Know what I'd do if I wanted to commit a notorious crime and get off with an insanity defense?

[Joe the Revelator]

I'd make a small Youtube channel and a myspace page my only web presence. I'd make 3 or 4 crazy ass text only videos.

Then I'd make my profile on myspace and youtube complete gibberish.

Then, when I'm tried in the court of public opinion in the immediate aftermath of the crime, instead of being a racist jerk-off on a mission, I'm just a crazy guy, doing crazy guy things. Put me in a hospital instead of a jail.

Jared Loughner might have been crazy like a fox.

[cali]

1. I doubt it. It's actually not that easy.

[lonestarnot]

4. What people are already falling for it and they could be possible jurists.

[musette_sf]

5. oh, I don't know,

for all we know there could be a Schiz-O-Matic app where you plug in your basic message and get a randomized schizo rant back.

seriously, there's any amount of paranoid rants on the Interwebz that someone smart could devise a convincing word salad from.

[Cid_B]

6. But.. but.. but..

I saw it on the CSI : LVNYCSVC!!!!!

It must be true!

[cali]

14. I worked with people with severe and persistent mental illness

for almost a decade. I spent untold hours with people in a psychotic state. I've read 100s of pages of psychotic ramblings. I had an office in the State Psychiatric Hospital. So, no I didn't get it from CSI or the TV. Sorry, dear.

[Uben]

20. Bless you Cali

My wife is a retired mental health counselor. She too dealt with people with problems others cannot fathom.....gang rape and murder and the like. While she has been retired for ten years, she still spends hours daily on the phone to former clients who are still looking for support and help. I know you know, and you should also know that it's people like yourself that make life possible for those with these horrendous ghosts in their closets. God bless you.

[cali]

24. It really burned me out. bless your wife.

I think I did it for too long, Uben. So much deep sadness.

[Uben]

27. Most don't see the dark side

Just knowing the burdens some are carrying day to day is a burden on you. You don't forget what you know. I understand the burn out.

I have just made it through a very troubling time myself where my mental health was questionable.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x150183


I had the good fortune to have support and the wisdom to seek it out.

[cbayer]

2. A good psychiatrist would see through that BS in a new york second, so your plan would be foiled.

:hi:

[Cid_B]

7. Saw it on CSI : NYLVSVU....

Must be true...

[Bjorn Against]

12. True a good psychiatrist probably would see through it...

But it is not so much a question as to whether or not a psychiatrist could see through it, it is more a question as to whether the perpetrator of the act thinks this could help them to successfully plead insanity.

I think the OP makes a good point, I don't know that the theory applies in this case or not but it is certainly something to think about. I don't think that we can look at this guy's MySpace page and be certain that it is a true reflection on who he really was, he is a criminal and quite often criminals intentionally try to deceive people.

[lonestarnot]

3. Zactly. Created alibi for nutjob defense.

[eShirl]

8. insanity or not, there will be no getting off easy for him

he can forget about ever being free again for the rest of his life, IMHO

[BanzaiBonnie]

13. He's not free now, nor has he been free

[eShirl]

16. ok

[Avalux]

9. Remember, there's another person out there who may have been involved with Laughner.

Luckily, Laughner is alive. Hopefully, the police will find this other person. A few nutty youtube videos and myspace posts won't be able to support insanity once the rest of the story unfolds.

[DCKit]

19. Not only that, but his associations (and associates) are going to be anal-probed. nt

[northernlights]

10. his history is broader and deeper than youtube and myspace

including volunteering at at least one literacy/book event, membership in at least one extremist organization, his college and high school records (which may or may not show behavior issues), and who knows what else.

And it's not as easy to fake mental illness as you might think. Insane ramblings are not just gibberish. His writings show a logic that references his internal perception, not the external world the rest of us perceive.

[stray cat]

11. only our pet mass murderers are mentally ill?

like those who murder people in a military camp?

[Bjorn Against]

17. Our "pet mass murderers"? Did you honestly just say that?

Thinking someone may be mentally ill is a far cry from considering them a "pet mass murderer".

I think it is far too early for anyone to say whether Loughner is mentally ill or not, it is possible he is but it is also possible that the OP is correct and he is intentionally using his MySpace and YouTube accounts to deceive people.

[immoderate]

31. Whatever preplanning he might have done just indicates a different illness.

You think that somebody who plans the YouTubes and MySpace and then cuts down 20 people is sane?

--imm

[Bjorn Against]

33. I never said that I thought he was sane, but it is also premature to say he was insane

We know very little about this guy, I certainly don't think anyone commenting on this thread has enough knowledge about him to understand his motives and whether those motives were influenced by a mental illness or not.

[KG]

22. you're my pet asshole.

