So a friend is jumping for joy about Florida's plan to drug-test welfare recipients

[Orrex]

How shall I respond to him? After I've finished vomiting on him, I mean.


I thought about mentioning how we could fund (and increase) welfare in perpetuity if we'd stop one (or two or three or four or five) of our current deliberate wars. Or that we could likewise find the cash to feed the poor if we'd tax millionaires even just a little bit. Or perhaps making multi-billion-dollar corporation pay even a minimum of taxes.

Other suggestions? I want to have something ready other than a full stomach the next time I speak with him about it.

[WCGreen]

1. go with taxing the rich and watch his head explode...

[Orrex]

2. Unsurprisingly, his net worth can't be more than about $10K

And he sure as hell doesn't pull in a quarter mil per year.


I'm also tempted to remind him that Florida won't let him marry the love of his life, either.

[proud2BlibKansan]

3. How much is it costing?

It's also a ridiculous expense. There are already very strict policies against drugs in federally subsidized housing.

[stevedeshazer]

4. Suggest a compromise.

Drug-testing welfare recipients in exchange for drug-testing Republican lawmakers.

[Orrex]

9. I like the cut of your jib!

That was my first suggestion to him, in fact!

[stevedeshazer]

31. I also have a rightie friend I work with.

He's seemingly bright and articulate on the outside, but he gets all his info from FoxNews, Rush Limbaugh, et cetera.

I crush him gently with facts. I make him think. And for a minute or two, it works.

Next day, I find that Andrew Breitbart has refilled his brain with bullshit that is easily refutable.

Rinse, lather, repeat.

So, we have something in common here.

:)

[Bandit]

74. How about drug testing EVERY Voter....

The poor, those on welfare have no power to fight such things as this but when it strikes a little closer to home, I would be willing to bet something will hit the fan...

[dkf]

5. You think he just wants an excuse to not feed people?

Or he has a problem with people who use drugs?

[Orrex]

8. He claims that it's a righteous punishment for parasites who use drugs

I plan to ask him if the parasite's children should be condemned to death by starvation simply because their father or mother suffers an addiction.

It might be different if society offered any serious help in getting off of drugs, rather than merely punishing the victim.

Of course, punishing the victim is our society's bread and butter, so...

[killbotfactory]

23. Alcohol is a drug

Maybe you should suggest random sobriety checks for all welfare recipients.

[Orrex]

27. Also, I don't know why we'd stop with drugs

How about parking tickets? Or possession of illegally downloaded music? Or overdue library books?

[killbotfactory]

34. No sense having public money going to anybody guilty of criminality of any kind

There outta be a law against that.

[Orrex]

35. I agree--therefore we must lock criminals up in privately-run institutions

Otherwise, they're still suckling at the government teat!

[dkf]

25. Don't you need to take away the kids in order to get people help?

Can they detox while out in the community?

[Orrex]

30. I don't mean to sound snide, but are you kidding?

Where you live, are there many detox facilities accessible to people of low income?

That sure isn't the case around here, and I suspect that Florida doesn't offer much in the way of low-cost support or counseling, either.

I believe that they way they handle drug-abusing parents is by incarcerating those parents and dumping their children into foster care. And has anyone taken stock of Florida's foster care program recently?

[dkf]

40. Just following up on your suggestion to get these people help.

[Orrex]

42. Ah--my mistake.

I thought that you were speaking of a program currently available.

I agree that counseling and treatment should be accessible, but I don't know that it would necessarily mean that the children would need to be taken away (or that the parent would have to be confined during detox).

I have to admit that I don't have a great answer to the whole problem, but I can say with near certainty that Florida's proposed solution is terrible!

[Luminous Animal]

32. Oh hell. Just because some drug users are poor does not mean that they are addicts.

There are plenty of casual drug users who access public services.


For instance, Rush Limbaugh, he benefits from the regulation (and the tax monies spent regulating) the public airways.

