Contempt for the poor on DU.

[cali]

I wish I didn't see it, and it's certainly a minority position, but it's not uncommon either.

Yes, poverty in the U.S. is generally different from poverty in many third world countries, but forget that for a minute; it's a rather stupid comparison.

Poverty in America means substandard health care. It means a generally shitty diet. It means a debilitating fear of losing a roof over your head. It means not being able to fix the old wreck when it has problems and not being able to afford to replace it. In some places, poverty in this country means not being able to heat or cool your dwelling. It means bugs and vermin. It means crappy access to the judicial system. It means an often overwhelming sense of hopelessness for many who are mired in poverty. It means risk to your children in a myriad of ways.

Let's judge poverty by the context we live in.

Poverty in America sucks.

[rug]

1. And contempt leads to placing the poor and the vulnerable on the table as bargaining chips.

[woo me with science]

11. +1000000

[RainDog]

15. wow. exactly. it's heartless thuggery n/t

[SusanaMontana41]

86. Yup. Morally bankrupt. n/t

[CrispyQ]

16. Well said. --nt

[StarsInHerHair]

61. let me add-it also means when you break your back & have no health insurance

the doctors play it down & tell you to get bed rest & not move, the opposite of their advice to the rich, take Gloria Estafan's accident, where her family mentioned they had to keep gently turning her. For the poor it means throwing up from the pain & being told you're a pain pill addict, your leg goes numb-tough; compare with Annie Lennox who got an operation for the same thing.

[QC]

19. Amen. n/t

[Donnachaidh]

37. +100000 k&r! n/t

[leftstreet]

46. +1

[SemperEadem]

66. for real... well put.

[fishwax]

93. +1

[CreekDog]

131. yes

:(

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

2. But if you have a TV you're not poor!

I just read it on DU.

:sarcasm:

[BuelahWitch]

21. Or a cell phone with a camera! Oh my!

::reaches for fainting couch::

[StarsInHerHair]

62. never mind that you bought that BEFORE you fell into poverty

[The Big Vetolski]

63. Or a used X-Box or Playstation 3! You know those poor people

watch "Grand Theft Auto" for tips on how to steal!

[DissedByBush]

96. Or an iPhone

or an iPad.

If you had an iPhone, then lost your job and got poor, okay.

I bought a fairly nice cell phone (not iPhone level) and then took a huge pay cut a year later, I'm literally a hundred dollars a month above food stamp level now (sucks, if I earned a hundred less I'd get several hundred in help feeding my family).

It's time for me to renew. No, I'm not getting a new cell phone. I don't have the money.

But I do see a lot of people taking government money for food, housing and heating on one hand, then buying luxuries with cash they do have, including some serious 4th of July party favors (booze, beer, etc. with the cash, steaks and shrimp with the EBT). We grilled hamburgers, couldn't afford that kind of stuff.

I'd say they should have spent that cash on regular food and returned the unneeded money to the government.

[locahungaria]

117. You know, my mother had some words of wisdom on that.

I must have been about 16 at the time and was grocery shopping with my mother. While standing in line, I noticed that the family in front of us had what seemed to be a lot of "luxuries" and other "non-necessities" in the cart and was paying for them with the old fashioned food stamps. Being the obnoxious teenager that I was, I commented loudly about their purchases. My mother turned to me and gave me "the look" and I shut up.

Once we were out of the store, my mother reprimanded me. She said, "Do you think that if someone is poor that they don't deserve a treat? Do you think that children shouldn't have an occasional candy bar just because the family is receiving food stamps? Do you know what that particular families every day spending habits are? Did you ever stop to think that this family might be living on tuna casserole and salmon patties (canned salmon was pretty damn cheap at that time) the rest of the month in order to "splurge" on what most of us consider normal meals? You don't know what goes on behind the scenes of strangers and you might want to consider that; maybe next time maybe you'll keep your mouth shut and save me and everyone else the embarrassment of your ignorance."

Well, that put me in MY place and I have remembered those words and taken them to heart for thirty some years now.

[DissedByBush]

137. My kids don't get that level of "treat"

Everything has to come out of what I make, and there isn't enough.

But many who are on food stamps apparently can get that level of treat.

I know the deals on how to game the system to live fairly well. I just don't do it.

