Poverty and the National Budget

[LuvNewcastle]

I had lunch with a friend today and the conversation drifted to a discussion about the economy. He brought up welfare fraud in this discussion and blamed government waste for many of the problems we're facing today. I said that waste was indeed a problem, but there was just as much waste in the military budget as in the human services budget.

After a while, we got to the heart of the matter. He said that due to our debt, America will not be able to continue to give people welfare or food stamps. According to him, the entire budget will have to be cut, including the defense budget, and certain programs will have to be eliminated. I said that no country on Earth that I've ever heard of has gone broke because it cared too much for its poor. But was I right? Are there any examples in human history of a people who were so good to their poor that their society collapsed?

[Daninmo]

1. Waste and fraud

Why not attack the waste and fraud, it's a novel idea that will probably never happen, but it sure would help those who really need some help, instead of cutting them off.

[LuvNewcastle]

3. Sure there's waste and fraud. I'm not denying that.

But as a practical matter, how would you eliminate it in welfare, for instance? They already require proof of residence and proof of income and utility and rent receipts. How is the government to know if this or that person has an, ahem, occupation where they make cash money and don't report it? We could hire more auditors, but by the time we pay more people to audit the other people, we'd probably just as well give them the damn food stamps. It might even be cheaper. If they have proposals to cut out the waste and fraud, bring them forward and we'll see if they work. But don't just sit around and bitch about people you don't like who are getting assistance.

[grasswire]

2. how many "welfare" programs help this fellow?

Tax breaks as a homeowner?

Student loans?

Deductions for interest?

etc. etc.

Does he want law enforcement cut, too? Fire protection? Road repair?

Or would he rather just tax the rich their fair share and do away with corporate welfare?

[LuvNewcastle]

5. I agree, but that isn't really my question.

I sincerely want to know if anyone here can think of a group of people, either in antiquity or in modern history, who ceased to be because they allocated too many resources to their weakest members. If someone can tell me of a nation, tribe, etc. who did this, I'd be glad if they would tell me about it.

[jwirr]

7. I do not think you are going to find any evidence of this. However,

Paul Kennedy wrote "The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers" which gives clear evidence of why empires/powers fall. Military overstretch. They all spent so much on military and world policing that they did not have enough to take care of the needs at home.

[LuvNewcastle]

9. Thanks for the book recommendation.

I'm going to check that out.

[Lyric]

4. Get rid of welfare and America will quickly remember why it exists in the first place.

When you have millions and millions of people who have no food, no shelter, no medicine, no warmth, and no way to care for and protect their children, do you think they're just going to throw up their hands and die quietly? Hell fucking no. They're going to revolt. Your precious guns won't save you, because they'll have guns too--a lot more than you, and with nothing left in this world to lose.

Americans can be SO incredibly stupid sometimes. Tell your friend to read a history book and find out what happens when the poor are forced into a choice between violent revolution and starvation.

[LuvNewcastle]

6. That's the primary reason the government agrees

to make these payments. Heads begin to roll when people get hungry.

[jwirr]

8. Agreed and it is even more likely now since the last Depression

most people lived in rural areas. Today most live in overcrowded cities.