The Democratic Party should break with capitalism itself.

[The Big Vetolski]

There has been much wailing and gnashing of teeth lately about the latest crisis of capitalism, which is, really, the impending collapse of our entire financial system. For far too long, corporations and financial institutions have been allowed to merge and grow larger and larger, giving more wealth and power into the hands of fewer and fewer people. The system is top-heavy, and about to topple.

Firms like JP Morgan(ie Jamie Dimon), Goldman-Sachs(ie Bernanke and Geitner), the oil companies, and huge media conglomerates such as News Corp(ie Rupert Murdoch) have become too big to exist. They have WAY too much power over our allegedly democratically elected politicians. The ratings agencies, which exist only to pad their own pockets, threaten to downgrade government bonds and our politicians run around like frightened chickens when a fox is spotted on the farm.

Our leaders ask how to save this system, and then demand that the rest of us must sacrifice in order to do so. I ask, why should we? Why not let it come crashing down? Let the financial system crash, let Wall Street destroy itself! The end of the current economic system? GOOD!

It's time to try something else. The Democratic Party should be advocating that the federal and state governments should do whatever is necessary for improving the lives of the American people, not worrying about saving the likes of Jamie Dimon or catering to Standard & Poor's. Let them fail. Seize their assets, redistribute ill-gotten wealth to the majority of citizens, set up a more regional, decentralized, and democratic economic system that actually serves the needs of the people and not these legalized fictions called corporations. Let the shareholders howl. Besides, the rich will be just fine. They always are, unless a really violent revolution and civil war comes along and even then, most of them do just fine.

The Democratic Party needs to go back to its roots, not just FDR's New Deal and LBJ's Great Society, but to the principles of Jefferson and Jackson that distrusted banks and centralized wealth and power.

Is that possible? In the coming financial upheaval, I think it not only possible but necessary. But only if rank-and-file Democrats, third partiers, and independents unite and demand it.

"Banking institutions are as dangerous as standing armies."
--Thomas Jefferson

[Critters2]

1. I'm a member of two Socialist orgs and the Democratic Party.

I'm with you all the way!

[Puregonzo1188]

2. The Democratic Party is a capitalist party and always has been--I don't see this changing.

[Justina For Justice]

48. Capitalism Is Destroying our Lives and Our Planet....

it must be replaced with an economic system that puts the needs and development of human beings ahead of profits for a few big corporations!

Time to take back the Democratic Party from the DLC-Third Wave Republicans and fight for a human society.

[Dappleganger]

3. Agreed, but I doubt it will ever happen.

[The Big Vetolski]

6. You might be right. Smart money would bet your way. But you may

be wrong, too. A guy can dream, can't he? :)

[Dappleganger]

14. So can a girl...

but I am tired of having my hopes and dreams trampled on by big corporations in collusion w/those we put in office.

[mike_c]

4. agreed 100 percent-- I would like to see the democratic party morph...

...into something approaching the democratic socialism movements in Europe. I love the motto of one of the Danish parties-- I can't remember the party's real name at the moment, but the slogan is paraphrased as "There should be few people with too much, and even fewer with too little."

[MineralMan]

17. What are you doing to make that happen?

It's a good idea, but I don't see any progress in that direction. So, what's your plan to get that morphing started?

[The Big Vetolski]

22. Supporting people like Bernie Sanders, Dennis Kucinich, and...

Pete Difazio would be a good start. But there would have to be a movement, a political force, behind it as well. We could take a page from the Tea Party's book there. Not their pathetic ideology, of course, but certainly their enthusiasm.

[MineralMan]

30. Oh dear. I thought I asked what you were doing, not what

you thought would be a good start.

If you want it, you have to do it. If there's no movement, start one. If there's no political force, build one. If there's no equivalent to the Tea Party, get yourself a misspelled sign and take it to a public place. That's what the Tea Partiers did.

No, I asked you what you were doing. Apparently nothing, since you did not offer any examples.

There is is. If you want something, you have to do something.


