NEWS01/707139920#cheerleading-case-stirs-up-dispute

Published Wednesday July 13, 2011

By Julie Anderson

Julia Sullivan wants to be a cheerleader.

Photo: http://www.omaha.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Site=OW&Date=20110713&Category=NEWS01&ArtNo=707139920&Ref=AR&maxw=600&maxh=400
Aurora High junior Julia Sullivan was born without legs or forearms. The district and her family disagree on whether that should have been taken into account at cheerleading tryouts.
SCOTT KINGSLEY/WORLD-HERALD NEWS SERVICE

She likes to dance. She wants to get people excited for games. She has friends on the cheerleading squad.

“I just think it would be fun,” the 16-year-old said.

So she's practiced. Her older sister, a former cheerleader, helped her figure out ways she could cheer from her wheelchair. Julia, who'll be a junior at Aurora High School this fall, was born without legs and with arms that stop short of her elbows.

This spring, for the third time, she tried out to be a cheerleader. For the third time, she didn't made the squad.

Last month, she and her parents, Mike and Carolyn Sullivan, asked the Aurora school board to correct what they see as “scoring errors” in her tryout evaluations this spring, saying she was given no accommodation for her disability.

FULL story at link.

Photo 2: http://www.omaha.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Site=OW&Date=20110713&Category=NEWS01&ArtNo=707139920&Ref=V1&maxw=600&maxh=400
ulia Sullivan is a percussionist in Aurora High School?s marching band and pep band. She also took dance lessons for 10 years.
SCOTT KINGSLEY/WORLD-HERALD NEWS SERVICE

[indurancevile]

1. It must take a lot of guts to do cheerleader tryouts in her situation. More power to her.

[WinkyDink]

2. I don't know. I first posted that she is one among many rejected. But maybe she ought to be

granted a chance here.

I don't know.

[trumad]

3. ok

How many girls with arms and legs didn't make the team.

Say it was the football team and a kid with no arms and legs tried out but didn't make it....is that a lawsuit?

[alphafemale]

4. An athletic squad of any kind has the right to set minimal standards.

If she can do a cartwheel and back flip?

Well she should be considered.

Just as any able bodied girl would have to she has to face and learn from disappointments. She should not be coddled and not allow to grow from those disappoints because of the circumstances of her birth.

If she gets to be on the squad just because she wants to be, then why shouldn't every girl get to be on the squad who wants to be?

A clot of about 75 uncoordinated girls who fall down a lot. Maybe entertaining, but in an entirely different way.

And why stop there? Why not quadriplegic paramedics or blind brain surgeons?

If something really, really wants to do something we should let them, right? To demand that they actually have the ability to perform the task is obviously discrimination.

[cali]

5. oh for pity's sake. Why blind brain surgeons? Because

they would cause harm. What harm could this kid cause by cheering? Why not just make her an honorary cheerleader and let her cheer? It would cause no harm and set a good example.

[trumad]

7. I agree with that and see it quite often...

My kids high school has honorary spots for the disabled in drama, flag teams etc.

This is different though... the parents are suing because she didn't make the cheer leading team.

[KittyWampus]

18. Harm- cheerleading today involves a lot of jumps, climbs, etc that require exquisite training

and skill. Someone gets something wrong and serious physical injury (including spinal chord injury) may result.

This young woman won't be able to do any of the moves. She can't support a pyramid, never mind actually climb to the top of one.

The coach should now be required to choreograph routines around this one young woman? For the same salary?

An "honorary spot" on a team is different than than trying out and then suing for not making a team without an honorary spot.

This young woman should be requesting an honorary spot... for cheering and all teams. Not suing for being rejected.

[Pithlet]

21. It seems to me that is essentially what she was asking for.

That would be the accommodating part. And was denied. I highly doubt she was trying out as a full participating member.

[KittyWampus]

22. If the school doesn't have an honorary spot- there is no way to accommodate her... yet.

[Pithlet]

24. So the parents are right to sue.

The school aren't accommodating them and they're being giant ass hats not doing so to boot. I hope they win.

[KittyWampus]

28. IMO, the parents should approach the school about having honorary positions, not suing because their

daughter was rejected because she obviously can't do the stunts.

[Pithlet]

30. That's what they're doing in the first place.

I think it's idiotic that anyone assumes they thought it would be a regular position in the first place, I'm sorry.

[madmom]

58. We have a local school who has 2 mentally and physically handicapped

cheerleaders. The can do none of the above mentioned feats, yet they can boost the morale of fans and they are very good at getting the crowd motivated. How is this any different?

[hedgehog]

65. I agree. I suspect that this girl is treated with respect by her peers,

and that here presence on the field would bring more cheers than the able bodied squad ever engendered.


On second thought - maybe that's the real reason she was rejected!

[Fire1]

67. Absolutely. n/t

[dionysus]

25. +1 make her an honorary position.

[josiesmom]

59. honorary position

I think the family was offered an honorary cheerleading position as well as another position on the cheerleading team and both were turned down, I don't understand what the family expects of the school.

[dionysus]

61. i don't know. on the one hand, i think, you really do need to be able bodied to be a cheerleader.

on the other hand, i say give her an honorary position, she can go up and down the sidelines and whip people up.

it's a sad situation having a kid with disabilities like that.

[Lance_Boyle]

70. Whatever they expect, I hope they end up paying the school's legal expenses when they lose.

If they were already offered what amounts to far more than reasonable accommodation (an "honorary spot" on the team) and they decided to go to court anyway they ought to be liable for any legal expenses the school incurs defending its windmills from their pathetic jackass-borne lance.

Reasonable accommodation in this situation is "you can cheer from the stands, like all the other students who didn't make the squad." These parents need a lesson in not being total schmucks. I hope they pay dearly for it.

[ncrainbowgrrl]

93. Hi josiesmom!

welcome to DU! :hi:

[adigal]

9. I agree with you. There are somethings each one of us

cannot do. What is she wants to be a firefighter? Will her parents sue over that, too?

Cheerleading is a sport, and the girls are generally very good athletes. I wouldn't have made the squad, because I couldn't do gymnastic stuff. Her parents should focus on helping her find a sport that she loves, that she can actually do, rather than pursuing this action.

[proud2BlibKansan]

13. How many kids with no arms and legs go to that school?

If there aren't any, your argument is silly.

[H2O Man]

254. Children with no heads

should not be required to take tests. An honorary diploma is one thing. But a three piece suit by their parents is yet another.

What is the world coming to?

[pipoman]

6. I grew up and graduated in Aurora

it is a great place to live and has a really great school system. I am torn on this one, I can see it both ways.

[seabeyond]

8. on the one hand, she really wants it, working for it, accomodate. on other hand, other girls really

want it, work for it and are denied.

[Pithlet]

17. Yes, but those denied girls get to go on with their life with their arms and legs.

I say let her cheer.

[KittyWampus]

19. What you're saying is the entire team and the coach must choreograph routines around her.

Edit- I was a high school cheerleader. Things are very different now.

Way more complex routines. Way more gymnastics.

[Pithlet]

23. Yes. That is what I'm saying. n/t

[Aerows]

27. That's not fair

to either the cheerleading coach or the other cheerleaders. Maybe some of those girls want to go to college on a cheerleading scholarship. How are they going to win competitions if they all have to relearn cheerleading to accommodate someone who is physically incapable of participating in some of the higher end routines?

She can yell and cheer just fine as an honorary cheerleader, but to expect her to have physical interaction with the team is quite a stretch, and frankly, her energies would be better spent doing something she can excel at. Suing the school is not the way to go, either.

[Pithlet]

29. That's not fair! Awwww...

Too bad. That's often the rallying cry of those who oppose just about every accommodation. Oh well.

She can be an honorary cheerleader. Duh! That's what she's asking for in the first place. It's obvious in the story. No where does she say she thinks she can perform just like the other cheerleaders. Not getting the indignant reactions.

[Aerows]

31. I don't see

anywhere in the story that she's asking to be an honorary cheerleader, either. I see that she's taken 10 years of dance, and has practiced with her sister.

They are suing based upon the scoring used. Neither one of us can say definitively what her expectations are, since the story didn't make them clear, so naturally both of us are going to have to speculate - not our fault, it's the story writer's fault.

It totally depends, in my opinion, on what her expectations are - wouldn't you agree?

[Pithlet]

32. Oh, you mean she didn't come right out and say it?

Well, then, no wonder! I mean of course that explains the misunderstanding. Then of course, if they do ever finally give in, whether by force of lawsuit or by finally getting a heart, why then they'll have to be explicit and make SURE that everyone knows she's the HONORARY cheerleader, and not a real one like everyone else. Maybe they'll sew it on her shirt in big glittery letters. Or a sign on her wheel chair. Because apparently the fact that she's in one isn't a big enough clue.

[pipoman]

118. You seem to have completely missed the other posters point

that cheer isn't what it was 20 years ago. It is a very competitive sport, especially at the college level. There are competitions for high school cheer squads which have college recruiters in the stands. The performance of the squad can make or destroy the chances of an individual being offered a scholarship. If she is allowed to be on the team, then she must be allowed to compete in the competitions too. Aurora has the equivalent of a glee club, they also, historically, have had an outstanding band program who travel with the athletic teams...there are other options. I believe they will loose this case on the same basis which allows other sports to have minimum physical requirements for participation.

[Pithlet]

125. Yes. Cheerleading has a lot more tumbling than it did 20 years ago.

I get that. I do. But it *still has cheering* That hasn't completely gone away. If cheer leading completely lost the cheer aspect, then it would be no different than gymnastics. There would be nothing to differentiate it. But there is a difference, isn't there? You can tell the difference between cheerleading and gymnastics, particularly at the high school level, because they usually still go to games. Yes, again, I know, all the tumbling and stuff. But I'm sorry if I don't jump on board with the all-the-tumbling-means-they -can-exclude bus. This isn't a rules based sport. It's performance. She can be down there too, performing. There's no rational justification for the exclusion.

[Vanje]

195. Cheering is about SPIRIT

and This girl has it.

[CreekDog]

268. yes, that's how the world works you see --we're all supposed to work together

i'm sorry you see the disabled as a burden to work around.

i encourage you to see the limitation in your mind as something to overcome.

[aikoaiko]

10. I wonder what reasonable accomodations are being suggested and what the scoring rubric consisted?

On the face of it, it seems unlikely that she could do the things I know cheerleaders do, but I'd like to hear more about her side of things.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

34. I see know reason she could not participate as an "honorary" cheer leader for the games

But not be part of the competitive team if they have one.

[RobinA]

11. Oh, For Heaven's Sake

This is insanity. Everybody wants to be something they aren't very good at. You either work really, really hard and GET good at it or you find something else to do. I always wanted to sing well. It ain't going to happen. I moved on. It's part of learning how to live life. There are probably many things this young lady can do well. She'd be better off developing those skills than suing her way onto the cheerleading squad, and her parents should be helping her make those decisions, not encouraging her to do something she will never be able to do.

[liberalhistorian]

187. Bingo.

Thirty years ago I tried out for the basketball team in high school and was rejected, along with about twenty other girls. I was an uncoordinated clumsy oaf with a hearing impairment and a learning disability. Should I have sued the school to MAKE them accommodate me and put the team's chances and games in jeopardy and caused a hardship for the other players and coaches? Should the other twenty who didn't make it have done so also? Ummm, no, I don't think so. We all want to do things that we just aren't gonna be able to do. The sooner we learn to deal with that and accept it, the easier life will be.

