60,000 Billion Times the Output of the Sun

[HysteryDiagnosis]

ON EDIT TO MOVE THE DECIMAL POINT.




http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/00current.htm

Billions of Suns, Billions of years
Jul 13, 2011

If redshift (z) indicates distance, then astronomers have discovered the superlative object: the most distant, the most ancient, the most luminous, the most massive.

Analysis of the object’s spectrum shows that its lines have shifted toward the red by over 700% (z=7.1). The consensus opinion is that the object—a quasar—is therefore almost 13 billion light-years away. Since its light is presumed to have taken nearly 13 billion years to reach us, the quasar formed and became fully operational less than 800 million years after the widely publicized secular Genesis Event that most astronomers truly believe created both the universe and the coordinate system in which it is described.

To appear as bright as it does at that distance, it must be giving off about 60,000 billion times the output of the Sun. To get that much energy, 2 billion Suns must be crammed into a mathematical point called a black hole.

[Broderick]

1. fascinating

Thanks!

[HysteryDiagnosis]

2. I'll bet this sort of thing makes some people red in the face. n/t

[Broderick]

4. I bet it left a mark

Anyway, jokes aside. The number is fascinating. Unfathomable. How. why. Such amazing things we have no understanding of.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

10. How and why.... it points to the definite possibility that redshift has little or nothing to

do with distance... read the page, understand the premise, check out this book. When people tell you that you are full of woo, tell them that you don't like to divide by zero.

http://www.amazon.com/Quasars-Redshifts-Controversies-Halton-Arp/dp/0521363144/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1310600559&sr=8-1


For twenty years, the author has contested the 'establishment' view of quasars as the most distant objects in the universe. In this book, Arp presents the original observations and fundamental data on quasars and galaxies, and explains why he has concluded that: far from being the most distant objects in the universe, quasars are associated in space with relatively nearby galaxies; quasars' enormous redshifts do not arise from the expansion of the universe, but rather are intrinsic properties of the quasars themselves; many galaxies show redshift anomalies related to quasars' redshifts; quasars and galaxies have an origin far different from that assumed in the 'standard' big-bang model of the universe; many astronomers, despite the accumulation of compelling evidence, defend what Arp believes is a fundamentally incorrect assumption about cosmic objects.

[Broderick]

15. I was just responding to the obvious joke

but now I have more reading to do.

[Confusious]

37. After reading up on Mr. arp

It seems he postulated his theory in the 60's. With the amount of data taken since then, his theory was easily disproved, but he keeps pushing it to the uniformed.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

46. So that's what happened. It's all so clear now. Actually redshift may be primarily due

to an objects age and not so much its recessional velocity.

[Confusious]

63. Do I shift into the red as I get older?

Please. Stars have spectra which is well understood.

For example, hydrogen only gives off light at a couple of frequencies. if you see hydrogen in a star, you can check how much it has red shifted.

Age has nothing to do with it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_spectral_series

[Electric Monk]

5. What, playing fast and loose with decimal points?

Did you read your own post? You might want to check it again.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

14. Doesn't matter, I'm a scientist, decimel points are small change. n/t

[hobbit709]

16. If you're unconcerned with "decimel" points, you're no scientist.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

19. When I divide by zero as they do when they conjure up black holes.... decimal points

just move around on their own.

[trotsky]

25. You are many things, HD, but "scientist" is definitely not one of them. n/t

[CleanGreenFuture]

3. The mysteries of the universe never cease to amaze.

[NCarolinawoman]

6. Whoa!

Don't know what to say. That makes my brain hurt.:D

[HysteryDiagnosis]

8. Just think how many golf carts that could power!!!! The mind boggles. nt

[SidDithers]

7. Here's the science release from the European Southern Observatory...

http://www.eso.org/public/news/eso1122/

If you want the information from a site that's not trying to sell you books about the Electric Universe.

Sid

[Broderick]

9. I find that electric universe theory interesting

but never bought a book.

