Which President do you blame for the recession?

[kentuck]

They just showed a poll on Morning Joe with this question.

54% said George W Bush and 27% said Barack Obama. The people have not forgotten.

[snappyturtle]

1. Hard to believe someone would unrec this! nt

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

40. It shouldn't be hard to believe here on DU. There are a number of folks

who claim not to hate the president, but their actions demonstrate otherwise.

Thanks!

[skepticscott]

100. Not at all

it's a rather silly question to begin with. It's a persistent myth that presidents can control the economy to a significant degree, and that they should get the lion's share of the credit or blame for its ups and downs. But it just isn't that simple.

[muriel_volestrangler]

2. I'd put them in order

1 George W Bush for being in charge during the 8 years in which everything went wrong, and screwing up the fed budget during that time with tax cuts and military spending
and then, a fair way back,
2= Bill Clinton for being in charge when Glass-Steagal was repealed
2= Ronald Reagan, for introducing voodoo economics to the Republicans, which they've never got rid of
2= Barack Obama, not for any cause of it, but for an insufficient stimulus that has lengthened the unemployment effects

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

3. In defense of Obama, it was the Blue Dogs/DLCers who wanted more

tax cuts and breaks for small businesses in that bill. That was the ONLY way for them to vote for it.

I'm sorry, but the way this works is that it must go through Congress first, and the only way to bring the entire Democratic Caucus together on this--not to mention, get it past the Republicans in the Senate--was to concede those changes.

Therefore, I place the blame squarely at the feet of the Blue Dogs and DLCers on this, not necessarily Obama, though he approved the final bill.

[Dawgs]

5. Then Obama gets zero credit, good or bad, for anything that goes through Congress?

Is that what you're saying?

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

29. In a way, yes! That's the way our government works. In contrast, the Republicans

who control the House and thus the "purse strings," get the blame for not introducing a single jobs bill and not moving forward on the budget or debt ceiling.

Listen, let's be clear on this: I work for the federal government and most agencies have submitted budgets for FY11, FY12 and are now preparing for FY13. The U.S. House of Representatives is responsible for taking up these budget measures. As part of the Executive Branch, we submit proposals, but it Congress that decides how much money we get, where cuts take place, and what programs remain.

Congress has a great deal of power, and I'm not quite sure why many here on DU don't know this and/or cannot accept this reality.

[muriel_volestrangler]

9. More blame goes to them, but some to him as party leader

when he had a majority in both houses, and the country was looking for solutions to the recession (and this wasn't that close to the 2010 elections), he could have tried harder.

Similarly, Clinton didn't introduce the bill (bills?) that repealed banking regulations, but he could have tried to rally his party to allow him to veto them.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

30. How do you know what happens behind closed doors with these talks?

You don't know because we never see negotiations that take place behind closed doors. We cannot say for sure what the president/Dem leaders did behind those doors.

Same with Clinton who admitted that he worked with Republicans on the Glass-Stegall still; it was something that he supported. Therefore, I blame him for that. It's one thing to be forced to compromise with the Republicans because they control the Congress. It's another thing altogether to actually agree with with those policies.

[Stinky The Clown]

Then by your reckoning, Bush is not responsible for the wars or the recession, correct?

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

37. Collectively, both the Republican-led Congress and Bush are to blame.

Why? Two reasons:

1. First, spending was encouraged by Bush. He issued signing statements and directed Congress on supplementary spending bills for Defense. There is no evidence that Obama has done that...yet!

2. Second, he directed his executive agencies to hire more Defense contractors, paid for by taxpayer dollars. He also expanded government (e.g., Homeland Security, intelligence agencies) which requires more funding.

So, yes. In this context, the blame goes to Bush and to his Republican-led Congress.

I'm much more of a pragmatist than an emotional, knee-jerk reactionary. I consider the political context in which these decisions take place. I don't issue blame unless I consider all the facts behind those decisions.

[liberation]

102. For half of Bush's second term it was a Dem-led Congress

you forgot that tiny itsy bitsy fact in your pragmatic analysis.

[rhett o rick]

49. I dont see Pres Obama as being that distant from the DLC. nm

[bvar22]

115. Then you admit that...

...our BIG problem is NOT with the Republican Party.
Our BIG problem is with Republicans (DLC, Blue Dogs) masquerading as "Democrats" inside the Democratic Party.

I agree,
and until we FIX the Democratic Party,
we can only expect MORE of the SAME.


