Fox News Compares # of Calories in Michelle Obama's Meal to “Eating a Live Raccoon".

[dixiegrrrrl]

"Wed. The Daily Show, the moment of zen clip features some assclown on Fox News1 stating that Michelle Obama was seen ordering a burger, fries, and a shake, and then likened the number of calories she ingested to "eating a live raccoon. "

Man, they don't even try to hide their racism. Absolutely disgusting.

Link to above site and clip:

http://www.balloon-juice.com/2011/07/14/fox-news-compares-number-of-calories-in-michelle-obamas-meal-to-eating-a-live-raccoon/

Is it just me or is the racism becoming louder of late?

[JoePhilly]

1. Sounds like what the average Tea Partier eats regularly.

[RegieRocker]

81. They like posseum.

Posse um. Hang em high!

[Marrah_G]

2. They don't even try to hide it.

I'm shocked they didn't suggest watermelon as a better alternative..... The Teabagger movement has made racism a lot more open, imho.

[SpiralHawk]

3. Fox (R) should go back to bugging the 9/11 victims for exploitation and profit

and leave America's First Lady alone.

Did they ever do any stories on Dime Bag Laura? I thot not.

[ejpoeta]

4. I am pretty sure eating a raccoon would be a very lean meal, like venison

vs cow or something. but i don't eat raccoon so.... I just have to say.... they must have nothing on her to be bitching about something as petty as this.

[enlightenment]

9. Maybe live racoons have more fat?

The idiocy never stops at that place . . .

[LuvNewcastle]

12. I've known people who have eaten coon.

They say it's greasy. I don't know what coons eat, but it must be something very fatty.

[PoliticAverse]

18. As I've seen what Racoons eat I'd never eat a racoon. n/t

[petronius]

118. Raccoons are pretty tough - I think you'd probably burn more calories

getting the thing down than you'd gain from eating it. (Not to mention the weight loss from spilled blood and chewed-off body parts...) :)

[myrna minx]

5. I hope that channel crashes and burns. It's a cancer. n/t

[My Good Babushka]

6. Why a "live raccoon"?

Does it have more calories when you eat it alive? That doesn't make any sense.

[madrchsod]

10. black people do`t cook their food because they are animals...

have you ever seen a raccoon cooking out? i know i have`t!


just when ya think fox news could get any lower somehow they manage to do so...

[pipi_k]

23. Really?

Black people don't cook their food?

Who said that?

[Swede]

91. It's a dog whistle to Fox's racist listeners.

[madrchsod]

100. oh crap... i forgot the watermelon.....

i grew up in the 50`s where i heard all this shit out in the open. now it`s "acceptable" again.

[izquierdista]

16. Emphasis on the second syllable

Couldn't tease a racial epithet out of it if you used the word 'opossum'.

[Sal Minella]

30. Precisely. In print, this conversation is not particularly

offensive -- aurally, all the RW racists would "get it."

[Gormy Cuss]

55. Amazingly unsubtle, isn't it? n/t

[WinkyDink]

65. Thank you. Was just about to post this.

[pipi_k]

70. Yeah, because everyone knows...

that the way we learned to speak the word in first grade was totally wrong.


It's not "ra-coon"

It's really "ra- coon"


:eyes:

[pipi_k]

7. Did I miss something?

Do only blacks eat raccoon?

I didn't know the answer to that so I googled. Nowhere did I see that there's some sort of racial preference for raccoon meat.

While searching, I came upon this article

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2009/01/13/59566/the-other-dark-meat-raccoon-is.html


Seems raccoon meat is finding a niche for itself. In Missouri, anyway.


Can someone point to where raccoon meat is purely an African American delicacy?

[demmiblue]

15. I think it is more about the raccoon reference (coon).

From wikipedia:

Coon

(U.S, U.K and Australia) a black person. Possibly from Portuguese barracão, a building constructed to hold slaves for sale (1837).<51><52> Popularized by the song "Zip Coon", played at Minstrel shows in the 1830s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_slurs


I can't believe that they get away with this shite. :puke:

[pipi_k]

21. So raccoon is a bad word now?

Because part of it refers to the structures used to hold slaves prior to sale?


It's not like someone called her a "coon".

Her diet was compared to raccoon meat.


