If shooter was as motivated by Beck, Palin, talk radio etc..etc..

[Cid_B]

...then why did he target such a self described middle of the road blue dog democrat (former Republican?)

While I'm confident there are explanations that could lead that way, as I look through GD this morning all I see is a big verbal circle ... of agreement.

So many assumptions and people picking up their personal pet hatred as the primary cause of this tragedy.

[Jennicut]

1. No Dem is seen as middle of the road by an extremist

[StopTheNeoCons]

48. Shooter is white power freak, she is Jewish, thats why

Shooter is white power freak, she is Jewish, thats why

[OneGrassRoot]

2. I don't know if they are the cause of this tragedy...

I don't know if there is any link at all between them and the shooter.

What I do know is that they have actively contributed in a very public way to a culture of violence, specifically within the political realm. And have made a fortune off of doing so.

For that they need to be held responsible, and this shooting -- of a political figure at a political gathering -- brings that into focus.

Arizona is batshit crazy central as far as political vitriol. It brings it all very sharply into focus.

[rbnyc]

49. Indeed.

I just siad the same thing but used about 600 times as many words. I should have read your post first.

:hi:

[OneGrassRoot]

54. lol...

Funny, I'm usually the one who is too long-winded.

;)

:hi:

[PoliticAverse]

3. You could call it a "Rush to Judgement". n/t

[tnvoter]

4. ask SarahPAC - they put the crosshairs on her.

[stray cat]

5. I wish there were a facts matter party - your post would be a perfect fit for those who prize facts

The rhetoric on the right is extreme but has not been tied specifically in a credible way to this murderer yet. Both the extremes on the right and left have their favorite mass murderers for whom they have sympathy. The murderer at the military complex was assumed mentally ill by many DUers but this murderer can not be mentally ill because he isn't a Muslim or what?

[pintobean]

11. +1

She won her conservative district in a very bad year for Democrats.

[zbdent]

20. in a race against a 'bagger

[pintobean]

24. a lot of 'baggers beat blue dogs

I don't get your point

[zbdent]

27. my point was augmenting your point ...

that she was "the villain" in the minds of the 'baggers ... she beat out their favorite.

[WinkyDink]

35. So, which do you think: both killers were nuts, or neither? What is your basic gripe, other than

that you don't care for posts that are ANTI-RW MEDIA?

[CAG]

6. Virtually all dems are godless evil liberals according to Beck, Palin, &

the other propagandists.

[shraby]

7. It's just possible he targeted her because she was handy and

was a Democrat, the object of his hate. Giffords was also put out there as a person to target. It takes money to travel to find another target which if he was living at his parent's home, he probably didn't have. I've seen no mention of him having a job anyplace.

[Demoiselle]

23. Exactly, shraby.

Proximity really is a factor.

[Cid_B]

26. That could be it...

... but using that logic it could be...

She was handy and she was a woman...
She was handy and he thought she was a jew...
She was handy and he wanted to be famous...
She was handy and he was fucking crazy...

I don't dismiss the idea of a political left vs. right assassination but at the same time I don't latch onto it as the "only and obvious" answer. It does seem less and less likely as things progress though.

[WinkyDink]

37. "Giffords was also put out there as a person to target." YES. THAT WOULD BE THE POINT.

[somone]

8. A Democrat is a Democrat to him

His thinking is very linear - no nuances. His deductive reasoning ain't so good, judging from what he wrote.

[Cid_B]

12. I saw some of his youtube...

... but no mention of democrats or liberals in the ones I saw. Were they mentioned in some other ramblings?

[harun]

9. Of course we don't know the details but it is a clear fact that these people,

Palin, Beck, Limbaugh, are trying to incite violence and intimidate with the threat of violence. Those are facts regardless of the motivations of this individual and what happened.

[MH1]

10. Did you miss the whole Palin target map? Her opponent's M-16 shooting event?

the fact that the perp comes from this particular district?

[Cid_B]

18. Just seems a reach to me...

See a lot of folks here who seem like they had saved that particular graphic stashed away with baited breath.

In case of tragedy break glass!

