What a fucking debacle this has been. And, no, we don't have a victory.

[woo me with science]

For those proclaiming a victory, I have one thing to say:

Bullshit.

Getting up there and spewing Republican framing of the economy for weeks is NOT helpful. Not in any way, shape, or form.

He has validated every single Republican lie about our economy and what needs to happen to fix it. The poison of having done that will infect our national discourse and the options available to us for the foreseeable future.

We needed a Democrat President to stand up for principles and policies that will actually work. We needed a Democratic President to LEAD, not more public mouthing of the lies perpetrated by the shills for Wall Street.

This is not over, and we are in a shitty position for his having done this. It is not over by a long shot.

[Fumesucker]

1. And now the wingers are already attacking him for proposing SS/Medicare/aid cuts.. n/t

[emulatorloo]

10. Who gives a fuck. They are disingenuous FUCKHEADS who want to turn Medicare into a voucher program

[Fumesucker]

18. Why give them ammunition?

Which Obama has clearly done..

[emulatorloo]

24. Doesn't matter. The FuckHeads always find something to lie about

They are still fuckheads

[woo me with science]

32. Oh, it matters.

We have a poisoned narrative in this country, and Obama is an enabler and promoter of it.

[Name removed]

94. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[booley]

187. fuck heads may always lie

but one doesn't help one's self by validating their lies.

[Capitalocracy]

62. Here's who gives a fuck: possibly enough of the population to swing an election.

They may not be the smartest portion of the population, but a lot of them will vote for whoever wasn't the one who signed off on cutting Medicare and SS.

[emulatorloo]

96. So they will vote for the side with the Ryan Plan?

Sounds to me like nobody is going to be signing off on cuts, the deal is dead.

[Capitalocracy]

111. Yep, that's exactly what they'll do, a lot of them. The gullible ones.

And there are enough of them to swing an election.

I don't know what the deal is with the deal. Who knows? We'll see, I guess.

[JDPriestly]

165. I met a woman today who thought that Obama was the first

to walk out on the budget talks.

Obama has not presented his case well. So of course a lot of Americans are confused.

[ZombieHorde]

131. I give a fuck because it fills voter's heads with false information. nt

[defendandprotect]

147. Exactly ... Obama is giving support to RW trickle down economics ... !!

Corporations don't create jobs -- they're sitting on trillions -- and there

are no jobs being produced --

This is a depression -- and we need another FDR!!!

[defendandprotect]

148. DEBT debate is intended to hide the discussion of UNEMPLOYMENT IN AMERICA ...!!

[defendandprotect]

145. Ohh..... too sadly funny -- !!!

[JVS]

158. They have the chess skills

[JDPriestly]

160. Obama should have been a smarter negotiator.

He really messed this up.

As I said this morning, let's say you are bitten by somebody's pit bull. So you hire a lawyer, and your lawyer offers to pay the vet bills of the pit bull owner without getting a promise from the other side to pay your doctor's bills.

That is essentially what Obama did in these negotiations.

That is not the way lawyers negotiate settlements. That is not the way union leaders negotiate contracts. That is not the way housing project developers negotiate their contracts either.

In fact, the only person who negotiates that way is Obama.

I can't believe what he is doing. It's backwards.

[Bluenorthwest]

188. He is no Swifty Lazar, that's for sure....

nt

[Jackpine Radical]

202. He messed up nothing.

He ended up exactly where he wanted to.

[mmonk]

2. There are no victories in Republican style budget cuts in a down economy

such as this.

[woo me with science]

34. That's the crux of the matter. Three hundred economists warned against this crap.

This was orchestrated, and now we are expected to celebrate and be relieved about a rightward shift that never should have happened under a Democratic President.

There is a much larger agenda being carried out here.

[defendandprotect]

153. Agree re the "much larger agenda being carried out here" .... Obama has to go -- !!

Giving him another term would only give him more time to destroy Dem Party

and whatever is left of safety nets!!

[hulka38]

183. That's the big picture.

Great post.

[Joe the Revelator]

3. False alarm guys! The sky is STILL falling!

[The Big Vetolski]

13. Are you even capable of looking at anything from a perspective of

Pro or Anti Obama? BTW, the sky IS falling. On you. And you don't even know it. It fell on me years ago.