What I can't believe is how many people can take something innocuous and create something evil from it.

[Sal Minella]

26. That was not innocuous, dear heart. That was racism pure and

simple, a distillation in its purest form.

If the reference were to racoon meat, they would have said "raw racoon."

racoon, eaten "alive," manages to successfully, directly suggest cannibalism -- surely you cannot be blind to this. Nobody is that dense.

I find your wide-eyed "part of it refers to the structures used to hold slaves prior to sale" comment absurd beyond all comprehension.

[pipi_k]

38. Eating a live raccoon does NOT

"suggest cannibalism".

Cannibalism is the practice whereby humans eat the flesh of their own species.

Last I knew, a raccoon was a whole different species, so let's not even go there with "cannibalism".



and please...prove to me that blacks do not cook their meat, and therefore the reference to live raccoon was "racist".

[Sal Minella]

41. "Live coon" suggests cannibalism.

Certainly you can't be unaware that "coon" is a racist epithet?

Nobody is that ignorant of American History. Well, Palin maybe. And Bachmann, of course.

[pipi_k]

47. Read. The. OP.

Listen to the clip.

He did not say live "coon"

He said "live RACCOON.


RACCOON RACCOON RACCOON RACCOON


You know? The omnivorous nocturnal animal native to North America...

[Recursion]

35. So, out of the entire animal kingdom, they randomly picked one of the few animals...

...whose name corresponds to a racial epithet?

It's the sort of thing that even if it were unintentional somebody should have caught. Sort of like if they talked about Bill Clinton eating his weight in crackers, maybe.

[pipi_k]

42. You know, it wouldn't have mattered...

They could have said "chicken" or "horse" or "cow" or "pig" and the resulting outrage would have been the same.

any live animal would have been ammunition for the finger-pointers to jump up and down and screech about the racial undertones of raw animals, cannibalism, and god only knows what else.

I don't know. Maybe it's just me, but my focus isn't on the fact that the Obamas are black. I mean, to me, they are just people. So it really makes me wonder why there's all this obsessing on their color here at DU. Using their color to attack others who may or may not be racists. The trouble is, nobody can tell what's in another person's heart and mind. So the finger-pointers here just lump everybody into one group and call them racists with absolutely NO concrete proof at all. Just their own need to be superior based on political party and who said what.

I'm betting that this same statement about the raccoon, if uttered by a Democrat, would have gone unnoticed. Or excused altogether by the very people slamming it because it came from a Fox News clown.

[Gormy Cuss]

59. If they had said same calories as a chicken or horse

or cow or pig, that would be a slam on her size, but a live raccoon? That's just a bizarre comparison to pull out of one's hat. Bizarre unless it was a puerile attempt to link her with the epithet coon.

I'd take you up on that bet about a Democrat uttering same. It would still be seen as racist because having a (D) after one's name doesn't get one a pass on racism, sexism, or other forms of bigotry.

[pipi_k]

62. If you read further down...

you'll see where someone said he saw trappers skinning a raccoon.

There's a gross layer of fat.

If it's cooked, the fat would probably cook off.

If it's raw or live, the fat will likely still be there. Hence, a correlation between fast food and a live raccoon. Full of fat and calories.

Chickens and horses don't have that same layer of fat, as far as I know. I see raccoons all the time in my yard and some of them are so fat they can hardly walk.

Also...as far as Democrats getting a free pass...

Weinergate.

At least 90% of DUers did NOT believe he did what he was accused of doing, even after suspicious sounding statements. Had he been a Republican, 90% or more would have believed it without question.

I've seen the double standards here too many times.

[Gormy Cuss]

101. Sorry, but that's a giant stretch.

I'd have a much harder time swallowing that explanation than swallowing a live raccoon. Most people in the country have neither dressed a live raccoon nor eaten a dead one. Raccoons aren't used as metaphors for fatty animals in American usage either.

If some said the amount of food she ate weighed as much as a watermelon, that won't be innocuous either.

Some people here do always give Democrats a free pass, but there are many more of us who don't when it comes to sexist, racist, homophonic, classist, or other socially bankrupt remarks.

[WinkyDink]

73. Your defense of FOX by using a conjured example of other animals and Democrats is duly noted.

[NoGOPZone]

78. .

