Obama: 'I refuse to renew' Bush tax cuts for rich.

[pa28]

Today the President endorsed the "gang of six" plan which caps the top rate at somewhere between 23% and 29%

He's supporting a plan that scraps the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy but then replaces them with even larger cuts. What an interesting way to keep your promise Mr. President.

Reagan might have told you that when a President makes an ultimatum or a stand on principle he must hold his position.

[ixion]

1. The problem is in your translation. Obama is speaking neocon...

which means he's saying "What the wealthy had was not enough, so I'm going to give them more free money."

[MichiganVote]

2. How long are we going to sit and watch this country sink b/c of a wealthy president and Congress?

They are not even making a decent show of listening to voters at all.

[ThomWV]

3. Kind of makes you want to puke, doesn't it?

[pa28]

46. Yes.

Actually.

[woo me with science]

4. K&R And all while cutting the SS checks of the elderly poor.

He's a corporate shill, not a Democrat.

[kath]

43. and a fucking asshole.

[SammyWinstonJack]

64. LOL.

:yoiks:

[BOG PERSON]

5. KILL THE RICH

(with kindness)

[bluestateguy]

6. I think the lowest top marginal rate under Reagan was 28%

which was increased by Bush Sr. in the 1990 budget deal and Clinton in the 1993 budget deal.

Conceivably, this would mean a lower marginal rate than the peak of the Reagan years?

[tritsofme]

7. So top rates are all that matter to you?

Would it be better to have very high marginal rates with loopholes you could float a boat through? Or lower rates and a simpler tax code with less loopholes?

The 23% to 29% top rate in the Gang of 6 plan is an apples to oranges comparison to the current tax regime.

[dennis4868]

8. no, here at...

DU we hyperspeculate not knowing all the facts...that's the DU way!

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pa28]

19. This plan is based on Simpson-Bowles.

Many of the "loopholes" discussed in that document were deductions middle class taxpayers rely on heavily.

[WinkyDink]

20. I'll take "very high marginal rates" for $500, Alex. Work on loopholes later.

[pa28]

26. The main "loophole" I'm concerned about is capital gains income.

If this plan contains an increase like Simpson-Bowles that's a good. The summary mentioned deductions that are important to the middle class but no mention of cap gains. Where I hoped to see some material on that subject I saw the following language:

"Change the debate about taxes in America from rate levels and carve outs to
competitiveness, fairness and growth"

The word growth so often seems to precede a pitch to keep capital gains and dividends low from our neoliberal leadership. Let's watch that particular point carefully.

[fascisthunter]

27. put down the crack pipe

[tritsofme]

30. I know, it is a pretty simple concept.

Some people are just stupid.

[hfojvt]

68. and others are just gullible

lowering the top marginal rate is the rich people's wet dream.

Imagine a rich person making $1 million a year. They are already taking advantage of every loophole that they can. If they dream up some way to steal another $10 million a year from the working people, then the government of the people will just steal it right back and use it to make highways and libraries and schools and such. That is, if the marginal rate is 50 or 60%. The higher marginal rate creates a disincentive to steal. It also creates an incentive to hire. Imagine if the top marginal rate is 70% (please). Mr.or Mra. Bigshot buainwaa owner looka at another $100,000 in income. However, the government is just gonna take $70,000. Thua it would make more sense to use that $100,000 to hire two people. Then that money spent on wages is a deductible business expense. Basically, you can hire those two people at a real cost of a mere $30,000.

loopholes, such as schedule A, provide huge benefits to the rich, and thus should be scrapped. BUT they should be replaced by larger standard deductions and refundable credits - NOT by a reduction in the top rate, something which clearly only benefits the rich.

Doing it the Republican way, just amounts to a tax increase on the middle class and a tax cut for the rich. The loophole, which was enjoyed by some households making $40,000 - $120,000 a year is gone, replaces by a cut in the top rate, which only benefits couples making over $372,000. The taxes for those middle class couples go up and the taxes for the rich couples go down. Brilliant! At least if your plan is to soak the middle class and subsidize the rich.

[W_HAMILTON]

47. It might be now...

...but it won't be when all those loopholes find their way back into the tax code once again, the same way they ended up there in the first place: at the behest of the business community, without public discussion or even mere public awareness. Make no doubt about it -- the loopholes will return, but this time, at lower tax rates. It's become impossible to raise taxes. You should never lower them, because once you do, you can basically assume that's where they will remain.

Do you really think the Republicans or the business community would support a plan that results in them paying MORE taxes? Don't be naive. They may initially pay higher taxes for a couple of years until they can work their lobbyist magic and get those loopholes back in, but then they will be home free. Tax rates will be lower, the loopholes will be back in, and we'll have this same discussion a decade or so from now.

[spanone]

9. link?