"There are forces within the Democratic Party who want us to sound like kinder, gentler Republicans.
I want a party that will STAND UP for Working Americans."
---Paul Wellstone

[Enthusiast]

107. Bush's actions were no accident.

This was a long term plan put in place to "starve the beast". Government is the beast -according to the right wing. Now we owe trillions so we "Must cut entitlements."

[Demeter]

4. All of them since Nixon

They continually courted the corporations and banks by undoing all the post-Depression reforms. And voila! Depression again. And they are STILL undoing what little regulation exists.

[defendandprotect]

73. +1 --

And not to mention LBJ assistance with the coup on JFK --

yeah, he passed Civil Rights and gave us Medicare for all -- but the coup moved

our government into hands of elites/corporations.

[stockholmer]

86. all of them after Kennedy (Nixon (killing gold standard), Clinton (repeal of Glass-Steagall,

and passing NAFTA and the Commodity Futures Modernization Act) Reagan (trickle down and explosion in war spending), W Bush (all around shite) and Obama (continuation of Bush all-around shite). Sod the lot of them.

[liberation]

103. How does a gold standard prevent a recession

exactly?

[stockholmer]

120. dollar devalution, debt explosion thru artificial boom/busts via centrally-run monetary system

All global fiat currencies are being utterly debased and destroyed right before your eyes. Throughout history, every single fiat currency has collapsed in a violent plummet. Every one. This time will be no different.

Even If you were ONLY buying into the teeth of the manic parabolic gold bubble of January/February 1980, you would have been in the black since 2007, if you were buying in 1977, 1978, and the first half of 1979 you were ALWAYS in the black, and if buying in 1982 to 1985 (and almost all of the rest of the 1980's), you were in the black from 2005 onwards. If you had been buying from the end of 1997 up until 2005, you would have seen huge profits of over 300 to 600 percent already, just in gold. Silver is even more dramatic in its rate of return, even with the very recent pullback from $47/$49 an ounce to $35/$$37 an ounce.

Gold has increased by double digits as a percentage gained for the last 10 years in a row. Can you say the same of the NASDAQ? The Dow? The S&P? The US dollar? US Treasuries? The average US IRA? LOL! How about your paycheck? How about the value of the average American house? Not so funny.


I have been long gold AND silver since 1998 and 1999 (in physically-held, allocated non-bank secure vault accounts), when the US trashed the Glass–Steagall Act and legalized derivatives under the Clinton/Rubin/Greenspan troika. I have an average gain of over well over 300%, whilst the Dow is utterly stagnant from the tech bubble crash of early 2000 till now. In fact, it is off greatly, due to inflation, and many were crushed in the stock crash of 2008-2009, and pulled out, locking in huge losses that they could have somewhat recovered in the QE 1 and QE 2 fueled bubble that is now unraveling. Check back with me in 2 or so years when those 300-600% figures are closing in on 1000-1500% profits.

In 1970, the average US car cost $3900 and it took 114 ounces of gold to buy. In 2011, that same car is around $29,000 yet takes less than 19 ounces of gold to buy. Hello dollar debasement!

Plus, when the Fed fund rate peaked under Volcker in the middle of 1981 at 20%, the US national debt was only 1 trillion, today it is 14 times that (soon to 15 or 16 times that) , and even a move of the Fed's Fund Rate (it is now and has near zero% since the 2008 crisis) up to only 5% or 6% (hardly the 20%+ that the PIIGS are paying) would mean well over a trillion in debt service payments over just ONE year. If/when the funds rate does double digits, say hi to $1.5 to 2 trillion a YEAR in debt service payments alone.

[ozone_man]

125. Including the eliminatiion of Glass Steagall in 2000.

All of this derivative nonsense accelerated the present situation. Clinton signed it.

Bush just inherited the mess, crashing markets, and made it much worse. Now it's Obama's turn at it. So, he appoints the crooks to his financial team that got us into this mess.

[seabeyond]

6. bushco started 2 wars and helped to deregulate. then clinton with nafta. the reagan with

deregulation and finally obama for not prosecuting crimes, getting out of wars and lack of regulations

[FBaggins]

7. Blaming Bush doesn't mean that you don't blame Obama

Just about everyone knows that it's Bush's fault... But that's not relevant for the next election.

Just poll "is Obama the man to fix it?"

That number is likely falling weekly.