[janet118]

15. Oh this guy is a real nut alright . . .

I only hope we get to find out about the older mystery man (the one who looks like a scruffy Sean Penn) who may or may not have something to do with aiming a crazy person with an automatic weapon at a popular Democrat and a defenseless crowd.

It could be something along the lines of the Washington DC shooters - an older extremist hater teaming up with a younger confused male to create a sick father/son dynamic.

Loughner's possible association with American Renaissance crew makes this an even more plausible scenario.

[Recovered Repug]

18. If the crime was to further a "cause"

wouldn't you want to avoid the "crazy" label and make your cause known?

[pitohui]

21. in many states there really isn't an insanity defense

you are welcome to try your idea but in many states you still go to prison even if you're clearly mentally ill, the insanity defense is pretty much worthless, as no jury ever finds someone not guilty by reason of insanity

most perpetrators of violent crimes are mentally ill, going up and shooting a bunch of people over nothing is pretty much a sign of somebody who isn't too tightly wrapped...but they don't "get off"

your idea is just stupid, in other words -- not to say the guy can't be stupid, hell, he probably IS stupid, but if he thinks he can "get off" because of insanity i think he will be mighty surprised

[Statistical]

23. The prosecution would likely call co-workers, friends, neighbors, etc.

They also would have psychologist interview you.

You could get away with it. You might get away with life in an hospital for the criminally insane too.

[mix]

25. great points

The mental illness angle is a rightwing meme.

[haele]

26. Opinion only; this person is a marginal case, at worse - My uncle had severe schizophrenia,

My uncle was a genius who was unable to care for himself - a high-school graduate/Korean war Hospital Corpsman, self-taught and fluent in eleven different, difficult languages - when he was in a "normal", able to function in the regular world state.
His episodes were pretty much that - episodes that were not really connected enough that he could carry out any long-term activity for more than a day or two. He would become paranoid with an idea-fixee, but his paranoia changed flavor every few months as some other concept became lodged in his thinking.

This Jared reminds me of many of the "borderline personality disorder" young men and women I've grown up with or seen over the years, growing up cocooned with unrealistic expectations, unsure or fearful that "they're not good enough", of real responsibilities and consequences, angry because they feel "dis-respected", and/or searching for something to make them seem more special than everyone else around them.
I've observed these types will try harder to make themselves the heroes of their own reality than they will to actually live and work in a reality where others may have an equal claim on respect.
From my experience, these types of immature young adults understand what they are doing when they act to hurt someone; but unlike a true psychopath or schizophrenic, they will try to find a socially legitimate justification as to why they need to hurt someone. (I dated one of these once, and managed to recognize what was going on before I got hurt)

I think he's probably emotionally and mentally no different than any other bully or wanna-be tool of a bully. The only difference here is that he apparently practiced a form of isolationist pseudo-intellectual bullying to the normal active pack bullying that people associate with the type of bullies the media has been covering lately.

He'll either try to cop a mental instability plea or retreat into his self-validating martyrdom for the grand cause. The sooner he gets his death penalty sentence, he won't have to worry about any doubts as to the personal reality he's scripted for himself - with the help of those predators who found him in his isolation and figured out how to profit by directing his actions within that reality.

Whereas my uncle, truly mentally incompetent, would not actually work to make his own reality, he'd just work on a narrow task or philosophy for as long as that episode lasted in whatever reality his brain had provided him with. He did not have a concept of rightness or wrongness when he was where he was, he would not have enough appreciation of his surroundings to understand whether or not he was hurting someone - and he couldn't be used by anyone other than on a rather short-term basis. Certainly not for more than a couple months or so.

My two cents based on my experience; for the actual situation, we will have to wait for professionals on the scene.

Haele

[Joe the Revelator]

32. Interesting insight

[sendero]

28. Insane or not...

... this guy will never set foot in the free world again.

[Joe the Revelator]

30. Thats what they said about Hinkley

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/11/08/national/main654253.shtml

[sendero]

34. Mass murder..

.. is somewhat more serious than attempted murder. I stand by my statement, this guy will never walk free again.

[Nevilledog]

29. Arizona does not have an insanity defense.

We only have the incredibly nonsensical "Guilty except insane" option. No matter how legally insane you are, you don't walk in Arizona. Also, say you were to prevail at trial in proving that you were guilty except insane during the commission of a dangerous offense....you would be sentenced to the State Hospital for the same length of time that a non-insane defendant would be with the added caveat that if you were to be restored to sanity during your stay at the State Hospital you would then be taken to prison to serve out the rest of your term.


Here's a decent law review article about Arizona's statute:

http://www.georgetownlawjournal.org/issues/pdf/97-6/Stoll.PDF


The return to prison for a dangerous offense is a relatively new amendment and I can't remember if the law journal talks about it.