Believing that Loughner is/was psychotic doesn't mean giving a pass to the

[cali]

wingnuts and their violent rhetoric. It doesn't mean one is falling for a media story. Recognizing complexity and duality doesn't make anyone a fool.

[Jackpine Radical]

1. It's precisely these deranged, delusional types

that the hate messages from Palin, Beck, Limbaugh and others are aimed at inflaming into action. The psychosis provides a level of cover, of deniability, between the instigator and the crime.

[cali]

4. The psychotic mind can take information from any source

and weave it into a pattern. Not saying he wasn't influenced by hate messages from the right, but he could also have been influenced by passages from "The Phantom Tollbooth". Again, that in no way excuses the rhetoric that flows from Palin, Beck, etc.

[Puregonzo1188]

9. Thank you!

That's what I'm wondering about this guy--what if they was no Tea Party, no Obama, etc would he still have lashed out violently? I get the sense maybe so.

[Boudica the Lyoness]

2. I think all those wingnuts with their violent

rhetoric are are psychotic to one degree or another.

[aquart]

3. That is too easy an excuse.

In fact, it's a blanket dismissal of their fears. Do you have to be psychotic to be easily frightened?

[valerief]

6. No, just really, really STOOOOOPID. nt

[Odin2005]

16. That's a hateful slam on the mentally ill.

the mentally ill are far more likely to be victims of violence than be violent themselves.

[Boudica the Lyoness]

18. You know damn well what I meant

I'm sick and fucking tired of people here always looking for the slightest hint of racism and any other perceived hidden deep dark hatred that a DUer has.

I'm not going to explain myself to you because you already have me figured out and want to have a fight with me. I know of people who read DU but dare not ever post in case they say something that someone here thinks is not politicly correct and jumps them for it.

Yeah I make hateful slams against people all the time don't I. Shit. I think I'll just continue my fucking day without DU.

[valerief]

5. Big money, who funds the hate machine, is counting on using "but he was crazy"

as a TP defense in the public arena.

I'm so glad we have Homeland Security protecting America from crazy people with guns, especially crazy people who paradoxically have the lucidity to invoke their fifth amendment right when arrested.

[cali]

7. yes, I'm sure they are

and yes, psychotic people can indeed be laced with seeming lucidity.

[Rex]

8. Thank you for saying that.

We should hold all the enablers responsible in a court of law.

[eleny]

10. Well said - rec'd

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

11. Exactly. I think it will turn out that Loughner is schizophrenic, or,

in layman's terms, nuttier than squirrel shit. But isn't that part of the problem? All this violent rhetoric the wingers love to spew tends to inflame crazy people to act violently. People who aren't mentally unbalanced in some way are not inclined to run out and shoot a bunch of people. For most people, even most teabaggers, the violent bullshit of the Pain/Beck crowd is understood as metaphorical and not literal. But there are plenty of people out there whose elevator doesn't go to the top story and who are unhealthily influenced by extremists' conspiracy theories. Those are the ones who will incorporate the rhetoric into their own paranoia and act on it.

That's not to say one would have to be literally psychotic to do such things (although it helps). The legal definition of insanity is quite restrictive -- you have to either not understand the nature of your act or not realize it was wrong. Loughner may or may not fall into this category. Other assassins have been medically and/or legally "sane," but nevertheless unbalanced enough to think killing someone for political reasons is an OK thing to do. This fits the general definition of terrorism, and not all terrorists are actually insane. But their worldview isn't normal. The rhetoric of the Palin/Beck crowd stirs up the delusions or sense of victimhood of those who are disturbed enough to commit acts of violence against some perceived oppressor.

I suspect that most of the rhetoric is not specifically intended to have this effect (at least in most cases -- as to Glenn Beck, I'm not so sure). But the RW love of guns and their tendency toward primitive, hypermasculine chest-thumping leads them to talk this way to prove how tough they are. But whether or not they intend the results, they own them.

[Pathwalker]

12. When my brother went psychotic he burned down the family church,

and tried to burn down the VA hospital, but that was before hate radio and tv. Every mentally ill individual has their own individual obsessions.

[Maru Kitteh]

13. Thank you cali. Well said.

[udbcrzy2]

14. I thought he was being silent

I didn't think Loughner was talking. I wouldn't give him the insanity defense so quick.
He won't do any prison time if they acquit him of these murders. He has to be examined
by a shrink and that person makes that decision, I guess along with a judge? I think
the dude is just an evil loser.

[cali]

20. his writings and anecdotal evidence are all over the net.

[Odin2005]

15. Yup. It is exactly such people that are most suseptible to such rhetoric.

[OHdem10]

17. Eactly. The Environment of Hate-filled speech set the stage

and actually gave him permission. The Tea Party has been
given so much positive attention ( no matter how screwy
many incidents were) that it could lead individuals
to believe any of their weird beliefs were ok. When
you have one Party setting themselves as totally
correct and the only way; while disparaging the other
party as "wrong", bad immoral, people with a newly found
sense of their own power are bound to go off the deep
end (if they have any emotional or mental weakness.)

[Bluerthanblue]

19. anyone who shoots innocent people in this manner is not mentally

healthy in my opinion. We may want to comfort ourselves with the thought that those who do this are fundamentally 'separate' from "us"- but the reality is, that the potential for this kind of violence exists in all of us.

The attitudes and ugliness that have been promoted by the media/shock-jocks/ and radical political fools FEED this terrible side of human'kind'.

I agree Cali- despite whatever mental illness this young man may be found to be suffering from, the rhetoric and glorifying of violence in our society is something we do have the means and power to control.

[OneGrassRoot]

21. Yep. K&R n/t

[yurbud]

22. yeah, when pols right and left used the word ''senseless'' it seemed like code for ''don't read

anything into this.''

Much like after 9/11, we weren't supposed to ask any questions after they offered up the imbecilic ''they hate us for our freedom'' explanation.

[yurbud]

23. yeah, when pols right and left used the word ''senseless'' it seemed like code for ''don't read

anything into this.''

Much like after 9/11, we weren't supposed to ask any questions after they offered up the imbecilic ''they hate us for our freedom'' explanation.