:thumbsup:

[pipi_k]

88. So expecting Democrats to follow the same standard

imposed on others is "defending Fox News"? Being disgusted by hypocrisy is "defending Fox News"?


Only a Freeper type would defend Fox News.

If that's what you're accusing me of being, then at least have the guts to come right out and say it instead of beating around the bush.

And once again...to attack me personally doesn't make your opinion any more valid.

[Occulus]

113. "Only a Freeper type would defend Fox News."

That's exactly what you're doing, up and down, backward and forward, and from side to side.

Who in the blue fuck do you think you're fooling?

[treestar]

107. But they didn't say cow, pig, chicken

They chose Racoon. Come on, this is Fox News we're talking about!

[DocMac]

52. They could have said "live llama"

[pipi_k]

57. No. It would have been racist...

Llama rhymes with Obama.

When people think of llamas, they generally think of the white ones.


If the Fox News Clown said "llama", he would still be a racist because of the rhyming and the absolute "fact" that he's trying to get them to eat a white animal because he believes being black is bad.

You see how that works?

;)

[treestar]

111. Fail. They did not use any other word.

Why is that? Why did Fox choose "racoon?"

[WinkyDink]

66. Bwahahahaha! You SERIOUSLY think the BIZARRE choice of "raccoon" was NOT because of "coon"??!

ON FOX TV???

DO you buy many bridges?

[pipi_k]

69. Well then, I guess there's no point in going on, is there?

There couldn't possibly be any other explanation...like the fact that raccoons have an incredibly thick layer of fat under their skins which would likely have as many calories and fat as a fast food meal.

Nope.

The ONLY explanation is, of course, that there's some huge plot at Fox News to use words with double meanings.

Yeah, Fox News are weasels. But that doesn't mean they're guilty of every single thing DUers want to accuse them of.


Anyway, I just wanted to mention that trying to make someone look stupid ("DO you buy many bridges?") does absolutely nothing to make your point more valid.

[WinkyDink]

72. Americans do not generally eat RACCOONS. This "makes sense" only ONE way.

So yes, your persistence in defense of FOX (What? Too "lean" of a food-source for their example?!) is futile.

[Ignis]

84. Why are you falling over yourself to defend this dog whistle?

:shrug:

C'mon, it's not like this is the first time FAUX has pulled such a stunt.

[pipi_k]

90. I'm not defending a "dog whistle"

as much as pointing out that not EVERY unfortunate word is a deliberate attempt to send some kind of secret message out to their followers.

Sometimes people just say stupid or bizarre things with no ill intent whatsoever.

Does anyone here know this guy personally? Can anyone here read his mind?


What this all reminds me of is a relative of mine who is slightly disturbed, mentally and emotionally. She sees snubs, slights, and insults in the most innocent of places and words. She gets pissed off at people for things she THINKS they meant. Over and over and over again.

Trying to calm her down is almost a full time job.

Yeah, so people here see the word "raccoon" and it's instant outrage over a "racist" remark which couldn't even exist unless the man called it "coon" meat (which he didn't).

I've known people who didn't have a mean bone in their bodies who just managed to always say the most unfortunate things because they weren't thinking.

But to call this a "dog whistle"...

I have to say this...it seems like Obama's race is a dog whistle for a lot of DUers who have no problem at all USING his race to attack others for the most trivial of reasons.

Raccoon is NOT a racist word.

COON is.

[Ignis]

94. So we shouldn't take into account the niggardly* praise FAUX gives to the Obamas?

While the word "raccoon" itself might not be inherently racist, it's certainly a dog whistle in this context. Words are powerful weapons, and no one knows this better than the media. Taking a "gee-whiz" view of FAUX's motives here is either incredibly naive or willfully ignorant of how the Right Wing Smear Machine operates.

* = Used intentionally for effect. Would you also be willing to give FAUX a pass if they used this word in any context to describe the Obamas' actions? Again, the word itself isn't racist, but the context is everything. Hence, the dog whistle.

[dixiegrrrrl]

97. Anyone who lives in the South understood clearly what was said.

Trust me on that.

[treestar]

106. We are taking into account that it was Fox news

And reading some motive into it, which isn't hard to do. They could have chosen any number of edible animals - why'd they pick that one?

