Okay, let’s talk about this “We need a revolution” thing

[Cyrano]

Our country has been stolen from us. The pigs are in charge. And there doesn’t seem to be much we can do about it. Many are aware that we are virtually helpless in fighting against the super wealthy who all but own us. And many posts I’ve seen over the past year or two have hinted at, or screamed for, “revolution.”

The history of the world suggests that, on some occasions, oppressed populations can stand up to tyrants, overthrow them, and build a new order.

But as much as I hate to say it, I don’t believe we could pull it off even if we could get our shit together. IMO, our elected officials, and those who have bought and paid for them, have anticipated a possible revolution long before we thought we might need one.

Look at Iraq, Afghanistan, and so many other places in the world where our “leaders” have declared undeclared wars. It’s not just U.S. armed forces who are there. Our “wars” have been privatized. Blackwater, now Xe, and many other companies whose names we don’t even know, are major players in this “game of war.” And their profits are mind boggling. (Not to mention the vast profits of our owners who build the tools of war.)

So why would anyone think that numerous companies like Xe wouldn’t be used to suppress any attempted “American revolution?” And let’s add to that those drone things that can blow up entire neighborhoods, anytime, anywhere, for any reason.

If King Louis XVI had these resources to suppress his people, France might still be a monarchy and the guillotine would have been used only to thin out the herd of peasants.

Revolutions aren’t what they used to be. For all practical purposes, we Americans are expendable. The owners don’t need us to buy their goods, do their labor, or breathe their air. The world has become one vast marketplace and we are just taking up space.

The basic premise of what I’m talking about here is that we are fucked beyond repair. We have entered a new dark age. Hopefully, it will be followed by a renaissance. But I fear that most of us won’t live long enough to see it.

So that’s my current, depressing view of America. But I’d like to hear your view, and what, if anything, we can do about it.

[jtown1123]

1. Sure they have all the money and influence but we outnumber them, i.e. our votes count

not sure how this helps if people don't vote or are misinformed, but numbers wise? we win hands down.

[librechik]

7. only if we all show up (and we don't) also

they have ways to get around voting nowadays. And nobody is doing anything to stop them on that front. It;s bound to get worse.

[jtown1123]

27. The only way to get around votes is the Bush/Gore scenario. And then, it has to be close

[socialist_n_TN]

98. They make sure it's always close..........

That's the POINT. If it's close, it looks like a more realistic result when they steal another one. And people don't vote because they don't feel like voting does any good. And I can't blame them for that attitude, even though I always vote.

[InkAddict]

75. I need a valid photo-id address to vote in 2012

Help me keep the address on my current driver's license because I had to get a new one to vote the last time around. I'm on UI until probably around December and not yet eligible for early SS (looks like that may also be up in the air - 1 1/2 years to go - SIGH). What's the odds of getting employment in time - doesn't look good.

[Bandit]

34. It isn't who votes, it's who counts the votes.

The wealthy OWN the voting machines...Don't be fool enough to think everything is perfect when it comes to our voting situation here in America.

[jtown1123]

42. I think that is highly unlikely...

[marions ghost]

106. Right

it's who counts the votes.

Our election system is more corrupt and dysfunctional than most people want to admit. Too scary.

[defendandprotect]

123. Yes -- There were 128,000 never before counted votes in Miami-Dade County HQ's when

the GOP stopped the recount -- !!

[GliderGuider]

37. "It's not who votes that counts, but who counts the votes..." nt

[Taverner]

2. Agreed. Besides, in a revolution people die. LOTS of people.

Unless you don't mind the thought of losing some loved ones, it's better to push for local autonomy than nationwide revolution

[Newest Reality]

18. That's a good point,

however, we should consider the more subtle way that people can die when you factor-in the lack of equity in services and access to resources.

We already have people dieing from lack of access to health care, etc.

There is a line in the sand there, somewhere.

Revolution can be non-violent and it could most likely come from less participation in what the system tells us we should want/need. That comes down to how much comfort we are addicted to and questions of what kinds of small changes we can make that can lead-up to potentially dramatic impact.

In a corporatist takeover, what are the main issues to contend with? Well, the multinationals and banksters are in literally owning and controlling much of our barest necessities, as well as our expendable items. To revolt against them is to literally bite the hand that feeds us, and that points us in the very difficult direction of changing a lot about what we think and do. The effort and uncertainty hold many back and the craving for comfort and stability in the short-run could be our biggest barrier to a transition to something completely different and more satisfying.

Then, there is corporatist media that defines the reality for far too many people these days.

[southerncrone]

94. Think you are right on target...

The only way to not lose is to not play. Those in urban areas may have a tougher time w/this. Those who own their own homes & a plot of land will have it better. We may be forced to go back to multi-generational homes. More growing our own food, or getting it from local growers. Localization No more crap from China, made with slave/child labor for pennies filtered through giant corporations who rape both ends. More barter/gifting of our neighbors for the survival of all. :grouphug:

I asked my HS students "What can you DO that would help you survive?" Most had no idea what it took, let alone if they had any of the skills. We discussed this. I challenged them to LEARN to DO something PRODUCTIVE (learn to grow vegetables, sew, knit, fix machinery, etc.) Sadly, the very classes that promote these skills are being cut from our schools for the sake of standardized testing of random, often antiquated information, & not learning how to DO things. In the past children learned these things from their families, but over the last 40 yrs, that has not been the case. I consider it negligent that we do not teach children basic survival skills in schools today (w/exception of some spec ed students).

Simplifying our lives. Many will have no other choice. I prefer to do it voluntarily.

[InkAddict]

76. I'd count it as "shared sacrifice" n/t

[LoZoccolo]

3. We have an organized, legitimate revolution every two years in this country

in the form of elections. And one of the good things about it is that you don't have to worry so much about counterrevolutions and all the strongarm tactics meant to surpress them because you know you'll have another one soon enough. Work on that one.

