I'm sorry, I don't trust ANY of this debt limit stage show. I'm not going to get all tingly over

[scarletwoman]

3rd hand quotes about Obama going all kick-ass or whatever.

I'm most certainly not going to trust any Republican on anything.

I do not even -- at this point, after all that's come before -- have any trust in giving into "hope" that things are going to turn out okay. On the contrary, I'm quite certain that things will continue to get worse for the ordinary people of this country (and the world, for that matter) whatever the outcome of the Great Debt Ceiling Battle ("Police Action"?)of 2011.

I come by this attitude honestly. I come by it by the realization that DC's Battles are not our battles. Sure, we're effected, we are more likely to be trampled as the Great Beasts of the two Parties scuffle and charge at each other. But let us not mistake the feet that trample us less as evidence of benevolence.

sw

[some guy]

1. agree.

:applause:

[scarletwoman]

2. Thanks! I appreciate "some guy" getting what I wrote.

:D

[NCarolinawoman]

3. I'm very much in a wait and see mode, with a bit of trepidation.

We don't have enough details right now. If Obama is standing strong against the Republicans, as reported, I want to know exactly what is in those 4 trillion dollar cuts.

[scarletwoman]

8. "I want to know exactly what is in those 4 trillion dollar cuts." Exactly.

[socialist_n_TN]

119. Well, I agree with you guys. As far as I can tell

Obama is getting testy at the Republicans not going along with CUTS to the big social programs. That does NOT make me feel comfortable.

Yeah, I wanted a little more fight out of him, but not a fight AGAINST our positions on the issues.

[SusanaMontana41]

176. 100 percent agree. n/t

[woo me with science]

147. They will tell us. Right as it is passed.

They will take this shit right up to the deadline, when it will have to be passed immediately "to avert catastrophe."

Just like the Patriot Act.

Just like the extension of the Bush tax cuts.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=439&topic_id=1467681

[abelenkpe]

207. Sounds about right

I'm sure both parties will spin it as a victory.

[newspeak]

235. you'd think after a couple of times doing this shite

the majority of the people would get the MO.

[riderinthestorm]

4. K & R. nt

[eleny]

5. k&r

[CoffeeCat]

6. Spot on! I read a quote the other day...

...that relates to what you are saying, "As I get older, I pay less attention to what people
say and more attention to what they do."

Seriously--this entire debt-ceiling chaos feels like Kabuki theater. Like you, I'm not going to
get whipped up into a frothy lather, caught up in the fight and getting all excited because one
politician kicked ass and another politician walked out. Whatever.

The only thing that matters is the FINAL DEAL. I won't be dazzled by all of these fireworks.

I'm not going to get all emotional about the battle--and allow that to diminish or minimize some really
terrible outcomes. It's possible that all of this is being done to create smoke--for when Obama
continues these sick Bush tax cuts--which enrich billionaires and millionaires during a horrible
economic crisis. I won't allow theater to make Soc Sec and Medicare cuts okay.

Both of those thing would be unprecedented corporate/neocon kow towing by a Democratic President--very
disgusting and outrageous.

I don't care what they say---I just want to see what they're going to do.

[scarletwoman]

15. "I don't care what they say - I just want to see what they're going to do." Yes!

I'm tired of the show. Just show us the bill.

sw

[roxiejules]

261. +1

n/t

[tavalon]

87. It's not Kabuki theater,

it's bread and circuses. I kid. It's both.

[Bluenorthwest]

123. Not Kabuki and not Circus....

It is theater, but it is this kind: Grand Guignol.
http://www.grandguignol.com/history.htm

[The Big Vetolski]

221. Yikes! That's just...

:puke: Oh, God, you're RIGHT, Dude!

[IDemo]

7. Agreed also

Along with disaster capitalism comes disaster politicking, like two peas in a pod (pardon the simile).

[scarletwoman]

19. "Along with disaster capitalism comes disaster politicking..." Precisely!

Thank you for pointing this out! :thumbsup:

sw

[Gin Blossom]

182. Good one - disaster politics

Id feel better that though Obama thankfully has expressed taxes should be raised somewhat on the 1%, he also buys into the "austery" frame of a family trying to balance its budget, with things like putting food on the table categorized as discretionary, unlike funding the family's MIC and protection money to the local mob.

[scarletwoman]

229. Marvelous post! "...putting food on the table categorized as discretionary, unlike funding

"the family's MIC and protection money to the local mob."

Brilliant!

[woo me with science]

217. Well said. nt

[senseandsensibility]

9. I'm a little embarrassed to admit it, but I honestly don't

understand what is happening or supposed to be happening. It seems like we are being manipulated, and I don't like that.

[scarletwoman]

13. We are most certainly being manipulated, let us have no doubt that whatevsoever.

Right now that's the most important thing to remember at all times: we are being manipulated.

It cannot be repeated enough!

sw

[woo me with science]

16. +1

[truedelphi]

226. + My Household. n/t

[hamsterjill]

189. You shouldn't be embarrassed.

None of us really knows what's happening. Because they aren't telling us everything.

[locahungaria]

197. Same here. n/t

[woo me with science]

10. K&R nt

[slipslidingaway]

11. knr ...

"...But let us not mistake the feet that trample us less as evidence of benevolence."

:applause:

[scarletwoman]

14. Thank you!

:D

[slipslidingaway]

169. :) kick nt

[grahamhgreen]

12. So far, nothing real or definitive has been stated that I have seen.

[scarletwoman]

24. And that's the truth! I'm sick of watching these guys pontificate about "pain" and all that

horseshit. As if they had any fucking idea, or gave a fucking shit.

sw

[woo me with science]

33. No, but we are being fed a dramatic but vapid storyline to keep us busy.

The meeting was tense....

Obama walked out....

The Republicans threatened....

Obama held his ground and asserted dramatically, "I will take it to the American people!"

The White House actually just released a video of "Obama at the negotiations." No content there, either, but we are invited to swoon at his firm demeanor like the audience of a cheap evening soap opera.

What a load of crap. We are being fed empty drama to make us feel as though we are a part of what is going on. None of this changes the fact that they are doing all of this behind closed doors, where we have NO INPUT. They will drag this charade out until the very end, when they will emerge with a done deal that must be passed immediately to avert catastrophe.

It will affect every one of our lives. But we have had no input whatsoever.

We are being played like fools.

[scarletwoman]

36. Thank you! I'm glad I'm not the only one seeing it like this!

I'm outta the theater. We've got some real work to do on the ground with our fellow citizens, instead of watching this made-for-tv phony drama.

sw

[emilyg]

253. You're not the only one.

[scarletwoman]

255. Obviously not! This has turned out to be a wonderful thread, so many good minds speaking up!

:hi:

[gkhouston]

46. The drama's so we won't think about why the debt ceiling is a "crisis"

now when it hasn't been before, and why Social Security, which is self-funded, is on the table, but the defense budget (which is a huge part of our deficit) is not.

[scarletwoman]

47. Bingo. Spot on!

:applause:

[woo me with science]

52. It angers me. I resent being manipulated and played.

And it offends me that people eat it up like flies on shit.
This country had better smarten up, or we will be lost soon.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x710145

[scarletwoman]

55. Re: that link...

Gack! :banghead:

[newspeak]

231. I agree Scarletwoman

On the table, over 80 percent of what the repugs wanted. Cantor, the weasel, comes in and states we want it all or nothing. The corporate media is saying that Wall Street is influencing the repugs to settle so that interest does not go up and our rating doesn't go down. Cantor, I understand, has a stake in making money if they don't reach an agreement. Anyone know about that? But, apparently, Wall Street is urging the repugs to settle.

At last, the debt ceiling is raised, the public sighs in relief, and the arsehole sociopaths get their social safety net cuts at our expense. Then we can all cheer and say "we won." We won nothing. The harm is allowing them to have eighty percent to the detriment of most americans. Social Security shouldn't even be on the table.

How many times did they raise the debt ceiling for Little boot's bogus war? And then, to not add the war cost in the budget was a despicable act. These repugs are hypocrites in the worse way, they created the problem and now they have the very damaging solution.

[tavalon]

88. Yes, we are

But the only people who notice are wonks like us here at DU. My otherwise highly educated friend didn't even know all the details and when I mentioned that I was done with this "third way" shit, he didn't have any idea about what group I was talking about or that they are the rebranding of the DLC or even what the DLC was. He is not listening to anything but NPR.

[woo me with science]

102. That is what is so creepy and disturbing.

You are right. I have not heard the term "Third Way" on any standard news show at all, ever.