[trotsky]

12. Yes. It's good science fiction. n/t

[Broderick]

21. really

I find it interesting. But I am always interested in opposing theories. My friend is a nuclear scientist, and he would never publish an alternative theory out of fear of other scientists. It is a sham how science comes out sometimes, and how ostracized one can be for even entertaining other ideas not in the mainstream of theory. That is sad to me. I enjoy this kind of stuff, but I am no scientist, just a simple guy who is interested in the universe and its origins. I don't think anyone really knows anything about the dynamics billions of light years away.

[trotsky]

22. No one who has actual facts on their side needs to be afraid of science.

What are they going to do to him? Beat him up, pants him, and take his lunch money?

Tell me, are you interested in "opposing theories" like creationism, flat earth theory, or climate change denial?

[Broderick]

26. You think business and the workplace is tough

I hear science is brutal in certain circles. I don't live there. I just hear.

[trotsky]

31. Ah, hearsay.

So valid it's admissible in a court of law. Oh, wait...

[Broderick]

35. hearsay here perhaps

but my friend follows the mainstream theories, but entertains privately other theories too. I don't think he lies about the enormous pressure to stick with well funded theories.

[trotsky]

40. My friend says your friend couldn't be more wrong. n/t

[Broderick]

44. I don't know about that

He hasn't said he believes any other theories on things, just that he entertains studying them. I guess you are part of the keep them in line crowd right? I don't know much about things beyond, but I don't think we know. I am assuming you are a scientist too.

[trotsky]

47. My friend says you're wrong too. n/t

[Broderick]

48. ok

[HysteryDiagnosis]

34. I have read Molecules of Emotion by Candace Pert, she woefully described what went

on in the ranks when she was a research scientist and what happened to her work.

[Broderick]

49. I hear it is brutal

[trotsky]

61. I hear it isn't.

That's what my friend says, too.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

23. Check this out Broderick.... it is free and enlightening, the person you responded to

is named ignored on my screen for good reason.

http://www.science-frontiers.com/sf056/sf056a02.htm

[hobbit709]

27. Can't handle opposing viewpoints.

Just remember the famous Nils Bohr quote.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

29. Just remember Hubbles doubts. n/t

[trotsky]

28. Probably because I bring too many facts to your threads.

I know how you hate how those mess up your theories and perpetual motion machines.

[Broderick]

32. Thanks

I am watching a link you posted downward. I love this stuff.

[provis99]

33. if goofy stuff like string theory gets published,

I take it then that your "friend" is some kind of whacko.

[Broderick]

39. You know it depends on who and what publishes

theories like that right? I don't think he is wacky. He teaches at one of the biggest universities in California as a scientist. His wife is also a PHD in microbiology and also teaches, and is my wife's best friend. I love the talks to be honest because he certainly understands more than I.

[Confusious]

41. I hear there's this theory about how man

was created, and the earth is only 6,000 years old.

should we teach that one?

Or maybe the one about aliens building the pyramids.

If your friend is afraid of other scientists, maybe he hasn't got the math or the data.

Einstein published his work, everybody rained down on him like a ton of bricks. Who do we remember now? not the naysayers. Einstein had the math and the data.

[Broderick]

45. There isn't much we have talked about that has anything to do

with the age of the earth or the universe, and Good lord, it is easy to even assume that the earth alone is billions of years old. That is not even a thought on things, yet some of the electric properties seem to make sense on how our own solar system functions.

[Confusious]

50. I find it hard to believe that a lightning bolt

carved a valley on mars, when a simpler explanation will do.

A meteor, water, etc.

Mythology for people afraid of reality.

mmm, seems the author has a B.S. IN POLITICAL SCIENCE. really? you don't even need math for that. You're going to advocate for a theory that is no better then saying "Thor causes lightning?"

A good theory allows you to predict behavior, like general relativity predicted gravitational lensing. One that doesn't is a fraud.

[Broderick]

52. I don't think we discussed or have I read a valley on mars carved

but the rings on Saturn and the way the magnetic properties on the Sun work. I think maybe you know much more on the science than I do obviously, but I have had electricity zap me in the hand once.