[tekisui]

8. Regan, Bush, Clinton, Bush and Obama.

[Liberalynn]

10. Ding Ding Ding Ding

We have a winner!

[hifiguy]

26. +1

but the Little Chimp more than the others.

[Festivito]

33. Bullshit on including Clinton. He brought that deficit down and set up repaying the debt by now.

He lowered that Bush 1 runaway deficit year by year until we were ready for surpluses. Then Bush 2 was selected and Bush 2 reversed Clinton's surplus budgets bringing the deficits back.

Clinton's addition to the debt was only the part he inherited as he slowed the year by year deficit additions to debt.

Clinton upped it 1.5T$ with deficits decreasing when he left,
Bush 2 upped it 5T$ with deficits increasing when he left, and so far,
Obama has decreased deficits year by year from Bush 2's last budget, and,
Obama's work projects even further decrease again this coming year.

[Romulox]

35. Er, NAFTA hasn't been good to the D, Festivito!

:hi:

[The Big Vetolski]

51. Clinton pushed for repealing Glass-Steagall. Unforgivable. Not to

mention putting NAFTA on the fast track and proving Perot right on that. And Welfare Deform. Sorry, dude, no dice.

[Frisbee]

57. Exactamundo! Just because he had a D after his name...

doesn't absolve him from some pretty boneheaded moves, and I'd put Glass-Steagall at the top of that list followed closely by NAFTA. The damage done by just those two ill-advised moves is mind boggleing, though it still leaves him behind W and Raygun in my view.

[BlueCheese]

75. The repeal of Glass-Steagall

... is barely a footnote in the financial crisis. Of all the things that went wrong, that was a blip.

[marias23]

88. Sad, but true.

Clinton was a disappointment on these courts for sure. Repealing Glass-Steigal was unforgivable. Bush built on this terrible mistake.

[Festivito]

90. Change the subject to more bull? Clinton was presented that with a veto-proof majority, signing....

... gave him more time to watch what they would do without losing a battle already lost.

Amazing how some people think a bunch of half-truths add up to truth. But it's really like multiplying fractions. The products just keep getting smaller and smaller and smaller.

[Zoeisright]

83. That's right.

[JVS]

93. How is the deficit related to the recession?

[liberation]

104. That is a good question

Yes Clinton managed to leave office with a more manageable deficit, however he also left a "new economy" that no one in his administration knew why the hell was working (esp. Greenspan) and which ended being an explosive bubble. That led to the first recession under Bush's 1st term, then 9/11 made things even worse.

If it hadn't been for the Chinese pumping up the US Credit markets with easy money, the recession in 03 could have been rather catastrophic and would have tarnished Clinton's legacy (since that was his bubble).

But at the end of the day people listing presidents as responsible for the current recession, miss the point.

The real situation is that presidents have little control over the economy. For the most part the chairman of the Fed has a larger effect. So if we're going to be technical about laying blame, Greenspan should be at the fore front. Followed by Bernanke. Also throw in people like Milton Friedman and the rest of the Chicago School which imposed supply-side as the model for the American economy. I will throw in Bush Jr as a culprit, because as our first MBA President he acted like a reverse King Midas, fubaring things to such heights that he exposed the truth that has always been ever so self evident: the American business class has never had any clothes.


There are no winners in this game, as far as the average American citizen is concerned.

[Xicano]

54. This, plus Nixon when he closed the gold window.

n/t

[defendandprotect]

71. Brettonwood Accords also had a lot to do with this -- permitting capital to flee country !!

That was also Nixon --

[Xicano]

123. Indeed...

eom.

[bigwillq]

61. Was going to be my answer.

:thumbsup:

[onpatrol98]

69. +1

Clinton gave us NAFTA. We've been dying every since. I voted for him twice. But, to me...that was the beginning of the end. Once the realized they could ship in more dirt cheap goods, and even more jobs...well, I think it helped get us where we are today.

[Honeycombe8]

77. Factually speaking, it's not Obama's. It happened before Obama took office, and it's

gotten better since he took office. So just factually speaking, it can't be Obama's fault. He can be faulted for not making it better faster, or even better.

It started at the end of George's 2nd term.

I suppose an argument could be make that things were set in motion before George's 2nd term that lead to the recession. But how far back do you go for that? And how indirectly related does it have to be for it be a cause of the recession?

But it hit before Obama took office, and it has improved since he took office. So, just sayin', even if a person wants it to be his fault, it just isn't, any more than the sky is green.