Me? I want to elect good, progressive people to office. What I do is to participate in the nomination process through Minnesota's caucus and convention system, then walk an entire precinct and talk to everyone I can in that precinct for a couple of months before each election. That's what I do. You know what? It works. All the elected state and national office-holders from my districts are strong progressives.

[mike_c]

26. supporting liberals and third party candidates mainly in hopes...

...that the democratic party will move left if they see support for those positions, but I don't really have any hope for it. I have not had actual political representation in this country during my lifetime, at least not at the state and federal level. My regional community is quite liberal and there are are lots of local greens and liberal independents in office in the region (as well as some pretty conservative cowboy types-- it's a diverse community).

I give money to real liberal candidates and I vote for them. I'm vice president of my local union and I meet with state legislators, as well as other stakeholders, to advocate for liberal causes (mostly labor driven issues in that case). I'm also grievance officer for my union chapter-- not a political role as such, but it's inevitably linked to a liberal perspective, I suspect. My socialism is deeply linked to labor matters in my professional life.

And of course I send letters and phone calls to legislators, the WH and the governor's office.

[MineralMan]

32. Good job! You're doing something in aid of your goals.

Keep it up.

[socialist_n_TN]

5. Unfortunately guys, I don't think that it will happen

The Democratic Party IS a bourgeoisie party, so it's entire investment is in the current SYSTEM. Now, I could see it trying to put some pretty heavy reforms on capitalism like they did in the 30s, but ONLY under HEAVY pressure from inside the party AND pressure from the LEFT of the Democratic Party too outside of the system. But the reforms, just like in the 30s, would be to try and SAVE the system, not overthrow it.

[The Big Vetolski]

10. I understand where you're coming from, believe me. But...

What happens when the current system falls apart? Which it will. It's happening as we speak. The Democratic Party must then either change and adapt or go the way of the Whigs. This is DU, and I was raised by New Deal Democrats, so I offer a way for it to survive, albeit not in its current form or prevailing ideology.

[JHB]

7. You have a tin ear

I understand your point, even though I'd argue with it.

But you've just headlined it in ways guaranteed to be massively rejected.
Newt Gingrich could win against a Democrat who framed it the way you have.

[Marrah_G]

8. Unfortunately most of the people in the party with any power....

are already owned by the corporations.

[NeedleCast]

9. Nah, we should probably avoid doing things that will insure no democrat ever gets elected again

[The Big Vetolski]

11. You assume most Americans are committed capitalists.

I disagree with that assertion.

[NeedleCast]

13. I'm pretty comfortable with that assumption

Until main stream America (that is, people who are not political junkies like most people on DU) actually understand socialism and maybe more to the point, a mixed economy that uses both socialistic parts and captitalistic parts, you'd be dead in the water. It's why the conservatives are able to brandish words like Socialism so effectivly when trying to paint Democratic candidates as anti-American.

(That, and the huge volume of evidence that most Americans are pro-capitalist).

[MineralMan]

16. It's an easy assumption to make, you know.

Why? Because it's a correct assumption. You appear to be projecting your own beliefs onto the majority of the population of the US. In doing so, you're sidestepping reality.

The majority of US citizens who are adults think capitalism is just fine. They don't like some corporations, but they like others just fine. They shop at corporate stores. They work at jobs in the corporate world, for the most part. Remember, even small businesses can be incorporated, and most are. The only economic system they know is based on corporate principles.

What on Earth makes you think that a majority of people in this country are even close to anti-corporate thinking?

This kind of projection accomplishes nothing and distracts from the real-world stuff that we all have to deal with. If you started today, it would take decades to even begin to teach the US population to understand what you're talking about.

We all have to operate in a real environment. We can think about other possible environments, but we must operate in the one that exists. To attempt to do otherwise is to marginalize yourself into obscurity. It is the height of irrelevancy.

[fivepennies]

25. Projecting one's own beliefs

on others seems to be the #1 national passtime.

I think more people understand the basic workings of capitalism and understand what its done to them than you might suppose. Its pretty simple, really.

Who provides capital - private corporations. Who do they provide it to - other corporations. The trickle down must, by the very nature of the beast, eventually dry up. And it has.