[Cyrano]

25. "It's not the people who vote that count. It's the people who count the votes." -- Joseph Stalin

Karl Rove has (and still is) "fixing" more elections than we'd like to think possible. And he's not alone in doing so.

I live in Florida, yet President Al Gore was not allowed to take his rightful position in the Oval Office. Please spare me the rhetoric about elections being "legitimate revolutions."

[LoZoccolo]

44. The one fucked-up election doesn't cancel the legimacy of every other one.

Also, Republicans aren't willing to let their emotions keep them from voting; you cede control to them by not participating.

[Cal33]

66. You really believe there's been only "one fucked up" election? Just out of curiosity,

which one is that?

[LoZoccolo]

70. The one mentioned in the message to which I replied.

There might be more fucked-up elections, but the person to which I was responding only mentioned one.

[defendandprotect]

124. Computers began coming in during late 1960's ... I'd question Nixon/Humphrey--!!!

Doubt there ever was a "Southern Strategy" -- think there was only ever

computer steals --


See VOTESCAM -- THE STEALING OF AMERICA --

http://www.constitution.org/vote/votescam__.htm

Two journalists in Florida began investigating the unlikely and unverifiable results

in the late 1960's there -- and they contracted to write a book which was removed from

store shelves almost immediately -

Information was passed on to Larry O'Brien at DNC HQ's at the Watergate -- the info was

left for him as he was away at the time --

just before "Watergate" --

[Zorra]

29. Elections may be organized, but they are seldom legitimate,

and they are sure as heck not revolutions.

Dishonest RW control of the media (Rupert Murdoch, case in present, as a perfect example), lobbying, electronic voting and other forms of vote fraud, and private campaign financing create an unequal playing field that de-legitimatizes the majority of major elections in our country.

[LoZoccolo]

45. The neoconservatives have been willing to commit to 40 years of gradual change

in service to their agenda, and every time you don't participate, you cede two more.

[whathehell]

55. Good point. n/t

[Cal33]

67. Yes, they joined the Repubs., came up the ranks, usurped the power of the old-timer

Republicans, threw them out, but kept the Republican name in order to get
the votes of the old-timer Republican masses, who still don't know that
their party no longer exists, and think that they are "voting Republican."

The Neocons did work hard for what they've got. I'll give them credit
for that. Dems. don't work as hard, but they get mad when what they
expect to happen isn't happening.

[Zorra]

120. What does that have to do with my post? nt

[marions ghost]

108. and ALEC

:thumbsdown: :thumbsdown::thumbsdown: ALEC


Here's an article in The Nation that gives an overview:

http://www.thenation.com/article/161973/alec-exposed-koch-connection

And Terry Gross did a good piece on it today--really excellent and informative about how this national ALEC organization is ensuring that the Republican agenda is affecting legislation at state level.

"Who's Really Writing States Legislation?" --see link:

http://www.npr.org/2011/07/21/138537515/how-alec-shapes-state-politics-behind-the-scenes?ps=cprs

[defendandprotect]

126. Thanks for the info ... Obviously Koch Bros being harbored within Dem Party has also

impacted its agenda -- and its candidates --

Certainly Clinton and NAFTA -- and ending 60 years of Welfare Guarantees --

Obama's three new trade agreements and his attacks on public education, teachers

and unions -- Social Security, Medicare and safety nets!

It's a CANCER acting on the party from within --

And, seemingly we a re supposed to think that Democrats themselves haven't noticed

the illness?



Along with RW political violence which we've had out in the open for 50+ years --

we need to univent the dollar bill which provides a way for illegtimate transfer of

power from the many to the few!


The planet belongs to all of us -- and the greatest danger facing us all now is

Global Warming -- the effects are upon us now -- and I don't think it's coincidental

that we see corporate/elite fascism rising.


Situation in Norway and the once again violent force of the right wing there I think

points to the need for the RW to move to violence to try to impact the "concensus"

among the citizenry -- OIL profits investment -- one of the largest funds in the world --

and "immigration" -- two issues rising.

Indeed, it has looked like there are forces trying to move Ireland into violence again.

RW breeds in chaos and violence.

[defendandprotect]

125. +1000% -- but evidently the Democratic Party doesn't know that ... !!

[jwirr]

33. Unfortunately we are rapidly losing the redistricting issues and they

are stealing the elections in other ways as well.

[LoZoccolo]

46. You cede control in 100% of the elections in which you do not participate. n/t

[jwirr]

59. Who said I was not going to participate? I have voted in every election

since JFK and will continue to until I die or am told I can no longer vote due to something like dementia.

[defendandprotect]

129. Gerrymandering -- and Judges who have permitted it --

[ChiciB1]

35. Honey... I Live In Florida... Elections Count?? I've Tried To Forget 2000 BUT

NOW I have to live with Rick Scott! A many who is actually a FELON, and one who was BEHIND in the polls all the way up to the day of the election!

NO, elections aren't about voting anymore, they're about the PEOPLE WHO CONTROL THEM! I NOW firmly believe it!

And Obama will find a way to come out on top and I don't think I'm even happy about that! He's betrayed us for most of his Presidency and to those who KEEP carrying his water, I simply don't GET IT!

I've really, really tried to not blow up on so many occasions, but now I've just had it! So, people DO get killed in Revolutions, but people also DIE if they can't make ends meet. If they can't get decent health care, if they lose their homes and on and on.

THINK ROME!

[LoZoccolo]

47. If you don't participate, you can be sure that you don't count. n/t

[ChiciB1]

57. WHAT Makes You Think I Didn't Participate?? I've Been An Activist Since

Viet Nam!! I've worked in so many elections I can't even count anymore. But NOW, no I think I'm DONE!