[21st Century FDR]

97. Damn right!

Everybody acknowledges that Chimpy really screwed up the country, but he was only building on the foundation of destruction set in motion by his daddy (let's face it, Ronnie wasn't really in charge of jack shit) back in 1981, and further enabled by Clinton/DLC triangulation moves in the 90's.

Thirty years of this bullshit. It's way past time to end it.

[JoePhilly]

11. The sad thing is that the recession started in Dec 2007 and yet 27%

blame Obama for it.

Hummm ... 27% .... wasn't Bush's final approval number about 27%?

[NNN0LHI]

12. Sadder thing is it took 11 posts before for someone pointed that fact out

Unbelievable.

Don

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

44. EXACTLY!!! DU too busy hating on O to be intellectually honest! +1,000,000,000!!! n/t

[bjobotts]

63. Agreed. Obama's addition is in order to clean up Bush's mess.Just reversing Bush tax cuts ends defic

it by the end of Obama's second term. That's all Congress needs to do. We are not spending anymore than we ever did...spending has not increased just revenues have decreased sharply since Reagan. Clinton raised taxes 3% on wealthy and left with a surplus. The deficit is all Bush and cronies. Congress always passes the president's budget and Bush put it all on credit card without even adding cost to budget.

[deacon]

128. It's mindboggling. And, we are technically not in a recession anymore.So,1 + 1 = some random number.

[deacon]

129. Too, the lunacy is that you couldn't create such an economic debacle like this in a mere two years.

Obama has nothing to do with it. All actions being taken and have been taken are all in an attempt to deal with what the GOP and bush created.

[liberal N proud]

13. 27% - wasn't that the last poll numbers who supported bu$h when he left office?

These are the die hard, core group of the right wing, who would never support anything left of them.

[ThomWV]

16. You're right, and that 27% constitutes today's "Tea Party"

[reformist2]

68. That sounds about right - there's 30% on each side that never changes their mind.

If you can get 70% on a Repub v. Dem kind of question, you've basically won over everyone there is to win.

[HopeHoops]

14. The shrub.

[ThomWV]

15. Historically Reagan, but of course it took Bush-II to really break the bank.

[Balbus]

17. We only have one president.

[Quantess]

18. Obviously, GW Bush.

Not really a mystery.

[deacon]

19. 27%? Omg. He wasn't president when the recession started. Dummies. n/t

[FLAprogressive]

20. Ronald Reagan, he began trickle down disease. All subsequent presidents, for validating the disease.

[LynneSin]

21. I was just going to say that

:D

[slackmaster]

32. I put some of the blame on Reagan for overseeing deregulation of the financial services industry

Lending in particular. The seeds for the housing crisis were planted in the 1980s.

[dissidentboomer]

22. SHOCKING that 27%.... 27%!? said Obama. Wow. NEVER underestimate

the ignorance of the American public. God this is depressing.

[green917]

23. I blame 3 of them

Ronald Wilson Reagan
George Herbert Walker Bush
George Walker Bush

[bvar22]

24. Which President do I blame for the recession?

Every President of either Political Party that pushed:

*De-Regulation

*Free Trade

*Free Markets

*the consolidation of Corporate Power

*The de-funding and castration of the Oversight Agencies


The Democratic Party is a BIG TENT, but there is NO ROOM for those
who advance the agenda of THE RICH (Corporate Owners) at the EXPENSE of LABOR and the POOR.

[The Big Vetolski]

52. There you go. Making sense again. You'll upset people. Are their

shrinks paying you? :)

[Fuddnik]

25. Grover Cleveland.

Anybody named either "Grover" or "Cleveland" deserves blame.

[slackmaster]

27. The 9/11 hijackers started it by picking a fight with the mean dumb President

:argh:

In September 2001 the stage for a recession was already set. The dot com bubble had burst, people were losing jobs. The bad loans and inflated housing prices that led to the collapse of that market were in place.

The 9/11 attacks were like kicking a bully in the knee. Bush led us down the path of futile wars, and everything else just fell in behind the money we dumped into them.

[scheming daemons]

28. a recession is defined as two straight quarters of negative GDP growth

The recession began in 4th quarter of 2007 and ended in summer of 2009.

So it was all Bush.

[Stinky The Clown]

31. It isn't black and white

The recession is Bush's, entirely.

Some of the attempted remedies are Obama's.