[likesmountains 52]

238. Exactly! I wanted to be in the choir but I can't carry a tune so didn't make the cut.

I was in junior high school and found other things that I could do well.
But to this day I still wish I could sing!

[Redford]

12. My daughter is a cheerleader in Texas

where cheerleading is taken rather seriously, much to my chagrin. When the girls try out they go before NCA judges. No coach or school official is allowed to be present during the tryout. The girls are scored on multiple things - tumbling ability is awarded a mere 5 points. The majority of the points are earned based on knowing and performing the cheer/dance, projection, spirit, etc. These girls need to be able to fly or base and I imagine that is not a possibility with Julia.

Julia's "scoring errors" are probably not errors at all. She simply cannot do the cheer as well as others trying out.

Personally, I think they should make her an honorary cheerleader so she can get the uniform and be on the field. I don't think they should have to change the entire scoring system to accommodate one student over others.

[KittyWampus]

20. What happens when there are multiple handicapped young women vying for that one honorary spot?

I think the idea of schools having an 'honorary spot' are great. But what happens when there's more than one student for that spot?

[Vanje]

202. Oh my Gawd! Oh, The Humanity!

If they let this one in, then ALL of the "handicapped" people will want to show their school spirit!
Imagine how awful that would be:
Deaf people signing! as if they were one of us! The nerve!
Blind people, singing! Playing musical instruments!
People in wheelchairs - visible in public!
People with Down's Syndrome !
They used to be hidden away in institutions, so that no one would realize that these people were PEOPLE.

[CreekDog]

271. what happens if multiple disabled people are competing for your job?

the unemployment rate among the severely disabled is near 70%.

what if suddenly the disabled were fully considered, more than ever before?

what if?

apparently you think bad things will happen --to you, or to others.

:eyes:

[WatsonT]

14. If you are not physically capable being a cheerleader then . . . sorry

She isn't being discriminated against because she's handicapped so much as because she cannot do whatever it is those cheerleaders are expected to do.

If they wouldn't let her on the debate team because of her chair, yes that would be discrimination.

If she cannot be president of the latin club because she's handicapped, again discrimination.

But not being allowed to perform an activity that relies heavily on the use of your legs? Sorry, but that is not unfair discrimination.

[CreekDog]

15. what if they have a height requirement?

:shrug:

[WatsonT]

16. If it could be justified as being essential to that teams performance

then that would be fine.

Not a lot people who are below average in height get picked for the basketball team. And those who make it do so in spite of their shortness by being extremely talented.

[CreekDog]

35. what about, for example, when flight attendants are fired because they aren't attractive enough?

:shrug:

[WatsonT]

36. What about when people are fired for the color of their skin?

There's a difference.

If a flight attendant is fired for her appearance she may have a case.

If she's fired because she has a crippling fear of flying that prevents her from doing the job then she does not.

Big difference between being physically unable to do something and being able to do it.

If the girl was not allowed on simply because she's handicapped and they hate people who can't walk: discrimination.

If it's because the use of your legs is required for that "sport": not discrimination.

[CreekDog]

39. but do you understand ADA? say you're an office worker but in your job description is...

"may need to carry or move 25 lb or less boxes infrequently."

but the job is basically just sedentary office work.

ADA says a reasonable accomodation will allow someone to do the job sans the box part --that is reasonable.

or else you could just put in every job description,

"must be able to pee in a urinal and must be able to reach the top shelf of the lounge cabinet without a stool and must be able to box in the middleweight class" so that you assure that tall guys who are thin hired.

ADA, among other laws, deals with these things.

[WatsonT]

40. Were you of the opinion that cheerleaders do not use their legs?

[CreekDog]

42. a school is a public entity and its cheerleading squad shouldn't exclude the disabled

you want to argue that a private team somewhere can hire for attractiveness and so forth --yeah you can probably do that.

but a public school?

there needs to be a way to include the disabled who are exceptional among cheerleaders who are picked on the basis of their exceptionality.

[WatsonT]

43. Being a public school doesn't mean everyone gets to join any club they wish

if you aren't good at math you cannot join the math club.

If you are nonathletic you can't sue to become quarter-back.

Discrimination based on *ability* is allowed.

She can't do the job, so she can't be on the team. It's not that big of a deal.

[CreekDog]

45. that's not what i said, this conversation is over if you're going to put words in my mouth

:thumbsdown:

[WatsonT]

46. Ok, so you're not arguing that she should be allowed in despite being unable to perform

whatever task it is this team performs?

Excellent, so there is no problem here.

Her disability, while not her fault obviously, prevents her from being a cheerleader therefore it is acceptable to not allow her to be a cheerleader.

I'm glad you came around.

[CreekDog]

49. should the disabled be barred from all activities and clubs that are physically oriented?

or not?

in your world, the disabled belong in chess clubs and math contests --if they can wield a pencil or calculator properly.

you spend your time here constantly running down most efforts to include more and more people in more areas of our society.

and you are proud of this.

i'll never come around to agreeing with you.

[WatsonT]

51. You're asking me if people who are phsyically incapable of doing some task

should be prevented from doing that task.

That's a question to take up with your deity of choice, I have no say in that matter.

But should they have a right to join a team dedicated to some task in which they are physically incapable of performing? No.

If she wanted to start a sports team open to anyone and the school shut her down because they though handicapped folks were gross, then yeah obviously that would be a lawsuit.

That is not the case.

There are plenty of sports people can do in a wheelchair.

Ones that involve balancing over someones head and doing an assortment of jumps and flips are not suitable for those without functioning legs.

Does this really need to be explained? At one point this was simply common sense.

[CreekDog]

56. you said, "Does this really need to be explained? At one point this was simply common sense. "

yes, back when women were considered property and nonwhite people tacitly accepted as inferior.

common sense is often just common, not sense.

:eyes:

[WatsonT]

64. Yeah, saying a crippled woman cannot do a back flip is the same as saying

nonwhites/women are inferior.

The.exact.same.thing!

/throwing racism in to a conversation that has nothing to do with race is a tacit admission of defeat.

[CreekDog]

68. no you misread it again

but go ahead and feel persecuted. :eyes:

[WatsonT]

137. You know who else persecuted people?

Yep, the nazis.

Now I'm not saying you're a nazi. I'm just suggesting you may be.

/see how silly this argument is?

[CreekDog]

86. you've spent a lot of time on this thread essentially telling disabled people they can't cheerlead

that's what you've chosen to do.

post after post, you use your precious time here and on earth to argue against a girl in a wheelchair being a cheerleader.

that's what you value.

okay. it's not what i value. but we all can choose.

[WatsonT]

138. I'm saying that disabled people cannot do things that their disability prevents them from doing

do you disagree?

Yes or no will suffice.

[liberalhistorian]

192. Many girls try out for cheerleading squads and are

rejected. Should they ALL be allowed on teams if they didn't meet the criteria? Is it automatically "discrimination" if they don't? What if there were twenty or thirty disabled students wanting to be on the cheerleading squad regardless of ability, should they ALL get to be on it no matter what? Speaking as someone with two disabilities, just because you're disabled in some way does not mean that you should be able to do whatever you want whenever you want regardless of ability. That attitude, in itself, is a bit patronizing.

[Pithlet]

47. No, it doesn't. But it isn't all exclusionary, either.

This isn't a football team, is it? It's cheerleading. They aren't the same. Yeah, there's this big deal about cheerleading being athetic. There are aspects of it that can be. But - and I realize that I risk huffy responses but I don't give a crap because facts are facts - there is a difference between sports that have rules, and activities like cheerleading that don't. Cheerleading's ultimate goal is to cheer. It often does involve elaborate athletic routines, but ultimately if you have a pair of lungs where you can yell out cheers and you can put on a costume with the school colors, and you have team spirit, you can cheer. Those are the basics.

[WatsonT]

48. Cheerleaders have their own competitions

not what I'd call a sport but they have rules and they do compete.


But if cheerleading has no standards and doesn't require any skills why have tryouts at all? Let anyone in regardless of whether they can do their routines.

Get enough people in wheelchairs and I guess they could stack them in to a pyramid shape.

[Pithlet]

52. Yes. They have competitions and tryouts.

They often have very high standards. It makes sense in part because most of the people triyng out are fully ably bodied. That doesn't change what cheerleading is and isn't. What it isn't is a rigid game of rules like football or basketball. So for them to be inclusive for someone who could yell out cheers and have team spirit wouldn't ruin the integrity of what they do the same way it would be for a foot ball team to let someone play. It isn't the same thing at all, for all those people who are making that argument. And "get enough people..." Yeah, because schools are just full of people in wheelchairs! So again, dumb argument. They aren't suddenly going to be overrun with all the handicaps ruining the fun.

[WatsonT]

54. At the root of it football is a game too

it doesn't really matter. So why not let everyone on the field to have fun?

That's fine for kids, but at some point it gets silly and takes the fun away from people who really want to compete and be serious.

What makes football so special that you give them a pass but not cheerleading?

[Pithlet]

55. It isn't the same thing. No, not everyone can play football.

But it's a ridiculous argument to say that becuase you can't allow everyone to play football that you can then make everything exclusionary is nonsense. There is absolutely no reasonable argument that says that people in wheelchairs can't go out on a field in a uniform with school colors and cheer. It's bullshit. THey wanted to keep their little cheerleading club exclusionary and didn't want her wheelchair cooties. That's what it came down to.

[WatsonT]

66. You are aware that cheerleaders don't simply stand around yelling?

Right?

[Pithlet]

76. Cheering is for teem spirit. So they added back flips. Who cares?

If this were a gymnastics team, my position would be completely different. But it isn't, so it's not. If someone wants to participate because they're all into the tumbling and that's the most important aspect to them, and they don't want to be annoyed and distracted by the potential teammate in a wheelchair, then there's this activity called gymnastics. It's like cheerleading, but without the cheers. It's ONLY the tumbling, see? Great, huh?

[hack89]

104. It is a competitive sport

They compete at cheer leading tournaments besides cheering at HS games - girls win scholarships to cheer at college. It is basically a gymnastics team - our HS cheerleaders are required to take dance and gymnastic lessons. They also have conditioning drill just as rigorous as any other sport. Your view of cheer leading is outdated.

[Pithlet]

105. I fully understand what cheerleading is. No, it isn't outdated.

It's a performance sport. It doesn't have rules, with periods and and end, with winners and losers. like basketball and football. This is a high school cheerleading right? That means they go to games to cheer. So tell me why she can't also cheer her team on? Go ahead. Give me a reason. Sorry. There is no rationalization to exclude anyone other than for exclusionary sake. Some may require their team members to take dance lessons and gymnastics for the tumbling. But there's no law that requires it, is there? That would be the accommodation part, see? Yeah, about that gymnastics thing. See, it's cheerleading. NOT gymnastics. If someone wants to do gymnastics, they can do that. If that's what she wanted, and was upset she couldn't do that, well, that would be a different matter. But she doesn't want to be on a gymnastics team. She wants to be on a cheerleading team.