First they took our news away and gave us fake news designed to shock and entertain. Now, I honestly think we are seeing a new step in the creation of manufactured faux "politics" to feed the masses, too. They can keep us distracted and mesmerized with stirring canned lines like something out of a Jimmy Stewart movie (The handsome President glowered, "This may end my Presidency, but I don't care!"). Meanwhile, all the real deal-making goes on where we can't even see it.

We have been heading in that direction, for sure, but all these vapid play-by-plays and dramatic sound bites we are being fed with this debt ceiling episode strike me as a new low in "fake and creepy." It feels like we have moved into a whole new era of political theater canned for our consumption, that should frighten and enrage us.

[socialist_n_TN]

121. Well it's not just us that's feeling like that

Raul Grijalva of the Progressive Caucus said that he was afraid that they would be thrown under the bus too.

It makes sense. One thing that a lot of progressives have wanted was for Obama to show some spine. So now he's showing spine, but IN THE SERVICE OF WHAT? Only in the service of opposing the Republicans about something? That doesn't matter if it's in service of the rich capitalists and opposed to the people.

They hope we get distracted by Obama standing up to the Republicans and don't ask WHAT policies he's standing up to them about. I guess they think that they can manipulate us like they do the teabaggers.

[woo me with science]

139. +10000 Well said.

It's the new theater-for-the-masses politics and manipulative as hell. Offer a lot of staged drama and get people to fight each other and cheer blindly for "our guy" no matter what is being bargained away. The real deal is being brokered behind the curtain, and we have no input whatsoever.

But clearly, it's working.

[CrispyQ]

126. Yesterday, a DUer posted that a show on NPR was stating that

the social safety net is a much bigger portion of the US budget than the military budget. I wondered how they could claim that, so I did a little searching & found this page.

http://www.warresisters.org/pages/piechart.htm

Check out "The Government Deception" box. I'm not saying the show used this as their basis, but it is a valid example of manipulating statistics to distort reality.

Your friend is like 98% of my friends. They think watching CNN/MSNBC/network news, is getting the straight/entire story. They think I'm a political kook.

[loudsue]

177. Exactly how I saw it. How many times do we have to put up with these well-orchestrated dramas

shortly before they screw us again? SSDD. I'm so glad there are people here at DU that see through all of this. THAT is why I still love DU. There is still sanity and clear-thinking lurking .... literally lurking ... in the deep recesses of our little corner of the world.

And thanks to Scarletwoman for this thread!

K & R

[scarletwoman]

230. loudsue! I'm so delighted to see you! So glad you're still around! (speaking of lurking...)

I hope you are well! Thank you so much for your post and the rec!

:hug:
sw

[loudsue]

245. It warms my heart to see you posting, Scarletwoman.

I hope all is well with you! :hug:

[scarletwoman]

265. I feel the same about seeing you posting.

:hug: All is well, I'm just getting older and crankier. :P

sw

[loudsue]

271. I know just how you feel!

It seems like the things we have been protesting for the past 40+ years, and warning people about, have suddenly metastasized for all to see, and it is in every area. We never wanted to say "we told you so". We always wanted to avert the danger.

Yes. It's enough to make us older & crankier! :hug:

[RaleighNCDUer]

210. "What happened here was the gradual habituation of the people, little by little, to being governed

by surprise; to receiving decisions deliberated in secret; to believing that the situation was so complicated that the government had to act on information which the people could not understand, or so dangerous that, even if the people could not understand it, it could not be released because of national security."

Unfortunately, this quote is from:
Mayer, Milton (1966) <1955>. They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (2nd edition ed.). University of Chicago Press. pp. p. 166.

and it continues:

"And their sense of identification with Hitler, their trust in him, made it easier to widen this gap and reassured those who would otherwise have worried about it."

NOTE: I am NOT comparing either Obama or Boehner to Hitler - I am commenting on a style of governing built on secrecy and the abuse of trust, and the peoples' acceptance of it.

[gkhouston]

216. Complicated, my ass. For one of my jobs, I occasionally had to prepare

briefing packets to buck up to the Secretary of Defense. My boss was constantly telling me to simplify the presentations even further. Lovely. Because it's always a good idea to make decisions with less information.

[woo me with science]

270. I would like to see headlines screaming about the secrecy.

Instead, it is accepted as the new normal.

[TBF]

213. Being played is right -

and that deal will involve "entitlement" reduction - bank on it. All those payments into Social Security go straight to DOD and there's not a damned thing any one of us can about it (except resist, but I can't talk about that on this site).

[woo me with science]

269. +1 nt

[cordelia]

17. K & R

[EFerrari]

18. Yeppers.

[scarletwoman]

22. Thank you!

Happy to see you in my thread!

:hi:
sw

[Jackpine Radical]

168. Of COURSE Beth is here. It's a high-class thread.

As distinguished from an UPPER class thread, of course.

I've just been lurking my way down the posts, finding that I have nothing in particular to add to the comments you're collecting.

It's sorta like the world is aboard an airliner with dead engines, and the crew is busy keeping us entertained with movies while we go down.

[scarletwoman]

228. Wow! Your airliner analogy is frighteningly right on.

Anyway, I'm delighted to see YOU here, too! :hug:

And at least we know that our seat cushions are also flotation devices.

sw

[nc4bo]

20. Rec. nt

[dissidentboomer]

21. Me either. I'm not young and naive any more.

I've seen too much. I'm long past "yea team!" I know that most of the cuts aren't necessary. I know that bright, hard working middle class folks will be out of work directly because of unnecessary cuts. I know that some of these folks are some of the best people in government and are in positions that identify efficiencies, fraud, and ways to help government be more effective. Just what we need - less oversight! Yea team!

I know that many others will suffer needlessly because the greedy and the ignorant still got their way. Mr. President only avoided a few more casualties. Nothing changed and this will not improve the economy one jot. Simply a lot of sound and fury signifying nothing. Yea team!

I've seen this before - in '95 and '96. At least we gave blood, sweat, and tears and balanced things then but only to see it wasted by just another silly trust fund frat boy a few years later.

No, I won't pop any corks for this.

[scarletwoman]

25. I'm 61 years old. What a long strange trip it's been. I've long been shed of faith in the U.S. gov't

and any allegations of its good intentions.

sw

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[truedelphi]

225. This is "National Emergency Crisis 986" or something

the Website "tinyrevolution.com" has great article up on how the WMD thing turned out.

To whit:



Now, of course, American billionaires run the world. Here's Mort Zuckerman warning us of our terrible peril in December, 2002:

Iraq's denial that it has any weapons of mass destruction (WMD) brings to mind the old adage, "Who are you going to believe? Me, or your own eyes?" The eyes of the western world are their intelligence services, and, as Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld put it, "Any country on the face of the Earth, with an active intelligence program, knows that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction"...
####

So today we must believe that we will be forced off a cliff and made to dig our own graves (Simultaneously!!) if the national emergency of the debt ceiling is not resolved to the liking of the Uber Elite. And President Collusion is in for some more Kabuki theater. He has figured out how to make it all so entertaining and so dramatic, but in the end, it's all a game. And like George Carlin suggested, so many, many years back, you and I are not really players in these games.

Well, I just don't care. It seems like the situations that most people deal with - finding a job, or holding on to the one they have, somehow paying for insurance premiums or health care, raising kids, driving cars on increasingly frightening roads that appear as though they may crumble within days if not weeks et al -- many if not most of us realize that when the Federal Reserve gave nine to thirty trillion bucks to the banks - that is when our nation went Kablouie. The "repayment" was jsut a bunch of worthless CDO's and other derivatives. And no one in Congress cares - as they are beholden to the five or six biggest banks and not to us.

And since it is all one big money party, I hope we can change things from far far without the political side of things, because we sure as hell cannot change the situation from within the political side of things.

My Native American and wiccan friends are doing rituals that seem far more meaningful than my letters, or faxes or ph calls to those beholden to the Uber Elite.

[scarletwoman]

232. Thank you for your excellent post. I'm totally with you.

And since it is all one big money party, I hope we can change things from far far without the political side of things, because we sure as hell cannot change the situation from within the political side of things.

I truly believe this is the most crucial root lesson to be learned from this. We simply MUST move out of the trap of confining our attention to "the political side of things" if we are to salvage lives -- our lives and the lives of multitudes on this earth -- out of the current state of this world.

The Owners and the Rulers have their games to play, and we are merely spectators. Let us turn our attention to each other instead, and see what we can create in the way of meaning and mutual support.

sw

[truedelphi]

262. It's a lil late in the evening for me to do this

But here is a :toast: to you and me..