It's that damn honesty, not wanting to rip-off my fellow citizen.

[BiggJawn]

76. Or a refrigerator. Or a stove that doesn't run on dried cow poop.

Oh, yeah, the poor really have it great, compared to the poor in Somalia.
The Heritage Foundation sed so.:sarcasm:

[OneGrassRoot]

3. HUGE K&R, with thanks. n/t

[bullwinkle428]

4. Thank you for this, cali. It needs to be stated regularly.

[demmiblue]

5. K&R

:kick:

[dkf]

6. You don't have to be in poverty to fear most of those things.

That's the general American condition.

I think because it is so widespread and people have a lack of confidence in their own situations it makes providing for others a lot harder to stomach when we all feel precarious.

[cali]

8. The fear is a lot more pervasive and real when you ARE poor. I know.

I've been comfortably off and now I'm poor.

[dkf]

20. Fear is fear.

When it kicks in people go into self preservation mode. That is how we are built.

[RaleighNCDUer]

17. Which goes directly to the base problem -

WE ARE ALL FUCKING POOR.

We are not a rich society. Or even a well-off society. If 60% of the population is one paycheck or less away from living on the street, we are a POOR society.

The manipulators of opinion have convinced us that we are all middle-class - and that is a lie. The middle-class lies between the 60th and 90th percentile in our population, and that is hardly the 'middle'.

Sure, we have our TVs. But you can only sell your TV once, to buy a week's worth of groceries (if you are lucky).

Simply put, if you have such a lack of confidence in your own situation that it makes helping others hard to stomach, you are either poor, or a Republican.

[WinkyDink]

30. Except: Studies have ALWAYS shown the POOR to be the MOST GENEROUS, %-WISE. E.G.:

America's poor are its most generous givers
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2009/05/19/68456/americas-poor-are-its-most-generous.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

People living in poorer areas give more to charity than those from affluent households, according to a new study.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/3844027.stm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

“In fact, America’s poor donate more, in percentage terms, than higher-income groups do, surveys of charitable giving show. What’s more, their generosity declines less in hard times than the generosity of richer givers does.”
http://christianpf.com/most-generous-givers/

[Kali]

36. ever break down on the side of the road?

it's always somebody in a beater that stops to help, never anybody in a lexus

(not to disparage people who are more comfortable that help and donate - there ARE lots of generous wealthy people too, but I think the empathy from suffering poverty tends affect reactions more)

[WinkyDink]

38. No; but I saw another stereotype shattered: Two Parisian kids changed my flat tire for me.

[Horse with no Name]

48. That has always been my experience as well

You're actually really lucky if you don't have to get out of the way of the Lexus...

[marasinghe]

101. absolutely. the other day, i'm going down the sidewalk in NYC -

there's this homeless dude who's a regular panhandler in the middle of the block. he's in real bad shape. anyway, as i pass him i see he's got a new looking loaf of bread in a wrapper, with cheese; & he's feeding the pigeons, with care; not offhand; while he's eating his own breakfast.

that same evening i'm walking back the same way; and there's this well dressed, wealthy looking, oldish couple, out for their evening dinner, or something. the lady suddenly points at something like 10 feet away from them against a building wall starts yakking @ her mate unintelligibly. the guy struts over half the block to the wall & there's an insect, maybe a roach, eating a leftover scrap. he deliberately stomps & grinds the insect into the concrete & walks back to his wife with a pleased grin on his sadistic face; she starts giggling like a psycho by proxy; and they waltz off into the night. now, that asshole had not the slightest reason to destroy that insect. this was not his home turf - saw them coming from way off & going someplace way off; just arrogant scum, who probably felt that anything which didn't fit their personal worldview, should not be allowed to exist.

also had the experience you mentioned - flat tire on a rural route upstate New York. someone in a wreck stopped to help. a very young couple living out of their car, with their young kid in the back - on their way west, back to their hometown. went out of their way to drop me at the garage in the nearest town, 'cos the spare was leaky. refused to take a dime for their trouble; though they did let me pressure them into having lunch. none of the suburban SUV types happened to slow down as they passed.

[raccoon]

114. I've experienced at least one exception to this. Once in town I had a flat tire.

A man in a Mercedes stopped to help me. I kid you not.