Not only have I lived in Florida and seen how much it's changed through the years, I also happen to live in a county that has NEVER elected a Democrat to ANY significant office that I can remember! I also had to live with Katherine "Cruella" Harris as my Congress Critter for two terms, then we got Vern Buchanan by some weird voting trickery!

Even HIS opponent was a hand-picked former Repuke banker who was EXPECTED win, but somehow around 18,500 under votes became a super issue. When the results were contested it went on for almost a year, but in the end "lawsuit" Vernie won out. Next time the same 2 ran and he won with about 69% of the vote! And he had even MORE lawsuits filed against him by them.

And the Democratic Party here... well, just come and find out. A big rally here might draw 100 people! It's pathetic and pretty useless to run as a Democrat here. Actually, I'm beginning to think many don't run because they don't want to WASTE money. Our Supervisor of Elections is another piece of work too! I honestly believe she got lessons from K. Harris!

[LoZoccolo]

69. So do you think that people should participate or not? n/t

[Name removed]

86. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LoZoccolo]

91. Nader shit that still isn't true n/t

[ChiciB1]

88. No, I Can't Say I Trust It Much Anymore. Up Until Very Recently I Had

decided I would vote for Obama BECAUSE there wasn't an alternative, but I KNEW I would not help in any campaigning for him. I've have contacts with many different groups around the country and some very specific "progressive" elected officials have me on their mailing list and also contact me. I'd have to say that I've been much more active than most people I know. Many of my friends come to me if they want political information because of my long time participation.

Just telling you this so you know how involved I've been throughout the years. My father introduced me to politics when I was 11, a long time ago, and it's been what some would say an addiction of mine. Of late I've told others how very upset I've been and how it has hurt me. I've said it was hard to admit that I believed so deeply that in the end our system did work. I think I've come to realize that my voice doesn't really matter anymore and I don't know what can be done to "fix" all the harm that's been done. I think it's out of our hands and we are on our own.

It's not only Obama, it's too many Democrats too who have turned away and decided that "we the people" are no longer as important as we once were. THEY are going to do what they want and we don't matter much. I never thought I could get this cynical, but I am.

I realize that there has always been corruption in almost everything but nothing that I've seen in the past has been this bad nor have I seen people so apathetic and uninformed. I now find myself trying NOT to watch news even though my addiction is still there. I come here for updates, but in the end it's only me writing in words about my inner frustration.

So, the best answer I can give you right now is that I'm not sure that participation is going to do any good. I suppose my Rah-Rah days are over. I KNOW I won't be hitting the streets for any candidates I see right now around my area. Nor will I work for Obama.

I don't think my participation is wanted or needed. So I suppose my answer would be NO. And believe me just saying this gives me no comfort and it's very distressful.
:shrug:

[LoZoccolo]

90. So I say again what offended you: if you don't participate, you can be sure you don't count. n/t

[defendandprotect]

130. +1000% ---

The WEALTH we have permitted corporations/elites to amass is our enemy now --

We need to find a way to uninvent the dollar bill because -- as Al Gore has made

clear -- Congress is under the control of OIL and COAL industrries --

and obviously Congress is paralyzed and impotent unless the call is for a further

move to the Koch Bros./DLC right.


There are fewer and fewer here now who are even showing their faces to try and

defend Obama -- but agree with you it makes no sense.


Think we spend too much time responding to the defenders -- and too little time discussing

the huge liberal voting bloc -- the fact that this is a liberal nation -- and trying to

discuss what to do about all of this.


:( and :hi:


A few hundred elite families seem to have financed all of this -- and my fears are that

Koch latest -- the T-baggers are being sent to progressively make our political arena

more aggressive and more violent.

Will violence always win? The world has never found a way to deal with the few violent

among us -- and it's almost too late now!!

[Whiskeytide]

56. I don't necessarily agree with the premise of the original post...

... but I have to point out that an election as revolution comparison suggests that there are sufficiently distinct alternatives on the ballot. If both parties are in on the scheme, then it really doesn't matter who you vote for. They've "fixed" the revolution.

[RKP5637]

62. Yeah, today we pretty much have A = B. n/t

[LoZoccolo]

71. The alternatives that you are given were chosen by you and other voters.

It's not just your revolution, but everyone else's as well. You are free to get more people to accept your point of view, and convince them of the choice that you'd like to see on the ballot.

There's really no substitute for gaining consensus amongst the rest of the citizens. They all own a piece of the overall vote.

[socialist_n_TN]

101. There you go. To get all Marxist on y'all .........

In a bourgeois "election" in the United States you can vote for capitalist candidate A or capitalist candidate B. And, SURPRISE! You elect a capitalist candidate. It ain't called the dictatorship of capital for nothing.

[Marr]

97. Happy horseshit.

The political system is designed to provide stability and consistency; to make the sort of radical change that can legitimately be called "revolution" nearly impossible.

You may be happy with the status quo, or so invested in it that you feel you would likely lose ground in any serious revolution (I feel that way myself). But that old line about elections being organized revolutions is just silly, feel good sloganeering.

[LoZoccolo]

102. The fact is, two branches of the government can be deposed within six years. n/t

[marions ghost]

107. legitimate?

:silly:

[HockeyMom]

4. Go back to my youth

Tune In, Turn On, and DROP OUT?

[RKP5637]

19. Yep, just as Timothy said! Really, as this continues, many are

eventually not going to give a F about the US if the future is dismal. Imagine if the US has another natural catastrophe or worse. IMO the US is now poorly prepared to handle much, as we shovel most of our funds into foreign ventures and imperialism.

And the BS, propaganda and disinformation in the US run sooo deep now it's getting harder and harder to sort out factual information. And many just tune in and listen to the BS spewed by MSM.