[MichiganVote]

34. I'd rather spend my time thinking of who to credit with US economic stability and profitability.

And right now, that doesn't seem to be anyone. Besides, I'm not convinced that one person on one of three levels of the US government can solve a recession that has its roots in finance.

[Romulox]

36. Reagan, HW, Clinton, W, Obama are ALL to blame. nt

[JackRiddler]

38. Not the right question.

I blame real-existing capitalism.

Presidents are servants.

[Wounded Bear]

39. It will always be the "Bush Recession" to me.....nt

[Shagbark Hickory]

41. Which president do you blame for not doing enough for recovery from resession? nm

[Rozlee]

67. I'm not blaming Obama for anything except not using the power of the bully pulpit.

The Great Communicator, he's not. And when he tries to be, he confuses people with polispeak. He needs to go on the road and hammer a few facts into people over and over again: taxes for the rich in 2001 and 2003 gave us most of our deficits and didn't create any jobs. The rich call themselves "job creators" and say they shouldn't be taxed, but where are the jobs?

The real estate market crashed in '07 and hasn't recovered and the sad fact is that as long as real estate is depressed, the economy won't do well either. Home building has traditionally led the way out of recessions along with the credit to fuel it. But, building is stagnant and credit is tight. The Depression lasted years. This Great Recession, although technically over, may last years as well, as far as jobs go. It's a prospect we Americans, with our impractical belief in easy solutions, can't wrap our heads around.

[Shagbark Hickory]

80. Well tax cuts for the rich is what he gave us.

[Rozlee]

81. He extended tax cuts for the rich, but I see where you're coming from.

In a perfect world, Obama would have brass balls that smashed like wrecking balls when he walked. We'd have a liberal congress that would join him in increasing taxes on the wealthy to pre-Reagan levels. Hell, back in the 40s, 50s, and 60s, marginal tax rates on the wealthy topped 90% at one time. And those were considered America's golden years. In that perfect world, those tax increases would wipe out the deficit, fund a massive stimulus to improve our infrastructure and build a green energy grid for the entire country to wean us from fossil fuels. And we'd end the damn wars. But, it's not a perfect world. It's this shitty, rotten world.

[Shagbark Hickory]

114. Either it's a "shitty rotten world" or Obama has other plans.

You keep talking like Obama wanted to do something other than what he did.

But you seem to be forgetting he vigorously defended his policies.

Actions speak louder than words in my book.

[Rozlee]

118. **Sigh** I raise the white flag of surrender.

He's been a great disappointment to me, too. I don't see where Hillary Clinton might have been a better choice. I'm holding out for a firebrand like Alan Grayson. But, co-opting seems to be the order of the day once our leaders are in the oval office.

[MrScorpio]

42. Junior, of course. Any other answer would be uncivilized nt

[FiveGoodMen]

43. Both

One for creating, one for maintaining.

[Yo_Mama]

45. I don't blame any president

I blame Congress and the Fed.

Presidents have relatively little authority over these issues. Congress makes these decisions.

[barbtries]

46. way too many of them have.

bush. bush. bush.

[tomp]

47. all of them. nt

[roamer65]

48. Bu$h and Greenspan.

Bad tax and monetary policy, respectively.

[dameocrat67]

50. I blame Reagan, Clinton and Bush for the tax cuts and deregulation

that created it and Obama for not reversing them, and making the problem worse.

[KoKo]

53. Reagan, Bush I, Clinton and Bush II ...Deregulation, Bad Trade Agreements and Bubbles...

Their Policies and Mistakes.....eom

[Sherman A1]

55. Reagan

it was he and his cronies that started this mess.

[Kablooie]

56. Millard Filmore

[jwirr]

58. George booosh. I also blame all the former rethug and Democratic

presidents who have gone along with raygun's trickle down theories.

[madinmaryland]

59. Reagan, Bush, and Bush. Not sure which recession you were talking about.

:shrug:

[eridani]

60. It would help a lot if Obama would blame Bush n/t

[existentialist]

62. Reagen

The present Republican cut taxes, borrow and spend practices that have become the mantra of Republicans really began under Reagen.

More than anything else that's why we are where we are today.

[Incitatus]

64. .

[killbotfactory]

65. 27% said Barrack Obama?

Because everything would be peaches and cream, the recession done and over with, if McCain had been elected.

[Incitatus]

66. Everyone except the President that fought against free trade and raised taxes on the rich. nt

Of course, W bears most of the blame and Clinton didn't help.