However, I've heard that rich people are the lousiest tippers. Don't know if that's generally true or not.

[pitohui]

130. yeah, it's always the guy in the F100 or the F150

rich people are actually afraid to stop, when i'm in a friend's beamer and we see a breakdown we just phone it in, just LOOKING rich makes you feel like a target

[pitohui]

129. you can't even sell your TV once, probably

i haven't even been able to give mine away on craigslist, it's scary

when you're broke, you don't much need to be paying $25 to somebody to haul an old TV away

electronics have v. little value any more

[suffragette]

28. Many people don't buy into Social Darwinism

though it certainly does go hand-in-hand with the kind of Robber Baron ideas and direction we've seen being espoused and implemented for awhile now.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Darwinism
Social Darwinism is a term used for various late nineteenth century ideologies predicated on the idea of survival of the fittest.<1> It especially refers to notions of struggle for existence being used to justify social policies which make no distinction between those able to support themselves and those unable to support themselves.

Programs such as Social Security are an absolute rejection of such self-serving ideology, which to me is a reason why it is under attack.

[WinkyDink]

31. Well, that's just arse-backwards then, if one's "precariousness" precludes EMPATHY.

[Kali]

34. no

in poverty you LIVE those things, out of poverty you may fear them, but the poor live them

[midnight]

7. Thank you. One does not have to look far to see what Scott Walker did to

Milwaukee Co... in terms of the signs of poverty.... Everything is double hard when dealing with poverty and we all need to help alleviate that pain, and not make our citizens with less resources carry the burdens for the wealthiest in this county.. This is backwards.... And Money doesn't trump Peace....

[Bragi]

9. K&R

[locahungaria]

10. A huge K & R!!! n/t

[My Good Babushka]

12. Recommended

Poverty in the U.S. is throwing away people and not using their full potential. Poverty is denying that a segment of the population even has potential just because they don't have money. It's un-American.

[etherealtruth]

13. Sadly, the anti poor bigotry is common here

I suppose its human nature to blame the victims ... its easier to believe that if one works hard, is honest and diligent and not an addict .... one can't be poor!

It can't happen to me because .... sorry, folks this just isn't true.

The hardest working people I have ever known have also been some of the poorest

[OwnedByFerrets]

14. K and R

[Tuesday Afternoon]

18. k&r

:patriot:

[Poll_Blind]

22. Recommended.

:thumbsup:

PB

[pampango]

23. Well said. The poor everywhere have more in common than they do differences.

All of those things: poor health care, bad diet, no roof over your head, no transportation, bugs/vermin, no access to the judicial system and a general hopelessness for many who are mired in poverty are exactly the issues that are faced by the poor in the Third World and the poor in the US. There may be some difference in the degree of severity for each of these but the issues themselves are almost identical. And the gulf between the poor and those who don't share their concerns (the "haves") is the real problem in each country.

[w8liftinglady]

24. Exactly. And I see it every day of my life in Texas.

...Couples pouring change into the coin machine,hoping for enough bucks for food for the kids.

People apologizing profusely for using SNAP to buy groceries...more and more people...and most Texans who qualify have not applied for SNAP(food stamps).

People with teeth falling out,wounds infected,illnesses progressed,diabetes out of control....every day I see this.

Kids without freaking shoes or socks, school supplies.

And someone has the nerve to bitch because a parent buys their kid a toy?!?

[treestar]

25. I don't find that on DU

One would have to twist and strain words to get the conclusion people here have contempt for the poor.

[WinkyDink]

32. I include the sentiment of "they're no different from the rest of us, finances-wise."

[Kali]

33. I have seen it.

much more common is the blissful ignorance and lack of awareness of it

you know, not wanting to sully a beautiful mind with thoughts of fellow citizens' suffering...

[etherealtruth]

sorry, duplicate

[etherealtruth]

39. I suppose we all see things from our own perspective

I see the reworked "Welfare Queen" stories (thank you Reagan) told many times here on DU as strong evidence of bigotry against the poor. These anecdotal stories (most, patently untrue) are told in most threads discussing "food stamps" and other forms of aide with the sole purpose of villianizing the poor.

Additionally, the paternalistic comments insinuating that if one receives aide they should surrender much of their choices to "those of us that know better" ... are rife within poverty threads.