[Orrex]

41. Nice! And you make a good (serious) point, too.

Drug use doesn't automatically equate to addiction, and it was lazy of me to fail to make the distinction.

[Luminous Animal]

26. I suggest that every single person that benefits from tax money get drug & alcohol tested.

Starting with you.

[SammyWinstonJack]

79. Good one!

:evilgrin:

[maryellen99]

6. Did you see it on Facebook?

The one thing I noticed on Facebook is that repukes always copy and paste stuff like that.

[Orrex]

11. Not in this case, but I know what you're talking about

Repubs and their drones are masters of the hard-to-refute soundbyte, a brief passage that can be repeated easily but which takes long minutes to refute.

Even when you've managed to destroy the claim itself, the audience has already stopped listening long before.

[Cronus Protagonist]

7. Tell him you just bought a thousand shares in the company that makes the testing kits

And you're donating the profits (from his tax money which will pay for the kits) to the local Democratic candidates who are against big government spying on the citizens, even the ones that can't find work.

[Blue_In_AK]

10. One of my, quote, friends was doing the same thing

on FB (he's someone from my old high school class), and a bunch of other old classmates were chiming in with their approval. This is why I left Texas in 1968 and never looked back. What a bunch of idiots. I'm just ignoring them. He's the one bad apple among all my FB friends. The only reason I keep him around is because occasionally someone turns up on his friend list that I'd like to get back in touch with. He's stuck in high school -- South Houston, class of '64.

[nobodyspecial]

12. And then what happens to the kids?

Do you take them away from the parents? Or let them go hungry because god didn't love them enough to give them better parents? And if people are addicted to drugs and you take away their only support, what will they do? Rob people? Shoplift? I see a whole shit-storm of unintended consequences coming Florida's way. I bet the prison industry lobbied hard for this one.

[Orrex]

13. Proponents of this kind of thinking tend to wash their hands of it

To them, the fate of the children is the fault of the drug-addicted parent. So the rest of us can go about our merry ways without ever considering the fate that we're inflicting upon the poor.

[dkf]

20. Do you leave kids with parents on welfare who are using drugs anyway?

Are these parents fit?

Marijuana, maybe, but the rest, I doubt it.

[Orrex]

22. That's a double-standard, though.

Do we actively hunt down potentially drug-abusing parents so that we can seize their children from them?

It's being painted as an anti-drug, anti-welfare-abuse policy, but in fact it's simply another punishment inflicted upon society's most vulnerable.

[dkf]

29. The fact is if a person can hold down a job they are probably not that bad yet.

But if they can't, odds are their drug use is worse and if they are on welfare they have a lot more time to be messed up.

[Orrex]

33. Still doesn't explain why their children should have to starve

Also, a great many people are on public assistance and working full-time jobs. I'd venture to say that a lot of them have substance abuse problems as well.

[Luminous Animal]

38. Hahahaha!!! My aunt never worked and she was a notorious alcoholic. She also accessed

government funded services (Coast Guard for her yacht... roads for her Mercedes). No talk about drug testing her to continue to enjoy tax payer infrastructure.

[Luminous Animal]

36. There are worse things. My aunt & uncle were rich alcoholics, my brother in-laws parents

were rich alcoholics... all of them accessed public monies, whether through tax breaks or the capitalistic regulatory system.

They should have been tested and all (between the two families) eleven children put into foster care.

[Luminous Animal]

39. Yes. As long as those children are loved and fed. Ripping families apart, "blaming the victim"

is not a solution.

[one_voice]

14. I have more friends in favor of this than against...

many want all states to do it...here's the kicker..ALL are Democrats/Liberals...these are the same people that what marriage equality, single payer health care, etc. But they're in agreement with this law. Go figure..

[Orrex]

17. That's what kills me in this case

I mentioned up-thread how I'm tempted to remind him that Florida won't allow him to marry the love of his life, for example.

There's no shortage of people eager to beat up on the poor.