And to top this off, the infrastructure is going to really start failing.

[librechik]

5. Just look at Libya. No way were (are) the rebels in any shape to challenge

Khadafi's armies. They are teachers and lawyers and students, not soldiers. They have spent months trying to become a force that could beat "The Man" and making very little progress.

And I'm sure everyone agrees that their cause is just, and they deserve help from the UN etc. We wouldn't get even that.

[gateley]

6. A little background music as you think this over -- Something

In The Air by Thunderclap Newman (possibily before your time?).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VK_6TU1T7V8

I'm depressed about America, too. :hug:

[Jim Warren]

8. "many posts I’ve seen over the past year or two have hinted at, or screamed for, “revolution.”"

The dilettante ravings of internet gadflies come to nothing.

When one yells 'charge' it's good to be sure there are actually people behind you.

[MineralMan]

11. +10. Lots of "let's you and him fight" writing on the

Internet, isn't there?

[GliderGuider]

41. Maybe it's an American thing.

"The dilettante ravings of internet gadflies" sure accomplished something in Tunisia, Egypt, Yemen, Libya...

You have a long way to go before you're ready for revolution.

[Jim Warren]

74. The net and networks

were used no doubt, but by doers not internet mavens whose forte is heavy keyboard usage.

[RKP5637]

9. Martial law would be declared if enough citizens became outraged. The technology

and tools exist to suppress masses of people, and for the money there are more than enough willing to do the suppression. Also, citizens are dispensable in the new US.

As for voting officials into office, I seriously wonder anymore just how much results are predetermined. Money rules the US and about 400 people own about 50% of the wealth of this nation. These people talk and plan, no way are the uber-wealthy going to let a bunch of pukes in their mind make this a better country for ALL.

George Carlin knew "exactly" what was going on ... sadly, I think there are still many citizens that just don't get it ...

[ChiciB1]

36. There Aren't Just Many Citizens Who Don't Get It... They're TOO MANY

who don't get it. And many of them are RIGHT here at DU! Excuse me, I'm just too upset and outraged right now and all I want to do is SCREAM & CRY like a baby!

What has happened, how much more can we take? I'm on thin ice right now and SCARED SHITLESS! A person who loses their home CAN'T pay taxes, what good does that do for ANY community. They don't get revenue, people don't buy things... how does this work out for the good of the country?

I just don't understand anymore. I want to run and hide, but I don't know where to go. I swear, I'm going to have a breakdown, I feel HOPELESS and LOST!

[RKP5637]

50. I don't understand anymore either. The country has turned against many of

the citizens. The greed and selfishness is incredible, and many with wealth and power don't give a damn about the country or the citizens. They are just raping it for all the wealth they can.

I'm saddened to hear about your situation, I hope you somehow make out OK. There are now millions in desperate situations in this country and most with wealth and power can't even begin to relate to the situation and many I'm now convinced simply do not care. This is a pathologically sick country.

[ChiciB1]

60. Thank You For Your Kindness, But I Know I'm Not Alone. But That's Just

the problem it's hard to know where to turn. Ya know, like who do you call? I used to say that there were times I felt like a flea on a dog, but now that dog has grown into a horse. But, I'm not sure horses have fleas. Still, it's the comparison I'm talking about.

Lost in a vast wilderness wondering which way to go.

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. It will not come in the next year or so

The radicalization of the population has not gotten there YET. Rvolutions are organic. Also we still could have, I hope.. A peaceful one. See the New Deal was a revolution.

[RKP5637]

61. We need someone like a MLK to rally the people. I haven't seen/heard

anyone like that with the power MLK had. Also, today, the corporate MSM would suppress anyone rising to that level. I like your thoughts that the New Deal was a revolution, that, IMO, is what we need, something akin to the New Deal ... but I wonder who is going to lead that ... not the current WH IMO.

[nadinbrzezinski]

64. Watch WI and the Midwest... the leaders

will most likely come from there, as to the media... end runs. MLK was not supported by the media until pretty late in the game.

[Exultant Democracy]

12. I know it is a cliche, but it is always darkest before the dawn. The worm always turns

and it seems like time moves faster now because of the new speed of information in the internet age. Things will turn around, not as soon as we want, but probably before we would expect them to.

[Cyrano]

20. I sure as hell hope you're right, Exultant.

But what never goes away is the thought that someone once told me: "It's always darkest just before it goes pitch black."

Jeez, what a depressing thought. I'm almost sorry that I started this thread. It's enough to drive those who don't drink to drink.

[RKP5637]

65. It's better IMO for us to all be talking about it than thinking it alone. I think it's

a good thread. Something that always bothers me, that I learned long ago, is sometimes that light at the end of the dark tunnel coming toward you is a train, and not the end of the dark tunnel. I learned that long ago when I realized what a snake pit most management teams were.

[Amonester]

13. I always said and still say a massive hunger strike would do them in 2 weeks

just because, the last thing the corpocrat$ want is "to LOOK bad"

any violent uprising against them would NOT make them look BAD if they'd "RETALIATE" to crush VIOLENT, LAWLESS actions

but a peacefully MASSIVE stall of the economy WILL. And in 2 weeks, TPTB will be begging on their knees (not to LOOK bad any longer).

[socialist_n_TN]

103. Oh they don't give a shit about "looking bad"

They ALREADY look bad. What would bring them to their knees is if everybody stopped working and everybody stopped paying their bills. Or at least the bills to the banks. Then maybe we'd have time to get out in the streets. But the strikes would hit their bottom line. They'd fold because of that, NOT because they don't want to "look bad".

[marions ghost]

112. yes

the efforts have to be more focused. Not violent or lawless. Look at Wisconsin.

But fighting back does involve action.

[ThomWV]

14. I think we are little more than war-mongering bastards who the world would be better off without.

My honest assessment of what this country has become.