[sabrina 1]

263. Great post. I agree completely with that article, especially this:

So today we must believe that we will be forced off a cliff and made to dig our own graves (Simultaneously!!) if the national emergency of the debt ceiling is not resolved to the liking of the Uber Elite.

'to the liking of the Uber Elite'. What gets me is how many people are willing to help them do it, just because it's their party in the starring role this time.

[ljm2002]

23. I agree...

...although I must say it is gratifying to hear that President Obama showed some long, long overdue temper. What has me worried, though, is the part that he's willing to risk his Presidency over. Namely, the Grand Deal that will do things like raise the age to collect Medicare and change the cost of living index for Social Security recipients (while saying these are not "cuts", well certainly not slashes!), in exchange for tax "increases" that are really just letting taxes go back to their pre-Bush default levels.

I'm liking the fighter, but not too happy about where he's taking the fight. I wish he'd done this two years ago, and had actually fought for progressive Democratic values. As it is, I still have an uneasy feeling.

OTOH: I could be wrong, I hope I am wrong. Maybe when all is said and done we'll get the lion's share of concessions and the Republicans will take a drubbing. Hey, a girl can hope, can't she?

[scarletwoman]

27. My dear woman, you have clearly not reached my level of cynicism.

:)

I am not gratified in the least. I do not hope for anything. I am quite sure that at the end of all this drama, we, the ordinary people, will continue to be worse off.

sw

[newspeak]

239. I was so ideological back in the nineties

See, I'd been keeping track on what was going on with the Iran/Contra scandal and the BCCI investigations. Read that one of the main journalists was found dead in his motel room. It was so scary at the time. then another journalist lost his life following leads on BCCI. Believe me, North is no damn hero to this country. Anyway, I remember Poppy bush stating how he was out of the loop on the whole deal-what a laugh. Then there was the S&L scandal, where thousands of people lost their shirts, and we the people wound up paying for one of the biggest heists. Of course, our watchful media didn't report it until after Poppy was elected. You don't think the media is complicit with these hucksters?

When Clinton was elected, I was elated. I felt now we will get an investigation into what happened with BCCI, Iran-Contra and drugs being put on our streets by the main players. But nothing happened. Poppy was also floating NAFTA before he left office, and that was another reason I wanted Clinton in-to stop NAFTA. I remember when Clinton came on TV after signing the agreement and stating that we were now going to be the service industry of the world. How's that working out?

I believe that "the truth shall set you free." It's just a matter of time when the majority of the people will no longer be satisfied being entertained by reality bogus TV or listening to the corporate sponsored blowhards feeding them their daily dose of propaganda. Studs Terkel stated he had faith in the american people, and that statement keeps me hoping that the american people will finally realize they've been played in the worst way.

[socialist_n_TN]

128. "I'm liking the fighter, but not too happy about where he's

taking the fight." THAT'S it in a nutshell. As I said above (I came late to the thread and hadn't read your reply), it feels like he's just fighting to show progressives that he CAN fight. The policies he's fighting over are NOT ours. That's why I'm feeling like they're trying to manipulate us, like the other side does the teabaggers.

[KoKo]

159. +!

[Divernan]

203. You may end up the last person still shoveling through the shit looking for a pony.

Optimists are lovely people. I used to be one!
My faith in Obama did not die quickly. - It was a long, slow, painful process, following those 5 stages of Elizabeth Kubler-Ross in dealing with death or catastrophic loss.

Denial: This can't be happening. I remember all his campaign promises. He would never (fill in the blank)

Anger: What the hell is going on? He didn't even fight for (fill in the blank)


Bargaining: If I just keep supporting him, and defending him, he'll eventually reveal some grand strategy which will make everything right.

Depression: Face it! He only said what he needed to say to get nominated and elected. He never meant it. How could I have been such a dupe?

Acceptance: No matter how many phone calls to the White House, or how many petitions I sign, or how many letters to the editor I write, I can't counter the influence on him of Wall Street, Big Pharma, the MIC, etc. I'll turn my efforts to my Congressman and Senators, and state politicians

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[scarletwoman]

29. How am defeating myself?

Personally, I see it as a useful tool in defeating illusion.

Buddhism teaches that clinging to desire is the root of suffering. It is desire that inspires hope and fear. To let go of hope is to take a step toward freedom from suffering.

sw

[KittyWampus]

149. Cynicism is a self defeating philosophy. You're welcome to it. It's self defeating

because your primary tactic is to call into question all motives from the outset rather than expecting and working towards the best possible outcome.

And here's a quote from Buddha "the Mind is everything. What we think, we become".

You want to be Cynical? Fine, then your world will feed that Cynicism. In other words, Cynicism is self-defeating.

[scarletwoman]

233. I believe you're confusing cynicism with nihilism. It is precisely because I'm NOT a nihilist that

I write posts such as my OP.

I am not the least bit defeated or defeatist. If I were I wouldn't try anymore. As you can see, I am still here still making the effort, the same effort I've been making on DU for 10 years.

It's also the same effort I've been making since my civil rights marching, my peace-marching, my sex, drugs, rock'n'rolling youth (born in 1949).

If I were defeated I wouldn't be here annoying you. :D

sw

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KittyWampus]

32. My powers of observation are fairly good. And while I'd call my self a Stoic,

I have a soft spot for Pragmatism.

[TBF]

212. I'd call it a blind spot, but that's just imo .... nt

[Forkboy]

224. +1

[Faryn Balyncd]

31. agreed

[Poll_Blind]

34. I don't trust the President.

I don't trust the President. It's a different kind of mistrust than what I had for Bush. I didn't trust Bush at all and if I did trust him, it was to always fuck everything up the worst. With Obama, this medical marijuana thing is typical of the kind of behavior he exhibits which I don't like and which really bugs me: Sometimes he says things and he means them. Sometimes he says things and it's pretty obvious through his actions that he has no intention of backing those things up with action.

Although Pelosi disputes the story circulating, even if it is/was true, it's not like he got snippy because he didn't want Social Security cuts on the bargaining table. No, he's cool with that. Said it on TV a bunch of times, and recently.

So I don't get what great victory this is supposed to be. This is the president being snippy. Great. I mean, in and of itself, that's good for the President to be- and this time, it was with the Republicans, even! But I don't see any of the metrics of the deal he's willing to accept, changing.

PB

[dissidentboomer]

39. I always had the same feeling with clinton (bill) but,

while obama is smart, I think clinton is border line genius. He just didn't always have the national interest in mind, as president.

[scarletwoman]

40. I'm tired of "the story", whatever the hell it is on any particular day.

"The story" is meaningless. "The story" isn't the truth, no matter what "the story" is.

They are using "the story" to distract us from reality.

sw

[NotThisTime]

35. I'm so over it all I can barely care anymore, I'm just tired..

I am literally sick and literally tired and I just say screw it, I really cannot take anymore... I'm one of those people who have a pre-existing declining health situation and I just say to hell with it. I wonder why I continue treatment, to what end, the only end I see isn't a bright one...

[scarletwoman]

44. It's a matter of looking outside of partisan politics for solutions.

Despair is inverted hope, and a drain on the spirit. There is no hope that the Political Class is going to make our lives better, they're incapable of it.

Freeing ourselves of feeling dependent on them is the first step toward finding real solutions.

sw

[NotThisTime]

49. That sounds like relying on oneself to pull themselves up by their boot straps regardless....

somehow we are trapped in this quagmire of political rhetoric that seemingly gets us deeper into the ditch while the country goes to hell.

While I'm at it, I'd like a real solution from my doctors, healthcare or not, there are no good answers and while treatment continues I am left to wonder for how long. I think it's all taken its toll.... That's a different topic, I'm sorry, it does play into my thoughts after listening to grown men act like children however :( In regards to that, you are absolutely right, the despair in inverted hope and has certainly drained my spirit...

[scarletwoman]

51. My apologies. I did not mean it to sound that way.

It was in a different reply on this thread that I said we need to be working with our fellow citizens in order to find solutions. I ought to have said that in my reply to you as well.

We need each other to survive. The thing is, I think that the Political Class is inimical to our survival, and the sooner we stop hoping that we can rely on them, the sooner we can get down to our own collective creativity on building a better country for ourselves.

Compassion has not yet been completely bred out of human beings. May you find the help you need.

sw

[MuseRider]

57. "We need each other to survive."

Yes.

There is much compassion still out there.

[socialist_n_TN]

135. Well, I think that the idea is not to give up, but

to look for extra electoral remedies. Electoral politics are not getting us ANYWHERE. We see that when they ignore the LARGE majorities who hold "leftish" positions on issues. We see that when the Greek PM says that capitalism is more important than democracy. We see that when the RW doesn't even pay lip service to democracy.