[999998th word]

100. I've noticed it too

and I've called them on it.

[RandomKoolzip]

40. Sometime's it's more a "benign neglect" than any overt, explicit contempt.

Poor people are pretty much invisible - or worse, troublingly inconsistent with their party loyalty - to a lot of DUers.

[indurancevile]

50. I haven't been here very long but I've already seen it. The other day someone posted

an article about how rich America's poor were because they had airconditioners.

It was from some right-wing think tank, I think.

I was surprised to find that kind of thing here, because it's a standard right-wing talking point.

[KurtNYC]

120. People post things for a variety of reasons I find

And sometimes it is hard to tell what the OP's position is on an article they post or link to. But at the core I assume they are posting it because they would like to discuss it. In effect, everything posted here gets fact checked, dissected and debated by those who care or know enough to do so. In the thread you mentioned, did the poster or some one else point out that the AC ownership thing was part of a set of talking points?

[Cid_B]

125. Vaguely remember the article...

More about the standard of "poverty" in America.

The idea that one can be in poverty with two cars, TVs, AC etc.. etc.. seems odd to many.

[wickerwoman]

68. I saw it a few weeks ago,

on a thread about supporting local libraries. Someone said "What use do the poor have for books? They can't eat them! Poor people don't rent console games. If they have a PS2 they aren't poor!". This completely ignores the fact that "the poor" aren't a monolithic group, that many are very literate, that the inability to afford to entertain yourself is a serious quality of life issue and that many poor families hold onto console systems or TV/DVD players long after they've sold many other things because there is nowhere safe in their neighborhood for the kids to play and plunking them down in front of a game at least keeps them from getting shot or roped into working for drug dealers.

Assuming that poor people are all illiterate or that having some outlet for the imagination isn't important for them = contempt for the poor in my book.

[lunasun]

97. seems quite out in the open to me,,,

not even looking to find it and it is there , despite the blocking I do of posters, so there are many folks with contempt for poor here or more joining everyday

[locahungaria]

118. Sadly, I've seen it on DU and even on this very thread.

It's usually some thinly veiled reference to the infamous "Welfare Queens" abusing the system, but in a less RW tone.

[Pooka Fey]

26. Thank you, Cali.

This is such an important subject.

[WingDinger]

27. You must dehumanize the enemy, soes you can blow them the fuck up.

[suffragette]

29. Thanks cali

This needed to be said and you stated it well.

K&R

[G_j]

35. K&R

well said!

[RandomKoolzip]

41. Agreed. K&R.

[bvar22]

42. But its their own fault, Cali.

If they were smart like me,
they would have chosen RICH parents,
or become Wall Street Bankers,
or not had that family member get Cancer!!!

[sad sally]

67. Add to that list one that drives me nuts when I hear how people can pull themselves out of poverty

they would have gone to a good school
to get a good job

[mistertrickster]

43. Good post. K'd and R'd. nt

[John Agar]

44. A lot of contempt, PERIOD.

I'm stunned, really.

[a la izquierda]

45. Thank you!

[Liberal_in_LA]

47. +1

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[indurancevile]

51. I hate those cutsey little figures rolling when the person posting is mocking someone. It seems

very creepy -- jr. high bully level stuff.

But I try to think of it this way: people that use that kind of thing can't make the case for what they support because they're too stupid, too lazy, or too corrupt.

They're basically brainwashed idiots, nazis or political operatives.

[guruoo]

77. Welcome to DU. nt

[bvar22]

80. Welcome to DU,

and you can be certain that when a poster uses the ROFL smiley,
they KNOW they have lost the argument,
and they are not really laughing.

[Liberalynn]

53. +1

[QC]

54. Amen. n/t

[StarsInHerHair]

59. yeah I just alerted on 1 of them

[Forkboy]

52. K&R

[LeftishBrit]

55. k&r

Right at the moment, there is a definite attitude among the right-wing politicians and press in the UK that poverty is somehow a bad habit that the poor CHOOSE to get into, and is aggravated by the state being overindulgent and helping them too much, instead of forcing them to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps. The term 'workshy' comes up a lot. Which would be a bit more convincing if the government wasn't making all sorts of cuts that mean that there arent' nearly enough JOBS!