[whathehell]

17. Who's that "we", bro?...You can speak for yourself on that one

Or maybe I should say you can "off" yourself if you honestly

subscribe to that philosophy...Just don't take the rest of us with you.:eyes:

[GliderGuider]

39. He did speak for himself. It's in his subject line. nt

[whathehell]

53. Yes, but the message becomes somewhat troubling with the addition of "us" and "we"

if you get my drift.:eyes:

[GliderGuider]

58. I don't actually think so.

For instance, I think the world's problems would be easier to solve if there were only a billion humans on the planet instead of 7 billion. That doesn't mean I want you or me or anyone else to die immediately to "make it a better world". It also doesn't mean I'm speaking for anyone else.

[whathehell]

72. Well, I'm not so sure...

It's hard to believe one is simply waxing philosophical when one says:

"I think we are little more than war-mongering bastards who the world would be better off without".

"My honest assessment of what this country has become".

Do I think he's absolutely serious, or a "threat" or something?..No, of course not.

I simply don't feel deserving of death and, like most, would like to forestall it indefinitely!

[Warpy]

15. While it's unlikely now, revolutions can and have been bloodless

After all, the right wing revolution was, stole the country right out from under us with few shots fired.

But yes, we need one. I hope it can be a bloodless one but I'm not at all convinced it will be.

[Lucian]

16. Talk like that doesn't help anyone's cause.

Think about those who fought off their oppressive governments in the past. If they would've thought they way you do, they would've never tried. And look what happened. They won.

I want to see a government takeover here in this country. I'm tired of the wealthy elite running things.

[MineralMan]

22. There is no "cause" that has enough followers to make for

any sort of uprising or revolution. Not right now. There are dozens of causes, but they all hate each other because the others only think their "cause" is of value. There are lots of individuals writing about "revolution" on the internet, and almost none doing anything else.

The bottom line is that there aren't enough people pissed off about one issue to make for anything much. Even when you get 100,000 or more people to show up in DC, all you have to do is look at their signs to understand that the group is completely not unified. One group cares only about wars somewhere. Another has racial issues in mind. Another is all about the decline of the educational system. Another wants the end of capitalism, and so on and so on.

And then, across the street is a group of equal size, also divided into factions that don't get along. They're against everything the first group is for, whatever it is. There are the gay haters, and the Muslim haters, and the "socialism" haters, etc.

No unity, no change. No unity, no effectiveness.

Power to the People! Write on!

On edit: I turned that last line into an OP in GD:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x1539878

[Lucian]

49. That's why we all need to work together.

Sure, I'm tired of the wealthy elite running things. But I also want the end of the wars, better quality education, racial equality, and even equal rights for the LGBTQ.

We all need to work together to make change.

[MineralMan]

54. There you go, then. I want all of those things too, and I

wouldn't qualify any of them with an "even." In fact, I'm a little confused why you said "even equal rights for the LGBTQ." Is that not just as important as the others? So, I'm all ready to work together to work toward them. I'll be working in 2012 to re-elect the progressive legislators in my area. Want to help? Or, as an alternative, you could work in your district and precinct to get the most progressive Democrats who are electable there into office. If we do that, we won't have to deal with the Republican majority in the House of Representatives, and can maybe turn around our state legislatures.

Now, that sounds like a lot of work, and it is, but if we all work together...

[Lucian]

105. It is just as important as the others.

If not more important.

But my problem is why elect officials? Most people are the same as the ones in power. We need sweeping changes. Starting-over-fresh changes.

[indepat]

21. The operative words are "fucked beyond repair": we the people are fucked beyond repair, but the

some 30 years of our government having been fucked beyond repair with intent and malice of forethought will, in all probability, cause our economy to further contract and eventually implode upon itself until the government can no longer meet its sovereign debt, at least with dollars having any significant purchasing power, much less meet all its other obligations, such as social security, Medicare, and civil service and military pensions. It's not all bleak, however, because the Federal government, through its largess, has allowed, by design, countless individuals to accumulate vast wealth free of meaningful taxation and the government of, by, and for the people has morphed into a particularly virulent strain of fascism. Hopefully, for the sake of our Republic, this bleeding heart is all wet and just has misread the tea leaves. :patriot:

[dissidentboomer]

23. We're not there, yet. However, the elites are doing their best

to find the "breaking point" of the current US population. I have the impression that they think our patience and potential for suffering is almost boundless. That's wrong and wishful thinking. All people have a "breaking point". I don't know for sure but I sense creeping panic from the elites (wall street, global banks, well, you know who they are.) and I think there are two reasons for it:

1) The traditional free market and Keynesian "fixes" for economic depressions do not appear to work, anymore. Some would argue that the stimulus was not truly Keynesian and should have been direct hiring and significantly larger. Maybe so but I'm not sure we have the resources to institute a massive true Keynesian response equivalent to FDR's attack on the depression. Also, I don't think any politician with influence has the guts or inclination to try it, as it WOULD be equivalent to a "revolution" and would change the economic system and political leanings in the US for decades to come (40, 50 years?). In sum, they are beginning to sense that there ARE no solutions within their realms of possibility.... and that's pretty scary, folks.

2) They know that the general public, from the upper middle class to the poor, are beginning to fully realize that they no longer have a political outlet for their views and, consequently, can no longer use the political system to elect folks who will bring the change that they need. What happens when another round of Keynesian stimulus fails and, subsequently, a libertarian or pure free market approach not only fails but completely craters the economies of the western world? The political system does not allow for another approach to be championed and tried.

Once the dual realities of limited political options and an economy WORSE than 2011 hit the American people, they will have no option available but marches, massive strikes, etc.

THAT is when we will learn whether this set of elites reacts like the Bourbons and Romanovs OR adapts politically and "takes their medicine" to save their nation.