I am not afraid of reality. I just don't think people truly know. I think the blackhole theory on properties of a galaxy are far fetched on gravity as an example because they reach for dark matter when the properties of magnetic behavior might be an answer. That is the stuff I think is interesting. I haven't seen that tied to myth, but science of electricity. Never once have I read something in that realm that ties itself to creation crap. Maybe I don't dig enough.

[Confusious]

54. Black holes have nothing to do with dark matter

black holes are created by the collapse of stars due to gravity,

The black hole "theory" is also backed up by math that is almost 100 years old. It is an extension of general relativity,

The movements of the rings of Saturn can also be explained by general relativity, They have small moons which Shepard the rings into position.

[Broderick]

55. Well I was trying to make a point about the gravitational

anomalies in galaxies that is made to work by the theory of dark matter. I think the colliders may help us understand better.

[Confusious]

56. I've never read the book, because it's crap.

Political scientists (the author has a degree in political science) aren't my go-to people for hard science.

To put it simply as I can...

a) gravity does exist, because it's effects are predicted by general relativity. Gravity is also a weak force. Your muscles allow you to beat it every day.

b) magnetism would not cause gravitational lensing as predicted by general relativity.
Magnetism is also a strong force. Your muscles cannot pull apart two strong magnets.

soooo....

c) If magnetism was the defining force in the universe, the universe would not exist because everything would be pulled together due to the strength of magnetism.

d) If the magnetism of the magnets that you tried to pull part in a) is not the same as the magnetism between planets, then there is a force that physicists have not found yet, and we have not seen a hint of in our daily lives. If it not that, then why call it magnetism. call it woo.

ergo, the book is crap.

There are a lot of things science can't explain yet. Doesn't mean they're wrong. It just means we have a lack of understanding. You couldn't have a carriage before you had the horse. you couldn't have the stoplight without the car first.

If the theory doesn't work, it will be revised. Just because it can't explain everything right away doesn't mean we should junk it for "Thor did it" It works now, and if it stops working it will be replaced or revised.

[Broderick]

60. Thanks

What book though?

[Confusious]

62. talbot. The electric universe. nt

[HysteryDiagnosis]

58. A lightning bolt.... how strange that you would refer to interplanetary plasma discharge

as a "lightning bolt. Then there is the issue of dark matter, hey look some just passed by the moon, I tell ya I saw it, I have pictures, doctored though they may be, I have PROOF!!!


http://www.holoscience.com/news.php?article=zc22ejwj&keywords=gravitational%20lensing#dest
From the New York Times: ''This is really exciting,'' said University of Chicago physicist Sean Carroll, adding that the observations demonstrate the existence of dark matter ''beyond a reasonable doubt.''

Physorg.com confidently headlined: "A Matter of Fact: NASA Finds Direct Proof of Dark Matter." This echoes the remark by Doug Clowe of the University of Arizona at Tucson, and leader of the study: "These results are direct proof that dark matter exists."

"Direct " means “having no intervening conditions or agencies” — implying that dark matter has been observed. But it hasn't. The pretty image above gives the impression that dark matter radiates blue light. It doesn't. The mass of dark matter that astronomers "find" is fabricated from assumptions and calculations. The telescope images have had an artefact superimposed—a blue "lensing map" that paints in what NASA scientists believe should be there. They’ve done this before: They painted hot lava fountains onto images of Io where the camera pixels were inexplicably overexposed by intense light. Digitally superimposing some imagined thing or mathematical virtual reality over an image is an artistic activity. It isn't science. Positing unobserved matter to account for physical phenomena is tantamount to a belief in fairies. If a theorist is unable to discover real objects, which cause the observed effects, it is unscientific—indeed, it is fraudulent science—to invent unreal objects and present them as a "factual" discovery of the cause of those effects.

"Criticism and dissent are the indispensable antidote to major delusions."
– Alan Barth, Professor of Political Science, University Of California, Berkeley.

[Confusious]

66. I think I'm begining to see your problem

You get your theories from a guy who has a degree in political science.

He's a little hint. Political science has nothing to do with REAL science.

[CleanGreenFuture]

51. Wasn't Galileo placed under house arrest for life for his ideas?

[Broderick]

53. Many scientists

that opposed conventional wisdom have.

today it is financial oppression.