And it's not about you personally being at the barricades and out in the streets when it comes to that. And it will. What it's about is EVERYBODY (the rest of us) doing what you CAN to resist. If it's the barricades, great. But it might be joining in on a payment strike. Or setting up a worker's council where you work. Or helping arm a worker's militia for self defense against the fascists. Whatever you can do to resist, DO IT. You'll know it when the opportunity comes to resist. Take the opportunity.

[Faryn Balyncd]

37. Let's see the President make that kind of stand in DEFENCE of SS & Medicare.

...and stick to his guns.


The "Grand Deal" the GOP rejected was (and remains) a horrible deal for SS, Medicare, and all Americans.


It's kabuki theater with a battle between Bad and Badder.

[scarletwoman]

41. Won't hold my breath. (nt)

[Faryn Balyncd]

42. I won't either.

[DevonRex]

38. Seems to me that a lot of people believe all the msm bad news

but nothing good about Obama. Not saying that's how you are tho.

[dissidentboomer]

43. I'd rather have him in power than have a repub' in power. I just

wish he had a demo'/liberal and somewhat nationalist (DOES NOT MEAN nation building adventurist but does mean anti-free trade, jobs at home for citizens) congress to work with.

[Name removed]

91. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[woo me with science]

104. This seems to me exactly what is going on. .

At least with a Republican in the White House, we unite as a coherent opposition. With a faux Democrat, there will always be a group that will support anything as long as it comes with a (D) after the name.

We have seen an escalation of the outrages since Obama came into office. They are accomplishing things they could not have dreamed of with a united Democratic opposition.

[MuseRider]

45. Thank you for saying this.

I feel the same, no trust at all that the final outcome will be for the good of the majority of the people and it will be especially hard on those that need help the most.

I had no faith in Obama and so far he is doing exactly what I was afraid he would do. Still I hoped he would prove me wrong. I would have gladly eaten the crow served cold and apologized to those I fought with over his mantra of hope and change. I wanted him to be better than I was afraid he would be.

I have to admit to a little lift, simply because of the "stories" of his standing up to the whiny baby teabaggers and nasty Republicans (as if we are any better anymore in our white hats), making them fear for once in this long journey but in the back of my mind I take little from that except a small lift. It is theater. I am getting too old to believe in fairy tales cloaked in glitter and rainbows. It is all too My Little Unicorn for me.

Still, a tiny spark of hope against all my better judgement. That is all I can muster anymore.

[scarletwoman]

48. Where are the details of the "Grand Bargain"? We are kept in the dark about the details

of these "negotiations".

This is all bullshit.

[MuseRider]

50. It is always all bullshit.

Sadly we swallow it whole and thank them for not beating us with sticks after we whine about the outcome. This is not what it is supposed to be. WE are the bosses here and they are doing it all behind our backs. Someone above nailed it when he or she said they will present us something at the last minute, WHEW, must be passed now. Tomorrow is too late. Oh yes, sorry but we cut you all back to subsistence for the good of the weathy "who provide you with jobs" or some such horseshit....if we even get that.

We are in the dark but LOOK, Obama lit up Cantor followed by pictures of him punching or kicking someone! Whoo baby, he is really presidentin' now!

[scarletwoman]

53. "Whoo baby, he is really presidentin' now!" I'm SO with you!

Beautifully said!

"Someone above nailed it when he or she said they will present us something at the last minute, WHEW, must be passed now. Tomorrow is too late." Exactly.

And yet so many are ready to fall for exactly that.

sw

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[scarletwoman]

63. Please. Don't turn this into a sex thread!

"moist with hopefulness!"

:spank:

[socialist_n_TN]

137. It would get more hits sw........

:rofl:

[Bluebear]

72. And he's not yielding on this!!!1

Whatever "this" is, or does it matter? :)

[pecwae]

97. Take something for those vapors wilya?nt

[bvar22]

117. Whoo baby, he is really presidentin' now!

Nailed It!

Completely transparent and pathetic.

We don't KNOW what all the details are,
but we DO know that Social Security and Medicare have been reduced to Bargaining Chips.
We have been prepped for the Bad News.

What once was sacred is sacred no more.
The Rubicon has been crossed.

And supposedly informed & educated people are cheering.

[MuseRider]

170. I think we can relax now bvar,

I read this morning that he does not care if it means that he loses his job, HE IS TAKING IT TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE! Yay us! He does love us! What spine.

God almighty, THIS is what plays for a good political move these days? We are in the mix. Wow. Now this is what happens when you get a constitutional scholar as your president. I feel so blessed.

"And supposedly informed & educated people are cheering." Yes. At first I cut them some slack because the relief after the Bush** maladministration left was palpable, even for me. At this late date the rock star has faded and our purpose should be to make our needs and wishes known and letting them know where they are going to stand if they screw us against our will. The cheering is getting very old.

[Divernan]

206. It's the reverse.Americans have been taking it to their Congressmen/Senators who are taking it to

Obama. He's not used to so many people fighting back. He evidently has fixated on making some change re those tax loopholes/extensions. I've seen no sign he's taking SS/Medicare off the table. And really he CANNOT take them off the table. Even if this particular brouhaha is settled with a pure extension of the debt ceiling, the GOP has smelled the blood, the red meat, that for the first time a Democratic president is ready, willing and able to chop up Social Security and Medicare. Obama rang the bell signalling SS/Medicare are open to attack, and neither he nor his most ardent supporters can unring it. (Not that I think Obama has any interest in unringing it.) As a lawyer, Obama is well aware of this phenomenon.

THE BELL ONCE RUNG CANNOT BE UNRUNG.

"Unring the bell" is a good analogy which can save a lot of words in making the point. That phrase originated in Sandez v. United States <1956>, and was elaborated on in Dunn v. United States, which added other pertinent analogies. "After the thrust of the saber it is difficult to forget the wound," was another, and then the most colorful one of all, "If you throw a skunk into the jury box, you can't instruct the jury not to smell it." In the present case there was no skunk thrown in the jury box.

[rhett o rick]

193. To badly paraphrase some above, "getting hit 10 times with a stick is better than getting hit 20

times. We should feel luck." I say, fuk that shit. Excuse my english.

The Revolution is Waiting

[FirstLight]

54. +100

I am not an Obama Basher, mostly because I know that if I say I am upset at his efforts I will be eaten alive here by the ever-faithful

That said, i don;t have a good feeling about this either. It's not about the theater (though, ya, I'd like to see our POTUS get fired up and kick some ass...thought that's what we elected him for!)
It all comes down to the nuts & bolts at the end of this, and what gets signed
meanwhile it's about as much fun to watch as a cockfight

The bottom line is that WE aren't going to feel any better, or get any more help, WE are on our own...have been for quite some time.
Default will make the worst happen faster, and maybe give the freaks who thrive on chaos some benefit
But nowhere are we hearing that war spending is on the chopping block, or that tax cuts are being repealed...
so it is all just a fucking shell game

I'd like to think our Pres has our best interests at heart, but i think he is just trying to manage the bleeding at this point...and the corporate overlords have bought and paid for the running of this country into the ground for decades...

[scarletwoman]

60. "I'd like to think our Pres has our best interests at heart..." I'm sure he wants us to be placated.

I'm not so sure it's in our best interests to BE placated.

sw

[HaroldHecuba]

56. Obama knows what he is doing. Larry O'Donnell had it right...super rope a dope.

I loved the earlier phrase from a Du'er. Mitch McConnell had the cigar blow up in his face today!

[scarletwoman]

58. Yeah. Obama's the Great and Powerful Oz, alright. (nt)

[MuseRider]

59. Yes Obama knows what he is doing

but the problem is, we do not. So far what he has done has not been so damned great. We should not be waiting for the result to come as our bedtime story. We should be the majority of the discussion. It should be for us. Wanna bet where the cuts are going to come from?

[Divernan]

208. Harold Hecuba has been tombstoned

[Mnemosyne]

62. Hear, hear... K&R n/t

[scarletwoman]

64. Thank you!

[The Magistrate]

65. Such Reservation Is Wise, Ma'am

It may not be quite so orderly a theatrical exercise as usual, though, this time. the presence of a sizeable 'nihilist caucus', people who really think that ruining the credit of the country is a good thing to do is a new factor, not normal to our political life.

[scarletwoman]

66. Still, let us remember that those who may best poised to take advantage of chaos are

not necessarily going to do so to *our* advantage.