And I gather that the American right are even worse!

I haven't often seen it on DU, but yes, sometimes: it's all the fault of people's bad choices, etc.

[QC]

56. Thank you! n/t

[TheKentuckian]

57. Just more Turd Way rot coupled with the brand of fear that leads to

one drowning person climbing on the back of another drowning victim to scramble above water for an extra breath.

[hfojvt]

58. vermin? You think I have vermin?

true there are some spiders and a yearly battle with the ants over whose house this is. But vermin?

My sister is upper middle class. I was living with her for a time in her brand new house, okay, maybe two years old. Got up one morning to take a shower and there was a gigantic spider sitting on the shower drain. It was so huge that my thought was "that is not real. It's a plastic spider somebody put there as a prank." Because it certainly did not some up the drain. It was too big. Way too big.

But I picked up the shampoo bottle and crunched it, and by god, it was real.

So let's not pretend that I have some sort of monopoly on vermin.

[annabanana]

60. I miss bobbolink, and I'm worried for her. . . .n/t

[Melinda]

65. Same here... I haven't seen her for many weeks now. Everytime I see a topic such as this one...

lately, I am certain she'll be on the thread, and then she isn't. I'm worried too. I know she has a r/l friend or two who also post here... any chance you know them, maybe could message them?

This is not like her to disappear for such a significant period of time. :(

Melinda

[xmas74]

98. I haven't seen her on here

or on her other site. I'll send another message at the other site and see if she answers.

I've been worried about her lately but have no idea how to contact her.

[Melinda]

121. Do you know GreenPartyVoter? She was working w/Bobbi on a homeless project spreadsheet...

I have to get to work this morning, but I'll spend some time searching DU archives this weekend for others who may know bobbi and how to contact her irl. Perhaps a thread would help too. I sure hope she's okay. More later.......


Melinda

[xmas74]

124. I know her.

I should send her a message and see if she's heard anything.

[Melinda]

134. Yes, please, and let us know when you know something. Thanks very much :-) eom

[The Big Vetolski]

64. THANK YOU! and K&R!nt

[a2liberal]

69. K&R (n/t)

[JDPriestly]

70. I spent 8 years working on a homeless project, going to Skid Row day after day.

Don't tell me that the poor in America don't have to deal with bugs and vermin.

I could tell you stories about walking over homeless bodies huddled over vents in the sidewalk at 6:00 a.m.on my way to the bus stop in downtown LA -- and that was in the late 1980s.

The Social Security program does very little for homeless Americans in the "prime" of their lives, but it helps those who are old and most vulnerable and were fortunate enough to pay into the system at some point in their lives.

It is easier than you think for a middle class person to fall into poverty and homelessness. I don't know what kinds of cuts are planned for the food stamp program. We are only hearing about Social Security -- but I have may suspicions.

I know what I am talking about when I refer to middle class misery.

I also used to have a job in which I saw the financial statements of middle class Americans. Debt, debt and more debt in so many families.

You would not believe the number of people who owe far more than they have saved and who cannot save because of the expenses of health care, childcare, utilities, etc.

Our culture does not emphasize saving. Nearly every ad, every TV program, urges consumption, not saving. We are both retired, but we continue to get credit card offers. That is absurd.

And then there are the derivatives and debts of the banks.

Don't make the poor and elderly pay for the wastefulness of the folks at the top.

And let's talk about developing a culture of saving. Every ad urging people to purchase something should be followed by an ad warning them about what happens to people who do not save. (I'm exaggerating of course, but you understand what I mean.)

Edited because I never seem to notice my typos (I type fast) when I read the text in Courier. Sorry.

[physioex]

74. Just one correction....

Creidt card companies simply mail you offers based on the information gathered. They do not analyze things on a case by case basis. You may premanently opt to not recieve credit card offers.

https://www.optoutprescreen.com/?rf=t

[Hippo_Tron]

82. Super low interest rates are part of the saving problem, too

When your money is actually losing value simply by keeping it in the bank, there's not a whole lot of incentive to save.

