Stop obsessing over mental health

[nadinbrzezinski]

from the charge sheet just read on MSNBC there was intent.

That means that insanity will not work.

He might be loony as a toon, but he knew what he was doing.

[LuvNewcastle]

1. I'm not saying Loughner is absolutely insane,

but anyone can be charged with anything. It takes a trial to determine whether or not there was intent. Also, I expect them to give him antipsychotic drugs while in prison and his attorney (when ever he gets one) will probably fight it. This is going to take a long time and by the time the police, the feds, and the lawyers get through with it, no one will really know what the truth is.

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. Docs in safe show intent

from a legal perspective he knew what he was doing.

That is the LEGAL standard.

[LuvNewcastle]

3. I'll just wait to see more evidence.

This just happened yesterday and I don't think they have all they need and it will be a long time before the public is aware of what they have.

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. This is part of the criminal complaint

JAYZUS.

[cali]

16. you seem to be confusing the criminal complaint with conviction

JAYZUS.

[malaise]

5. 100% correct

He'll die in prison

[cali]

25. I don't know. He may well be found insane.

[TBF]

6. I'm not surprised to hear this - his facebook message said "sorry" to his

friends. I don't know how much clearer you can get on premeditation.

[cali]

7. you have no idea what you're talking about.

a charge does have to be proven. of course they'll charge him with intent. I can almost guarantee that an insanity plea will be his defense. And they'll have a lot of material to work with. Will it succeed? Who knows.

[Spider Jerusalem]

8. Intent is one thing; intent as a result of disordered and psychotic mental processes...

is something else. If the defence at trial can present enough medical evidence to show that Loughner's actions were a direct result of his disordered mental state then despite intent there's a chance that he'll receive life in a maximum security mental facility rather than a capital sentence.

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. As much as I am against the death penalty

they have intent... that is the legal standard.

[cali]

10. uh, no. not quite.

[Spider Jerusalem]

18. Intent, but also a strong case for diminished responsibility as a result of psychosis.

Which is also well-established in case law. And jury instructions that make no note of potentially mitigating factors re mental state have been found to be a violation of Eighth Amendment rights by the US Supreme Court (Penry v Lynaugh, 492 US 302) and US Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit (Bigby v Dretke, 402 F.3d 551).

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. A good lawyer will get him off the death penalty

that's it.

[Spider Jerusalem]

23. I don't think anyone is arguing otherwise?

It's pretty clear that even if there is a successful diminished capacity defence the outcome is going to be life imprisonment (probably in a mental facility).

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. Actually some people are

because he did not get the care he needed, which at this point is another rant.

And the way the system works, if he beats the rap... he will spend the rest of his life in a federal prison.

[Statistical]

30. Not necessarily. He could spend a large number of years in mental hospital.

Then if based on his actions over that time period (decades) while under observation, therapy, and medication. He could be released. Just like Reagan shooter. Of course if the defense fails or he continues to be a danger to self & others in mental hospital then he is likely done for life.

[LisaL]

13. Nope.

Defense has to prove he did not know right from wrong for the insanity defense to succeed.
It doesn't matter that he might be mentally ill. It still doesn't mean he is legally insane. Not at all.

[Spider Jerusalem]

29. That's the M'Naghten rule; diminished capacity is a separate defence.

[cutlassmama]

15. As he should. He's clearly mentally unstable. We can thank Reagan

for cutting treatment of the mentally ill.

[LisaL]

17. It doesn't matter if he is unstable if he knew right from wrong.

Only if he did not know right from wrong he would be legally insane.

[Statistical]

24. Right and it is entirely possible if he was schizophrenic and suffering from delusions he wouldn't

know his action was wrong. He may be very well convinced (via the delusions) he did the only thing. Hell he might be convinced he was acting in self defense.

The point is some docs in a safe mean nothing without knowing the suspects state of mind.

[Texasgal]

11. I'll obsess over what I want to

Thank you very much.

Condescending much?

Sheesh.

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. Legally speaking, it is a dead issue

[cali]

27. lol. that is utter horse shit. It's not remotely a dead issue

I guarantee you that.

[LisaL]

12. Mentally ill is not the same as legally insane.

So I fail to see why we can't be obsessing over the mental health.
Did this guy ever try to obtain any sort of treatment?
Why was he able to buy a gun?

[cali]

14. I don't know if he ever obtained any mental health treatment

but he was kicked out of college and barred from the campus until he was cleared by a mental health counselor- which evidently never happened. In addition, he was rejected by the Army.

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. He was able to buy a gun since his record

only had a misdemeanor.

[Statistical]

22. One can't have intent (legal definition) without clarity of mind.

Not saying this applies in this case but take a teenager who suffers from mental delusions. He is mentally ill, psychotic, and 100% convinced if he doesn't kill his parents they WILL kill him (or some other perceived harm). He could take a polygraph to that effect and pass it. In his mind, in his delusion he is in danger. He write a note about his plan to kill his parents, even says sorry to some people about what he "has" to do.

Then he with methodical precession kills them. Under legal definition there is no intent. If his delusions compelled him to commit the act he can't have intent. All the documents and sorry's prove is his belief in the delusion. I am not saying they will find the suspect mentally incompetent I am just saying in the real world some docs in a safe don't prove jack shit without knowing the suspects state of min

[stray cat]

28. If he were a Muslim who shot people at an army camp would DU plead mental health

Like they did last time? There was intent to do harm then as well

[Manifestor_of_Light]

31. Premeditation throws insanity defense out the window.

"I planned ahead".

No insanity defense there. His goose is cooked. Stick a fork in him, he's done.

All a defense atty can do is save him from the death penalty.

Nadin is right.

I assume it takes 12 people on a Federal jury to give the DP like it does in state court.