Capital, as we know it, stifles private enterprise whenever some upstart comes into competition with the inside corporations. That's why the banking system promotes "prime rates" and "most favored nation trade status". All they while they're pompously chanting about the wonders of free enterprise and free trade, they're making sure, by their control of who gets the capital, that enterprise and trade will always be anything but free.

Its that "as we know it" part that has to change. But some of the best lines devised to prevent people from thinking that way are:

"its always been this way so we have to operate within that structure"
"No one knows any different so it has to stay that way"
"Who has a better way?"
"It would take decades to get people to understand"
"You have to live in the real world"

Boxy thinking.

[MineralMan]

29. And yet, there is no national education program to teach

what you're saying. So, there is no progress. It's easier for people to assume that people know all this stuff and complain about it.

It's stupid and boring. If you have something you want done, you have to take the necessary steps. Posting complaints on DU about it is pretty much not one of those steps. Truly.

[fivepennies]

34. Sure

and why is there no national program to teach this information ... ask yourself, who would provide this national education? Wouldn't that be our leaders who must also depend on privately issued capital to fund their allegedly public capitol?

So what are the necessary steps that I need to take? Even those in high public office who know what needs to happen are openly denigrated and despised for telling the truth by mouth pieces with microphones who speak only for corporate interests.

The problem lies in the fact that it doesn't matter how many people know what's going on, it could be 99% and the whores in the media will TELL them that no one else knows it. Isolation is the goal. And the news makers know how to keep their audience feeling helpless and isolated.

[MineralMan]

39. why do YOU need to educate people?

For the very reason you mention: because nobody else will. If you don't bother to do that, then you are irrelevant to the process of change. If you are irrelevant, then why should anyone bother to talk to you?

Complaining does nothing. It only vents your frustration. Working hard toward a goal does something. You choose.

[fivepennies]

46. I tell people about it every chance I get

and have been doing that for over three decades. Unfortunately, that's all I get to do about it. You will have to get in line with all those others who thought I was irrelevant and who refused to talk with me. I've survived it. And you'd be surprised at how many who once did that subsequently admitted that I was right. Of course I'm not half as influential as

Louis McFadden, Chairman of the Banking and Currency Committee for more than 10 years who said on the house floor way back in 1934:

"This evil institution has impoverished and ruined the people of these United States, has bankrupted itself, and has practically bankrupted our Government. It has done this through the defects of the law under which it operates, through the maladministration of that law by the Fed and through the corrupt practices of the moneyed vultures who control it."

If you'd like to know what else he said about fixing their money system:

http://home.hiwaay.net/~becraft/mcfadden.html

It has ocurred to me that you have a strong tendency to throw the onus onto anyone who disagrees with you about the worth of working within a broken system to fix this busted economy. But its so obvious that as long as we play by their rules they will win because they can and do change the rules whenever it looks like we might win a small point.

I'll probably be out of here before the real pain kicks in, so there's not much frustration on my own behalf, but some of you folks will suffer. It would be really good if they knew why.

[socialist_n_TN]

47. So you don't think advocating on DU, Facebook

and other Internet media is educating? I beg to differ. Because of dedicated educational work by socialists on this page, this left leaning Dem site has gone from about 33% self avowed "socialists" to 60% self avowed "socialist" in the space of two years. That's based on admittedly unscientific DU polls. But the TREND in EVERY ONE OF THESE POLLS has been going in the socialist direction for two years now.

And from what I can see, there are HUGE amounts of average people that have a problem with the way capitalism is presented in this country. Are they Communists or even socialists? Probably not. Yet. But that's where the education comes in. It takes a while for educational and agitational efforts to kick in. But it IS a fact that HUGE majorities in ALL of the polls hold beliefs that are "leftish". Those beliefs are what every Republican calls socialism.

[MineralMan]

51. No, I don't. DU is preaching to the choir. Everyone here is

knowledgeable about politics, even if we don't agree. Facebook is too small an audience. So, no, I don't think those are viable educational efforts.