[pa28]

16. Here is the summary that has been floating around today.

http://danieljmitchell.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/a-bipartisan-plan-to-reduce-our-nations-deficits-v7.pdf

Individual tax rate info on page 3

[spanone]

22. thanks for that!

[Still Waters]

10. Except when a super-duper bipartisan plan comes along!

[robinlynne]

34. lol. At least you made me laugh in the middle of all this.

[Karmadillo]

12. Psych!

nt

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProSense]

14. He advocated taxing the rich last weekend

Weekly address

<...>

The truth is, you can’t solve our deficit without cutting spending. But you also can’t solve it without asking the wealthiest Americans to pay their fair share – or without taking on loopholes that give special interests and big corporations tax breaks that middle-class Americans don’t get.

It’s pretty simple. I don’t think oil companies should keep getting special tax breaks when they’re making tens of billions in profits. I don’t think hedge fund managers should pay taxes at a lower rate than their secretaries. I don’t think it’s fair to ask nothing of someone like me when the average family has seen their income decline over the past decade – and when many of you are just trying to stretch every dollar as far it it’ll go.

We shouldn’t put the burden of deficit reduction on the backs of folks who’ve already borne the brunt of the recession. It’s not reasonable and it’s not right. If we’re going to ask seniors, or students, or middle-class Americans to sacrifice, then we have to ask corporations and the wealthiest Americans to share in that sacrifice. We have to ask everyone to play their part. Because we are all part of the same country. We are all in this together.

<...>

Why? Because he didn't say he was supporting the Gang of Six plan.





http://

[MannyGoldstein]

18. "Any bill I sign must include a public option"

There will be much flim-flammary to tell us why this tax cut on the rich is actually a tax hike. They probably have the same guy at work 24/7 who cooked the Social Security projections into showing that it needs to be slashed cut strengthened.

[ProSense]

28. "The President is going to announce Social Security cuts in his SOTU."

That didn't work out either.

[MannyGoldstein]

31. Actually, I predicted that he'd "call" for cuts, and

To my deep disappointment, I was right.

[mzmolly]

63. Where did he call for "cuts" to SS?

Do you have an exact quote from the SOTU? I watched and must have missed it.

[babsbunny]

15. who are you pa28?

:hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi:

[emulatorloo]

17. Show me a QUOTE where Obama has thrown his full weight behind the Gang of Six. There isn't one

He has done nothing of the sort. He has not "endorsed" it

[ixion]

23. oops... well, yes he has...

Obama Endorses Bipartisan Push on Debt Updated at 9:37 PM

Source: New York Times

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4926943

[Ikonoklast]

32. Oops, he did no such thing.

He endorsed the "push on debt".

Not any plan, not anything on paper, not any panel's recommendations...he endorsed the *idea* that they are trying to do something about the debt.

[ixion]

55. lol

whatever. :eyes:

He endorsed the plan, whether you like it or not.

[WinkyDink]

61. There is no credible media source, nor any of the President's own words, that supports your reading.

[Donnachaidh]

21. yeah -- he'll just give him re-written ones paid for by America's seniors

I'm so tired of the snake oil speechifying....

[ixion]

24. me, too... it's old...

really old.

[MannyGoldstein]

25. Well, K&R

My last K&R was a little out of bounds and got removed, so here's another K.

[yurbud]

29. a real Democratic president would take any Dem in gang of six and throw them out a window

the higher the floor the better.

I voted for Samuel L. Jackson and got Urkel's wussier twin.

[deaniac21]

33. He is our leader....(holding back the tears)

[deaniac21]

35. Obama is totally out of his element, Aparentally, being the smartest

person in the room doen't mean much.

[ClarkUSA]

36. Nice try. He didn't support the details. Unrec for distortion of Obama's position.

[Logical]

37. LOL...I will call you very optimistic! n-t

[ClarkUSA]

38. Here's another fact: "Top Senate Dems say not enough time to pass Gang of Six plan"

Much outrage over nothing, as usual: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x715152

[pa28]

39. He endorsed the package.

He made no exception on tax rates.

[ClarkUSA]

40. Yawn. FACT: "Top Senate Dems say not enough time to pass Gang of Six plan"

Much outrage over nothing, as usual: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x715152

[pa28]

42. Why is he endorsing the plan if it's doomed?

Is this another clever piece of reverse psychology or "rope-a-dope" strategy? He said he wants cuts and if a grand bargain can't be passed by the deadline I suspect he will sign a temporary extension.

If he's making some kind of incredibly complicated reverse bluff by endorsing these ideas what do you believe he really wants. You seem to be implying he is telling a false tale for strategy purposes right now.