[brooklynite]

24. Should I worry about this before or after the "We need a primary opponent for Obama" thing?

Or should I just ignore both since, as far as I can tell, the advocates never do anything beyond vent at their keyboards...

[Cyrano]

31. I hear you, brooklynite. And your solution for repairing the world is ... ?

[brooklynite]

32. Keep working to fix it, one step at a time...

[LanternWaste]

43. I imagine it requires too much patience for too many people.

Although I certainly agree with you, I imagine it requires too much patience and discipline for too many people.

Also, it denies the post-apocalyptic, dystopian, fan-boy fantasies born of badly-written sci-fi novellas a lot of the kids dream about... :shrug:

[brooklynite]

109. Maybe it's the fact that I've lived under a Martial Law Government...

...that allows me to recognize the difference.

[jwirr]

38. I am not Brooklynite but your question made me think of one answer.

The answer has to come from grassroots change. And this change has been going on forever. Paul Hawken's book Blessed Unrest is very relevant in this issue. Our leaders are not listening and are even working against us. By each of us doing something locally - even growing a garden - we are joining with millions of people all across the world to create the change we need.

Hawken says none of us are alone. He looks at groups like the Sierra Club, Bread for the World, environmental organizations, and other groups that work outside the government to bring about change and are doing so one step at a time through individual change.

Examples of change that have made a difference: recycling, conservation, food shelves, organic food education, farmers markets, and many others. We need change in our own lives first and then those we can influence. The market is influence by our choices and in this way we can bring about change locally if not nationally or internationally.

I agree that to take up weapons against these oppressors that hold us in their grip is insane but to pursue alternative lifestyles that ignore them is possible. That is the only way we are going to beat this.

[marions ghost]

110. alternative lifestyles...might make

the individual feel better but doesn't really change anything in the big picture unless huge numbers go "alternative" which is unlikely.

"Ignore them?" -- silly. They have too much control over every aspect of our lives. There's no place to hide out.

Sorry but I don't think the answer lies in growing gardens.

[jwirr]

116. Read Paul Hawken's book "Blessed Unrest" he is saying that there

is a huge group of people who are working toward the alternatives. He tells us that this fight is basically leaderless but huge and world wide. It includes all the groups who are working toward this end as well as individuals who just like some aspect of it. And they have already made a great deal of progress - it is world leaders that are outside the mainstream on this issue and probably always will be. Just look around you and count the number of people who are doing something - anything.

[marions ghost]

117. the leaderless fight...

I'm not seeing it where I am & I'm not in the boonies. So where are these people? Example?

I've read so many visionary books that sound good in theory but have no reality. Sorry to be cynical but where are these people who are going to push past the barricades. I guess I only see the downtrodden or the self-absorbed. Nobody I know is altruistic.

[jwirr]

119. Just an excerpt from his book: "A community of the Cree nation

gathers to discuss waste sites on its native lands.......the founder of the organization Wild China films a documentary about migrants displaced by construction of the dams.....Disgarded computers from NYC, London - are recycled for poor children.....students, engineers, journalists, farmers - explore ancient rainwater harvesting and catchment systems in India....across the planet groups ranging from ad hoc neighborhood associations to well-funded international organizations are confronting issues like the destruction of the environment, the abuses of free market fundamentalism, social justice.....they share no orthodoxy or unifying ideology, they follow no single charismatic leader, they are working to bring about a transformation of human society."

Some of the groups he talks about: Zimbabwe Assoc. of Microfinance, World Wildlife Fund, Urban Habitat, Sustainable Connections, Survival International, Sierra Club, Doctors Without Borders, Save the Children, Habitat for Humanity and right down to the compost gardener, the organic farmer, etc.

I live in a small community also and we have people like the Master Gardeners who help others in the community to learn gardening, our farmers market is active all summer long, we have a bee keepers association, discussion groups, all kinds of local people doing what they can to offer change.

I am not suggesting you read the book - I simply used that book as an example that we are not alone in our efforts to change the world - but we are also not some big organization that follows a leader and must march to their tune. All these groups and the local people I mentioned have a similar goal but are coming at the solution in their own way. Doing what is needed in their own community.

If you truly do not have anything like that happening in your community maybe it is time to start something. At the age of 70 I have lived in many communities and have never lived in one that did not have activists who were working to make the world a better place to live in. These are the people I am talking about.

[Blue Meany]

26. The owners have been in charge all along but they have gotten

stupid, or at the very least short-sighted. What you say is mostly true, but they do need a real American ecnoomy to tax in order to pay for the military machine the keeps in place the global economic order from which they benifit so much, but which they are not willing to pay for themselves. They have convinced themselves that since the end of the Cold War they no longer need capitalist society to look attractive, since there is no viable competing system, so they have decided they no longer need a middle-class. But they have forgotten what conservatives in the 1950s and 1960s knew: the middle-class is the bulwark of social stability that minimizes the possibility of a revolution that take from them all of their ill-gotten gains. But the reality has not changed. They need us more than they know, and they are likely to soon discover that they are not immune from the impacts the social environment they have created. But then it will be too late to stop the backlash against them.

[ladjf]

28. There seems to be something in the American living experience

that is literally damaging people's minds. It might be the result of massive doses of political propaganda pumped into them by either the media, religionists, the Government or a combination of all.

It is a proven fact that the human mind loses the ability to think objectively after years of exposure to false information.

[ladjf]

30. We need to stop the bombardment of false information that is being

pumped into the brains of all Americans. It is very bad for you mental health.

[GliderGuider]

40. Does revolution really bring change?

I hadn't noticed that. Mostly it seems you wind up with a new set of blackguards in power. The problem with power is it attracts those who want it.