Lovely to see you, old friend. Thank you for being here, in all possible senses of that phrase.

sw

[The Magistrate]

67. Absolutely, Ma'am

We are long reduced here to picking sides in faction fights among the nobility; one or another may prove better for the people at large by some small margin, but not because they are with the people. But pure wreckers are new, and dangerous to everybody.

[scarletwoman]

69. The "pure wreckers" are simply another species of unforseen consequence.

For some crazy reason, what's popped into my head is this line from "Jurassic Park": "Life will find a way."

Which may, or may not, make sense.

sw

[The Magistrate]

70. True Enough, Ma'am: The Nabobs Who Created Them Did Not Appreciate The Possibilities....

It is dangerous to mobilize stupidity in the expectation you will be able to control the herd you madden.

[scarletwoman]

75. I wish for us to also be "maddened", just not stupidly. I don't want to be controlled, either.

Which is why I hold little esteem for the Political Class, whatever color jersey they wear.

I do understand the value of looking to mitigate damage, and will always counsel for that. At the same time, as I said in my OP, I find it most prudent not to get emotionally carried away into placing bets on a game in which I have absolutely no power to effect the outcome -- the outcome of which will most likely be of no great benefit to me no matter which horse wins.

sw

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

68. This political pissing contest has no winners. But, the losers, as usual, are the people.

We are the pawns in this game. Both sides have no hesitations with pissing on us and then claiming that it will warm our backs.

Then they will be amazed that fewer people vote after their great endeavors to screw us for our own good.

"History has tried to teach us that we can't have good government under politicians.  Now, to go and stick one at the very head of government couldn’t be wise." - Mark Twain

[suffragette]

71. Thank you for writing this.

Feeling the same way.

Many details about the behavior, but all too few about the substance of the bargains.

[scarletwoman]

76. Thank you. Very good point!

"Many details about the behavior, but all too few about the substance of the bargains."

Well said!

sw

[chill_wind]

73. I'd agree.

The exhuberence by those who think this is done seems a tad premature. Hard to tell how much of that is genuine and based on something much more than what Lawrence O'Donnell has offered up, and how much of it is a certain (privately worried) braggadocio.

I'm one who'll be very surprised if there are not entitlement cuts. SS Cola cuts at a minimum.

[scarletwoman]

78. Thank you. Funny, isn't it? We don't even know what exactly we're cheering for!

What's IN the deal that Obama is "fighting" for?

[sabrina 1]

74. I feel detached from it to be honest.

It's like watching a bunch of kindergarten students fighting over who gets the biggest cookie.

At least those fights are sincere and you know what they are fighting over AND they can't take anything away from you.

I know one thing, every time this happens, the people lose a little more. The Govt is supposed to be about the people, but watching DC antics, I feel like we're just looking in a window as two teams engage in a battle to see who will win the prize and it has nothing much to do with us. Whoever wins, and winning means taking more away from the people and giving it to those who run the show, will get the donations to keep them in their jobs for a while longer.

Meantime history is being made around the world and I do have hope that things are about to change, that the Globalists went too far, and that is why there is so much desperation. It isn't about the people, it is about trying to save what they have been pilfering from every country in the world for decades before the people turn on them.

And the people are turning on them. I am sure there is a great deal we do not know.

[scarletwoman]

79. "I know one thing, every time this happens, the people lose a little more." Exactly.

Yes, there's a great deal we do not know. And there's a reason we aren't being told what that is.

Thanks for your input!

sw

[chill_wind]

80. Such good points. We can't even call it kabuki at this point, IMO.

More like some cross between Jerry Springer and fake pageantry wrestling, maybe.
They think we can be sufficed with occasional "red meat" entertainment. Only some are that easily enthralled.

[newspeak]

234. which reminds me of a scene in the movie "Gladiator"

when the new emperor, after murdering his father, says give the plebes entertainment that will detract them from what we are doing.

[scarletwoman]

236. It's a venerable tactic that the Ruling Class has used forever. The question is,

when are we plebes going to stop falling for it?

sw

[myrna minx]

109. Very good points. n/t

[newspeak]

242. my MIL watches local Faux station

and it was quite refreshing to hear some callers state raise the damn taxes, they've not created jobs, leave SS alone. I mean these were callers on Faux.

[JDPriestly]

77. K&R

[Pooka Fey]

81. K&R

[Raksha]

82. K & R - You expressed what I'm feeling better than I could.

Not that it makes me very happy. But I too refuse to get distracted by the show. I'm only interested in the outcome, and I don't have any great hopes about that. It's going to be one more fabricated "inevitability," and I'll end up losing more ground than I have already. And so will everyone else.

[sendero]

83. Well.

.... what is rumored is exactly what Obama SHOULD do, but I share your skepticism to a degree.

[NNN0LHI]

84. The job of President Obama is not to make you "get all tingly over"

His job is to get reelected and keep the rapture ready Republicans out of the White House.

So if you have been looking for someone to make you "get all tingly over", may want to look elsewhere?

Don

[scarletwoman]

95. Dear Don, we go back a long way on this board. I have to ask, did you read past the subject line?

Because "get all tingly over" was the opening phrase of a sentence that continued in the body of the post, including the actual object of the phrase - which was an action, not a person.

I am fine with your disagreeing with me, as long as it's not due to misinterpretation.

Peace,
sw

[NNN0LHI]

96. It was due to misinterpretation of your post on my part and I apologize

I have no excuses. Just an honest apology.

Sorry about that.

Thanks for being so kind about it too.

:hi:

Don

[scarletwoman]

227. No need to apologize! I just really didn't want to be out of your good graces after all these years.

You were one of the first people I ever exchanged PMs with on DU, and I've never stopped feeling fond of you. I know our opinions do sometimes diverge, but I've always wanted to maintain good relations between us.

Thank you for your very kind and generous reply. I have always held you in high regard.

:hug:
sw

[bvar22]

118. "His job is to get re-elected" ??? WTF

His JOB is to advance traditional Democratic Party Values,
and undo the damage of the last Republican administration,
and he ain't doing that.
Ironically enough, if he were doing his job that the Democratic Party elected him to do,
his re-election would be assured.

"I've seen it happen time after time. When the Democratic candidate allows himself to be put on the defensive and starts apologizing for the New Deal and the Fair Deal, and says he really doesn't believe in them, he is sure to lose. The people don't want a phony Democrat. If it's a choice between a genuine Republican, and a Republican in Democratic clothing, the people will choose the genuine article, every time; that is, they will take a Republican before they will a phony Democrat, and I don't want any phony Democratic candidates in this campaign."
---President Harry Truman

QED:2010


Ask LBJ and Harry Truman if their "JOB" was to "get re-elected."


"If we don't fight hard enough for the things we stand for,
at some point we have to recognize that we don't really stand for them."
--- Paul Wellstone

[NNN0LHI]

124. Hard to advance traditional Democratic Party Values with a rapture ready GOP president in the WH

Did I have to say that?

Don

[bvar22]

165. Do I have to say THIS....again?

"When the Democratic candidate allows himself to be put on the defensive and starts apologizing for the New Deal and the Fair Deal, and says he really doesn't believe in them, he is sure to lose. The people don't want a phony Democrat. If it's a choice between a genuine Republican, and a Republican in Democratic clothing, the people will choose the genuine article, every time"---Harry Truman

QED: 2010

How is giving the Republicans everything they want a winning strategy?
(O'Donnell tried to make this argument on Monday)

And if it works, what have we WON? :shrug:



Who will STAND and FIGHT for THIS American Majority?
You will know them by their WORKS,
not by their excuses.

[NNN0LHI]

248. You don't understand what we gain by having a Dem in the WH rather than a rapture ready Republican?

Here let me try to explain this to you.

You don't seem to mind that we could again end up with some religious zealot as our president who actually believes that the earth is 6000 years old and humans shared the earth with dinosaurs. And that the rapture is coming soon and that is a great thing.

Hell, maybe you believe that nonsense too for all I know?

Well I don't. And I don't want to have any person who believes that nonsense running this country ever again. Its damn important to me that we never have another rapture ready president like Bush in the WH. Not so much for me as my life is winding down now. More for mine and everyone else's children and grandchildren whose very lives could depend on never having another wackadoodle like Bush or worse running this country again.

So, there you go.

Don

[WillyT]

85. K & R !!!

:kick:

[tomp]

86. k&r. two quotes:

"If voting made a difference it would be illegal."--Phillip Berrigan

"The corporate coup is complete."--Chris Hedges.

All the rest is theater.

[kentuck]

89. kick

good post!

[inna]

90. thank you, sw.

[scarletwoman]

238. Thank you, inna, for being here! Here on this thread and here on DU!

:hug:

[inna]

267. .