[pitohui]

132. yes it's stupid to "save" when you are actually costing yourself money

i see a lot of basic financial illiteracy and knee-jerk talking points on DU (and really every other board where i participate)

there is nothing wrong w. credit cards if you use them right, for instance, much as i hate and despise chase bank, they have just given me a credit card where i will get back $300 after i spend $500 in three months on anything i like, including extra cash back for gas -- pretty sure i'll spend $500 in three months on gas, groceries, and the basics of staying alive!

and then they will credit me $300 -- i'd be an idiot to turn down that offer

i make a small side income by churning credit card offers, a source of part time income i'd be an idiot to give up, because it's so easy


meanwhile by "saving" money my bank has offered me a wonderful new savings account where i can earn 0.7 percent interest -- that's right, less than 1 percent interest, so that i'm losing money to inflation AND i would get to pay taxes on the privilege

by putting money in the savings account instead of buying groceries on the credit card i would be setting cash on fire!!!

and this is not really much beyond "advanced beginner" home finance, yet people don't master it

[Hippo_Tron]

136. Shit, which card is that?

You really get $300 for spending $500 every three months?

[Ohio Joe]

71. K&R - nt

[muffin1]

72. Beautiful post!

K&R!

:kick:

[Desertrose]

73. K & R

Poverty in America sucks. Yes, it surely does.

[louslobbs]

75. I have contempt for those who have contempt for the poor. We are not better than the poor because

we might be better off financially. The poor are entitled to the same respect, courtesy and justice as any other human being. I have no idea where some learned that it is ok to look down upon another because of their social or economic position. Poverty is not a disease or something to be offended by, it is a horribly frightening place from which people living in it, sometimes come to believe, they might never escape. Some even come to believe they deserve it for some wrong they committed and impoverished children often suffer ridicule and other abuses from other children for no other reason, other then, they are poor. What a great country this would be if we helped the poor out of poverty and looked upon others for the content of their character rather than their socio-economic status.
Lou

[Dystopian]

78. KandR

Thank you.
Sometimes things just need to be said.
People will still have contempt, can't change another's soul, but we are aware.


peace~

[Solly Mack]

79. K&R

[WillyT]

81. Thank You Cali... And In Some Ways It's Probably Worse Than You Think...

Some of the anger here is because of what they think of the Republicans.

Some of the anger here is because of what will happen to them if the Republicans win.

Those can be two very different things.

:shrug:

[Cleita]

83. Thank you cali.

Excellent way of putting what is poverty in the USA.

[Mimosa]

84. I can't afford IPad, Ipos, etc and know what it's like to not have health insurance

But am not poor enough to be on disability, Medicaid, food stamps. Nor do i want to be desperate and poor. But government policies have been making people poor but not helping them get out of poverty.

[FloridaJudy]

85. Love the poster who suggested

That if those over the age of fifty had trouble finding a job we should get botox! :sarcasm: Seriously, WTF? If we had enough money for that sort of thing, we'd probably fritter it away on our teeth. At least forehead wrinkles don't hurt.

[pitohui]

133. wow, who said that? pretty sure botox won't change your medical records/birth date

you have to pass a pre-employment medical screen to get hired

botox won't change the dates in your medical history

i love botox, i think it's a marvelous invention but it's useful on the social scene, to fool someone into thinking i'm a young sprite of 45, it can't and won't get me a job because that goes back to hard numbers and background checks that i can't pass

[FirstLight]

87. thank you for this...

I have had plenty of folks here comment that I shouldn't have internet or a computer or even a cell phone if i am struggling with poverty.

I have parents that help me buy shoes for my kids, and help me with my phone bill on occasion, thank god. Many people in my circumstances don;t have family to help in times of need. I am very lucky to have my support system of friends and such, and also to have had some times of feast between my times of famine...

but the judgement is deep rooted and insidious, we are taught that if you can just apply yourself you can succeed, but nobody seems to notice that the opportunity for that to be true evaporated sometime a few decades ago...

*sigh* I guess all we can do is try to educate people about the reality of 'first-world' poverty

[madrchsod]

88. it was here last night...the poor are better off than the poor 100yrs ago

i could`t help it..i had to jump on him or her.

[Scottybeamer70]

89. Thank you, cali.........

for saying what some of us know all too well. I try to save a little of my meager SS check each month. I don't even get enough
to rent an apartment, and if it were not for two friends, I would be under a bridge somewhere. Trust me, I know all about being
among the poor crowd. It's no fun being without your own transportation and having to depend on friends for it. I'm old enough
that I know I don't have that much time left, but that doesn't make it any easier. Thank you again for putting it so succintly!