IOW, unless there is some inkling of proof that he saw that "terrifying" graphic and then proceeded to go on a killing spree my gut says that the dude was crazy and would have done the same thing if that particular .jpg had never been uploaded. Also, lets say a video footage comes out from his bedroom and he has it blown up to cover the south wall of his room so he can see it as he falls asleep, the guy is still f'ing crazy.

It's a losing game to try and guess about what could possibly "make" someone do something. Especially a crazy someone...

[WinkyDink]

32. I never heard of the "map" until yesterday. SEEMS TO ME there are quite a few posters attempting to

PRETEND THE SHOOTER WAS MOTIVELESS.

[Caretha]

55. Wow

"See a lot of folks here who seem like they had saved that particular graphic stashed away with baited breath.

In case of tragedy break glass!"

That's quite a conspiracy theory you've got going on there buddy. Tin foil hat much? You need to take that kind of rhetoric to the dungeon.

[MH1]

58. Actually, it's not a 'losing game', it's a legitimate field of study

There are a plethora of studies that look at that very question. And they back up the idea that someone to whom violence is a legitimate course of action, can be influenced by such things to take action.

[Cid_B]

63. Ill speak (type?) slower...

I'm not saying that you can't study/guess at what might set someone off. My point is that you shouldn't change your behavior on the off chance that a disturbed person could take that as a tipping point or contributing factor to a heinous act.

Otherwise its rubber rooms for us all...

[OHdem10]

13. Jewish, to these groups Democrat equals Liberal, Republican

Party has made Liberal, less than. Republicans
are right Liberals are wrong. Right and Wrong
carries a moral connotation--bad. It is ok to
destroy "bad things". Republicans are big on
Right V. Wrong. Just the other night S.Madden
on CNN used this very strongly saying his party
must continue to use this. This feeds the ant-government
types who have evil intentions.

It is being reported by Homeland Security that
he is associated with a group that professes
to be anti-semetic, anti government.

[upi402]

14. Sharon Angel?

Have you not been concerned that ill people will act on all the incitement to violence against liberals and Democrats?

You think Fox friends distinguish bluedogs from communists? Really?

[Cid_B]

19. I'll take a stab at that verbal spew...

I think that it is a waste of time to try and outguess what could set off a crazy person. Could be what everyone says here... could have been the Easter bunny.

That's why you call it crazy.

Just as a note, it was a Fox broadcast that brought this post to my mind. Gifford was on Fox day before yesterday and was talking about her middle of the road policies. So yes, that is exactly where I found this distinction.

[upi402]

21. You watch Fox huh?

You aren't bothered that all the incitement to violence directed at their simple and sick viewers - has come to its ultimate end - you are not bothered by that are you?

No, you are not bothered by that. You are bothered by those who have connected the dots, aren't you.
You support them don't you? Yes, you enable them and tacitly consent to their propaganda. Maybe now not so tacitly, huh?

[Cid_B]

30. Dude...

You type like Gollum referring to the precious...

[WinkyDink]

33. Giffords, with an "s". And you KNOW the killer was "CRAZY" exactly how?

PLEASE don't try the "all murderers are by definition crazy" response.

[Cid_B]

44. Fair enough...

I'll amend my statement.

Based on what I have seen with his youtube videos and other evidence that it is looking likely that he is disturbed in my own opinion. I have seen little to zero evidence that he was influenced by Beck, Palin or other political pundits.

See how easy that is to move a conversation forward?

[no_hypocrisy]

15. Couple of things:

1. Sarah Palin had Gifford targeted. All he did was follow her recommendation.
2. Gifford was local and available to him.
3. It's a warning to anyone who isn't a rightwing conservative. Not restricted to liberals or democrats.

[Lucinda]

16. It is sort of the norm here as people vent and work through the horror of it all

I've seen it often at DU. I'd rather know WHY he did it than preassign blame. But i do understand the anger being expressed.