:hug:

and you just so made my day/night/week, you have no idea! :loveya:

[MissDeeds]

92. Well said

Much of what we're being told is information warfare. I choose to follow my old cultural anthropology professor's advice, "question everything, doubt nothing".

K&R

[xchrom]

93. indeed. nt

[Warren Stupidity]

94. Yeah it is pretty clear that the peasants are not part of the process.

[JHB]

98. +10

In the end, it's the actions that count.

[Ganja Ninja]

99. Exactly.

We need to wait and see who gets their ass kicked.

[JTFrog]

100. Fuck Yeah! Beat that enthusiasm into the ground.

We don't need that shit here.

Let's give the momentum to the Pukes who want to fucking destroy anything and everything they can get their greedy paws on. :eyes:

[scarletwoman]

241. I'm asking people to think about what exactly has merited their enthusiasm.

This ought not to be a problem for free and rational minds.

sw

[JoePhilly]

101. Right ... because "3rd hand quotes about Obama " should only be used to maufacture outrage!!!!

:sarcasm:

[Bluenorthwest]

127. In politics, it is consent that is most often manufactured

nt

[woo me with science]

154. Spot on. nt

[JoePhilly]

196. Oh, fortune cookies. I love those.

On DU, an anonymous source is like a GOD if that source disparages Obama.

But an anoymous source who says anything positive about Obama is a Dog.

Me, I'm anti-knee jerk.

My question to you ... for the last 2 weeks, we've had endless threads about how Obama was definitely going to cut Social Security ... ALL based on unnamed sources.

Now that such an outcome appears far less likely, where are those threads?

[Brickbat]

103. I agree. When people are getting excited and high-fiving over Obama reportedly getting annoyed at a

meeting over the raising the short-term debt ceiling, I just want to drink. Seriously? Raising the short-term debt ceiling? That's the best we can rally around and get fired up over?

[TBF]

105. No matter what they do we pay for it -

and we pay for it over and over again with interest.

In terms of watching theater it's nice to have Obama proclaim he has a spine - but is raising the debt ceiling really the best idea? Why not tax the rich and cut defense? Those 2 moves alone could wipe out much of the deficit (particularly if we stopped all the war mongering).

[Erose999]

106. Rec'd. I wouldn't trust the President to take my order at Mickey D's. He'd shortchange me

and give the amount I was shortchanged to Boehner or McConnell.

[Puglover]

107. Great Op SW.

I feel pretty much the same. I feel like we are being played and I don't like it one bit. Even the fucking reason for the Kabuki has no bearing on the real problems out here. It makes me feel helpless and frustrated.

[woo me with science]

110. +1

I am even angrier watching the responses. People are cheering his "spine" and quivering with joy over dramatic quotes like "This may bring down my Presidency, but I will not yield!"

Nobody notices that he is defending his fucking "big deal" full of spending cuts and trimmed benefits. Everyone is paying attention to theater and not substance, ...and that is exactly how this entire disgusting charade has been designed.

Give the masses some good theater. Meanwhile, all the real deal-making goes on behind closed doors, where we can't participate. And it will all be passed before the deadline, because it is an "emergency."

I am with you. I am angry and disgusted and demoralized beyond words.

[eilen]

223. Yeah, and it is the same people who are all so offended

by Jane Hamsher calling them dumb m-fers.

[scarletwoman]

243. Thank you much! (nt)

[salin]

108. Bravo, SW!

I barely have the energy to read the latest updates on this - so very depressing.

Great OP, and some interesting side discussions to read down thread. Thanks for giving these words to this sad sense of melancholy I feel surrounding the political sparring, score keeping, etc. We lose. Again. And more than ever it is clear that this is not the politics of pragmatism this is the politics of a corporatism - with one side hijacked to the right by the screaming memeies that they created going for broke dragging wanting to pull us down cliff a, but the distraction of the scuffle obscures that we were already sliding down cliff b.

Sigh

[scarletwoman]

244. I'm so glad you found your way here. Thank you for your trenchent post, too.

I'm working my way through reading every post on this thread -- you are so right, there are some wonderful side discussions here!

And more than ever it is clear that this is not the politics of pragmatism this is the politics of a corporatism...

It cannot be said more clearly than that. :applause:

sw

[fascisthunter]

111. This is where I am at as well

the he said she said shit to make us feel better about this issue is a little beyond ridiculous.

[PoliticAverse]

112. Skepticism is good. Wait for an actual debt limit bill to support or oppose. n/t

[Art_from_Ark]

113. Here's a picture of the discussions

Obama is the one in the middle, in the bright red top. Boehner is to Obama's right (the viewer's left). Cantor is the little guy just in front of Obama.

[JuniperLea]

132. And here is DU...

Or that's what we're being led to believe anyway.

[Fire1]

138. One picture is worth a thousand words. n/t

[tomg]

211. And the four in the back

are the corporate overlords who are really directing it all.

[Art_from_Ark]

264. And while the corporate overlords are directing the action

Nancy Pelosi, the only female in the production, is wondering what to make of it all, while McConnell is posturing on the far right.

[scarletwoman]

246. LOL!

[ProSense]

114. Well,

I'm not going to get "all tingly over" OPs that don't get "all tingly over" "3rd hand quotes about Obama going all kick-ass or whatever."

"On the contrary, I'm quite certain that things will continue to get worse for the ordinary people of this country."

So it doesn't matter what deal is passed, does it?

[neoralme]

155. Nope. It does not. This is a big show, now enhanced by McConnell's

trick that Obama knew was coming to give him an out, where he can cut entitlements with equanimity.

[Bobbie Jo]

115. Michelle Bachman agrees with you.

That this crisis is "made up." Apparently teabaggers are in full agreement.

[JuniperLea]

130. I heard that Moody's is looking at our rating...

And issuing warnings to those who hold the national pursestrings... but no, all that August 2nd crap is made up, a date pulled out of Obama's ass.

[socialist_n_TN]

140. Maybe we can bribe Moody's and get that rating

that AIG got right before the shit hit the fan in '08.

[JuniperLea]

145. Yep...

Sickening that their word means anything... but it does. Traders and investors still use those ratings.

[KoKo]

166. Exactly...and Warren Buffet owns Moody's he has other investments he

protects. Even though he's for tax increases on the wealthy...he is still a businessman with a lot to lose and so he can do a bit of "Hair on Fire" (DEFAULT!) like Paulson did about the Financial Meltdown...and win both ways.

[scarletwoman]

247. Are you calling me a teabagger?

:rofl:

[Octafish]

116. Deeds, not Words.

No offense to the "If you're not with us, you're against us" crowd.

So far, the actions have not matched the rhetoric:
Wall Street got theirs.
The Pentagon got theirs.
Department of Justice still staffed by Karl Rove appointees.
Whistleblowers jailed for telling the truth.
Tax cheats forgotten.
No New Deal for 21st Century.
Social Security and Medicare are still on the table, no one knows whatever happened to Medicaid.
Lots more...

And Secret Government still trumps peace.

[rosesaylavee]

198. agreed.

[bvar22]

120. Aside from all that,

Are you enjoying the Theater?
I am amazed at how well Choreographed it is,
and the Timing has been precise.

That bit yesterday about Seniors "NOT getting ANY check at ALL" was brilliant.
NOW, many will be happy to get one with JUST a 15% cut.
Pure Machiavelli.
"Thank GAWD it passed!!!"

Unfortunately, I've seen this play before,
and it doesn't end well for the Working Class, the Retired, and the Poor.

Cherish your memories, SUCKER!
because we're TAKING everything else!
Hahahahahahaha!

[KoKo]

167. Yes...the Seniors not getting paychecks was the clincher for me that this was Kabuki...

Make the Debt Ceiling about Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid....and take the heat off why we have to raise the Debt Ceiling at all. Forget about real tax increases because Obama said Monday that any increases will be loopholes and they won't go into effect until 2013. (I posted the transcript of his Presser and that's where the quote come from) I was pissed off after the Presser and I'm more pissed off to see "OMG...SENIORS WONT GET THEIR CHECKS!!!! HAIR ON FIRE!"

Great Porker pix, btw....! Fits my mood these days.

[chill_wind]

174. Oh Bvar- eat your peas and be **grateful**. "It could have been so much WORSE!"

Bwawck!!

I said days ago I think we are being softened up. THAT's the real rope-a-dope.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=439&topic_id=1473508

And somehow, in the upside down universe that is DU, after the ink dries, I expect that the same people who insisted all the talk about cuts was fiction will be trying to tell us in the end somehow Bernie Sanders was the traitor and villain.

[rosesaylavee]

199. I wish their costumes were a bit more realistic tho.

And the sets... meh, I've seen better.