[dissidentboomer]

51. It can bring change and that change can make things

worse, better, or about the same with new systems in place. Wanting power is not bad. What makes the desire for power good or bad is the motivation driving the desire. Most of those in power in the US, right now, had a desire for power but I suspect that they were motivated by the promise of riches and those things riches bring and not by patriotism. Revolutions are not necessarily bad but the extremist tendencies that always occur must be controlled and the international environment around the revolution must not be one that causes the revolutionaries to wall their nation off from moderating influences, trade, and aid. Should counter-revolution be encouraged and aided from outside or should invasion and economic harm be threatened or implemented, revolutionaries "circle the wagons" and become very mercenary in a hurry. That is when well meaning, patriotic, mostly humanitarian men become militants and butchers.

[Terry in Austin]

68. Revolution certainly doesn't have a very good track record

Uniformly awful, in fact, in terms of positive social and economic outcomes for the populace at large. French, Russian, Iranian... consistently a bust.

People are usually quick to point out that the American Revolution (tm) is the happy exception. However, I think the case can be made that what the American colonies engaged in was a war for colonial independence, not a revolution proper.

The difference is that with a revolution, you end up with a new regime in the capital. After we repelled the Brits, the regime in London was still the same, even though its empire was somewhat smaller.

The problem with revolution is familiar enough -- you end up with new butts in the same old chairs. It doesn't take long for them to take on the same old shape.

We as Americans were able to go off and make new chairs to our own specifications, but if we as Americans were now to attempt revolution, I'm pretty sure we'd run up against the same old problem.

[dissidentboomer]

77. So, what do you recommend as an option? Nothing? Just "take it"?

I thought so. Also, in the long run, do you think that the French were NOT betterr off than under an ignorant, brutish, monarchy? WOW. Dude, you are either off the deep end or you have lost all hope and that is sad. At times, whether you like it or not, people have no other option. The American revolution was a revolution, as the colonists had no real representation. It was mainly a political revolution and, secondarily, an class revolution.

[Terry in Austin]

79. More to the point, what do YOU recommend?

Who ends up with the power, and how?

[dissidentboomer]

83. The PEOPLE.... with no interference from corporate and banking

money to tip the scales and with a fair tax system, realization that there is NO "free" fuckin' trade, a caring and respect for seniors and the poor and sick without the goddamn frat bot cynicism, easily accessed education for those who are truly capable, guaranteed retirement benefits, and NO goddamn WARS FOR OIL, FUN, AND PROFIT FOR rich kids. Fuck! Sorry, but a lot more of us than you may think are fuckin' PISSED OFF.

Now, I don't know who the hell that leaves in power but if he looks like the reincarnation of Lenin, I'm not sure that some of us give a damn, at this point.

[Terry in Austin]

95. That's definitely the right outcome

Power to the people, that's what it's all about. Has been for me since about 1965.

Yes, people are pissed, probably as much as they ever have been since then. The only thing that really matters about that, though, is whether the anger translates into the outcome we both desire.

It depends entirely on power and the struggle for it. Those who have power, including power over us, can be counted on to hang onto it until a) it's taken from them or b) it's made irrelevant.

FWIW, I can't imagine that any effective strategy would fail to take this fact into account. Obvious, maybe, but I think that has to be the starting point.

[GliderGuider]

115. Your point is well made

"Those who have power ... can be counted on to hang onto it until a) it's taken from them or b) it's made irrelevant."

Those are the two polarities of radical change: a) comes from revolution or extreme reform as a voluntary act from inside the system; while b) comes from collapse which is involuntary and precipitated by external forces.

The only other way I've found to oppose power is to withdraw consent, to practice a personal "politics of refusal". It's an essential first step, but it's so hard to do in this interlocked civilization that it's largely pointless as a framework for global change. The social and physicals landscapes are owned so completely that there are few places to withdraw to. We can set up private niches involving cooperatives, bicycling, home gardening, solar panels etc. but those are pretty small beer when compared to the breadth and depth of corporate influence.

So, which will it be - revolution or collapse? One or the other is coming, because nothing about the current social experiment is sustainable.

[socialist_n_TN]

104. Try Trotsky, the Marxist road not taken

Y'all knew I was going to say that didn't you? :)

[Marr]

99. It certainly can. Good or bad, it seems to me that

a lot of the big changes have either come out of revolution, or the credible threat of revolution.

[Terry in Austin]

48. Revolution is a means to an end

If it's the best means to a desirable end, then yes, this "We need a revolution" thing has legs.

So, just talking about it some, in terms of goals:
* The goal of a nation-state, in particular the US, is "a more perfect union" -- an improvement in the way community life is organized.
* For a revolution, the same goal is served -- indirectly -- by seizing and correcting the state, which has failed to meet the goal.
* Historically, those who do the seizing and correcting soon find out why the state fell down on the job in the first place.

So it may not be that revolution is the best means.

It may well be that the failure lies in the very nature of the nation-state itself. We speak of "our country" with a natural desire for the community we expect it be, and that is always a worthwhile goal.

However, vibrant and supportive communities tend to happen on a more human scale; it's much more natural to feel and live with an affinity for one's own town or region, for example. A continental-scale entity like the US is really an abstraction that's just not well suited to functioning as "our country" in the sense of "our community that inhabits this land together."

The fact is, the US is not "our country," but a highly bureaucratized and militarized empire centrally controlled by Washington, and it's that way because it has to be -- not out of some perversity on the part of individuals in office, but because that's what it takes to function as the entity it is.

It's just the nature of the beast. It's not likely that revolutionary rehabilitation is going to change what it is and give us the supportive and just community that we strive for and expect.

Instead, I think the urge for revolution will more likely be served by political devolution -- actual governance and community happening more locally and regionally. Devolution is already a trend in the UK, for example. As Washington becomes increasingly irrelevant, I'd predict it to start happening over here, as well -- to everyone's benefit. Except for Washington's!