He's not simply a politically motivated assassin IMO. If that were the case the young girl would still be alive. The only pre-judgement that I have reached is that he is clearly mentally unstable. There is some connection to the Congresswoman which made her the target... But, most of his anger seems to have been directed at the school who expelled him. Did he ask for her to intervene and she didn't? Was he an ardent Pelosi fan and tweaked because she didn't vote for Pelosi in the recent election. Was he influenced by Beck, Palin, Rush? We will know soon enough. I don't see the point in laying blame until its due. (Even though I see the point of pointing out the rhetoric that could have been a catalyst)

Clearly he is mentally unstable. Thats the one thing I do know, so far.

[AC_Mem]

17. She was his Congresswoman

Who was in a parking lot with no protection. Perhaps she was his focus as his mind snapped.

I was reading that this may not have been the first time he met her, that they may have had previous interaction of some sort.

Once the FBI gets into his computer and sees what books, etc. he surrounded himself with, and speaks to his parents to find out the extent of his mental illness, we will learn everything we need to know about his true motivations.

I think it is the terrible result of someone who is mentally ill and probably not on proper medical treatment for the illness. If there were warning signs, and I think there were (previous threats reported) and nothing was done - then there is allot of blame to be shared in this tragedy.

[muriel_volestrangler]

22. Because she was his local rep, a pro-choice Democrat (abortion is "terrorism", according to him)

He hated "the current government". For a jobless young man, the local federal representative, who says when she'll appear in public, is the easiest target.

[seabeyond]

25. why do teabaggers believe obama RAISED their taxes when he LOWERED them. there was D behind womans

name. palin said lock and load on this democrat. the democrats politics are irrelevent to the ignorant because they dont know the politics, they just listen to the mouth pices of hate.

[lpbk2713]

28. A lot more may be learned when the "person of interest" is questioned.

He may have been the real puppet master. It sounds to me like
the prime suspect of the moment is easily manipulated.

[tabasco]

29. The same reason Palin put a target on her.

To these jackboot Nazi motherfuckers, any Democratic politician is an enemy.

[Erose999]

31. Probably the closest Dem he could find. Not sure if there are any "progressive" Dems in SB1070-land.

[WinkyDink]

39. "Probably the closest Dem he could find." How would that make Giffords NOT his target?

The anti-anti-RW-media posts here are getting more and more desperate.

[Erose999]

52. I don't get what you are trying to insinuate. What I am saying is that the shooter

probably wasn't as much interested in the diverse factions of the Democratic Party as he was just finding the closest Democratic politician he could.

Arizona is not a place with a lot of "progressive" Democrats. Hence the victim ended up being a Blue Dog.

The hate talkers and their Teahadist followers don't really draw a distinction between the Blue Dogs, and the more progressive Dems. To them anyone with a (D)is the "great satan".

[Statistical]

34. A supporting idea: Nowhere in his delusions/rants does he mention Democrat, Democratic.

He multiple times mentions government, and governmental control. He also had issues with currency and grammar being used as methods of control by the government. He has some issues with military, and religion, and also has a lot of issues with labels. But neither Democratic or Republican appear in any of the public available rants. Neither do any synonyms like left or right, liberal or conservative.

It seems his target was "the government". Schizophrenics tend to not see subtle distinctions. They need larger than life concepts to fuel their delusions. Like "The government is tracking me and attempt to control me because I know the truth". Not "Democrats needs to be killed because they are in favor of higher taxation of the top 3% of Americans".

It really doesn't fit, however many people on DU seems driven to push that square peg in a round hole.

Now I will say that the rehtoric from the right can be a contributing factor. To someone with dellusions it could be a call to arms. While he might not have shot the Congresswoman out of any ideology it could have contributed. On the other hand it is entirely possible he doesn't even know Palin. He may have see "the government" was coming to his grocery store and that collided with his delusion. Either he would need to accept the government wasn't out to get him or he would need to "defend" himself.

[WinkyDink]

40. "it could be a call to arms." "COULD" be. Yes, keep trying to dilute the poison.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cid_B]

50. Could be...

To someone with delusions the guy from the OxiClean ads could be the driving force to a slaughter...

[WiffenPoof]

51. I Completely Agree...

There is a lot of people here that are trying to paint him as a right wing whacko...he may very well be. However, I tend to believe that his enemy was the government (yes, like the RW contends) more than some specific ideology.