Fox News does lots of subliminal stuff - like their errors when badly behaving Republicans get a "D" after their name.

[NoGOPZone]

28. Yes nt

[Recursion]

33. "raccoon" has a troubled racial past (think "coon") (nt)

[Incitatus]

85. Why are they even talking about what she ate for lunch in the first place?

How is that news?

[checks-n-balances]

8. The knuckledraggers are in charge of too much media

Proof positive that Fox media has not shame or scruples.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

11. Disrespectful to the First Lady

[otohara]

117. Sheila Jackson Lee

is right on...there's a reason why they treat this president and first lady witch such disrespect.

They're Democrats, first and foremost. They treated Clinton like he was a country bumpkin and his wife was an evil witch.
With the Obama's, they can't even hide their racism, as demonstrated in this FOX segment.

[Frustratedlady]

13. I'm taking your word for it because I can't watch. FOX should be kicked off our airwaves!

This is totally disgusting. How the Obamas can continue to take the high road after the horrendous treatment they have received from these radicals is beyond me.

Our country is contaminated with their hatred and racism. I am so angry.

[madrchsod]

14. well... they did miss watermelons and 40`s...

yup, the racist`s have their own news network

[lpbk2713]

17. Faux is really becoming a satire of legitimate news outlets.

It actually appears they don't even want to try to be taken seriously any more.

[get the red out]

19. They needed to keep it familiar

I guess they needed to keep it to some familiar foods for their core audience.

The thing is, if a republican were eating that it would be touted as the all AmuriKKKun meal.

[reformist2]

20. It's actually anti-racist baiting. They do it to annoy us and drive us crazy.

We need to treat them like the obnoxious adolescents they are. Instead of accusing them of being racist, scold them for thinking that making racist jokes is funny.

[WatsonT]

22. I don't know if that's racism so much as just bizarre

I haven't heard of any stereotypes involving black people eating live racoons. If they'd measured it in watermelons and fried chicken, well obviously. But this is just weird.

Also wouldn't a live raccoon have fewer calories net than a dead one? I imagine some would be burned in the struggle as well as in healing all the wounds you'd incur.

[pipi_k]

24. That was my thought as well...

just sort of bizarre but not racist.

I don't know the calorie content of a raccoon, live or dead, although I do know that it's called "the other dark meat".

uuuhhhh....OK

now I get it...

the other dark meat!!!!!


aughhhhhhh!!!! Those RACISTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!


sigh...

:eyes:

[Sal Minella]

36. I think you're over-thinking this.

You don't need to venture beyond the "coon" part of "racoon" to harvest the implication.

[pipi_k]

39. Sometimes thinking is a good idea...

instead of...you know...reacting to a word based on the need to believe someone else is a "racist" and therefore an evil piece of shit.

[Sal Minella]

40. You're absolutely right.

I think the Talking Head at Fox who said this is absolutely an evil piece of shit.

Not a shadow of a doubt, here.

[pipi_k]

46. And he's an evil piece of shit...

for what reason, exactly?


Has he molested a bunch of little kids? Burned down his grandma's house? Killed puppies? Raped little old ladies?

What makes him an evil piece of shit?

[CleanGreenFuture]

53. His willingness to work at Fox and call black people "coons". That's what.

He used the word "raccoon". That was a dog-whistle to Fox viewers.

[pipi_k]

60. I hate to say it, but...

the word "raccoon" seems to be a huge dog whistle for many DUers as well.


As for where he works...it's a free country, last I heard. Although you wouldn't be able to tell from the shit that gets said here sometimes.


But you know...he wouldn't have a job and Fox News might not exist if so many people...Democrats included...didn't pay attention to what was said there.

So keep spewing the outrage. Any Freeper trolls who might lurk here will read and start paying even MORE attention to Fox News just because it pisses off so many here.

Just like books that people might otherwise not have read...ban them...give them attention...and all of a sudden everybody wants to read them to find out why they're so bad.

[CleanGreenFuture]

63. I'm not outraged in the least. But you sure seem to be. If you don't know

the history of the word "coon" as it applies to black people, that's not my fault.

[pipi_k]

68. I'm not outraged, I'm disgusted

that people can take just about anything and turn it around to suit their purposes.