[McCamy Taylor]

70. BTW, that's the same 27% that loves Dick Cheney and thinks Elvis is still alive.

[defendandprotect]

72. Plenty of blame to go around -- Dems have kept these wars going since '06 -- !!

Which, btw, are bankrupting the Treasury --

We're paying $1,000 a gallon to KBR in Iraq which would keep one of our

helicopters in the air about a minute!

Are we actually spending more on air conditioning for our troops in ME

than the NASA budget?

How about Pentagon missing $2.3 TRILLION??? And another $18 billion or is it $23 billion

in cash missing in Iraq?

Nobody bothering looking at those things?


Obama knew the desperation of the nation on health care and that it would help budget and

suffering to move universal health care -- MEDICARE FOR ALL -- yet he made back room deals

with Big Pharma and private H/C industry -- large contriubtors to his campaign chest.


Clinton and the trade agreements which have sucked jobs out of America --

yet Obama just moved 3 more trade agreements!


Come on -- as Wm. Greider tells us in "Who Will Tell the People?" from 1992 --

The Democrats were colluding with the GOP back in 1978 to break the tax code for the benefit

of the rich!!

[Honeycombe8]

74. Which foolish 27% think it's Obama? I wonder if it's Republicans who just always say

taht everything is Obama's (or any Democrat's) fault.

[defendandprotect]

76. Capitalism also provided the opportunity for these financial crimes --

Unregulated capitalism is merely organized crime -- !!

It took a lot of rw violence to overturn government and New Deal --

we had 50 years of it in the open!!

Not to mention stolen elections --

[Honeycombe8]

79. Oh, yeah. Socialism and communistic govts don't have recessions, or corruption...

or financial crimes.

Where there are people, there is greed and corruption. The govt doesn't matter.

Capitalism is also the reason that middle class people are middle class and not poor, and can be born of mixed race and rise to the top of the country because of intelligence, skill, and talent. And the reason that a woman alone can support herself and buy a home. And the reason that a poor person can by his education and hard work rise to become a non-poor person.

[defendandprotect]

119. Communism is the reason we had a Middle Class -- something to "show off" -- but ...

after the Wall feel, elites didn't need a Middle Class here any longer --

Don't know what "socialism" you're talking about --

do you mean totalitarian socialism as in NAZI -- a party which actually embraced

social values before Hitler took it over --

or do you mean totalitarian communism in Russia which had little to do with communism?




Capitalism is also the reason that middle class people are middle class and not poor, and can be born of mixed race and rise to the top of the country because of intelligence, skill, and talent. And the reason that a woman alone can support herself and buy a home. And the reason that a poor person can by his education and hard work rise to become a non-poor person.

Evidently you've missed a lot of the news lately --

We're in a depression caused by a financial coup by banks and their investment bank associates

and other elements of capitalism and FED policy -- Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac -- liar loans --

Genereal Deregulation of capitalism, etal --



We need to move to democractic socialism --

Capitalism is a ridiculous "King-of-the-Hill" system intended to move the wealth and natural

resources of nations from th many to the few --

Deregulated capitalism is merely organized crime --

The world long survived without capitalism -- we can do it again!

[Honeycombe8]

121. No, communism is NOT the reason there is a middle class.

I don't know where you're getting you're information, but you've been misinformed.

Capitalism is not a type of government, you know. It is only because people can BENEFIT from their efforts (capitalism) that they can become middle class.

You won't find middle class in feudalistic societies. You work and toil, but you don't benefit from your efforts. The "government" or "master" takes it and distributes it, while keeping most of it. You stay poor, regardless of what you do. And your children are poor. And their children are poor. And so on.

Socialism: From each, according to his ability, TO each, according to his need. (which is to say, in extremism, means...when you're young and healthy, you can work an entire farm, but you have to give half of your harvest to your elderly neighbors, because they don't have the ability to do work a whole farm. So the following year, you don't work the whole farm because...well, why would you? They just take it away. And you never are able to reap the rewards of your efforts.) There are less extreme socialistic societies, adn then there are socialistic programs, like our Social Security program, which is a good thing. This extreme socialism is what Republicans fear.

Capitalism: You buy a car, drive it for several years, then fix it up and sell it and keep the money to put down on a new car. That is capitalism. You have earned yourself some money through your own efforts. Congratulations. Keep it up, and you can rise above the poverty level through capitalism. (The downside is telemarketers.)