[Lifelong Protester]

90. Yes, I agree with you, and I believe that there was some post

yesterday about 'poverty in the US includes a TV and an X BOX so we aren't really poor' crap.

Really? So we have to have folks be dirt poor-no chance-never going to get better- don't you DARE have anything!- type of poverty for it to be "real" for some folks???

There should be NO poverty in America, if we really want to be going around and patting ourselves on the back about what a great country we live in.

If there is poverty, we have not yet achieved greatness.

[Tumbulu]

91. It is one of the problems of an imaginary meritocracy

and is the result of the myth that encourages the society to believe that by allowing anyone who has talent/gusto/energy , etc to succeed financially and also to pick their profession (rather than do whatever their family does) that everyone will rise up to having either more wealth or at least a more fulfilling life because they chose their life's work.

The idea of a meritocracy comes with this side effect of distain for anyone who is not remarkable. And the idea that low paying jobs carry some sort of stigma.

I am afraid that it does come along as baggage with the myth of a meritocracy.

[Beacool]

92. Most Americans are two paychecks away from being poor themselves.

No one should be disdainful of the poor. Money comes and money goes, anyone can end up poor (particularly in these tough times).

I don't understand why some people are so smug and think that they are somehow superior to the poor. They should remember the saying: "There, but for the grace of God, go I".

Poverty can befall on anyone.

:(

[Tallulah]

94. Poverty can befall on anyone.

Yes it can and it's frightening.

[Cherchez la Femme]

95. Tsk, tsk

and I was expecting by now a Strawman accusation against you,
or how your were so needlessly being a pessimist
or at LEAST how we should ALL Share the Sacrifice!

--well, mostly all. We wouldn't want LESS to trickle down now, would we??



But on the positive, silver-lining side, I do recall a lovely stew-type dog food
--forget the name ATM, but I think it had a pretty collie on it--
that even includes PEAS right in the recipe -- right there in the can!

How cool is THAT where corporations makes lives easier and more convenient for the poor and elderly?


Bootstraps & HOPE & SHARING ya know! :woohoo:


K & R


:hi:

[DesertFlower]

99. well said. nt

[coalition_unwilling]

102. Goes hand-in-hand with contempt for the working class here, contempt

for due process of the law (vis-a-vis the extra-judicial execution of Osama bin Laden), ad infinitum.

I have contempt for the rich, racists, sexists and homophobes (so pretty much every Republican).

[JackDragna]

103. There is no greater issue than poverty..

...for from it is born endless amounts of other problems. Our povery is our shame.

[democrank]

104. Thanks, Cali.

[AllyCat]

105. So true. Thanks for saying this.

[Enthusiast]

106. Contempt for the poor

is a tool of the rich. A tool they use to amass more wealth. In Dickens's world it was especially prevalent. Look back into history to the days when the poor wore threadbare rags and had to fight for a single mouthful of food. You will find utter and complete contempt for the poor.

The theory goes something like -they are the author of their lives, they deserve their condition, just look at them in their filth. You can hear similar words from Limbaugh if you can stand to listen to him long enough.

[Pooka Fey]

107. +1. very well said.

[jzodda]

108. Sux to be poor

We need to help them more than we do and stop helping billionares.

[disillusioned73]

109. Well said.. k&r

I hate those comparisons as well, sounds like shit that heartless right-wingers would say.. could it be corporate media influence or actual new Dem/liberal thinking?? I hope the latter..

[JustAnotherGen]

110. Amen

[Frisbee]

111. Very true, but forgot one thing...

Poverty also means no voice in your supposed representative government, which is what makes it so hard to climb your way out of poverty once you are there. The rich and powerful (and sadly, much of the working class, who are one small step from poverty themselves) look at the poor not as fellow humans who may have fallen on hard times, and if given a fair chance would in most cases make their way back out of poverty, but rather a blemish on this so-called greatest nation on Earth. Sadly, there are a lot of people who are one small step from poverty themselves, but will never know compassion for the poor until they themselves are poor. And the way things are going, that may be sooner than they think.