[hack89]

106. But how will she do the cheer leading routines?

seeing how they require a high level of gymnastic skills? If you want to give her a set of pom poms and let cheer on her team - well ok. But how do you think she will feel when she spends 90% of the time watching her team mates do things that are impossible for her to do?

And she did want to be on a team that requires a high degree of skill in gymnastic - your distinction is meaningless.

[Pithlet]

107. How do I think she'll feel? How would I know? All I know is she wants to be on the team.

How will she do the cheer leading routines? As well as she can. Yes, much of cheerleading has a lot of complicated, difficult and highly athletic tumbling in it. But that doesn't mean that's the only thing that defines cheerleading. Take away the cheer and the team spirit aspect of it? Then it's just gymnastics. If all a participant cares about is the tumbling, then they might as well just do gymnastics. ETA the high school's team requires that precision. Again, is there some state law? No? Again, there's that little thing called accommodation. There was no reason to exclude her. My distinction isn't meaningless in the least.

[hack89]

110. So do you add a position

or bump another girl off the team? If you add a position for her, how do you justify denying any girl a position on the team?

What wrong with the idea that you have X number of positions on the team and the best X girls make the team? Like every other sport is done?

[Pithlet]

111. Well I'll tell you, I sleep just fine at night.

And here's why. I don't have a problem with the concept of accommodation. Yes, there are try outs for a limited number of girls. Because the vast number of them are able bodied. No, I don't have a problem with try outs for able bodied girls where they're rejected, and another standard for one who isn't able bodied. No, obviously this can't work out for all sports. But generally, sports fields are pretty big. There's plenty of room and choreographers can be very creative. I'm sorry, but nobody has convinced me why she can't be accommodated. For another thing I don't know why it even necessarily means anyone has to be bumped. It very well could mean she's an additional member of the team. Why not?

[pipoman]

123. I would add 'girls AND boys' win scholarships

my step son, who otherwise would have had to attend a 4 year college on grants and student loans won a cheer scholarship.

[pipoman]

122. See, this is what you are not understanding..

cheer squads now days ARE gymnastics teams. Many smaller schools, like Aurora High School, don't have gymnastics teams, nor do most other schools in their class in the state of Nebraska...this IS the gymnastics.

[Pithlet]

124. Gee. When did gymnastics fall off the face of the earth? I wasn't aware.

It's true that many if not most schools don't have gymnastics teams. I know that most times they have to go outside of school to do that. My sister's thing was gymnastics, so I'm very familiar. But that doesn't change the fact that the two aren't the same thing. Gymnastics is only tumbling. Cheerleading, at least at the high school level, usually involves going to games and performing at the sidelines. With cheers. Hence the cheer part. And it still doesn't rationalize excluding her. So she can't to the tumbling part. She can still cheer.

[Zywiec]

127. Gymnastics is only tumbling?

Wow, since you claimed to being "very familiar" with that, it's obvious you know even less about cheerleading.

[Pithlet]

128. Well, then

Why don't you offer up your knowledge? :shrug:

[Zywiec]

134. That's okay, I'll let you pretend to be the gymnastics and cheerleading expert. n/t

[Pithlet]

135. Well, alrighty then. n/t

[pipoman]

129. Right..

Cheer LEADERS, They LEAD the cheers which the fans and spirit section follow. As for gymnastics outside of public schools, they often cost thousands of dollars and are usually located in larger cities. Aurora is a very rural area. The nearest city of any size is Lincoln, 70 miles away. You're right, she can cheer, from the spirit section like everyone else who didn't make the squad.

[Pithlet]

131. They lead cheers. Exactly.

She could do it from the stands. Or she could do it with the cheer squad down on the sidelines. I see no good reason why she couldn't do the latter. That's the whole point. Everyone else who didn't make the squad is able bodied. There is a difference. Their lives are very different, not full of exclusion, see?

[WatsonT]

136. Your entire argument seems to rest on your opinion that cheerleading is stupid and pointless

and so it shouldn't matter whereas other sports have value.

You realize that is a personal opinion that not everyone will share?

[Pithlet]

145. I don't know how you read that from anything I've said.

Unless you think team spirit is pointless. That's your opinion I guess. If pointless means people in wheelchairs cna do it too, again, your interpretaion. Not mine.

[WatsonT]

146. You've said repeatedly that real sports like football should be free

to discriminate based on ability.

Whereas cheerleading doesn't really matter so why not let her in?

Yes, you have have said this. It's all there for everyone to read so don't try to deny it.

/This isn't a football team, is it? It's cheerleading. They aren't the same. Yeah, there's this big deal about cheerleading being athetic. There are aspects of it that can be. But - and I realize that I risk huffy responses but I don't give a crap because facts are facts - there is a difference between sports that have rules, and activities like cheerleading that don't. Cheerleading's ultimate goal is to cheer. It often does involve elaborate athletic routines, but ultimately if you have a pair of lungs where you can yell out cheers and you can put on a costume with the school colors, and you have team spirit, you can cheer. Those are the basics.

//That doesn't change what cheerleading is and isn't. What it isn't is a rigid game of rules like football or basketball. So for them to be inclusive for someone who could yell out cheers and have team spirit wouldn't ruin the integrity of what they do the same way it would be for a foot ball team to let someone play.

///If this were a gymnastics team, my position would be completely different. But it isn't, so it's not. If someone wants to participate because they're all into the tumbling and that's the most important aspect to them, and they don't want to be annoyed and distracted by the potential teammate in a wheelchair, then there's this activity called gymnastics. It's like cheerleading, but without the cheers. It's ONLY the tumbling, see? Great, huh?

[Pithlet]

147. Point out where I said they were real sports.

Where as cheerleading wasn't. I didn't You're the one who's making that distinction that sports that people in wheelchairs can't do are the real ones, it seems. Not I.

[WatsonT]

148. So are you now saying that cheerleading is a real sport

with physical demands that not everyone can meet?

[Pithlet]

149. I've never said otherwise.

Are you saying that people in wheelchairs can't ever participate in sports?

[WatsonT]

150. Ok, good we've established that cheerleading is in fact a sport

and does have physical demands that not everyone can meet.

So next question: can you admit that a physical handicap can limit ones physical abilities.

[Pithlet]

151. No, because it's pointless to establish things that don't need establishing.

The only thing that needs establishing is that people with physical handicaps don't need to always be relegated to the handicapped only world. In fact, there should be a good reason, a damn good reason to exclude them to that world. They're there enough. Yes, there are barriers. Of course there are. You really think that needs to be established? No. The only argument is that apparently the fact that tumbling exists in cheer is a barrier. Tumbling a barrier? I'm sorry, but anyone who thinks so doesn't understand the concept of barriers. If they want to exclude because she can't tumble? She could do just about every other aspect of cheer and entertain the crowds, but OMGZ she can't tumble! BARRIER!!!! Go back to the stands where you belong, wheelchair girl. Nonsense. Weakass excuse for a barrier. Shameful, in fact.

[WatsonT]

154. So you're saying; no, physical handicaps do not limit ones physical abilities

on that I, and all doctors on earth, will have to disagree with you.

Physical disabilities by definition reduce your physical abilities.

[Pithlet]

157. Hmmm. Interesting interpretation there.

Not sure how you get that I said physical handicaps don't limit ones phyiscal abilities. Because that's not at all what I said. :silly: Care to address any of my points at all?

[WatsonT]

160. Ok so now you believe being handicapped limits ones physical abilities

And that this girl is handicapped. And trying out for a sport that requires a certain level of physical abilities.

Ok, now this may get painful but put all those facts together.

[WatsonT]

158. You seem to be thinking about this from a personal, rather than logical perspective

Perhaps you are in a wheelchair and were picked on as a child.

I don't know about that. But either way you are letting your emotional attachment cloud your reasoning. If she can't do the routine she can't be on the team. I suppose they could make her an honorary cheerleader and have her sit on the sidelines in uniform doing nothing, of course that would be extremely patronizing and it would mean they'd have to let everyone on who couldn't do the job but wanted in.

Having a handicap is just that: a handicap. It means you can't do some things. Tough. Life is really unfair.

If you have severe mental disabilities you can't sue to make yourself valedictorian. You just do the best you can with what you've got.

If you're short and lack talent you can't sue to make yourself a starting basketball player.

If you can't use your legs you stay away from sports that require the use of your legs.

[Pithlet]

159. But what makes you think she can't do routines?

What is your evidence of that? She can't tumble. But that doesn't mean she can't do routines. Really. Give your evidence that she can't go down on the field and do cheering routines that pep the crowd? Go ahead. I'll wait.

[WatsonT]

161. The team said she can't

I'll assume they are more aware of what it requires to be a cheerleader on that team than either you or I?

Also what evidence do you have that she could? Since you're arguing that she can do everything on the team that anyone else could, what's your proof?

Go ahead, I'll wait.

[Pithlet]

162. Oh. The team said she can't?

Stellar evidence, there! They have some sort of magical field with a force that doesn't allow wheelchairs, too, we're to assume?

[WatsonT]

166. From the article:

"The sponsor of the program, he wrote, asked administrators before last spring's tryouts what accommodations should be made for Julia. The sponsor was told Julia was to be judged in the same way as other participants. Three tryout judges were given the same instructions. Seventy-five percent of a participant's score was based on physical activities. Twenty-five percent was based on teacher evaluation.

In the performance portion, Julia received her lowest score in the jumps/kicks category and her highest marks in the communication skills and enthusiasm/spirit categories."


And . . .

"Aurora Superintendent Damon McDonald said school administrators and the school board reviewed the district's policies and criteria for the cheerleading program with its legal counsel. They also sought a second legal opinion.

“In both cases, they came back and said the Aurora Public Schools policies and guidelines are appropriate and legitimate for all students,” said McDonald, who took the job July 1.

The school district, he said, does not believe that there was a violation of the disabilities act and that making accommodations “would fundamentally alter the cheerleading program in the Aurora Public Schools.”"

So the standards were deemed fair and she was held to them in the exact same way as anyone else.

Discrimination in your view therefore equals treating the handicapped as equals.

[Pithlet]

167. Yeah, I read the article.

It basically laid out how the school were being asses. I already know that.

[WatsonT]

170. Well it seems you have your opinion

And the law and majority of responders have another.

Perhaps you're right. Perhaps a lack of legs is no impediment to being able to do flips and dance routines.

But I'm going to go with my common sense on this one and say that something which requires legs probably in fact requires legs.

[Pithlet]

172. I wouldn't say it's the majority.

A couple of very verbose posters don't make a majority. There are a lot of people who don't want to go out of their way to accomodate and wish physically disabled people would just disappear. Sadly, that is true, which is why I really don't blame the parents for their respons. But there were a lot of people in this thread who stood up for them, too.

[Zywiec]

176. Maybe it is the lack of even one 'rec' that would show most people

here don't support a lawsuit like this?

:shrug:

[Pithlet]

177. Ha!

Yeah. That's how you can measure support. Totally accurate.

Yeah, you just tell yourself that recs matter if it makes you feel better about your position.

[WatsonT]

190. A handful of very vocal people are supporting this lawsuit

very many more are opposing it.

"There are a lot of people who don't want to go out of their way to accomodate and wish physically disabled people would just disappear."