[Historic NY]

15. Just tell him he is paying for it....& all starts somewhere soon he could be on the pee line.

[Orrex]

21. That's true, and...

if corporations were required to pay a living wage, I'll bet that a lot of current welfare recipients would be able to support themselves. Instead, we use taxpayer money to subsidize corporations by allowing them to short-change their payrolls because they know that society will help feed the people who can't afford food despite working a full time job or two.

[Vinnie From Indy]

16. Maybe when some hungry parent bashes him upside his head to steal his I-Pad

to sell to feed their child, he can hit the pavement knowing that he did the right thing!

[Orrex]

18. Love it!

:thumbsup:

[RegieRocker]

19. Ask him or her "Why? Do you have stock in a alcohol company

of some kind?".

[Incitatus]

24. Some people like to consider themselves supperior to others and feel they have

some kind of control over them. His views of the poor isn't much different than the elite in the country considering him a piece of shit.

[Drale]

28. Ask him if he'd be ok drug testing elected officials on a weekly basis

because they are getting public money for really doing nothing more then arguing with people, which they would probably be doing on the internet anyway.

[Tyrs WolfDaemon]

37. Piss on him

and tell him that it is what the state is doing with his tax dollars and you just want to give some back to him.

[Bigmack]

43. I gotta go to bed... but somebody please find the study...

done on the pilot program for drug testing welfare recipients.

Apparently is was very costly and only caught a small number of users.

It's here on my 'puter, but I can't find it, and I'm going fishing at 5 AM.

[Mendocino]

44. They can do that if

we can test all repugs for brain activity.

[Old Codger]

45. Just tell him

That his taxes are paying for it.

[bluerum]

46. They will spend millions to block 4 or 5 people from benefits. What dopes.

[Orrex]

47. And they'll claim it as a success, too.

[krispos42]

48. Ask him why the governor bought a drug-testing company just before he ran for office

Ask him how much money they'll save when the crime rate goes up.


:shrug: As stingy as welfare benefits usually are, the lack of them will start many people on a lifelong career of crime to make ends meet. They'll still be on the public dime, except now they'll be behind bars.

49. How I've responded to my "friends" who have posted with glee about it.

Jacksonville, Florida, ran a pilot program, testing cash welfare recipients for drugs. The results showed that only 4% of welfare recipients tested positive. The cost was over $250 million, plus an added layer of bureaucracy. More people in the general population test positive than do welfare recipients/applicants.

I then hit my conservative "friend" with the "I thought you guys were for less government and reducing spending wastes. This program is wasteful, doesn't work, and adds another layer of bureaucracy to an already strained state government."

[Orrex]

50. Consider it stolen!

Thanks for the succinct articulation!

51. You're welcome.

I've often let the political debates on FB breeze past me, since I feel that people who post politics on FB aren't wanting a debate, but a gotcha. But I couldn't let the welfare drug testing posts go by without a response, and that's probably the only topic that I've just hammered back on, over and over.

There's no logical reason to support it. None at all. It doesn't work, it's expensive, and it demands an enlarged bureaucracy. At least two of those attributes are things that conservatives supposedly detest... so I turn their arguments back on them.

Honestly, I think those posts are more about a hatred for poor people than about drugs. Many of the people I see posting those Florida drug testing celebratory statuses are people who are lower middle class... I guess it's kinda like how the white sharecroppers hated freedmen because they were just one step above them in the southern social strata.

Sorry to ramble. Glad you liked my post.

[Orrex]

52. Welcome to DU, by the way!

56. Thx, Orrex.

Long time lurker, finally registered, and I haven't been able to get away tonight at all. Is this place addictive or is that my imagination?

[w8liftinglady]

71. excellent reply!

[coalition_unwilling]

53. You could try a Joseph Welch on him (from the Army-McCarthy

hearings in the '50s):

Have you no sense of decency, sir? Have you no sense of shame?