[rbnyc]

113. +1

[rbnyc]

112. Personally, I often place American poverty in context with poverty worldwide...

...not to be stupid, or to be dismissive, but so that I don't fall over dead from depression when my son asks for something, like another sandwich, and I tell him we can't afford it.

Thanks for your post.

:hug:

[lapislzi]

126. Wow. Thanks for that.

I remember going to bed hungry as a teenager. Dinner? One egg. A can of tuna fish had to last two meals, and was more celery than tuna. I wasn't starving, but I wasn't full, either.

[rbnyc]

135. He's in summer day camp now...

...so that I can work and his father can look for work and be available when freelance jobs come up. Every Friday is subway sandwich day. They are $3.50 a piece. I pack him some fruit and pretzels to go with the sandwich. Last Friday he asked if I could order 2 sandwiches for him. I could not. I didn't have another $3.50, not in the bank, not in the couch cushions, I just didn't have it. He eats 3 good meals a day and snacks. He has clothes and toys and we are not behind on our mortgage. But it's tight. I glued my broken sunglasses back together this morning. A friend is coming to NYC and I can't afford to take the train from Long Island to go see her. For our wedding anniversary we are not spending any money. I'd love to go to dinner and a movie, but we just don't have it like that. At least we have each other.

I also grew up hungry, the way you describe. It makes me very panicky about being able to feed my family now. Thanks for sharing.

[lonestarnot]

115. K & R!

[Rhythm]

116. k/r from folks barely scraping by...

:hi:

[hootinholler]

119. Every time I hear phrases like

Trailer Trash used here it really annoys me.

There are many other examples.

-Hoot

[Gormy Cuss]

122. +1

[blindpig]

123. kick and explained

The ideas of the ruling class are in every epoch the ruling ideas, i.e., the class which is the ruling material force of society, is at the same time its ruling intellectual force.
Karl Marx

[zacherystaylor]

127. The usual troll patrol

That is typical on any high profile message board that attracts a lot of people. Part of the problem is that there are a lot of obnoxious people but another part of it might be what I call the "Troll Patrol." I don't know for certain that this exists but I suspect it is virtually guaranteed. The point is that a good forum could give the public an opportunity to make major changes for the better that could challenge the powers that be.

The powers that be have a history of playing dirty tricks to preserve their power and they have relied on bloggers to use stealth propaganda. A troll patrol would be an easy way to make many people fed up with good forums and it would be easy to do. It is hard to believe they haven't thought of it. If we try to censor them they win since it will almost certainly involve censoring many of the wrong people and not the right people. The best thing that I know of is to ignore them and try to keep a rational discussion.

I believe this is known as a "don't feed the trolls" policy and hopefully it will work whether it is immature people or dirty tricksters.

Giving up won't do any good since that is what they want but if you get to know where the good places to look are that could help.

[pitohui]

128. in some ways it is worse than poverty in the 3rd/4th world

a major way that poverty is worse in the united states is because it is not admitted that poverty is an accident of birth

i have to been some very poor areas of very poor countries, where people had no electricity, sometimes no running water, etc. and in many of those areas it was a bit striking that there was none of the self-hatred that you see in the united states

most kids born into hard core poverty in the united states will never be able to rise above it, i don't care how hard you work, if you're sick, the lights are getting turned off, your mom is off shooting drugs...almost no one overcomes that, sure, once in awhile, someone is born super strong and becomes a great athlete but if you're just a regular mind in a regular body, instead of a super model beauty or a super powerful athlete, there is no way to get from poverty to the middle class, the road does not exist if it ever did

yet there is this great pretense that you can work hard and rise about your class, which is self hating bullshit, almost everybody works hard and, very often, those who DON'T work hard have some mental or physical disease so it isn't like they woke up in the morning and decided, HEY, i'll fuck up my life by being a lazy no-hoper son of a bitch

there is too much blame, both the self blame and the blame from others, in the united states

in many deeply poor countries, everyone visible is in the same boat (the rich are kind of out of sight behind high walls) and you can't really blame yourself, you are just another person trying to get along like everybody else

seems like there's more equality somehow, it sounds funny to say so...

the poor in the united states do NOT have it easy, they have a very difficult and at times impossible situation full of "gotcha's"