[socialist_n_TN]

57. We'll have to agree to disagree.........

DU is a left leaning website true and knowledgeable about politics, also true, but it's a pretty big group. And even here, there are a lot of folks that don't (or didn't) know a whole lot about socialism. And if I'm going to advocate for socialism, I'm NOT going to start with teabaggers. I'm going to start with people who are politically CLOSER to the socialist position anyway and try to bring them around. Then take the next step to a more centrist or rightist group. Along with advocating/educating in trade union orgs. Unfortunately, I don't have a lot of outlets there, so I'll have to let others who are better placed to do so, do that educating.

FB is what it is. It seems to have done a lot of good in some other parts of the world as far as organizing goes, so I think that's a viable medium also.

[fivepennies]

52. If I understand what you're saying here

I'd guess that's why we're all here, to learn and to share ideas and opinions.

And I agree that there are huge numbers of people who dislike capitalism, both on DU and just about everywhere else I go. I'm in a rabidly red state so you can guess who I have more one on one time with. The main problem is that people get so hung up on the isms that they refuse to talk with other isms about things they DO agree on. There are many people, even on the right who hate the bankers as much as we do but many of them don't seem to know its fascism that promotes bankers and capitalism. That's the real challenge.

[socialist_n_TN]

56. Well to coin a phrase (not), I feel your pain

I'm in Tennessee. :)

[The Big Vetolski]

31. Just because it's easy does not make it correct. You do realize...

do you not, that when you assume you make an ass out of u and me? Who the hell are you to tell me the majority of US citizens think capitalism is just fine? No, they don't. Most favor some form of universal health care. That's socialist, not capitalist. Most Americans are in favor of at least strong social safety nets. That's at least social democratic, not pure capitalist. Most Americans definitely disagree with the notion that corporations should be treated as natural persons.

I'm lazy, so I'm not going to post a bunch of links to polls that prove my point. But we've all seen them. Use the Google.

Besides, I hear objections to rampant, predatory capitalism every day at work, in the grocery store, in the bars and taverns. Why do you think most Americans don't vote? Because they don't think their vote matters, because they think the system is rigged, that's why.

That's why if the Democratic Party presents a real choice to the current oligarchical order, it will become dominant very quickly. If it doesn't, once the Collapse comes, and it will, something else will become dominant. That should scare the bejeepers out of you.

[NeedleCast]

35. No See, that's not how it works

You're the one making the claim that there are a bunch of links to polls that prove your point. YOU back up your claim. Your lazyness aside, if you have any desire to convert me to your position, you need to prove your position.

The evidence is largely stacked against your argument. If your argument held any water, we wouldn't be having this coversation.

[The Big Vetolski]

36. I don't care whether you agree with me or not, dude. And if my...

argument doesn't hold water, then why try to have a "coversation" in the first place? The Google is your friend. Alternatively, Taegan Goddard's Political Wire is a great source for polls. You have to go into the archives, though.

[NeedleCast]

49. If you don't care whether people agree with you or not, why make a post on a message board?

Like I said, support your argument or GTFO, dude.

Here, let me show you why you're wrong real quick though, because it's Friday and I've pretty much checked out of work already.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/business/general_business/april_2010/60_say_capitalism_better_than_socialism

60% say Capitalism better than socialism

http://www.gallup.com/poll/125645/socialism-viewed-positively-americans.aspx

Socialism viewed positivly by 36% of Americans

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/april_2009/just_53_say_capitalism_better_than_socialism

"Just" 53% say capitalism better than socialism." Even in the best poll numbers I can find supporint socialism, it's still favored by the majority of Americans.

You can look far and wide and while I agree that socialism's popularity in the US is on the rise (a good thing, IMO), there's zero evidence that it's supported by a majority anywhere in the country. You want to post evidence to the contrary, I'll take a look.

Now if you want to have a discussion about what really needs to happen - which is educating Americans on what socialism really means - then I'd be 100% behind you. Thanks to the cold war, most Americans still associate socialism with Marxism or being a communist. They fail to understand that every democracy in the world uses a mix of capitalism and socialism in its fiscal policy.