Ooo like in to camps? You know who else sent the disabled to camps? Hitler! Yep so everyone who disagrees with you is Hitler!

/not particularly subtle. Sign of a lost argument.

[Pithlet]

207. Again.

The only people who worry about whether or not the majority share in their opinion or those who aren't very secure in it.

[WatsonT]

223. Well in this case my majority includes legal experts

whereas yours includes yourself and the mother of this girl.

I think the balance of evidence falls on my side.

[Pithlet]

252. There were legal experts in the article on their side as well.

More than one, in fact.

[Pithlet]

164. Oh, and there's a name for that kind of logic.

It's called circular.

[WatsonT]

168. As opposed to:

She says she can do it therefore she can and the team must be lying to say she can't because she said she could therefore she can . . .

[Pithlet]

169. I don't know. Gee. Which side to take...

The one that says she can't go down on the side lines and cheer, but won't explain exactly why, beyond the stupid tumbling crap excuse? Or the person who says she can go down on the sidelines and cheer? I know which one I'm picking and it's not that hard.

[WatsonT]

171. Again, read the article

they explained exactly why.

She failed the physical tests.

You may feel good to say everyone can do everything regardless of actual abilities but that does little to change reality.

Have you noticed that the NFL hires very few physically frail paraplegics? Perhaps that should be your next crusade.

[Pithlet]

173. Yes, she failed the physical tests that the abled bodied girls have to take.

They made no effort whatsoever to accomodate her. Oh, and you're losing the argument, so time to start flailing and compare the situation to the NFL. Yeah...

[WatsonT]

189. It's not like this is the debate team and they demanded she do a back flip

She failed the physical tests that a physical activity requires.

What accommodation should be made for someone who cannot do what is required of her?

[Pithlet]

191. It really isn't that hard.

Hey! She can't kick! So we won't judge her on that! See? Eesy peasy! Then she can go on the field? And cheeeeeeeer! Wooooooo!!!

OMG I have to go take a nap now. Ma brain is tired..... Whoooo!!!

Oh wait. No it's not. Because that was easy!

[WatsonT]

193. So now it's not just the test to get in

but what would be required of her afterwards as well. The requirements for entry thus are fair as they reflect the requirements of being a member.


You tacitly admitted she can't do the job and they were right not to accept her.

[Pithlet]

194. I admited it? Where?

OH wait. No I didn't. I think I'm in the world where they took that requirement out and let her cheer! Yep. I like my world better. My world. She's cheering. It's the inclusive world. And it wasn't so hard because all they had to do was not judge her on the kicks! Your world. The world she's not, and she's supposed to just live with it. Learn her lesson. You're in a wheel chair, kid. Get used to it. Boo!

[WatsonT]

196. So they should fundamentally alter the nature of the sport to accommodate her?

Is that what you're now arguing?

[Pithlet]

197. in what world are the fundamentally altering it?

is there a law where the other girls can't cheer exactly the way they would have otherwise? There's a law that says if there's a girl in a wheel chair who's cheering, you're not allowed to anymore? Her wheelchair alters the time/space continuum? What am I missing?

[WatsonT]

199. In that for everyone else the sport is not sitting in a chair yelling

so they would have to create a novel role just for her.

You really aren't getting this are you?

At first I thought you were simply pedantic and silly. But you really don't understand why you are wrong on this do you?

[Pithlet]

200. Oh, man.

Yes. She'd be cheering from her chair. Everything she does in life will be from a wheelchair. That's the reason to exclude her? She's not really doing it fully if she's doing it from the chair? Well, there you go. You just highlighted your prejudice exactly. Congratulations. I'm the one not getting it. Right.

[WatsonT]

203. Ok, lets try a different tack

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3mPxPVrPE4&feature=related

Watch that video very closely.

Ok, now tell me which girl could be replaced by someone in a wheel chair without affecting their routine.

[Pithlet]

205. As I've already said multiple times in this thread

I know what a cheer competition is. She wants to be on her high school cheerleading team. Nowhere in that article does it say she wants to compete in competitions. She says nothing about that. She specifically says she wants to cheer teams on. She can do that from a chair. She says she thinks that would be fun. She specifically mentions fun. Says nothing about competition. I think she's fully aware she can't do the things in that video, don't you? She doesn't seem at all like an idiot to me. They can bloody well let her on the team and do that. That would be accommodating her. Doing absolutely nothing and forcing her to endure three tryouts where they judge her on her kicks when she has no legs (what kind of sadists are these people) is the height of asshatery.

[Zywiec]

208. She specifically says she wants to cheer teams on.

Is it only the cheerleaders cheering the team on?

What about the parents, teachers, other students. Are they sitting in the stands silent?

Why do you have to be on a team to cheer teams on?

:shrug:

[Pithlet]

212. Why? Because she wants to.

And it isn't that hard to accommodate her, and there's no real reason not to. All those parents teachers and other students are cheering as well. But not as cheerleaders. She wants to be one. There's no real valid, rational reason to exclude her. They could have altered the tryouts or simply let her join without tumbling. Sorry.

[WatsonT]

216. I want to be on the chess team

but I'm not so great at chess.

Couldn't we play a slightly different game that caters to my abilities instead, but still call it chess?

I mean I guess I could just play checkers or whatever on my own and be content with that. But then I wouldn't be on the official chess team. So they should have to change to accommodate my desires even though I offer them nothing.

[Pithlet]

217. You can pull up every acticity under the sun that isn't the same

in your quest to justify excluding her. Keep trying. But I won't buy it. She can cheer from a chair. There's no reason she can't.

[WatsonT]

222. Pithy, we've been over this

She cannot do this from her chair: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3mPxPVrPE4&feature=related


I even forced you to begrudgingly admit that.

She can cheer on her team in the stands.

[Pithlet]

229. No you haven't.

You haven't shown me the mysterious force field that prevents her from the field. Nor have you shown me the phyiscal laws of nature that prevent her donning a uniform. Show me where I admitted it. I haven't. Because quite simply, you are wrong.

[WatsonT]

236. Now you're just being silly

force fields?

Come on pithy, you can do better than that.

Just go back to insinuating everyone who disagrees is a nazi.

[Pithlet]

250. I may be being silly

But you still haven't explained why she can't cheer. See, you need an actual reason besides she's in a wheelchair. The mere fact she's in one isn't enough. THere, I spelled it out for you.

[WatsonT]

213. Good point

[WatsonT]

210. So then she cannot perform the skills normally required of a cheerleader

story over.

[Pithlet]

215. Then your argument is no one should ever accomodate ever.

And that's wrong.

[WatsonT]

221. "And that's wrong"

Correct, your assessment of my argument is wrong.

If she wanted to be on the debate team and was good at it, but was in a wheel chair then she should be free to join. If they had a rule saying you must stand at a podium to debate and they changed it so she could instead sit in her chair while debating that would be reasonable accommodation. The rule isn't essential to the very nature of the activity and there's no reason you would need to be able to stand to argue a point effectively.

Your belief that it's either allow everyone do anything regardless of their abilities or banish all handicapped to death camps is quite false. There is a middle ground. It's called 'reasonable accommodation' and the law is quite clear on this (and has ruled against the girl in question).

[Pithlet]

But that's not my belief.

Your belief that it's either allow everyone do anything regardless of their abilities or banish all handicapped to death camps is quite false. There is a middle ground. It's called 'reasonable accommodation' and the law is quite clear on this (and has ruled against the girl in question).

And you've yet to make the argument that altering or bypassing the tryouts and letting her cheer from her chair is an unreasonable accommodation. Why is it so unreasonable? I've yet to hear a good argument. So far, all arguments completely unconvincing.

[WatsonT]

230. Because letting her skip the tryouts means she would be able to join the team but unable

to perform with the others.

You've heard many good arguments. Your own silliness prevents you from understanding them.

When the entire world is against you may be the sole voice of sanity.

But more often you're a nut that makes everyone else uncomfortable.

[Pithlet]

232. She can't do backflips, but she can still perform.

People perform in wheelchairs all the time. Your prejudice is your problem.

[WatsonT]

235. She can't do the routine, she can't perform

Simple enough.

[Vanje]

239. Change the fucking routine.

nt

[WatsonT]

243. Then it is no longer the same sport

and does not fit with the ADA requirements.

Next!

[Vanje]

249. Cheerleading is not a sport.

[WatsonT]

251. Neither is football!

Because I repeated that non sequitor enough it became true!

[pipoman]

321. Tell it to the thousands of people who start training

when they are 5. The ones who spend years of their lives practicing. The ones who train year round and earn full ride scholarships to colleges and universities. Your view isn't reality. You are stuck in your late 1960's antiquated experience.

[CreekDog]

329. Hey Watson, all these posts saying what disabled CAN'T and SHOULDN'T do --they are your legacy

and a pretty terrible one too. including the use of "crippled" to describe a person.

wow.

[Pithlet]

242. Again. Why can't she?

Be specific.

Me, I've seen some people make some damn good moves in wheelchairs. They can be quite entertaining. They can can be quite loud as well. I have no doubt she could do quite well cheerleading. So? Why couldn't she do it? No. She couldn't do backflips. But that isn't the be all and end all of cheerleading. IF it were, it would undistinguishable from gymnastics. But it is. A port of it is sideline cheering. And no one so far has given me a reason why she can't do that. You included.

[Aerows]

270. She can't cheer exactly the way the other girls can

because she's physically incapable of doing the routines. That's the crux of the matter. She's welcome to cheer her heart out like everyone else in the stands, she's just not able to physically participate the way the other girls are able to participate.

[Pithlet]

277. People cheering in the stands aren't cheerleaders, are they?

Just like people standing on the sidelines aren't really running in the race. Going to tell the people in the Boston Marathon that they really shouldn't be in the race because they're in their chairs and not on their feet? Because that's not running?

[Aerows]

279. In the Boston Marathon

I wasn't aware that they were allowed to use motorized chairs, because in the case of the Boston Marathon runners from wheelchairs, they are using their arms in place of their legs.

[Pithlet]

280. And she would be cheering. Just not doing backflips and stuff.

Letting her in would not be the equivilent of letting the Boston Marathon runners use motorized wheelchairs :eyes: Honestly.

[Aerows]

282. You brought up the analogy

I just took it to it's natural conclusion. I can't help it if your own analogy fails your position.

[Pithlet]

283. Your analogy was in no way a natural conclusion n/t

[Aerows]

284. YOU brought up the Boston Marathon

in order to demonstrate that people with disabilities can compete successfully in an endurance contest. By using their arms, they are. By using a motorized wheelchair, they aren't taking part in an endurance contest.

I believe that you don't think cheer leading is a sport, but it is, and people can get scholarships from doing it, just like football and baseball. Because of that, such sports have strict requirements for their teams - so they can win.

[Pithlet]

288. Where do you get that I don't think it's a sport?

I just think that she can participate in it too. She'd just be doing it from her chair. That's all. I don't get why that rankles some. So she wouldn't be doing back flips. So? She's still physically participating in a sport. Just in a different way. That's where my Boston Marathon analogy comes in. They're participating too. Just in a different way.

[Pithlet]

289. Where do you get that I don't think it's a sport?

I just think that she can participate in it too. She'd just be doing it from her chair. That's all. I don't get why that rankles some. So she wouldn't be doing back flips. So? She's still physically participating in a sport. Just in a different way. That's where my Boston Marathon analogy comes in. They're participating too. Just in a different way.

