Whoever leads a productive, honest life is ''serving their country'' as much as a military person.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

The statement above is

[slackmaster]

1. True, not everyone can or should serve in the military

I entertained thoughts of attending the US Naval Academy, but my vision problems rule out active duty service.

My brother is a senior Naval officer now.

[patrice]

2. Vet here, tech schooled/partied with all branches for one summer in Denver, not everyone who

joins the military does so for the great noble reasons attributed to them by media.

It's a secure paycheck and benefits to many people, with a clear career path up if you want it. Something I can't/won't fault them on, but let's be honest about what the motive is for more than just a few of them.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

12. Exactly. It's a job. It's available. It pays on time. -nt

[patrice]

14. Entreprenuerial is not a word that would describe these people & that assessment is based upon

my NCO Academy class (appx. 1 month in duration when I was in).

[Ichingcarpenter]

3. I taught special ed

I didn't kill anyone and get no benefits like they do.

[patrice]

4. Work should be more honored than it is. It IS looked down upon by certain types, some of whom

are economically and socially powerful.

[Zywiec]

5. John F. Kennedy Quote

A young man who does not have what it takes to perform military service is not likely to have what it takes to make a living.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

9. Then John F. Kennedy was dead wrong about that.

Either that, or he was pandering to the rah-rah toughoid crowd.

[patrice]

15. Viet Nam War. - When there are Americans who have died, are dying, will die, NO ONE can just go, "Oo

oooops, that didn't work! Let's do something different." I DON'T like any of it, how it all comes about, what they do, the corruption of their military culture by the ambitious, NONE of it, but . . . .

When blood has been spilled, philosophically on EITHER side of a War, you really CAN'T just walk away. Yes, I know, "they signed up for it", but that still doesn't mean you can do a Prince W and just take it for granted. The military has to be allowed to be a part of the process that decides what the objectives are and what they are worth.

I don't like ANY of that, but that IS the way it is.

[sarge43]

17. That would be news to Franklin Roosevelt and his father. n/t

[TwilightGardener]

6. I think the willingness to die to defend one's country takes it a step beyond

a productive and honest life. The long separations from family are also very difficult. So, no.

[LWolf]

7. How many of the military actions

our soldiers engage in around the world are actually about defending one's "country," rather than promoting U.S. capitalism and global hedgemony?

I can't think of a war waged in my lifetime that was actually about defending my "country:" the land and people within our borders.

But then, I'm not much moved by propaganda.

I have seen actual citizens who serve the actual people in our nation, from within, in many capacities.

I was born in 1960.

[RaleighNCDUer]

22. But how many are actually willing to die for their country?

Only a small percentage of the military actually put their lives on the line. And then, there are those who are only out to serve themselves - GWB 'served' in the TANG, but refused a chance at deployment to Viet Nam. Merely collecting a government paycheck doesn't mean they are 'serving our country'.

At the same time, civilians who are working to better the nation, no matter who signs their checks, ARE serving. And plenty of civilians have jobs which put them in danger, and which cause long separations from loved ones. Is the guy who spends 4 months on the line fighting wildfires serving the country any less than the guy who is an Army public affairs officer in an air-conditioned office in DC?

[TwilightGardener]

33. I'd include firefighters and police in my definition of serving.

People who risk their lives for the safety of others. I'm not willing to. Glad others are. They get an extra measure of respect from me.

[Arugula Latte]

40. Do you think our invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan helped your safety?

[TwilightGardener]

41. Iraq--no. Complete 100% waste of every person and resource.

Afghanistan--maybe. It doesn't matter, though. The willingness to take on a dangerous job in order to protect others is what matters--whether these folks are used improperly or ineffectively is not the issue.

[Arugula Latte]

43. I respectfully disagree.

If people stopped signing up for the military because they recognized they would almost undoubtedly be used to hurt or kill brown people in order to further U.S. corporate wealth, then our leaders would be unable to hatch these scam "wars."

[KG]

8. i work with a bunch of older ex-military folks.

their reasons for enlisting were various versions of escapism. did one or two stints and got out. they rarely mention anything like 'serving their country'.

[sarge43]

19. Same here and I've known hundreds, maybe thousands, of military personnel.

There's as many reasons for serving as there are people who serve. I sure didn't enlist and stay in for love of country. I do love it and it got me through some hard times, but it never was my motivation.