[LynneSin]

122. Why - DU tends to believe all the other 3rd hand quotes from Obama

:eyes:

I guess because it's not a negative 3rd hand quote, the type that some DUers get all goose-pimply over, that we should just disregard it.

[JuniperLea]

129. DOH!

Damn... yep!

[Fire1]

141. You noticed it too? Disgusting. n/t

[LynneSin]

146. Yep

I think folks on either side of the Obama love/hate fest should hold suspect anything they haven't officially heard from Barack Obama or one of his closest allies (like Joe Biden or Hillary Clinton)

[Dawgs]

150. Difference is that this third hand quote doesn't effect anything.

The third hand quote where Obama is willing to raise the Medicare age to 67 does.

[LynneSin]

151. If the quote is right and not something floated out there to get progressives pissed at Obama

Remember until about a month ago it was the GOP looking pretty bad with voting for the Paul Ryan budget that would axe medicaid (or was it medicare - I forget).

Obama is a chess player - he's got the next 5 moves already planned so personally, I try not to buy into any of the hype positive or negative unless it officially comes from him or someone named who has direct association with him.

The media is too manipulated to believe any 'unnamed source'.

HOWEVER...

that doesn't mean we should just ignore it - I still called my elected officials and demanded that medicare not be touched.

[Vattel]

205. more cow bell please

[JuniperLea]

125. I can agree to a point...

I'm always one of the first to say I'm not going to get excited when I hear opening salvos such as 'he plans on, he intends to, he wants to, he's getting ready to' etc. So no, I don't get all tingly based on hypothetical statements and multi-generational hearsay.

I'm about the end game, what actually happens, and the discussion of same.

That said, I AM getting excited! Sure it's grand theatre, but boy howdy we're at the chase scene now! This gets me giddy and on the edge of my seat as much as the chase scene in the French Connection! Classic! Protagonists, antagonists, and the plots and characters change so quickly! Dare I say it? It's making my heart beat like when Dirty Harry held his 45 to the temple of his perp and said, "Well, do you feel lucky... punk?"

I'm basing this on what I've seen, bandaids, peas and all. Actual words uttered and guttural retorts that ensued.

The kitchen sink on the table, all the cards face up...

[scarletwoman]

254. Thank you for your forthright and honest comment, JuniperLea.

We do not agree, at the same time I can fully appreciate the passion in what you've written.

We are looking at these things from very different points of view. I do understand yours even if I don't share it.

Thank you again for adding your voice to this discussion.

sw

[Bluenorthwest]

131. The result is everything for us

The process is everything for those in the Beltway. Anyone getting all hopped up over that which is not yet done is also more interested in the petty process than the vitally important results.

[Zorra]

133. Your OP probably sums up

the general opinion of the majority of progressives. It does mine.

"The best way to fight evil is to make energetic progress in the good"

I like that.
:-)

[LynneSin]

134. So as long as the third hand news is negative about Obama - you're ok with it

Just dont' send any of that positive news from Obama because god forbid we don't want to look like idiots believing everything that 'sources', 'white-house aide', 'party-insider' and any other anonymous source has to say.

I'm just pointing out the obvious

[Fire1]

142. +100,000. n/t

[Zorra]

178. No, actually, it was refreshing to see the President take a stand against

the republicans.

The key sentence in scarletwoman's OP for me is, "I do not even -- at this point, after all that's come before -- have any trust in giving into "hope" that things are going to turn out okay."

OK. We had a large Dem majority in Congress. We had a Dem WH.

We could have gotten another New Deal, something our country desperately needed and still needs. Instead, we got a health care legislation that is making insurance companies even wealthier, more war, more laissez-faire economics (and the natural rise in unemployment that accompanies laissez-faire economics), a destructive tax cut extension for the wealthiest people on the planet, etc, and as a result, we got John Boehner too.

All we heard were vague, lame excuses, and outright bullshit reasons, for why our huge Democratic majority and Dem WH did not vigorously pursue, and enact, the necessary progressive solutions to critical problems. We ended up with basically the same conservative voodoo policies that got our country into this huge mess in the first place.

And, for the first time in history, we have a Democratic president seeming to start to lead us down the path that may someday lead our Democratic Party Sacred Cows, Social Security and Medicare, to the slaughterhouse.

So please forgive me for being so skeptical. I have this terrible habit of learning by experience. It has never seemed like a good idea to repeat the same mistakes over and over and expect a different result.

Talk is cheap. Show me the love.

I'm still planning to vote for Obama. I hope, due to future positive events, that I feel good, and righteous, about it when I vote for him.

Yeah, it really was nice to see the President standing up to the republicans.

peace

[EFerrari]

184. Most people don't have sudden personality changes in their mid 40s. n/t

[Akoto]

136. Obama's diplomatic? He has no spine! Obama's being tough? Not believin' it! That's DU. n/t

[JuniperLea]

156. A couple of years ago we were saying that about the GOP...

He's doing too much! He's doing too little! He doesn't talk enough! He's talking too much! He's not given us anything! He's given us too much! He hasn't spent enough! He's spent too much!

Same dance routine, different dancers.

[Hotler]

143. k&r I have no hope. I see no future. n/t

[lumberjack_jeff]

144. K&R. n/t

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

148. I want something that's going to fix the actual problem

Not necessarily what either party wants.

[JuniperLea]

157. Me too...

The country shouldn't be run solely on the word of any one party... we did that for 8 years and look where it got us.

So few can see pragmatism as the right thing to do... yet it is so very democratic.

[firehorse]

152. more political theater

[Frisbee]

153. Yup, what you said.

And I am about to puke over all the post praising Obama as our savior and some sort of super hero because of this. Give me a break. I no longer have confidence in EITHER side to do the right thing, and am presently surprised on the rare occasions that they do. And while we are being told that Obama is (finally) playing hardball with the repukes, I still expect him to eventually fold in some way or another. It's not that I am an Obama hater, it is just what I have been conditioned to expect. Go ahead Mr. President, please prove me wrong.

[neoralme]

158. I got somewhat optimistic yesterday, but I realize it is probably all

theatrics to make Obama's entitlements cuts appear more like it was no one's fault.

[scarletwoman]

256. "Mistakes were made."

[neoralme]

266. Yes. I too remember his 2006 mistake in voting against raising the

debt ceiling. It was okay for him then, but not Republicans now? Good find.

[woo me with science]

160. All the infighting is part of the game.

It is being purposely stoked with the dramatic sound bites we are being fed from the faux negotiations. Those cheering are being used and can't see it.

We are losing more under a Democratic President than they ever could have accomplished with a Republican President and a united Democratic opposition.

[Javaman]

161. Old African saying...

when to elephants fight only the grass suffers.

[scarletwoman]

257. Ah! Thank you! I was SO trying to think of that saying last night!

I'd heard that saying before, a long time ago, and I really wanted to include it in my post. My old brain failed me, I just couldn't remember it.

I *really* appreciate that you brought it here! :applause:

:hi:
sw

[G_j]

162. call me jaded

but I absolutely agree

[Desertrose]

219. Hello, jaded!

:evilgrin:

Well, I think we are just realistic......I agree, too.

:hi: :hug: :loveya: G_j

[G_j]

272. hi

:hi: :hug: :loveya: sw

[Kermitt Gribble]

163. Agree 100%

Big Business and Big Banking will not allow either party to not raise the debt ceiling. This is all a show to give the rest of us the illusion that we still have 2 parties and that our govt still works. Just like the HCR "debates".

[firehorse]

173. agreed... faux negotiations, political theater, to distract that we are a 1 party nation

[Uncle Joe]

164. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, scarletwoman.

[scarletwoman]

258. Thank you kindly. Glad to see you, Uncle Joe!

:hi:

[meow mix]

171. +rec

[xiamiam]

172. theatrics promoted by the media

end the crappy wars which are destroying us in every way..then, and only then will i believe anything

[Poll_Blind]

175. K&R!

PB

[Blue_In_AK]

179. Thank you, scarletwoman

It's nice to know I'm not alone in my skepticism. :hug:

[TomClash]

180. Pretty sensible

I have been saying something similar since yesterday. Whether the President outmanuevered Cantor and Boehner is really irrelevant.

Here's a flash: to accept McConnell's plan and get the authority to raise the debt ceiling by $700 billion Obama must propose $700 billion in cuts and no tax increases. Not much of a victory in my view.

It's like scoring a run in the 7th inning and thinking the game is over.

[DeSwiss]

181. It's all one big scam. - K&R n/t

[Enthusiast]

183. Yeah.

And I'm not going to get all towel snappy. Whatever the hell that means.