[alphafemale]

328. lol...I just had a vision of a Wal*Mart shopper scooter brigade in the Boston Marathon.

complete with a pit crew ambling casually alongside them. :rofl:

Thanks for bringing some levity to the thread.

[Vanje]

209. "Sport" . Cheerleading is NOT a sport

Its a social activity.

[Vanje]

206. So...

Change the fucking routine.

[WatsonT]

211. Fundamentally altering the "activity" is not a reasonable accommodation

as lined out by the ADA.

Football could be reworked to not require arms.

Then it would be soccer. Could a boy with no arms demand the sport be altered such just so he can live out his dream of playing "football"?

/or maybe he could just do soccer instead. Hmm, what a concept.

[Vanje]

218. Cheerleading is NOT a sport.

Change the routine. Accommodate the spirit.

[WatsonT]

227. Debate isn't a sport either

does that mean they have to let in people who are not capable of debating?

Where is this notion coming from that if you don't define it as a sport that means it is silly and pointless and thus everyone should be able to join.

[Pithlet]

219. It's not reasonable according to you.

Also, because you make the assertion that it's fundamentally altering it doesn't make it true. There's no reason the rest of the cheerleaders can't backflip to their little hearts' content.

[WatsonT]

225. To me, to the team, to the school, to the courts to the ADA it is not reasonable

to you and the girl and her mom it is.

[Pithlet]

228. SHow me where the courts and ADA say it is.

That's obviously the team and the school's enterpretation of it. But do you have case law cited?

[WatsonT]

234. The courts have refused to take up her case

not a good sign eh?

Also there's that "reasonable accommodation" thing that I keep mentioning that you keep failing to read.

[Pithlet]

240. Link?

I have no idea what you're talking about. What court case was rejected?

Just because you say it's unreasonable doesn't make it so. What is so unreasonable about it. Make your case that it's unreasonable. Altering the forcefield that allows wheelchairs on the field is difficult? What?

[Name removed]

241. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Pithlet]

244. There was nothing in the article about a court case rejected nt.

[Pithlet]

220. It's not reasonable according to you.

Also, because you make the assertion that it's fundamentally altering it doesn't make it true. There's no reason the rest of the cheerleaders can't backflip to their little hearts' content.

[Kingofalldems]

71. Familiar posts.

[pipoman]

119. You've obviously never been to a modern day cheer competition..

ALL of the competitors are gymnasts who are generally as physically fit, or more so, than the team participants they are cheering. Many of the participants start when they are very, very young. Cheer is very much a competitive sport these days, like it or not.

[Pithlet]

121. And like it or not, it's based on CHEERING. For HIGH SCHOOL. I read the article.

It's not some outfit that isn't affiliated with any school that only does competitions. If it were, my opinion would be different. If were a gymnastics only team, my opinion would be different. If it were profiessional or college level, my opinion would be different. But none of those things are true. It's a high school team. For *cheering*. Blah blah they do gymnastics now cakes. I'm fully aware. I leave my house now and then and interact with the world. I've actually been to games in the last decade. I don't care.

[pipoman]

126. And, as I said above,

there is accommodation for everyone who doesn't make the squad. It is called a spirit section in the stands. They sit, stand, cheer, and even use pom poms. And again, it is every bit as important to the participants who are trying to win scholarships as any other sport. The fact you don't care about the other participants is telling.

[Pithlet]

130. Oh, now it's mudslinging!

I don't care about the other participants? Well, you don't care about people in wheelchairs! So there! Pththththththt!

[pipoman]

132. I was merely quoting you...

"I don't care."

[Pithlet]

133. Now it's out of context time... n/t

[Vanje]

214. Isn't that nice.

When I went to a racially diverse high school, back in the late 1960's, the Cheerleaders were all white.
Some things SHOULD change.

[pipoman]

319. Obviously you haven't been to a modern day cheer

competition either...the squads are very ethnically diverse. To imply things haven't changed is pure shit. Maybe you should get your old ass up and go see what this is about today instead of sitting in your rocker imagining it as it was back when you were in school....

Oh, and guess what! There are ethnically diverse baseball and basketball teams these days too, you'd be shocked at how things have changed.

[Vanje]

327. No, I hav'nt

but I saw it on TV , and I think I know what its about:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORwZniYnYOc

[Drahthaardogs]

95. The ADA still says you HAVE to be able to perform the basic tasks of the job...

In your example, if you have to move boxes every now and then, maybe you get a lift or a person to help, no big deal. However, if your job IS moving boxes all day, and you CAN'T do it, it is NOT discrimination. Reasonable accommodation in this case would mean they made sure her wheelchair had access to the field. She cannot tumble, jump, flip, she cannot even hold up a letter on a piece of paper as in "Give me an A". She can't do the job. That is life, She needs to focus on something more positive. This is not discrimination or a school failing to provide. This is a person with completely unfounded expectations.

[liberalhistorian]

188. The ADA also states that the individual

must be basically capable of doing the job in the first place. If you're in a wheelchair and want to be a policeman or firefighter, the ADA will not cover you, nor should it. If you're blind and want to be an air traffic controller, the ADA will not and should not cover you. Etc.

[CreekDog]

274. see, you just support whatever metric can exclude people

oh maybe you give lip service to civil rights laws, although I've never seen you support any new ones.

in these arguments, you're one of the gatekeepers, keeping those you can't envision as being a part of something, keeping them out!

keep different people out of stuff --it messes it all up, right?

[loyalsister]

88. Bingo

Usually, it is the nature of a performance sport to incorporate different capabilities of participants.
Is it not possible that she has some strengths that are simply different from what is traditional?
I would think there could be some value in being creative enough to create original cheers that include this woman.
There is a dance company called "Dancing Wheels" that is run by and includes people who use wheelchairs.
"honorary cheerleader" = tokenism. I hope that if someone made\makes that offer, she rejects it.

[Pithlet]

90. I think that's the crux of the matter right there.

I think some don't want to acknowledge or admit it's a performance sport, which is ridiculous. I think the whole honorary thing is a way some can rationalize a way to include her anyway and still maintain their illusion about the sport. I agree with you, though. She doesn't have to be an "honorary" cheerleader. It's nonsense.

[loyalsister]

92. There are possibilities, too

Incorporating a wheelchair into dance can be very cool. Performance sport, is supposed to have an artistic element. Why not take advantage of different capabilities and features of participants. This shouldn't be so hard.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06lIciRieGM&NR=1

[Pithlet]

101. I know. I don't get this argument that she has unreasonable expectations.

And that it's no different then suing to be on the NBA :eyes:

[loyalsister]

115. I think one person upthread used to word "outdated"

indeed

[CreekDog]

113. That's what I was getting at

and i don't know if she's the best choice, but among the people with different abilities, some are going to be exceptional, yes, for a cheerleading squad. The powers that be should be thinking long term of including more diversity in all forms on public school teams.

besides, let's think about this:

these are public schools, where children now are learning things that will inform the rest of their lives -including when they are running our nation or even the world.

if we teach them now that all people, regardless of appearance or physical characteristics have value in all facets of society and that our job together is to figure out how NOT TO WASTE those abilities --they will run a better, more inclusive and more successful society than we are running.

some of the folks in this thread are content with a world that's basically like it is, where lots of people still stand outside a closed door.

i think we can do better and i also know that if children now are taught that it's right to include the disabled in all that they do --these children will figure out how to do it, maybe not tomorrow but at some point they will figure it out.

i don't want my words to be remembered for delaying that moment even one day.


:hi:

[loyalsister]

114. Right on

:thumbsup:
I think that many people come around if given some time. But, discrimination and fear of what is unfamiliar is still rampant. I once read that giving up a stereotype means admitting to being retroactively wrong - often for a very long time.
Young people have an opportunity in these kinds of situations to head off forming those stereotypes in the first place. Everyone wins.

[Vanje]

245. Yes! nt

[wickerwoman]

155. +1. This is a lost opportunity for the school

to do something really creative and unique which might actually help them win competitions and scholarships for the other cheerleaders. Too bad they are too blinded by prejudice to see how this girl might be an asset to the team.

A lot of disability is environmental rather than physical. There is a design solution that would allow this girl to participate and contribute positively to the team and which would ultimately benefit everyone. But it's so much easier to just say "tough luck" to this girl or to pretend that our failure to provide an appropriate environment for her to succeed in is "just life"- as if a girl with no legs or arms needs rejection from the cheer squad to toughen her up or teach her that life can be disappointing.

[loyalsister]

175. For sure

She could probably teach others about "toughening up"
People complain about lawsuits. The only "right" it really gave people with disabilities is standing to bring lawsuits. It is not a self enforcing law. In the end, people don't have to worry about discriminating against a person with a disability until someone complains about it. Environmental accommodations are usually not as hard as people think at first glance.
This girl has standing to sue to fight discrimination under ADA when the spirit of inclusion and independence are violated. The school knew it before this dust up.
Kudos to her for standing up for her rights!

[Vanje]

247. Yes! nt

[alphafemale]

96. Cheerleading is a very athletic activity.

I've heard there are more injuries in it than any other activity.

I don't think kids who happen to be in a wheelchair should be protected from disappointment anymore than any other kid.

That's so patronizing it's disgusting.

[KamaAina]

156. So is running a marathon.

The wheelchair division in major marathons like Boston and New York leaves before the runners. Why? Because the wheelchair athletes are faster.

[alphafemale]

311. Atheletes in wheelchairs are absolutely capable of competing in a marathon.

As I recall a marathon generally has no tryouts to begin with. And it's certainly not a team.

This girl can not meet the requirements of being on the squad.

Why should an exception be made for her as opposed to a kid who's merely tragically uncoordinated?

Why shouldn't a kid who couldn't catch a ball tossed underhand from ten feet away in a laundry basket be allowed to play outfield?

[KamaAina]

313. Because he was already playing first base

:P

but seriesly, folks, this ain't the World Series. The requirements themselves are based on the inaccurate, ableist assumption that all prospective cheerleaders will be walking.

[WatsonT]

204. They aren't being protected from disappointment

no one said "aww well you won't do very well and that might hurt your feelings so you can't join".

She's not allowed on because she *can't* do the routine.

Creating a spot for her where she sits there while everyone else does normal cheerleading things is patronizing as well.

[alphafemale]

312. I don't know why anyone would want to be a "mascot" nt

[Pithlet]

323. Yeah, like there's nothing patronizing about telling someone what they should want. n/t

[Aerows]

26. Honorary cheerleader

The school should make her an honorary cheerleader. If she wants to be a "full" member of the team, then I have absolutely no idea how she thinks she can do it with no arms and legs. I would have liked to play on the basketball team, but I'm 5'3" and frankly, I suck at team sports. Even if by some miracle I managed to make it on the team, I would have been a bench warmer.

It isn't discrimination - it's practicality. All she CAN be is an "honorary" cheerleader. Does she expect the entire squad to throw her around for their tricks? That to me sounds like it would be dangerous. At some point, we all have to accept that we aren't able to do everything we want. Suing the school because she can't be a cheerleader is ridiculous.