[ClarkUSA]

44. It was a strategic ploy, of course. He singled out the Teabagger House for criticism, too.

He's using his bully pulpit to try and push the GOP "into a box", as Steve Benen said in his column today:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=714836&mesg_id=714836

[Skittles]

52. he is not very good at these fucking games

not at ALL

[mzmolly]

58. I'm joining you

in an unrec. Why watch faux these days when you can get ridiculous spin, here? :crazy:

[CaptRandom]

41. give Pres. Obama an oscar!

for portraying candidate Obama..

[RegieRocker]

45. Kind of late for that. You have to be re-elected I think for

that to happen.

[Tx4obama]

48. President Obama did NOT endorse the plan, he hasn't even read it yet.

SNIP

... We just received it, so we haven’t reviewed all the details of it. ...

SNIP

Q: When will you announce whether you will be supporting the Gang of Six plan? Would that be in the next day?

THE PRESIDENT: Well, as I said, I think what you’re going to be seeing is an evaluation of that plan versus the things that we’ve been looking at. ...

SNIP

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x715551

p.s. Perhaps you should read ALL of what Obama said today, on the link I just provided.

[pa28]

49. I read all the additional info in your link. n/t

[jtown1123]

67. What about this?

"The hope is that everyone seizes this opportunity," Obama said. “I want to congratulate the Gang of Six for coming up with a plan I think is balanced.”

[ProfessionalLeftist]

50. HE. ALREADY. DID.

:wtf:

[quaker bill]

51. Somehow the plan

collects a trillion dollars more than the current code.

[jtown1123]

66. because it reduces tax deductions that help the middle class.

[SmileyRose]

53. OBAMA'S tax cuts for the rich started on Dec 17,2010

Geesh people have short memories.

[inna]

54. Draft Feingold. nt

[kentuck]

56. But it hasn't happened yet...

:-)

[mzmolly]

57. Very misleading. 1. He hasn't thrust his support behind any plan.

2. The "gang of six" plan ends many tax loopholes for the wealthy.

[jtown1123]

60. Ugh. And it lowers deductions that help the middle class. It's pretty damn bad

and yes, Obama did endorse it.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43807163/ns/politics-capitol_hill/t/obama-endorses-gang-six-deficit-plan/

[mzmolly]

62. The media spin is that he did. But his words

were not an "endorsement" of any plan, as is. Unless you have quote I haven't seen?

The President said, the “Gang of Six” proposal “doesn’t get us out of the House of Representatives" and "doesn’t get us out of the Senate” and cautioned “there are still going to be a lot of difficult negotiations” before the plan could be approved.

...

Also of note, the “Gang of Six” plan would:

Call for the elimination of some tax deductions and preferences and the reduction of others, raising $1 trillion in new revenue...

Require $145 billion in cuts to national defense and homeland security operations

Aside from the lamenting here about a plan that hasn't been hashed out or endorsed, the plan in question, raises taxes and cuts the military.

[jtown1123]

65. Here's a direct quote from Obama:

The plan is, he said, “broadly consistent with the approach that I’ve urged: what it says is we’ve got to be serious about reducing discretionary spending, both in domestic spending and defense, we’ve got to be serious about tackling health care spending, and entitlements in a serious way, and we’ve got to have some additional revenue.”

Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0711/59377_Page2.html#ixzz1Sfeq3j2l


And Another One: "The hope is that everyone seizes this opportunity," Obama said. “I want to congratulate the Gang of Six for coming up with a plan I think is balanced.” http://www.nationaljournal.com/congress/obama-hails-renewed-gang-of-six-effort-20110719


Oh and those military cuts? less than 1% of its budget...ABSURD!

Face it, he has always wanted a huge debt deal which includes entitlement cuts. This is really, REALLY bad.

[mzmolly]

69. I've seen these quotes. I don't see the so called embrace.

He said that he agrees with cutting the debt, and raising revenue. Much like he said when he campaigned for President.

[inna]

72. "his words" are completely and utterly W-O-R-T-H-L-E-S-S, based on his record.

it's ridiculous to even use "his words" as any sort of an argument; in fact, there's a good chance that he will do exactly the opposite of what he says, possibly in the most orwellian and damaging of ways, too. :shrug:

[mzmolly]

73. Pick out the one disappointment in 2000 pages of legislation, pieced together

by having to compromise with hundreds of people, including Joe Lieberman, and beat him over the head with it for eternity. "Public option, public option, public option!" Let us forget that children are covered immediately, or that college students can remain on their parents plans, or that diabetics will not be refused health insurance, and so on. None of that matters because we don't have a "public option" right? :eyes:

Any major piece of legislation ever passed in the history this nation, has a flaw or two. That's why we have an evolving remedy in the form of Democracy. The President is not King. We lamented that Bush had too much power, and that Obama doesn't have enough. Which is it?

[jtown1123]

59. Huge K&R

[kentuck]

70. At the least, he won't renew them before the election...

Because he knows that would be instant defeat for him. Period.

[Doctor_J]

71. He can't before the election because he already extended them past the election

Your logic on this is strange