JMO

String theory, black holes, red shift, etc. are well funded starting points nowadays I guess. Maybe just maybe other ideas matter. I like the wrong idea of a telescope things. I think the colliders are going to really tell us a lot.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

11. Read the lectric plasmaverse stuff and see why billions of dollars (your dollars) have

been spent looking through the wrong end of the telescope.

[hobbit709]

13. good thing it's that far away because otherwise the radiation would fry everything on earth.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

17. Oh.... you believe it is far away..... interesting, I suppose you think that's air you're breathing.

[indepat]

18. It's times like this it's hard to get one's mind wrapped around the vastness of

space. ;)

[HysteryDiagnosis]

20. Here, if you really want to end up in the psych ward.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEQouX5U0fc

[Broderick]

24. watching now

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WillyT]

36. Which Goes To Prove... We... Ain't... Shit...

But... we're all we've got.

:grouphug:

:hi:

[HysteryDiagnosis]

38. Here is how it worked out for the man who sort of said the emperor has no clothes...

The last sentence is a keeper.


http://www.science-frontiers.com/sf056/sf056a02.htm

We know that we have perhaps overplayed the shakiness of the redshiftdistance hypothesis and the fizzling of the Big Bang, but our whole cosmological outlook is at stake. Now, rather than review again the scientific pros and cons (you can read Arp's book for that), we will be content here with a few comments about how science has failed to work well in Arp's case.

G. Burbidge, who reviews the book, recalls how the politics of science works in the following quotation:

"...the important factors for a successful career are your sponsors (where and with whom did you get your Ph.D); field of research (popular or unpopular); and diplomatic skills (always speak quietly with great conviction, and, when in doubt, agree with the wisest person present, who by definition must come from one of the the very few institutions). Look upon new ideas with great disapproval and never discover a phenomenon for which no explanation exists, and certainly not one for which an explanation within the framework of known physics does not appear to be possible."

Arp played this game for 29 years at the Mount Wilson and Palomar Observatories. He compiled the marvelous Atlas of Peculiar Galaxies, and was once rated among the top 20 astronomers. But he kept finding Anomalies -- apparently-associated celestial objects with different redshifts. More and more he began to believe and (perhaps recklessly) assert that some redshifts are not cosmological; that is, a measure of recessional velocity and distance. Soon, his rating dropped from the "upper 20" to "under 200". The final (and disgraceful) blow came about four years ago, when he received an unsigned letter stating that his work was without value and that he could have no more telescope time! Arp now lives in West Germany. (Burbidge, Geoffrey; "Quasars, Redshifts, and Controversies," Sky and Telescope, 75:38, 1988.)

Comment. More political details may be found in Arp's book. Is Arp a martyrin-the-making? You bet he is! Burbidge, an admitted Arp sympathizer, suggests that the "Arp Effect" is only the tip of the iceberg. In closing his review, he invokes the ghost of Alfred Wegener, who had the temerity to suggest that continents could drift.

[trotsky]

57. Sort of.

"But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown." -- Carl Sagan

[originalpckelly]

59. Aw, I know that too well.

Actually, quite honestly, it would be a step up for the likes me in life if I was laughed at like Bozo, at least I would make someone happy! :P

[jeff47]

65. The problem is he failed at the science

"But he kept finding Anomalies -- apparently-associated celestial objects with different redshifts. More and more he began to believe and (perhaps recklessly) assert that some redshifts are not cosmological; that is, a measure of recessional velocity and distance."

The problem was his reaction was to simply toss aside the generally accepted theory without trying to figure out how his observations could fit within it first.

99.999999999999999% of the time, science moves forward by tweaks to the existing models.
0.000000000000001% of the time, the generally accepted theory is completely wrong.

So the correct approach is to report the anomalies and try to prove they actually are anomalies. For example, our model of "associated" celestial objects could be wrong. Or perhaps the object wasn't moving in the direction he thought it was.

Instead, he asserted his observations must be correct and the overall model is wrong.

[spanone]

42. and it's less than 6000 years old!!!!!!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Broderick]

43. LOL

[fascisthunter]

64. Mind Blowing