[dissidentboomer]

52. I don't think the problem is one of centralization.

I think it is limited economic policy and an increasingly closed political system. It feels like "centralization" but that sucking sound you hear is not power being sucked away by DC bureaucrats. It is money and power being sucked away by multi-national corporations, banks, and the global wealthy. Some sort of "city state" or loose EU confederation type arrangement wont change that one iota.

[Terry in Austin]

63. Centralization is not *the* problem, no. There are many.

>>It is money and power being sucked away by multi-national corporations, banks, and the global wealthy.

This is also a problem. It's interesting to bring it back to the theme of the thread -- for example, would revolution be an effective way to meet this problem?

I agree with what you say about the role of multi-national corporations and their cronies. I would suggest also that their purposes are very incompatible with those of a purported civic entity like a nation -- they're more like parasites or pirates. However, they are a power on a par with that of nations, and certainly with any city-state or EU-style confederation.

Attempting to make such an arrangement would have to overcome the practical hurdle of winning out in a contest with that power. I think you've rightly identified the reason it wouldn't be a very good strategy.

Actually, I believe that any "strategy" -- in the sense of a program actively organized and undertaken -- is subject to the same weaknesses and likelihood of failure that revolution is, and for much the same reasons. It gives us humans far too much credit for being able to change large-scale circumstances by design, when large-scale processes like evolution (and devolution) are more natural and more effective. Just my take -- YMMV.

[dissidentboomer]

78. Fair enough. You are a thinker and

that is welcome here, at least for many of us.

[Bonn1997]

73. Leaving the US may be the best answer...I'm close to thinking it's hopeless

I'm one of the lucky few with a good job right now. So I'm not in a hurry to leave. But my job is dependent on there being a strong middle class.

[dissidentboomer]

81. I understand. That is why the time for it isn't quite here but also why

we are WELL down the road to something big, I think. It seems clear to me. All the pieces are in place. If it happens, this WILL be a class revolution but, make no mistake, in Marxist terms it will be a middle class revolution headed by middle class and a few wealthy intellectuals.

[bemildred]

80. "They" don't have their shit together either, the evidence is quite clear.

And nothing is ever fucked beyond repair, that just means rapid evolution is occurring.

[cali]

82. Is your life completely miserable? That's certainly the impression I get.

I'm sorry. Maybe you should take a break from the computer and politics and do something joyous.

[dissidentboomer]

84. What would you suggest, "dog"?

Taking a spin in daddy's bentley with a stripper and some coke? KEWL!

[Cyrano]

87. Nice try, cali. Some of my most joyous moments of the past have been

skiing in your home state.

I try to make my life as "unmiserable" as possible. But that doesn't mean that I can or will ignore, what I believe to be the very unpleasant realities of today's world. And the misery it has brought to so many.

[dissidentboomer]

92. deleted.

[guitar man]

85. I'd rather

die on my feet than live on my knees.

[swilton]

89. October 2011

Peace, environmental, social justice activists launch massive peaceful demonstration beginning October 6, 2011.


OPEN LETTER: THE U.S. OCTOBER 2011 MOVEMENT STANDS IN SOLIDARITY WITH OUR GLOBAL ALLIES
Inspired by the courageous, nonviolent uprisings in Tunisia, Egypt, Bahrain, Yemen, Greece, Spain, and elsewhere, people in the United States have come together to form the October2011 Movement. This fusion of peace, social justice, environmental, student, and immigrant rights organizations is in solidarity with all who seek a peaceful, just, and sustainable future and stands ready to engage in its own campaign of nonviolent resistance beginning in Washington, D.C., this October.

http://october2011.org/welcome

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x1235538

[swilton]

93. History in the Making - from today's videos

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x601892

[StarburstClock]

96. It's too late to do anything but watch the collapse

Some event will occur as it always has throughout history that will set it off as the stage is already set via: total contempt and disrespect for lying politicians/D.C., extreme anger commonplace among the general population, poverty getting much worse, corruption everywhere with accountability "off the table".

[RagAss]

100. Who in the history of the world was "helpless" fighting against the wealthy?

[probama2]

111. Preparing for Martial Law

People are already preparing for A fight
Like this guy who claims martial law is eminent
He is Sand bagging His trailer up To "fortify " it
And "training " for Vehicle assaults "



<http://youtu.be/MKUlcq2hJaY>

[upi402]

113. "we are fucked beyond repair" and w/o an opposition party

there aren't to damn many options by now

[mdmc]

114. there has got to be a silver lining in there somewhere..

look for the good.. paint the light..

[reformist2]

118. What we need is to get white middle-class voters to vote Democrat.

I dare say, we have not been very inclusive when it comes to their interests...just to be clear, I'm talking about the social issues.

[dissidentboomer]

128. THIS! Yep. If the demo's/liberals could attract HALF of them, they

would wipe out ANY repub candidate.

[defendandprotect]

121. Don't worry ... Global Warming will be worse -- !!!

Seriously -- the founders had it easy considering there was no atomic era --

drones -- agent orange -- the many glorious weapons of destruction we have now

thanks to the rw love of violence!!

And who knows who really has control of our MIC -- ?


One lesson from this -- if we ever go thru it again in another lifetime -- is listen

early -- act early --

[defendandprotect]

122. Actually, the RW does this with violence and their wealth ... dollar bill transfers power . . .

from the many to the few --

We've given corporations/elites the ability to build great wealth --

without that wealth they would have no ability to 'BUY' our government

nor our candidates and elected officials --


Dollar bill is simply an instrument used to gain power --

Only way the rightwing can rise is by political violence -- always been true.

[lonestarnot]

127. Renew and update passport if you haven't already.