[defendandprotect]

124. You do understand that in order for there to be a middle class, government has to support that idea?

Economic policies have to be in place to support it --

Tax codes can't support elites as they do now -- while burdening the

poor and middle class!

So government is a very active player in whether or not we have a Middle Class --

After the fall of the Berlin Wall, the rightwing wasn't interested in keeping the

Middle Class going -- nor concerned about creating homelessness!!

And that's what we've gotten from them --

Keep in mind that in 1978 -- according to Wm. Greider in "Who Will Tell the People?" ...

in 1978 Democrats colluded with the GOP in breaking the tax code for the benefit of the wealthy.

Democrats were in full power -- and this was pre-Reagan.

"Democratic Party majorities have supported this great shift in tax burden

every step of the way" -- !!



Capitalism isn't about benefitting from personal effort -- it's about cronyism -- who you

know -- wealth -- inside information -- and the frequent "crises" and "crashes" which

enrich the wealthy and steal from the poor.


The depression we are in now was caused by another of those financial coups --

See: Catherin Austin Fitts --

See: James Galbrith's comments to the Cat Food Commission re Social Security/Medicare

and the crimes which caused the meltdown -- which no one has bothered much to investigate!


Capitalism is essentially fascism -- and certainly the opposite of democracy --


Capitalism is a ridiculous "King-of-the-Hill" system intended to move the wealth and

natural resources of nations from the many to the few -- and it has done that quite

successfully.


The Vatican invented capitalism when Feudalism was no longer sufficient to run their

Papal States -- it certainly isn't economic democracy!


Again -- please tell me what socialism you are referring to -- and presume you know that

Europeans have always mixed socialism -- socially responsible government -- with capitalism?


This extreme socialism is what Republicans fear.

Again -- both Hitler's radicalized NAZI party -- originally a truly socialistic organization --

NOR Russia's totalitarian communism -- as J. Edgar Hoover always made a point of calling it -

were democratic socialism which is what our Social Security and Medicare are about --

or were intended to be until rightwing began tampering with it, moving the burden of FICA taxes

onto the shoulders of the poor and middle class.


Unregulated capitalism -- which we've been getting a taste of over the last decades --

is merely organized crime.

Neither is capitalism about competition -- it's about killing the competition --





PS: How's your weather in Texas now? Are you getting any relief -- ?

Or are you far removed from the problems with drought/fires? --

See from the map that it's across 14 states now --

[AlbertCat]

78. I don't blame any president.

Especially since both Reagan and Bush were cardboard cutout presidents and others were running the show.

I blame the GOP and weak Dems.

[Chisox08]

82. Even though Bush is directly responsible for the economic cluster fuck we are in

I also blame every President since 1980 for our economic problems. We got trickle down Reagannomics from that senile old geezer Reagan followed by the free trade policies of Bush Sr. and Clinton. All of that was given steroids by the illegal, war criminal Bush Jr., who I believe was America's first retarded President.

[Rex]

84. Ronald Reagan, Poppy Bush and Dick Cheney.

Let us be honest about the last guy in charge...it wasn't GWB.

[Dawson Leery]

85. kick

[jtuck004]

87. The president of Goldman Sachs, the president of JP Morgan, the

president of AIG, the president of Moody's, the president of Standard and Poors...etc.

Oh, and if they don't have a president, any of the sorry pieces of shit in charge of their avaricious behavior will do.

[Cereal Kyller]

89. K&R

Recessions occur under presidents of both parties, but there can be little doubt that GW Bush bears WAY more responsiblity than Obama (or Clinton) for our current economic condition.

[grahamhgreen]

91. End free trade and break up the monopolies to bring the jobs back.

[krkaufman]

92. downside...

W won't be Barack's opponent in November 2012.

[toddwv]

94. Bush and Reagan

The military wouldn't be sucking up so much cash if it wasn't for Reagan.
The tax revenue wouldn't be so low if it wasn't for Reagan.
The myth of the "welfare queens" wouldn't have such prominence if it wasn't for Reagan.

And Bush just plain sucked eggs as a President. The neocons' approach to economics was disastrous and since this approach was based on Reaganonmics...it comes back to Reagan.

[Prophet 451]

95. Mostly Bush

Although Reagan deserves some of the blame too.