[TwilightGardener]

33. I really have to wonder at her parents. If your child is born without certain capabilities,

as we all are to some extent, why steer your child towards those very things she CAN'T do? I'm not talking about pushing your child to overcome a disability that can be mitigated--I'm saying she'll never freakin' grow legs. Ten years of dance lessons? Cheerleading? I mean...why? That's sad. Music, art, anything where practical and feasible adaptations can be made, and don't disrupt fellow participants' experiences in that activity, I applaud. But no arms/legs pretty much means you can't dance or cheerlead. At least not in a way that doesn't drag down the rest of the squad--whom I imagine does not want her for that reason.

[KamaAina]

37. There's adaptive dance. Why not adaptive cheer?

The Bay Area's acclaimed AXIS Dance Company was just featured on "So You Think You Can Dance".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4i6hxXQosQ

Certainly that could translate into a cheer routine. All that is required here is a little imagination.

Oh yes, I have seen a wheelchair user do backflips. She was slammin' on the dance floor at a recent disabilities conference, right alongside the people doing spin moves with their crutches.

[Zywiec]

38. Great, let her start her own Adaptive Cheer group to go along with the other one. n/t

[KamaAina]

41. If you'd seen the clip, you'd know that AXIS consists of both traditional and wheelchair dancers.

The walking dancer employs her partner's wheelchair as a sort of gymnastic apparatus. I would think that would make for outstanding cheer.

[KittyWampus]

82. I saw that routine and though of it as well. We must note however, it was a woman working with the

man in the wheelchair and they were approached by someone with a dance company, as I understood.

An Adaptive Cheer Squad would need to have a choreographer who knew what they were doing- in terms of what is safe for both abled and handicapped cheerleaders as well as artistic possibilities.

[KittyWampus]

80. That's a WONDERFUL IDEA! I hope the young woman would reach out to others and find a mentor

who was willing to work with them.

[kctim]

44. I wanted to be a porn star in high school

trained real hard multiple times a day.
School wouldn't accomadate me one bit.
Bastards.

[WatsonT]

50. Were you . . . ah . . . physically qualified?

[kctim]

62. No

but I blame "measuring errors."

[WatsonT]

139. Just switch to metric

[WinkyDink]

53. The bright side is now you can appeal re: the ADA on account of blindness.

:-)

[kctim]

63. .

:rofl:

[tammywammy]

57. I don't know what kind of reasonable accommodation there is for her.

At the high school I attended, cheerleading wasn't just standing on the sidelines. It was high impact with a lot of gymnastics. They competed in national competitions. There was a handicapped girl on one of the squads, she was missing a hand. She was the flyer and could still perform the other gymnastic maneuvers.

Someone in a wheelchair...I just dont see how they could be a base or a flyer.

[Lucian]

60. Not to sound cruel here, but she shouldn't be allowed on the cheerleading team.

If she can't do what's required of her.

If I wanted to be a cheerleader, but couldn't cartwheel, tumble, or flip, should I still be allowed on the team just because I want to? Same principle.

[CreekDog]

69. maybe that concept of cheerleading, that everybody needs to be able to do the same thing

is outdated.

we're talking about a program in a public school.

shouldn't we be striving to include more people of varied, but not necessarily the same talents in more fields of life?

isn't that what a progressive society seeks to achieve? finding values and talents in more and more people so that they can contribute? the old way being focused on exclusion and uniformity.

sometimes i think some of you are just too small minded to dream big and consider what being a liberal really means in terms of being egalitarian and how it means constantly trying to find ways for more and more people to contribute.

but that's your loss i guess.

[hack89]

72. How do you make it fair and objective?

when everyone is graded on a different set of criteria for the same team? It is impossible - everyone who didn't make the team would have a valid reason to protest.

And in such an intensively athletic activity like cheer-leading, how do you integrate people with lesser abilities? Do you separate them into two groups with one group doing the physically demanding things while the less able do something different? Or do you have one team and dumb down the routines?

[CreekDog]

73. you're saying what they have now is fair and objective?

do you think everyone on the squad has the same level of skill in each area?

when Bruce Bochy (Giants manager) figured out his lineup, did Buster Posey have the same level of skill as Pablo Sandoval or Tim Lincecum? Lincecum can't hit very well and Posey can't pitch...Sandoval can play all those positions. Why didn't Bochy dump the others and just keep Sandoval?

because everyone's contribution is not always in the same area.

and for what it's worth...an observation: the people often most vocal about things being fair when the discussion of expanding opportunities is happening are frequently white and conservative, often fearful that the discussion will allow unqualified to take part in activities and areas of life where they were excluded previously. the fairness, however, was not often worried about or expressed until it seemed like white people were somehow at a disadvantage --no, they were just overly represented prior.

(no, don't get upset, the above is not talking about you, but about white people, and powerful people in general that get upset that others might share in their ranks)

[hack89]

74. There is a minimum skill set

everyone on Bruce Bochy's team can hit, run, throw and catch - all at a very high level. Do you think he would think for a second to fundamentally change the game of baseball to accommodate less skillful athletes? That's what we are talking about - a rigorous standard that few can meet.

As to your other point - come on! Blacks and women were not excluded because they couldn't do the job. The qualifications to make the football team, basketball team, swim team or the cheer leading team were not some physical poll tax designed to unfairly keep handicapped people away. They are designed to pick the very best for the team. Cheer leading is a sport - a tough and physically demanding one. The idea that you have to fundamentally change it to accommodate handicapped people is nonsense.

[CreekDog]

75. what about that pitcher for the Angels a while back?

He was partly missing a limb.

He played. How was his hitting? At a minimum level?

[hack89]

77. Shall we think for second?

What league has the designated hitter? There was a reason he played for Angels and not the Giants.
And how did they change rules of the game or their selection process to accommodate him? That's right, they didn't.

[CreekDog]

78. In the World Series there's a designated hitter for all games?

:shrug:

[hack89]

79. Did they change the game or selection process for him?

What accommodation was made for him? Simple question.

[CreekDog]

81. well you said he met minimum requirements, now you're saying --well they didn't change rules...

you can't just back off on the argument that you made which started this exchange and not expect for it to be noted.

i mean, come on. :eyes:

my position in my statements on this thread have been consistent.

when pressed, as i have done to your positions, you are changing your position without admitting it.

and i'm not letting you get away with that.

what you said about baseball standards was wrong, which is why you're now changing your standard because your original one, still here for everyone to see, isn't as true as you thought.

[hack89]

83. Are you hung up on the batting issue?

He could have swung a bat. There are plenty of hall of fame pitchers that were horrible hitters regardless of how many hands they had. He was in the majors because he met the standard for a major league pitcher. The point is that they held him to the same standard as every one else. He was pitching because he was better then the next guy in line. Since he was a good pitcher and the likelihood of him ever hitting was remote, his handicap was not a big deal. Major league baseball is a serious business - the only question they considered was he the best person available.

The case of the cheer leader is very different - she clearly does not meet the established standards.

[CreekDog]

84. but that's not what you said at first --and you used it as a premise of your statement

so, yes, since you used it to underpin your argument, i am going to hold you to it.

ain't my fault you said that baseball players all can do x, y, and z and now you're saying they don't because maybe they're especially good at one thing and lack in another.

which is what i said about how a disabled person of exceptional talent could be effective and a unique contribution to a cheerleading squad.

but you want to use your time and effort here to get in the way of the disabled participating in cheerleading.

that's your unique contribution to the DU community --you want to use your posts to say that the disabled are not welcome because they don't meet your standards.

no doubt you are proud of your efforts here.

but you shouldn't be.

[hack89]

87. But there was no accommodation made for him

As long as no accommodation is made for her, I have no problem with her cheer leading. He competed and won his spot. She competed and was not good enough - she needs to get on with her life.

[CreekDog]

89. who the hell are you to oppose an accomodation?

THIS is how you're using your time?

to stand in the way of a girl in a wheelchair?

what kind of person does that make you?

i don't even want to know you.

[hack89]

94. She doesn't deserve an accommodation

Unlike housing, employment, and public access, cheerleading is not a fundamental right. You trivial the issue with such nonsense.

[CreekDog]

100. i hope everybody looks at your comment

it speaks to your character.

[hack89]

103. I don't think mine is a minority view. nt

[CreekDog]

112. almost nobody else here is posting a dozen times to keep her off the team

you are demanding that she be excluded because she doesn't have limbs.

that is the minority view --to actually demand she be kept off the team and no exception be made for her or anybody with her disability.

many people may think she can't really do it --none of them are posting a dozen times to just flat out make her stay away.

you are.

you stated flatly that no except can be made for her.

as if you have a say here. and what if you had a say? you'd block the door to the little girl in the wheelchair.

[CreekDog]

141. that's not what ADA says, but being wrong never stops you from posting

you just post how you want the world to look: which is where the disabled get the basics but no other access to society.

you're really hung up on *stopping* a girl in a wheelchair. it's rather amazing.

[hack89]

152. I was just perusing the ADA

and have yet to find anything definitive on this particular issue. Care to provide a link that states that cheer leading is covered by the ADA? I'll still keep looking as well.

[CreekDog]

179. again, am i arguing with a conservative or not?

because if so, i don't wish to continue.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1272790&mesg_id=1272826

[hack89]

182. Am I talking with someone who uses facts and reason?

even though I am willing to continue because of the entertainment value.

[CreekDog]

186. yes and the way you handled losing the baseball argument shows that you don't rely on those

and i still would like to know if i'm arguing with a conservative or not.

[hack89]

226. You have an interesting definition of losing

but please continue.

[Pithlet]

248. ,

[hack89]

263. Wise choice. nt

[Pithlet]

266. I posted in the wrong spot.

But don't worry. I didn't think you were magically going to reach through the internet and hit me or anything :eyes:

[hack89]

165. This is what the Supreme Court says about the ADA and sports

The United States Supreme Court has noted that Title III of the ADA completed three inquiries:

1) Whether the requested modifications is “reasonable,”
2) whether it is “necessary” for the disabled individual, and
3) whether it would “fundamentally alter the nature of” the competition.

PGA Tour, Inc. v. Martin, 532 U.S. 661, 683 n. 38, (2001).

While we can argue about 1 and 2, number 3 is a no brainer. Considering that the cheer leading squad performs in judged competitions against set criteria, it is impossible to argue that fully integrating a handicapped girl into the squad would not “fundamentally alter the nature of the competition” if she can't do many of the things required of her.

[Name removed]

178. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Pithlet]

180. Can you point out in the article

exactly where it states she wants to sabotage the competitions? I must have missed that part.

[hack89]

183. Please don't put words in my mouth

the point is simple - the team is expected to do X, Y, and Z to fare well in competition (ie to win). If someone cannot do X, Y and Z then it perfectly acceptable to exclude them from the team.

Now, if she just wants to cheer on the school team, then why not set up a separate spirit team that allows kids that did not make the cheer squad to express their team spirit?

[Pithlet]

184. I don't have to put words in your mouth.

You're the one making the arguments. I'm just asking you to back them up. She just wants to cheer on the school team. That's the whole point. It doesn't say anywhere in the article that she wants to actually compete in competitions. Nowhere. She just wanted to be on the team. And the school made no effort to make it happen. Hence the lawsuit. They scored her the same way they did the other girls and kept rejecting her.