And I've known the history of the word"coon" for quite some time, thanks very much.


Claiming that the word "coon" was used is false.

It was NOT "coon". It was "raccoon".

[Name removed]

75. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[demmiblue]

79. .

:eyes:

[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[emilyg]

93. +10

[WatsonT]

74. That's quite a stretch

[Obamanaut]

25. Raccoon ('coon) hunters all have stories about how fierce/dangerous

a raccoon is when treed. If the 'coon dog is foolish enough to jump into the water after the quarry, it becomes extremely hazardous to the health of said dog.

Is it remotely possible that the ordering of burger, fries, and shake was being compared to the hazard (to the health) of a treed (and therefore live) raccoon?

Just maybe?

[Sal Minella]

29. No. n/t

[Obamanaut]

31. Not even remotely? Because you are a 'decider'? nt

[Sal Minella]

32. Because I am old and because apparently I have been exposed

to a lot more insidious racial slurring than you have, or at least I have become much more sensitive to racial insinuations and insults than you apparently are.

This is nothing against you. You'll learn to hear them if you pay attention.

[pipi_k]

44. And there is the answer...

to the question of what this quote means...


"We see things not as they are but as we are"


What you have seen may not be how things REALLY are.


In order for you to know absolutely what the truth is in this case, you would have to ask the person who made that remark about the raccoon what he meant by it.


Lots of speculation going on in here by many people, but nobody knows the absolute truth. The sad thing is, though...I imagine (although hope that it wouldn't be true) that even if the Fox News Clown explained about the raccoon statement, that still wouldn't be good enough for some who, for some strange reason, just HAVE to see racism in everything.

sad.

[treestar]

108. Fox news?

:shrug:

[spanone]

27. classy like a turd in a punchbowl

[Saphire]

34. why would you compare ANYTHING with "eating a LIVE racoon except

eating any other LIVE animal?

Asshats.

[Renew Deal]

37. Are there people eating live racoons?

Or even dead ones?

[LuvNewcastle]

43. There are definitely people who eat dead ones.

My formative years were spent in rural Mississippi, and I knew several people who, on occasion, ate coons. They always said "coon," never "raccoon." They had "coon" dogs and they went "coon" hunting. Some were white, some were black. The main thing people who eat coons have in common is poverty. While the word "coon" is sometimes used as a racial slur, it isn't all that common -- most people who use racial slurs say {n}.

[pipi_k]

45. Actually there are...

I posted a link up above where some guy out in Missouri has a business selling raccoon meat.

Seems lots of people eat it. And enjoy it.

Don't know if they eat it cooked or raw, and don't know if they're black or white, and I don't care.

:)

[Renew Deal]

48. Racoon tartar

:9

[Zorra]

51. I've eaten raccoon, (cooked, of course).

I ate it with some local red neck coon hunters somewhere in the Florida Everglades where I was camping.

I watched them skin and butcher the coon. The carcass had a really gross layer of fat.

They cooked it on a campfire. It was really greasy and tasted absolutely horrible.

[pipi_k]

56. Well see that makes sense...

If it's covered in a layer of fat, then eating a live/raw one would probably have as many calories as a fast food meal does.

[Zorra]

71. Yeah, but I doubt that a Fox media whore knows about raccoon fat.

Although I see your point, I can't help, because of the dishonest nature of Fox News and their history of deliberate "faux pas", suspect that this was a deliberate slur.

There is a good chance this was playing to their base audience, an audience that is most likely primarily comprised of conservative racist, homophobic bigots.

They could have just have easily said "eat a live possum" which is even fattier than a raccoon, but I doubt they know that about possums as well.

[pipi_k]

83. Well I guess that makes me stupider than a Fox News whore...

because I didn't know until someone else mentioned it that raccoons had that much gross fat, even though I see them in my yard all the time. I also didn't know that possums are fattier than raccoons.

:shrug:

[Zorra]

96. Most people in this day and age probably don't know about that.

It doesn't make them stupider than a Fox News media whore.

I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

[dembotoz]

76. had raccoon for than thankgiving dinner years ago-like early70's

kansas city ks.

ate with an inner city family. Someone got it hunting?????
I remember the people were really nice for sharing with us.
I remember i had a wonderful time and the food was good.
Do not remember anything about the raccoon other than that it was an
item on the table and i must have sampled it.