[fivepennies]

50. You really believe polls?

They don't ask questions in a way that gets the answers they want? They'd never skew the results to show the answers they want?

People say "trust but verify". Well, how in the heck are you going to verify some organization's poll tactics and results?

Why don't you conduct your own random poll? After all, if you really want something done right you have to do it yourself. Whatever happened to yankee ingenuity?

[NeedleCast]

53. Yeah, I figured that's the response I'd get

if the facts don't fit your world view, claim the facts are wrong.

Do you trust in gravity? It's "only" a theory, after all.

If it was one poll saying socialims was not prefered in american, then maybe that would be questionable. But it's not. There are lots of polls, all showing the same basic data, and that that data is that even in a best case scenario, only 1/4 to 1/3 of Americans have a favorable view of socialism. Again, I'll point out that I think the majority of Americans don't understand what you're saying when you ask if they view socilism favorably, but that doesn't change the fact.

I still await you data (or anyone else's) that shows a majority of Americans favoring socialism.

[fivepennies]

58. No, I don't trust polls that I didn't do.

And I agree with you that the majority of Americans don't understand what it means when you ask them anything about socialism. Their preconceived negativity is provided by the same kind of hacks that conducts polls. Its like canned laughter.

I try to stick with issues.

[aquart]

12. Thank you for your concern.

[ItNerd4life]

15. Democratic Economic system? What are you talking about?

Capitilism is democratic, you get to vote whether you buy the goods or not. The problem isn't with capitalism, it's with
the government being bought by corporations. It's a government problem, not an economic model problem.

[Scruffy1]

18. Democracy is not posssible under capitalism.

You can either have great inequality of wealth or you can have democracy. To me at least you have stated the crux of the problem. We all just become consumers with no meaningful choices. In the long run it makes no difference what brand of soap you buy or what car you drive but that is our current scoring system. Besides the very nature of capitalism insures that a small percentage of the population will make the choice of what you do buy and will acumalate most of the wealth.
Have you ever tried to get an hour of a Senators time? Just write a big damn check and you will have his ear.

[The Big Vetolski]

21. Thoughtful reply, and very true. Thanks. nt

[The Big Vetolski]

20. What you're describing is corporatism, not democracy. nt

[baycityMI]

19. good luck with that.

[DevonRex]

23. My eyes should change color with my moods like the people's eyes do In

Paperback novels - the kind the drugstore sells.

[Better Believe It]

24. That's kinda like saying flies should stay away from dog poop!

[Ter]

27. Do you think the DP can win a national election with that view?

I see a 49 state loss.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Big Vetolski]

33. You could be right, but after all, this is DU. Besides, I was also...

advocating for the Democratic Party to go back to SOME of its original, anti-banker, mistrust of business roots. Roots that are older than either capitalism or socialism.

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Big Vetolski]

40. Thank you for taking the time to reply in such detail. Forgive me if I

bookmark it and read it in detail later. I took the day off and have had two James Bond martinis and a couple of beers already, man. I think I should be sober when I read your post.

[TheKentuckian]

38. The party will never do such a thing on it's own.

The only way is out of pure desperation and that means being put into a several cycle change or die period where the only way to capture enough votes to win races would be to adopt different positions.

[The Big Vetolski]

42. You'll get no argument from me on that point, man. However,

I think that time of desperation you speak of is coming faster than many think. In fact, I'll go so far as to say if current trends continue, there will be no election in 2020, and maybe not in 2016. The feces are getting closer and closer to the rotating blades.

[ecstatic]

41. So you want all of our employers to lean republican?

Hmm, that's helpful. :eyes:

[The Big Vetolski]

43. What are you talking about? They already do! nt

[ecstatic]

44. That's not true at all nt

[The Big Vetolski]

45. What are you smoking, and where can I get some? nt

[TBF]

54. I don't think we can expect the democratic party to do that -

but i do agree that capitalism has to go.

[MrScorpio]

55. The problem isn't capitalism, it's CRONY capitalism

The fascist variety.

What we need is to do is have Democracy take our economy over, and regulate capitalism so that it functions in a more humane fashion.