[Harriety]

96. Reagan started it and Bush made it a lot worse

[rasputin1952]

98. gw bush, but it was Reagan that set the stage for this disaster...

as in the past, R's let corps run rampant and like the Great Depression was set up by the policies of Harding, Coolidge and Hoover.

As usual, after R disasters, it takes a D to clean up the mess...:(

[cordelia]

108. I agree. If a president is to blame, place this disaster

at the feet of idiot Reagan.

[rasputin1952]

112. Congress' are to blame as well...but it was Reagan that took his...

"dreams", (turned out to be pipe dreams), to the citizens. People bought the tripe and we fell into the abyss.

The whole greed thing raised it's ugly head again, as it does from time to time and people, unrealistically, thought they would become rich overnight. A few did, but at a terrible cost to the nation. It appears that consequences were never brought into the equation...:(

[Kablooie]

99. George Washington. He starrted the whole mess.

[Swampguana]

101. bush obviously

[spicegal]

105. The American people should NOT be allowed to forget

that it was Bush and his GOP comrades that are most responsible for creating this crisis.

[Enthusiast]

106. How could Obama be responsible he wasn't even in office?

That 27%, that's Bush base -the teabagger low information citizens brigade.

[WinkyDink]

111. Because he is in office NOW. And the current occupant historically gets some blame for current

conditions, fair or not.

[defendandprotect]

126. Because Obama followed Bush in bailing out capitalists -- and because stimulus was too small...

Obama only asked for 20% of what his economists were telling him was needed --

and he settled for even less!!

And -- because in permitting the FED to continue to determine our national economic

policies -- rather than Congress - we've ended up with high unemployment/downsizing

over decades now which was good for Wall Street -- and Clinton trade agreements have

caused immense loss of jobs -- something Obama/Dems have done nothing about correcting!!

In fact -- Obama has just given us 3 new trade agreements -- !!


Further, our citizens are suffering from the lack of universal health care which Obama

trampled in his back room deals with Big Pharma and the private H/C industry -- !!

Public understood that and you saw the results in 2010!

Passing MEDICARE FOR ALL would have saved the government money and created 2.3 million new jobs!


The Dems have also been keeping Bush's wars going since '06 -- despite Pelosi telling us

clearly the morning after '03 that "Dems were elected to end the war!" --

Obama/Dems has kept the wars going -- tens years of wars bankrupting our Treasury --



80% of the public want an end to the wars --

76% and more -- 83% of Catholics -- want single payer government run health care!!

[MrMickeysMom]

109. This is so typical of these yokels on the Morning Joe, isn't it?

How about going back to everything politically gamed since the later administration of FDR? Of course, we could find fault with FDR for omissions leading up to WWI involvement in his long presidency.

Morning Joe makes me laugh. What a joke.... but basically the morning zoo crew and their soft thinking producers want a cheerleading section they can later refer to as a "poll" of Bush the chimp, or Obama, the chump.

Sigh...

[WinkyDink]

110. 19% apparently have.

[Buns_of_Fire]

113. Between the two, bush, of course. I blame bush for EVERYTHING.

From the current state of the economy to the dead in Iraq and Afghanistan to the shortage of blue agave to the pile of dog waste I found on the sidewalk this morning. All bush.

Well, the pile of dog waste was probably more DICK cheenee's fault, but I consider Shit-fer-Brains and DICK as two heads of the same hydra, so it still works for me.

[bvar22]

116. Harry Truman...

Simply because he was the LAST President who took responsibility for ANYTHING.

"I've seen it happen time after time. When the Democratic candidate allows himself to be put on the defensive and starts apologizing for the New Deal and the Fair Deal, and says he really doesn't believe in them, he is sure to lose. The people don't want a phony Democrat. If it's a choice between a genuine Republican, and a Republican in Democratic clothing, the people will choose the genuine article, every time; that is, they will take a Republican before they will a phony Democrat, and I don't want any phony Democratic candidates in this campaign."
---President Harry Truman

QED:2010


Thank You, Harry,
for being a REAL "Leader" of the Democratic Party.
.
.
.
and NO, I don't really blame Harry for the Recession,
but that man DID know how to BE a Democratic "President".

[blindpig]

117. I don't blame any of them.

That's like blaming the actor for the writing of the play.

[TheKentuckian]

122. Shrub easy. I blame Obama for allowing the shenanigans to go on after being

rid of the shithead and increasingly for pushing the same failed ideology that brought us low.

[HappyMe]

127. Raygun & the shrub. nt