-PLA

[Cid_B]

53. Well what fun would that be?

[Laura PourMeADrink]

36. Health Care (aka to them End of Democracy) - Her office was

vandalized for her vote.

[spanone]

38. she was there and so was he. he had the gun. he SHOT HER. no assumption.

[Motown_Johnny]

41. Palin put a cross hair on her district and listed her name. Why not ask why she did that?

Isn't it clear why he would shoot someone once that was done?

[Paladin]

42. We've Already Had A Du'er Griping About Her Poor 2nd Amend. Voting Record

If one of our own "Democrats" feels free to gripe about the Congresswoman's stance on guns---within 24 hours of the shooting---why should we be surprised if a gun-wielding lunatic puts a bullet through her head and leaves her fighting for her life? "Blue dog" my ass......

[begin_within]

43. Because he was instructed to target her by the right-wing noise machine.

[freeplessinseattle]

46. yeah, bet he was a well informed voter

and not the lowest common denominator that such tasteless rhetoric appeals to.

[rbnyc]

47. Personally, I can't tell you anything about the shooter's...

...motivations. Maybe he was inspired by the hate rhetoric, maybe he wasn't. That doesn't relieve Palin, Beck, etc. from their responsibility for putting these violent messages out there and helping to create this toxic culture. Their culpability does not hang on the motivations of the shooter. They are guilty of adding to a culture of violence whether the shooter was directly, indirectly or not motivated by the cross-hairs and the directive to reload.

I really don't know anything about the shooter. But I do know that Palin, Beck, Fox and the right-wing hate machine has created an atmosphere where there are people who think the shooter was justified.

Here's one example from a New York Times user, "As far as I know congresswoman Giffords was a big advocate of illegal alien rights. Same illegals that come to USA and kill and rob Americans everyday. And that is somehow not violence, not crime and does not cause all the left wing hysteria in the news. Perhaps, someone got fed up with inability to find justice by any other means. As US Economy crumbles violence against the corrupt anti-American politicians will become more common"

(http://community.nytimes.com/comments/www.nytimes.com/2011/01/10/us/politics/10giffords.html)

I know many of us are deeply angry at the shooter, but it is natural and not inappropriate to direct our outrage at these harmful social role models, whose messages have invaded our senses so pervasively for so long. Their impact is real. This tragedy becomes a focal point, and perhaps takes on greater meaning than may have been intended by anyone who was there. But it takes on that meaning because it needs to be taken on. Palin is guilty.

[DiverDave]

56. He was MADE by these hate mongers

god damn!, every freaking day the imagery and the vitriol are non stop!

This poor guy (yes, I feel sorry for him) believed the hateful spewing.
If he NEVER heard it, I'd be very surprised.

[Cid_B]

57. It all comes down to your own WAG

Wild Ass Guess...

No one knows but is damn bound and determined to make that peg fit that hole.

[walldude]

59. You pretty much answered your own question..

He wasn't motivated by them, he's a lunatic. What they did, was give him a target for his rage.

[lifesbeautifulmagic]

60. for fucks sake

it doesn't matter whether the shooter was healthy or ill, a teabagger or an anarchist, what matters is

ALL THE HATE RHETORIC IS COMING FROM ONE SIDE

ALL THE VICTIMS ARE ON THE OTHER SIDE

See how that works. Certain groups, media pundits, and elected officials have made being a (snarl) liberal or a (sneer) democrat something lower than dirt and have repeatedly suggest that the way to deal with them is by shooting, elimination or what the fuck ever.

[HuckleB]

61. She voted for HCR, and she criticized the AZ immigration law.

That put her on their hate list, and big time.

[Odin2005]

62. She is Jewish, and to the RW ALL Dems are Evil Communists,

[slackmaster]

64. Because he's a nut jobbie

This really isn't very hard to figure out.

[Agent William]

65. The simplest answer is usually the right one...

She was the nearest Demoratic to where the terrorist lived. In other words it was out of convienence; he didn't want to go far to find someone who was more progressive. This kid was probably so brainwashed by Rush that any Democrat would do, as I'm sure he thought that the word 'Democrat' and socialalist were
one in the same. I'll bet you anything this kid doesn't know that there's such a thing as a moderate Democrat.