Probably won't work, as your 'friend' sounds like a typical Repuke sociopath. But maybe worth a try.

OT, but why is this person your 'friend'? Ugh.

[Orrex]

54. A good quesiton, I admit

Years ago a friend/coworker and I were coming back from lunch, and she dropped one of the most amazingly and ugly racists bombs I've ever heard. It was all the more upsetting because I absolutely didn't expect it from her.

Our friendship diminished considerably in the days that followed, and I suspect that the same will happen in this case.

[pansypoo53219]

55. that the govenor is PROFITING on the testing.

money making scheme.

[Orrex]

58. A great point!

There are so many ways to attack this idiotic, regressive policy that it's hard to pick just one.

[mzmolly]

57. Ask him why he's supporting bigger government and tax dollars

going to such a program?

[okieinpain]

59. what's wrong with drug tests. my company has random drug

testing. I've had 2 of them in ten years.

[Scout]

60. ummm, because they are unconstitutional? because they don't guarantee

a "drug-free" workplace? because smart drug users just quit long enough to be clean for the pre-employment tests? because you can buy many different products that will give a clean test result when you aren't? because if i'm doing my job right and on time, then it's none of the company's business what i'm doing on my time?

how many more reasons do you want?

[okieinpain]

63. man if i tried that at work, I would get a pink slip before I got to

the end of your sentence.

[Scout]

64. tried what? n/t

[okieinpain]

65. mr. hr guy drug testing me is not going to gurantee that I stay drug

free and it's also unconstitutional, blah, blah, blah.

[Scout]

67. excellent response!

i feel sorry for you.

[okieinpain]

72. me too. n/t.

[demmiblue]

61. Oh my... you forgot the sarcasm tag. n/t

[okieinpain]

62. no i didn't. n/t.

[raccoon]

69. Sometimes they result in false positives. nt

[okieinpain]

73. no kidding. what about false negatives does that happen some

times.

[frustrated_lefty]

66. Ask how evenly he would apply that standard.

Receiving federal money in the form of a home loan? Small business loan? Farm subsidy? Income tax returns? Really, if the idea is to insure those receiving federal assistance won't be wasting the money on drugs, shouldn't this be applied across the board?

On that same note, shouldn't the entire population of states receiving federal monies be tested? Why should we be paying for them to build new roads if a large enough percentage tests positive? They're obviously a bunch of stoners and don't need to be driving anyway, after all!

[slackmaster]

68. Why make his opinion your problem?

You have the option of blowing it off.

[w8liftinglady]

70. 1.2 million Floridians ADMITTED to using drugs

According to 2005-2006 data from the National Survey on Drug Use and Health (NSDUH), approximately 1.2 million (8%) of Florida citizens (ages 12 or older) reported past month use of an illicit drug.
http://www.whitehousedrugpolicy.gov/statelocal/fl/fl.pdf

Now,consider how many of those million have children-you are looking at 3-4 million Floridians who may starve.

Your friend wants to let kids starve,huh?

[apnu]

75. Since Wall Street gets so much welfare, can we drug test them too? (nt)

[Starry Messenger]

76. Especially considering this recent story?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x1538287

When do the pee tests begin?

[ljm2002]

77. Sounds to me like your friend is jus another mean-spirited American...

...who likes to point the finger at the small and powerless as the source of our fiscal woes. I'm sure there is a picture in his mind of drug-addled deadbeats who are on the dole, who are not wonderful hard-working people like he himself is (in his own mind anyway). I'm sure he thinks they deserve to get cut off if they smoked a doobie with friends the night before.

This misanthropic mean streak runs deep in our society right now. It is of course played to by the right wing message machine, dropping memes into the collective lizard brain that basically say "Hate your neighbor -- but don't look too closely at the bigwigs in the gated communities, Who Only Have Your Best Interests At Heart".

I am losing faith that we can turn it around.

[frylock]

78. yeah, my sister just posted that shit on teh facebooks