A good teacher serves this country just as honorably as I did. Military service is one way, but certainly not the only way.

[patrice]

26. The KC Star did a story along those lines. Just asked several recent enlistees and printed what

they said. Most said stuff like you suggest, plus things like "To lose weight" and "To discipline my life" and "To get over an ex boy/girl -friend".

PIIISSSSSED a bunch of folks around here off real bad. I think the Star even had to kind of apologized for the story.

[sarge43]

30. Back when, the AF ran a survey of the troops.

One of the questions was "Why did you join the service?" Being multi choice, there were 20 plus possible answers. None of them were "Seemed like a good idea at the time" which would have been the closest to my answer.

Had a recruit tell my team chief and me that she join the AF because she liked Star Trek and she wanted to live like that. After she left the flight office, we expressed concerned she'd wind up in munition maintenance or finance.

[patrice]

36. I joined because I liked the people my Air Guard Fire Department husband was

working around and the Guard gave me some money for college. I think it worked out to about $4K, which helped quite a bit as I was un-employed at the time and trying to improve my professional status. Fat lot of good THAT did me! Lol!!

I don't fault people on their reasons. We just NEEED to be honest about such things.

I fault a country that doesn't provide enough opportunity, especially through education, so that people CAN make other choices. I have reasons to say that because of my own family and because I taught seniors in high school for 8 years and watched the Spring harvest the recruiters conducted every year, in between all of the praying around the flagpole that the "student"/church groups were doing. Got to know some Marines myself when I was deployed and found out what their circumstances were. That's all well and good, I suppose, if you have a fucked up life and THE GOVERNMENT comes along and straightens you out, but GOD! DAMN! why does the price HAVE to be innocent blood?????????????? And I mean innocent here in re people like the Iraqis - AND - the fact that our guys were LIED into that situation!

:grr: :grr: :grr: ~

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

10. I spent 4 years in the Marine Crotch doing absolutely nothing of benefit to my country.

Or, any one else.

[raouldukelives]

11. Virtually everyone is serving the corporations these days

Especially if you join the military. The best service one could do for the long term health of our country is to avoid serving corporations imho.

[patrice]

28. 1+++++++

[Cid_B]

13. Ever see that Chris Rock bit about "I take care of my kids!"

"Bitch, you're supposed to take care of your kids!"

Same for living a productive honest life. That is the minimum standard and not something to be applauded. Great job on not raping and pillaging today! Gold star for you!

Service to others (including but not limited to military service) is an elevation beyond that...

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

24. Hey, take a look at this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4931453

[county worker]

16. For me, I was drafted in 1966. My friends got married or went to college.

I came from a poor family and could not afford college let alone raise a family. I had job out of high school working as a clerk in a grocery store.

After my years in Vietnam, I had PTSD, was alcoholic and drug addicted. I ended up homeless and broke and after 10 years I started putting my life back together. My friends had jobs and a wife and kids and a house in the suburbs.

I won't say I was serving my country but to say that those during my time who did not go to Vietnam and did not suffer what I did were serving their country as much as me is bull shit! You could say resisting the war was serving your country and I would agree with that but if you didn't do either of those you were a leach.


Today things may be different but the returning Iraq and Afghan vets are suffering what those living an honest life never will begin to understand.


One of the right wing memes back in the 60's and 70's used by those who did not go to Vietnam was that they were serving their country by being a contributing citizen to society. Well I am a contributing citizen to society yet had an extra burden that they never had.

If ever there was a war where our way of life was really threatened and you did not take part in the defense of your way of life, I would consider you a taker, a user of people for your benefit.

[patrice]

27. Thank! You! 1++++

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

37. ''...if you didn't do either of those you were a leach.''

Am I required to consider that even remotely reasonable?

[petronius]

18. Sounds like something a chickenhawk college republican would say

I don't think it matters why someone chooses to join, but when you sign away 4+ years of your life and put yourself at the disposal of the country, that's service. There are non-military types of service (both formal and informal) that are equivalent, but as someone upthread mentioned, trying to live an honest productive life is the standard, not an exception (and military folk are expected to do that too)...