[closeupready]

185. Agreed and recced. From what I understand, he STILL has agreed to cut SS and Medicare.

That, in a country with wealthy interests that are exponentially more wealthy with every passing day.

I don't care if he gets what he wants or doesn't -

If he cuts SS or Medicare, I am done.

[caseymoz]

186. The one thing I do trust is. . .

Warnings that failure to raise the debt ceiling will cause grave economic problems. It goes to show that they should have never even put that "ceiling" in place. It leads to a completely artificial way to screw the economy, and a way for idiots to do it.

[Stinky The Clown]

187. Very wel said

I have long felt this is all a sham.

[florida08]

188. your not alone

Many of us have not figured out his reason for cutting the programs we ourselves fund for ourselves. We're told there's a bigger picture. There's not. All of us are grappling with candidate Obama now POTUS Obama which seems to be in odd contradicition with each other. Because to some degree it is.

Occam's Razor states: The principle that entities should not be multiplied needlessly; the simplest of two competing theories is to be preferred.

This is what is happening. We're in uncharted territory. Obama has experienced on the job training when it comes to hard core republicans. He's made many mistakes believing he could cut a deal that would be in the majority of the public's interest. Their sole priority is to make him one term. It began the day of his innaugeration. His major mistake was believing that would change. It won't. His pragmatism is working for some and scaring the hell out of most. So he goes to the middle. Only the middle has now been shoved to the right. Liberals like myself are taking a beating. Here's why.

According to the poll, 68 percent of self-identified Democrats, as well as 76 percent of political independents, say they want Democratic leaders in the House and Senate to make compromises to gain consensus in the current spending debate.

By comparison, 56 percent of self-identified Republicans — and 68 percent of Tea Party supporters — want GOP leaders to stick to their position, even if it means the inability to achieve consensus. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42460168/ns/politics-white_house/t/poll-democrats-want-compromise-republicans-prefer-resolve/

Polls will be the nail in our coffin, but he's trying to meet everyone halfway. And it feels that way too.

According to MSNBC:
To opponents of revisions in Medicare, Medicaid or Social Security, he said, "I guarantee that if we don't make any changes at all, we won't be able to keep our commitments to a retiring generation that will live longer and face higher health care costs than those who came before."

Of $4 trillion in cuts, Obama said $2 trillion should come from spending, $1 trillion from overhauling the tax system to eliminate some tax breaks and loopholes, and the rest recouped from lower interest payments on the national debt

Obama also wants to allow Bush-era tax cuts to expire for individuals making $200,000 or more a year and couples making $250,000 or more. The revenue that would generate is not counted in his $4 trillion in deficit reduction.

Administration officials said military spending would be reduced by $400 billion through 2023, domestic programs would absorb $770 billion in cuts and mandatory programs such as agricultural subsidies another $360 billion.

An additional $480 billion would be saved from Medicare, which provides health care principally to 33 million seniors, and from Medicaid, a state-federal program that covers lower-income families and is ticketed for a huge expansion under the health care program Obama signed into law last year.

The president also urged Congress to pass tax changes, and he suggested he was open to curtailing a homeowners' tax deduction that can currently be claimed by filers at all income levels. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42566545/ns/politics-white_house/t/obama-cut-spending-raise-taxes-wealthy/

The thing is it's hurting his presidency but he's willing to be gungho on a halfway measure because he deems it as fair for what he's asking in return. But is it? To get a 3% tax increase..maybe? Some closed loopholes that will be undone later? The issue that we already know is we have not gotten a fair shake in any of this since we were robbed by Wall Street. Getting more of the same doesn't help even if it looks fair to him. That's why we're angry. When we're ill we don't go to the doctor with expectations of compromising do we?

That's the problem with centrism.

[bvar22]

202. "CENTRISM"....because its do EASY!

You don't have to STAND for ANYTHING,
and get to insult those who do!!!
:party:



"The only thing in the Middle of the Road
are Yellow Stripes and Dead Armadillos."--Jim Hightower

[OwnedByFerrets]

190. Correct, we are NEVER considered in these discussions

[harun]

191. Amen to that. Kabuki Theater BS.

[dana_b]

192. perfectly stated

k&r!

[rhett o rick]

194. I agree. rec. nm

[Jim_Shorts]

195. our man (cough cough) will help continue the assault on the poor and middle class

As long as it cost a billion (billion with a B) dollars for Obama to buy his job back and 10's of millions to buy a senate seat, we will be an afterthought.

I think Barack had good intentions at one time but he may as well embrace his roots as a moderate ......republican.

[Name removed]

200. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[watajob]

201. Amen!

[Dystopian]

204. KandR

Thank you...great post.

Trampled underfoot. Again.

peace~

[paparush]

209. Shock Doctrine applied to the poor and elderly.

Sicko.

[Cronus Protagonist]

214. Brought to you by the official DU spelling and grammar police - "affected"

"effected" is incorrect in the context of the OP. The word should have been "affected".

Carry on peeps.

:hi:

[scarletwoman]

250. Thank you! I will always support the spelling and grammar police, whose dedication to protect

and to serve the cause of preserving our language ought always be lauded by those of us who cherish the written word.

I am sincerely chagrined by my error, yet carry on I shall! :patriot:

:D
sw

[snooper2]

215. Will you get all tingly if I tell you Obama is going to kick ass?

:)

[The Big Vetolski]

218. I don't either. When Jamie Dimon predicts "catastrophe" if the debt

ceiling isn't raised, I can't help but wonder, catastrophe for whom? I know this guy, who as Matt Taibbi pointed out, said that foreclosures actually HELPED people to meet their responsibilities after HE accepted hundreds of billions in bailout money for JP Morgan, this guy who Obama described as one of the "savvy businessmen," doesn't give a damn about the Dude here. I suppose that means a debt default would be bad for HIM, and therefore catastrophic.

Does anyone really KNOW? After all, America has never defaulted on its debt. Other countries have, but never the biggest economy in the world, at least not in modern times. Soooo...I think we ought to find out. Maybe we will, if the Tea Party ignoramuses in the House stick to their guns.

OTOH, I doubt that will happen. If no deal is reached, I imagine Senator Turtleface's "last resort" of allowing the President to raise the debt ceiling will miraculously pass and Obama will, of course, raise the debt ceiling. Pity. The Dude's curiosity will then remain unsatisfied.

[Desertrose]

220. It IS all a show....

...and they will most likely (continue to) cover their own asses while handing us ours...


"But let us not mistake the feet that trample us less as evidence of benevolence."


This is a great line, sw. Good point, too. It's all about them and nothing about us...they only want our votes and even then, not all that much cause there are other ways to win their elections.

Maybe everything has to get good & broken before it will get fixed right....I just hate that it's always the little guy(s) that take it up the bum during the process.....


:hi::loveya: :hug:
DR

[Autumn]

222. Fantastic post

" But let us not mistake the feet that trample us less as evidence of benevolence." You have nailed exactly what the party has done for some time now. Best quote ever. Thank you, wonderful post.

[scarletwoman]

252. Thank you for your kind words!

I'm delighted that you liked what I wrote. :)

[onpatrol98]

237. I believe he'll be more bold in his 2nd term.

[MrMickeysMom]

240. There's no real reason to feel the need TO trust the process...

How can any of us trust that the "deal" of staying solvent would involve 1.5 trillion in tax cuts for the wealthy who are under-taxed? Can you feel good when the Democratic leadership is willing to give another illegal hair cut to the Social Security Trust Fund.

The only good thing in Trust was what earlier leaders in the White House did so that we could HAVE a thing WE pay into CALLED a trust fund.

That's the only trust I believe in!

[Overseas]

249. I wanted us to take the clean bill. With the GOP disapproval written into it.

Then we could campaign by saying they approved GWB hiking the debt ceiling SEVEN TIMES to give tax breaks to millionaires and billionaires and finance his wars, but disapprove of Democrats raising it to try to put more people back to work.

[bertman]

251. Too late to REC, so here's the kick.

[EFerrari]

259. And one more.

[scarletwoman]

260. Thank you. (she said, getting her own kick in...)

:D

[blindpig]

268. Late kick, hate to have missed this.

And when the dust settles and the degree of our screwing becomes apparent these same detractors will be telling us that night is day and that cats bark and dogs meow.

[scarletwoman]

273. Late kick appreciated. This has been a great thread, so many good DUers offering their thoughts.

It doesn't matter how many want to insist that night is day. Truth will out.

:hi:
sw

[woo me with science]

274. Kick. nt

[scarletwoman]

275. Thank you! It was a surprise to see this thread show up again!

:)