Actually one of the more meaningful holidays i have ever had.

I think of it and i smile.

[McCamy Taylor]

49. You think "eating a live raccoon" is something Fox viewers can relate to?

[pipi_k]

54. Actually, that's an interesting thought...

Maybe the Fox News Clown was covertly insulting (in his opinion) stupidass redneck fuckers who live in white trash trailer parks who would be familiar with roadkill stew and live raccoon burgers?

[WinkyDink]

77. No; he was insulting viewers who thought he was serious about raccoon meat.

[pipi_k]

82. Once again...

never another possibility. Only the one that backs up the prejudice against a guy none of us knows personally.

The guy works for Fox News and that's good enough for people to presume to know what he REALLY meant.

[lapislzi]

89. Coded language is coded language, regardless of who utters it.

If he had been a presenter on a "progressive" news network (if such a thing existed), it would still be coded language. And I firmly believe that there are few accidents and even fewer coincidences.

[pipi_k]

103. Coded language is only coded language

to those who are looking for it.


Sort of like the RW religious nutcases who think they see pornography in kids' cartoons.

Or when the same people "see" Jesus in bagels and dog turds.

[McCamy Taylor]

50. Maybe Fox is trying to distract us from their hacking scandal?

[pipi_k]

58. Hah! The shiny object ploy!

Yep...I wouldn't doubt it one bit.

People are here getting outraged over a fucking live raccoon. Meanwhile there's this scandal going on.

Not to mention the trivial issue of the debt ceiling...


:+

[Dont_Bogart_the_Pretzel]

61. Who cares what Fox does or says anymore?

[Atman]

64. They hacked into the raccoon's cell phone.

Seriously, though...why is this "racist?" Just because there's "coon" in there somewhere? Really? It is stupid, it is ridiculous, it is just plain Fox, but racist? Meh.

.

[Whiskeytide]

67. The truly amazing thing...

... is that Faux has created a new show where Dana Perino is the voice of reason. Holy crap!

[lapislzi]

86. Let's not parse this.

Dog whistle, plain and simple. Disgusting, plain and simple. The choice of words was no accident.

[LaydeeBug]

87. Because the caloric intake from a LIVE raccoon is different from a dead one how?

SMH, these buffoons have NO FUCKING CLUE. smh

[ohheckyeah]

102. How would one go about eating

a live raccoon? Tie it up and hack parts off it?

[ecstatic]

92. She works out every day and therefore can afford to have such treats

once in a while. Uggh I'll be so glad when FNC is off the air! Please Holder, investigate!!

[treestar]

110. Exactly!

What business is it of theirs, anyway? And she can advocate healthy eating and have this kind of treat from time to time.

Just so stupid. That's Fox for you.

[Blue-Jay]

95. A live raccoon would likely tear your face off if you tried to chew on it.

Fuck that!

[Fire1]

98. It's been loud to us since the campaign of 2008. n/t

[fascisthunter]

99. Fox News... spreading bigotry

what a vile organization...

[pa28]

104. This is not some dumb unscripted comment.

He's reading from a teleprompter so apparently this went through some kind of editorial process (well it's Fox so maybe not) but he certainly had some time to think about the words.

There's nothing accidental about it.

[dixiegrrrrl]

105. Very little of Fox's comments are dumb & unscripted.

The relentless dog whistles, bigotry, racism, all of the right wing lies and distortions is carefully spoon fed to a very gullible audience.
Like McCarthy, they seem to have no sense of decency.

[pipi_k]

109. Well OK so you said "very little"

of their comments are dumb and unscripted.

That must mean that some of them are.


This could be one of those few times when a comment was dumb and unscripted and totally off the cuff and off the wall bizarre.


Is that not possible?

[dixiegrrrrl]

112. see the video. It clearly is meant as a broadcast statement

since the person is looking into a camera, reading from a teleprompter, and speaking to the audience.
Most dumb and unscripted comments are when a group of Fox folks are sitting around talking with each other.

EOM.

[krispos42]

114. Where did they think she was eating? The Roadkill Café?

[Name removed]

115. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bobthedrummer]

116. The Day of the Rainbow Coalition of Racists is here, it's always been here. Kick, n/t