[pitohui]

20. i don't know, i didn't vote, but i tend to think that isn't really fair

we have a volunteer military, and these folks have VOLUNTEERED to put life, limb, and ass on the line to defend our country and also to protect the weak of other countries, for instance, while you may not support the war in iraq, many of them believed it was the right thing to do and they put their lives on the line in service of that belief


the military person does not ask about their personal safety, that is true service

the honest, productive civilian is not doing a service, he or she is doing a trade to benefit all, whereas the military person is well aware that they could be risking their very life and the great benefit to their country may come at the cost of their life

i see a difference here, i truly do

i am not willing to say "oh i am serving just as much by being honest" as someone fighting to defend my country, come on...EVERY adult who is not mentally impaired in some way is supposed to be honest, decent, productive, that is just expected adult behavior...the person risking life to protect the weaker of us is going a step beyond that

[mwrguy]

21. They are well compensated

college paid for, reenlistment bonuses, etc...

[Obamanaut]

34. And despite what many people will say, the actual pay isn't all that

bad.

Throw in dental care with no insurance cost, medical care with no insurance cost, meals/housing provided or money in lieu of the actual meals/housing.

[RaleighNCDUer]

23. A lot of them volunteered to have a job, to get an education, to just

get out of the house, to get out of a bad neighborhood - they did not volunteer to 'serve the country'. Sure, a few did. Particularly right after 9/11, in a rush of patriotism (but enlistment records, IIRC, do not show more than a couple percentage points surge in enlistments).

"the person risking life to protect the weaker of us is going a step beyond that"

How the fuck is someone fighting for oil in Iraq "protecting" ANYBODY?

[MountainLaurel]

25. They're protecting the right to drive gas guzzlers?

And totally ignore energy-saving measures?

:shrug:

[patrice]

29. I'd like to see figures on how many actually experience danger in any way other than

hypothetical.

It's mostly support. Yeah, everybody has to qualify with an M16, but that doesn't mean that there is a high probability that you'll ever use the darn thing.

[sarge43]

31. I fired the 16 exactly once in 21 years.

You're right; it is mostly support. This doesn't mean support troops can't be and aren't in harm's way, but the odds are usually in their favor.

[Cid_B]

42. What exactly would you base those figures on?

I can recall two separate incidents in Afghanistan (that I witnessed personally) that the threat came internally on the FOB.

The guy in the S1 (admin) section might experience danger at a reduced rate than the guy on patrol but the threat is still there, even in the center of Bagram.

[Arugula Latte]

39. When was the last time the military actually "defended" our country?

I would say a targeted operation like the Navy Seal Team strike against Bin Laden, yes, that qualifies as defense. Usually, however, they are invaders who are on the offensive, not the defensive.

[Obamanaut]

32. I went in the military in 1960 because I didn't know what else to do. We were

poor, and the prospects of college were very dim so I had not prepared myself in high school for that next step.

I spent 28 years in, retired in 1988.

During those 28 years, I had the opportunity for travel, got an Associates Degree at virtually no cost to me, got a wife (still with her), two daughters (at virtually no cost to me.)

I made many friends, some of whom died as a result of 'enemy' action. I was never injured in any way, but did see some small arms fire directed in my general direction (Da Nang and Chu Lai.)

It started because I didn't know what else to do (subject line), but continued because I really enjoyed the various jobs I had during those 28 years.

I have known many, many people during this same period who 'served their country' as much, if not more, than I did. Among these people I would include a great number of teachers, and many volunteers in some of the areas that I myself volunteered with.

I am not a patriot. I am an old guy who did what he thought he needed to do to feed his family.

[ashling]

35. I deal with this issue all the time with my govt. classes

I teach in Community College and a good many of my students are ex-military. Every time someone introduces themselves as militarty or ex, some in the class pee all over themselves to "thank them for their service" ... and yet when I talk about community service, public employees, other service a la JFK's innaugural, I get blank stares. I am so sick of the mentality pushed in our culture that military service is the only way to serve your country and you society.


I use this point when I talk about putting an end to the Bush tax cuts. We often hear tha "freedom isn't free" ... how do we apply this concept to our financial contribution to ou government

I hear re: military service, "But they risk their lives." Well, aside from the fact that they aren't the only ones who "risk" everything to contribute ...

I'm sorry this is a little disjointed, I am multi-tasking here (not very well LOL)

[Arugula Latte]

38. Most people in the military are badly mis-used. Their efforts go to prop up U.S. corporate power

and they don't make life better for anybody either here or abroad, and often they make life worse for people (untold thousands upon thousands killed and maimed and orphaned and widowed at our hands). Sorry, but that's the way it is.