[hack89]

237. Since the team exists to compete

as well as cheer, why does she get to decide what she gets to do. If she can't meet every demand expected of a cheerleader then they have every right to choose someone else over her.

[Pithlet]

246. Why does she get to decide...

That would the accommodating thing. Yeah, it's as if she "decided" she can't do backflips. No, they don't have every right. THey have to make accommodations. That's the point.

THey "decided" they can't walk far, so why do we have to walk to the farther parking spaces? Geeze... :sarcasm:

[hack89]

261. They don't have to make accommodations - that's the point

the ADA is very specific on that point. The accommodation is to permit her to do the job. It does not say you have to change the job. There is no possible accommodation that will allow her to perform as well as everyone else on the team.

I suggest you spend some time actually reading the ADA - you will be surprised what it says and does not say.

[Pithlet]

265. Are you an expert on the ADA?

I don't profess to be an expert on the ADA. I do know that there are ADA experts that say the ADA does indeed cover this. That's good enough for me. But honestly? I dint' care what the ADA says on it. Even if the ADA doesn't cover it, i'd still think the school were being asses for not letting her cheer. It wouldn't change how I felt about it, really. I still see no reason for not letting her.

[hack89]

269. I have at least taken the time to read it.

and I think time will show that the courts will interpret it the same way I do.

[Vanje]

224. Cheerleading is not a sport.

It is not a sport.
Gymnastics is a sport.
Football is a sport.
Cheerleading is not a sport. Its a social activity.

[hack89]

233. They compete in judged events

against set standards. It is no different from gymnastics - it is actually judged the same way.

[Vanje]

253. So do artists, in juried shows. So do musicians, in competitions.

but these , also, are not sports.

[hack89]

260. But it still requires a high level of gymnastic skill

handicapped people can be highly skilled musicians and artists despite their disabilities - you can't convince me that a girl with no legs and no forearms can be just a good gymnast as an abled body athlete. And if she can be as good, she requires no accommodation - she can try out and be judged by the same standards as everyone else.

[Pithlet]

272. Requires? According to whom?

Is there one central all encompassing ruling body that says that ALL cheerleaderse regardless of the organization they belong to MUST possess this skill. Or is it a performance based choreographed sport of varying level and skill? Yes, the sport has evolved. Many teams no longer even perform on sidelines. But many still do, especially in high school. Its forms are still many and varied. It's the flaw in your ADA argument. You're trying to apply the rules as if cheerleading itself is some rigid entity with rules. It isn't.

[hack89]

275. It is up to the school to decide the requirements

they know what competitions their team will compete in and they understand the physical requirements needed. One thing for certain, those requirements were not put in place just to keep handicapped kids off the team.

[Pithlet]

278. Aha!

And when the school decides that they don't want to budge in those requirements so that a student with different needs isn't excluded, then that's when they potentially run afoul of ADA. They may not have intentionally been put in place to keep "handicapped" :eyes: kids out. But if there's no good reason to keep them in, and they do it anyway, then at best they're just being assholes. They may also be slapped with a lawsuit.

[hack89]

281. You are wrong

the requirements have to be reasonable - they were considering the job to be performed. An accommodation means that she still has to perform to the same standard as everyone else - it is simply the means to overcome her disability. Accommodation does not mean change the job - no interpretation of the ADA requires that. And there is no accommodation possible that will permit her to perform at the same level as her team mates.

[Pithlet]

287. She's not asking them to change the job of cheerleading just for her.

None of the other members of the team have to stop doing back flips, or drop out of competitions, nor do they have to do those things in order to not exclude her. ETA that's really what's so awful about this. IT really wouldn't be costing anyone anything to do this for her. It's just meanness for meanness sake. It's why I really don't care if it runs afoul of ASA or not. It's immaterial to me. They're asses either way. They should do it whether the ADA has anything to do with hits or not, because it's the right thing to do.

[hack89]

290. But she has to be able to do them to be part of the team

if she can't do what the coach requires her to do, then yes she is asking them to change the job.

[Pithlet]

292. No, she doesn't.

There's no reason why she can't cheer her team on as a cheerleader without doing backflips. None. They're just being assholes.

[hack89]

295. Why do you keep ignoring the competitive part?

if she can't compete in the cheer leading competitions they how can she be a cheerleader. It is not optional - if you can only do part of the job then by definition you are not performing to the same standards as everyone else.

She is not just cheering on her team. She is part of a team herself. Just like the team she is cheering, she has to be able to do everything the coach needs her to do.

[Pithlet]

297. Because the competitive part isn't the entire part of cheerleading.

How can she be a cheerleader without the competitive part? Easy. She simply cheers at the games. That's what she wants to do. That's what cheerleading evolved from in the first place. Why not? Is there a law against it? Would the poles reverse? Would the heavens rain down and the lord smite us all? I don't think so.

[Vanje]

273. Accomodate.

It won't detract from the performance. It will add to it.

[hack89]

276. What if the judge disagrees?

competitive cheer leading is extremely athletic.

[Vanje]

286. Are'nt there somethings more important than winning?

Isn't that what "sportsmanship" is supposed to teach?

Who cares about some judge. We're talking team spirit here.

[tammywammy]

262. Cheerleading is most definitely a sport.

It's a very high athletic sport. My high school had some of the top teams. In the yearbook and school wise cheerleading was always classified as a 'sport'. It's much more than the pep rallies and football sidelines, that's really the minor sideshow, it's all about the competitions.

[Vanje]

259. Mean people suck

nt

[jmowreader]

117. No...

but in professional baseball there's no requirement that every player be in every game--ESPECIALLY since we're talking about a pitcher. Just put the guy in the game in the AL park, and keep him out at the NL park. If this was a league where every kid plays in every game he'd be screwed (or, at least, he'd get an out every time he went to bat but since he's a pitcher that goes without saying) but MLB doesn't have that rule.

[Klietzlander]

85. But that isn't a cheerleading squad.

The point of the squad is to have everyone able to act together to perform the routine.

I mean that is a nifty idea but it isn't a cheerleading squad.

[Drahthaardogs]

99. I am all for finding MORE talent

that fact of the matter is, she lacks THIS talent. I am going to sue the NBA cause if they would have just made the hoop 3 feet lower I could dunk all day long...same argument.

[CreekDog]

142. the NBA isn't a public school

:hi:

[CreekDog]

181. what's the physical defintion, by the rule book that every cheerleader needs to meet?

or are those things just a figment of your imagination?

[WatsonT]

198. Likewise if people want to draw in math club

instead of doing math that should be encouraged.

Or if you want to debate instead of play football that should be encouraged for football players.

:sarcasm:

I think you'll find many sports/activities have clearly defined rules and if you don't follow them then you are doing some other sport/activity entirely.

[CreekDog]

293. she's not asking to draw in the math club, she's asking to cheer with cheerleaders

that you denigrate what she actually wants doesn't reflect well on you.

[GreenPartyVoter]

91. As a cheer coach I will chime in...

If it was up to me, then yes I would have asked the administration about offering her a limited honorary spot on the team, meaning that she could participate at games and pep rallies, but not at competition. (I don't think it would be allowed for safety reasons, although maybe in a Top Gun situation where she just performed a cheer or dance with a couple other teammates. I did see, for the first time a participant in a wheel chair participate in stunts but the case was different as he had use of his hands: http://www.youtube.com/user/IntlCheerUnion#p/search/0/RumQ3ixLOjg)

If the school would not allow her to participate, I would let her parents know about nearby Rec and All-star teams which might give her an alternative, the same as I do for anyone who wants to cheer but can't at school. (Not an issue at my school, tho. We're an Elementary/Middle school and we're so small that tryouts aren't held.)

[Shagbark Hickory]

97. Wow! What a sensible and reasonable solution.

Good one. I was about to reply that I was so glad I didn't have to solve this problem.

[SoCalDem]

143. Elementary schools have cheerleaders now?

wow...back in the stone age when I was a student, cheering was only for 9th grade & up..

but I guess when bras are marketed to 5 year olds & puberty is now for 8 yr olds, I guess the sexy cheerleader thing is now for elementary kids too..

[smokey nj]

153. They've had them for decades. The parochial elementary school I attended

from 1974 through 1983 had both a junior varsity and varsity cheerleading squad.

[GreenPartyVoter]

163. I don't dress my kids in sexy cheering outfits and I don't let them do any

inappropriate dance moves.

What I do is I train them like any other sports team in that age group. And, because of their ages, I also guide them in behavior development. Here is our code of conduct, goals, and our rules: (The years I have kids younger than middle school, I reword things so the littler ones can understand.)

Our Code of Conduct

You are representatives of our school and we expect you to put your best foot forward at all times in the classroom, at games and practices, and out in the world at large. Please remember that good sportsmanship is an important part of being a cheerleader. That means we build our school’s or an individual’s spirit up without ever putting another school or person down.


Our Goals

1) To have fun! :^D
2) To develop our skills in leadership, cooperation, perseverance, and in the giving and receiving of constructive criticism.
3) To support our sports teams and boost school spirit.
4) To represent our school as a sports team in our own right.
5) To reach out to the community as school ambassadors.
6) To prepare ourselves for high school cheerleading.


Our Rules

1) The coach is the adult, you are the child. That makes her the boss.
2) Do not leave the practice, game, or competition area without first checking in with the coach.
3) No tumbling or stunting when the coach is not in the room.
4) This is cheerleading practice, not playtime. You are here to work not hang out.
5) Be respectful of others and yourself, whether it concerns feelings or personal space and belongings.
6) Be respectful of the building. Remember, we are guests here so we need to be on our very best behavior.
a. Hands off of what is not ours.
b. Make sure your belongings are not in the way on the stairs or on the hallway floors.
c. Please be very quiet in the hallways and on the stairs.

[fascisthunter]

185. That sounds fair to me...

[Vanje]

231. !

Thats some spirit!

[Enrique]

98. i dont know about the lawsuit, but...

but the school should let her on the team. Find some way to make it work. Its cheerleading for chrissakes. Theyre kids. Let her cheer.

[hack89]

102. I don't think you understand how cheer leading has changed

it is a competitive sport it's own right - girls win college scholarships to cheer in college. The HS cheerleaders are required to take dance and gymnastic lessons - they are just as skilled and athletic as any other athletic team. Their gymnastic routines are amazing - girls flying all over the place in complex routines. How do you fit a disabled girl into such a team with fundamentally changing the routine.

Would you say "its football for chrissakes"?

[Vanje]

258. I see. Its like beauty pagents

No?

[tammywammy]

264. No, it's not like a beauty pageant at all.

Do you also equate gymnastics and beauty pageants?

[saras]

108. Some days this place is just like a bar fight in a Western...

Someone responds to asshattery with more asshattery, and pretty soon everyone is smashing bottles over the heads of their erstwhile drinking companions, kicking over tables, and rolling through the walls, as an esteemed bard once put it, "kickin' and a-gougin' in the mud and the blood and the beer." It's pretty funny.


The school was dumb not to accomodate her, given the combination of her extensive work and skill, and her popularity with other students. Most likely, they needn't "accomodate" her much, and in fact, with 10 years of dance background, she could herself be designing the routines to include her where appropriate.

Her parents were dumb to sue the school. The ugliness created by a lawsuit is likely to outweigh any goodwill generated by cheerleaders at all this year, no matter how it turns out.

"The sponsor of the program, he wrote, asked administrators before last spring's tryouts what accommodations should be made for Julia. The sponsor was told Julia was to be judged in the same way as other participants. Three tryout judges were given the same instructions. Seventy-five percent of a participant's score was based on physical activities. Twenty-five percent was based on teacher evaluation.

In the performance portion, Julia received her lowest score in the jumps/kicks category and her highest marks in the communication skills and enthusiasm/spirit categories."

No surprises here, so the debate is on how essential the jumps/kicks are to the job...

[Odin2005]

109. You go Julia!

[jmowreader]

116. I see a safety issue here

Players running out of bounds is common in both football and basketball--and when they do it, they aren't looking to see where they're going. I have seen a BUNCH of athletes accidentally run into the area where the cheerleaders are working. For able-bodied cheerleaders, avoiding injury is no problem--just run like hell. They do it all the time. Julia's powerchair won't move fast enough to get out of the way...so what happens when a promising high school athlete who's been accepted to a college on athletic scholarship runs over Julia in her chair and ends his or her athletic career?

[CreekDog]

285. should people in wheelchairs be banned from the sidelines of athletic events?

you can't be serious.

[Vanje]

291. Yeah

because a wheelchair bound person on the sidelines might injure the star football-player, and ruin his chance at an athletic scholarship. Oh mah Gawd.

Thats a big problem , isnt it? Goddam sideline cheering Assholes in wheelchairs ruining football careers!
(Don't tell me I need a "satire" smiley, for you to understand that.)

[CreekDog]

294. yeah, sometimes you read things here that seem to come out of left field

still, that one was a :wtf:

:hi:

[Vanje]

299. Apparently , wheelchairbound sideliners ruining athletic careers is a common problem

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1479353&mesg_id=1490523

[CreekDog]

308. those posters are trippin

:rofl:

[jmowreader]

310. During play? Oh hell yes they should be banned--

and I think they already ARE.

Scenario time: Your son is a receiver for this school's football team after they've made this girl a member of the cheerleading squad. He's trying to catch a pass. He's looking at the football and not the cheerleader in a wheelchair. During the play your son runs over the wheelchair-bound cheerleader and fucks himself up to the point he is also in a wheelchair. Do you:

a) Applaud the school for their attempts at inclusion

or

b) Sue the school for allowing a clearly hazardous situation to occur?

The article says the school offered to let her be a cheerleader for two sports--probably volleyball, where there is limited running, and wrestling, where there's no running at all. If she would have taken the offer I would have been all "hey, great! This is going to change a lot of minds about the differently abled." But in football? No. There is a safety issue so I can't really see anyone allowing this--if they DID allow her to be a football cheerleader the state would probably tell them not to let her. Besides, isn't she already in pep band? That's a pretty cool way to cheer on your team too.

[CreekDog]

315. BS --people are allowed on the sidelines during games --but people in wheelchairs are not?

:wtf:

:wtf:

[Rebubula]

120. Sue God...

...he is the asshole in this equation.

[WatsonT]

140. He never pays though

jurisdictional thing.

[yella_dawg]

144. They're suing because their daughter can't get into exotic dancer classes?

How can a girl with no legs flash her crotch at old guys in the stands?

[FLAprogressive]

174. IIRC under the ADA accomodations have to be "reasonable". I can't fathom any "reasonable" way to put

her on the team aside from the aforementioned "honorary" position.

[jeepnstein]

201. As a former cheerleader...

I have to say she should be on the squad. I'd give points for every missing extremity multiplied by the number of ignorant jokes she can generate per hour. The world is full of people who would lock the disabled into a basement rather than be reminded of them. Life's hard, it's even harder when you don't have any arms or legs.

If I were advising that squad I'd darn well find a place for her.

[Vanje]

255. Yes.

Thank you

[Vanje]

256. Go Julia! You got the spirit girl!

Go Julia!
Don't you worry what their bitter hearts are gonna say.

This for you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FV-HPOHu8mY

[Vanje]

257. MEAN PEOPLE SUCK

Yes. They do.

[Aerows]

267. She isn't just "disabled"

She's VERY disabled. She lacks legs, hands and most of her arms. I appreciate that she wants every opportunity to do everything that she wants to do in life, but suing the school because of unrealistic expectations is ridiculous.

An exceptional blind kid could play basketball, if he is one of those like the kid that learned to skate, ride his bike and everything else by using techniques like a bat does. Not every blind kid is exceptional.

If some football player crashes into her wheelchair when she's on the sidelines because she can't get out of the way, and it ends his potential for a college scholarship, or if her cheerleading team doesn't make finals and endangers her fellow team mates chances for scholarships, no, she shouldn't be allowed.

There is a danger here, and it's a lot more than just "she's disabled". They had a guy on the cheerleading team that someone linked here that was capable of doing it by virtue of his upper body strength. She doesn't even have that going for her.

I feel sorry for her, but setting the expectation that she can be a cheer leader just because she wants to be one sets a bad precedent. You have to be exceptional to take part in many sports; clearly, she isn't exceptional enough, and using her disability as a bludgeon is just plain wrong for those who didn't get picked either because they weren't exceptional.

[Pithlet]

296. I read the article again just to make sure. But I can't find an actual lawsuit mentioned.

I thought that was curious, because a lawsuit has been mentioned more than once in this thread. It seems everyone is just assuming they're suing. I can understand the confusion because they mention a lawyer, and the ADA is cited. But just because parents have a lawyer doesn't mean they're suing. Parents will often use lawyers when dealing with their school in matters like this. Sometimes parents will bring their lawyers just for routine IEP meetings. But it doesn't mean they're suing.

[Islandlife]

322. Well Read

This reply should have been posted at the beginning of this long discussion.

Many would argue that regardless of the law the right thing to do would be to accommodate. Laws are not always right at the moment;it may vacillate over time.

Others would say that if there is no current legal basis, then it is not right(at the moment). Therefore, accommodating would violate some other right.

I don't know. We have so many "rights" that conflict with each other. I wish we had only 10 and wouldn't add more but use those to be the basis of every dispute on a case by case basis.

In this case, she is free to try and fail, and try again at another institution that may be more accommodating.

Go ahead and flame me. I'm not looking back. :hide:

[Vanje]

298. Those menacing disabled people and their damn wheelchairs

.... ruining footballer's chances at scholarships!
Its SO unfair!!!!!!!!!!!!!


THEY MUST BE STOPPED AT ALL COST!

[CreekDog]

300. quick, get security!

shoo that guy in the wheelchair off the field! right? that's what you want, right?

[Vanje]

301. O.M.G!

Those poor athletes! Their careers are in jeopardy!

Somebody SOMEBODY DO SOMETHING!

[Zywiec]

302. Didn't that player qualify to be part of the team originally and got hurt playing?

You would want the game changed so he could play now right? that's what you want, right?

[CreekDog]

303. please keep up with the exchange you're involving yourself in

she said wheelchairs on the sidelines shouldn't be allowed.

do you agree or not?

very simple question.

[Zywiec]

304. You're right. This is such a silly discussion. I should have known better. n/t

[Vanje]

305. It does appear as though the wheelchair guy....

.....is on the team.
They didn't kick him off.

[Vanje]

309. ^ & ^

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORwZniYnYOc

[jeepnstein]

325. Winning competitions is a bogus excuse.

It's quite possible for a person to be on a squad and not take part in competition. Part of being on a squad is knowing when to take one for the team. What makes you think she's selfish enough to sink the rest of the group?

When I used to work with girls trying out as collegiate cheerleaders I found quickly that the thing that held them back wasn't being on a award winning squad. I saw plenty of them that were the hottest things to ever come out of their high school. What held them back was physical strength, a winning attitude, and the lack of knowledge of working with a male cheerleader. I had a steady stream of girls heading for my dorm door because one of the girls on the squad was a partner on our HS squad. I'd say two thirds of them couldn't or wouldn't do the basic stunts and lifts that any collegiate squad uses. They lacked an attitude that made them good cheerleaders. Pretty girls are a dime a dozen but pretty tough girls are priceless.

If she'd got the mental toughness to go out in front of a crowd that would be far more idiotic and vocal than even the posters on this board, more power to her. I say give her every chance in the world to prove she can't do it.

[Vanje]

306. This thread

reminds me of what I HATED so much about high school.
It was back in the early 1970s.
The unkindness almost killed me.
If you weren't a jock or a cheerleader, you were nothing.
When its all about winners, and you're not one of these, you are a loser.

After all this time, it still goes that way?

[Imajika]

317. That's life...

"When its all about winners, and you're not one of these, you are a loser."

This will never change. There is zero chance of removing competitiveness from life. People will always strive to be the best at things they are interested in, and the losers will always feel bad when they fail or just don't have the talent for something.

[Vanje]

318. Most of us have left high school behind. Thank God!

In real life, the jocks and cheerleaders are NOT held to be better than the others.
Looking back now, I see they were for the most part, bully boys and mean girls.


Are you still in that High School state of mind?
Tell me what its like to to peak at age 16.



Julia Sullivan did'nt get a chance to fail, because no one gave her a chance to play.

[Imajika]

320. What on earth are you getting all nasty about?

"Are you still in that High School state of mind? Tell me what its like to to peak at age 16."

No, I'm long past my high school years and high school state of mind, but that doesn't change that fact that life is every bit as competitive now as it was then - and it always will be.

"Julia Sullivan did'nt get a chance to fail, because no one gave her a chance to play."

No, Julia is disabled to the extent that she can't currently be a cheerleader. Life isn't fair, and not all of us have the physical abilities to do anything we want.

[Vanje]

307. dupe

[Manifestor_of_Light]

314. They should put her on the team.

She can dance in her wheelchair, yell cheers, and wave pompoms if they are attached to her arms, like in the picture of the girl with mallets attached to her arms so she can play percussion.

The girl should have a uniform and be part of the team. She can't do the flips, but she can yell and work up a crowd. The school board is being a bunch of jerks and they will probably be SOOOO surprised if they get sued. I know about idiot school districts.

[Imajika]

316. Sorry, Julia is pretty obviously too disabled to be a cheerleader...

Modern cheerleading is almost as competitive a sport as the teams they "cheer" for. Cheerleaders compete against one another and other squads in tournaments, win scholarships based on their ability, etc. The school could have made her an "honorary cheerleader" I suppose, but she simply can't compete when it comes to doing the real thing with the rest of the squad.

“'They haven't seen me,' she said. 'They just have it in their mind that I can't do it.'”

I admire her for trying to overcome her disability, but no, she can't do it.

"She wants to get people excited for games"

She can do that from the stands.

We should always be trying to make accommodations for those with special needs and disabilities, but very often there is just not going to be anything reasonable that can be done.

Maybe the cheerleading squad could have selected her to help with the team in other ways? Her attitude is pretty inspiring, so perhaps being part of the time in a different capacity would have been a good compromise?

[JCMach1]

324. But what if you are ADHD and can't remember the cheers...

shouldn't you be accommodated for that?

No easy answers here...

[slackmaster]

326. I'd like to recommend a short story by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr. at this point in the discussion

http://www.tnellen.com/cybereng/harrison.html