[Joe the Revelator]

15. Rephrase your question.

[The Big Vetolski]

70. OK. Do you see anything going on politically outside the context

of either being for Obama or against Obama? Sorry, I don't know how to make it any simpler than that.

[Joe the Revelator]

98. No that works, i get what you're saying, and the answer is yes, of course I do...I also still trust

..the guy who's decision making I voted to trust.

[The Big Vetolski]

126. Well, that's fair. The difference between you and I is that I have

lost my trust in the person I voted for.

[woo me with science]

35. The lack of empathy is stunning.

We have a new, Republican narrative of winning and losing. Damn the casualties.

[The Big Vetolski]

64. Isn't it? Thank you for the dose of sanity. nt

[Joe the Revelator]

100. This cliche is so played out....everything is not falling apart...

[liberation]

134. Why are you surprised?

These "new" Dems look, walk, and quack like the "old" republicans used to. Utter lack of empathy included.


This is a complete neo-liberal narrative, which is why they can't compute why anyone would be opposed to it.

[stockholmer]

139. thank you for your contributions

:hi:

[lunatica]

4. Since he doen't have the votes to pass anything what you want is a dictator

[freshwest]

5. +1. So much easier that way. The GOP would love it, too.

[Luminous Animal]

9. No. What we want is for the most powerful man in the world to make a case for the powerless.

[emulatorloo]

26. He made it today at the press conference

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1552592&mesg_id=1552592

Short except, take a minute to read it.

[Marr]

113. That is boilerplate political speak.

But it's a good example of Obama's talent for speaking in a way that allows people to hear whatever they want to hear.

Taken in the context of his other remarks (not to mention his negotiation offers), it seems like little more than an his allusion to that 'SS checks won't go out if I don't get my grand bargain' fearmongering from recent days.

You weren't suggesting that comment was some sort of sales pitch for rational, Keynesian economics, were you?

[lunatica]

63. What you want is a dictator who you think will love the people

[treestar]

149. Most powerful man in the world

Would be a dictator.

That is a dumb old phrase. No US President is meant to be all powerful.

[fivepennies]

12. Why would we need a dictator?

Kennedy's Solution
President Kennedy recognized that our financial system was flawed. He planned to eliminate the Federal Reserve's contrived control mechanism on our future. He signed executive order 11110 as a first step.

Executive Order 11110 issued on June 4, 1963 gave the President the Authority to order the United States Treasury "to issue silver certificates against any silver bullion, silver, or standard silver dollars in the Treasury." For every ounce of silver in the U.S. Treasury's vault, the government could introduce a certificate or warehouse receipt to be used as money. This followed IMO the constitution's requirement that the government provide the medium of exchange and it follows the coinage act requirements. Basing the monetary system on silver and not gold was also very important because silver is abundant and very difficult to control.

Kennedy issued nearly $4.3 billion in U.S. notes and was introducing them into circulation, with a plan to continue until sufficient currency was in circulation to manage the flow of goods and services. The ramifications of this bill are enormous. President Kennedy was on his way to putting the Federal Reserve Bank of New York out of business. When enough of his United States Notes were in circulation he would eliminate the Federal Reserve notes.

http://www.kamron.com/economics/kennedy.htm

[lunatica]

67. wow.

that made sense.

[fivepennies]

93. Simplicity.

I'm glad somebody besides me sees the logic in Kennedy's plan. Of course you do know why it didn't go forward, don't you?

[JDPriestly]

170. Just as a little sideline. Remember how the Hunt brothers

tried to corner silver in the 1970s following Kennedy's presidency and assassination?

Beginning in the early 1970s, Hunt and his brother William Herbert Hunt began accumulating large amounts of silver. By 1979, they had nearly cornered the global market.<6> In the last nine months of 1979, the brothers profited by an estimated $2 billion to $4 billion in silver speculation, with estimated silver holdings of 100 million ounces (6.25 million pounds).<7>

During the Hunt brothers' accumulation of the precious metal, prices of silver futures contracts and silver bullion during 1979 and 1980 rose from $11 an ounce in September 1979 to $50 an ounce in January 1980. Silver prices ultimately collapsed to below $11 an ounce two months later. The largest single day drop in the price of silver occurred on Silver Thursday.<1>

Hunt filed for bankruptcy under Chapter 11 of the Federal Bankruptcy Code in September 1988, largely due to lawsuits incurred as a result of his silver speculation.<1>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelson_Bunker_Hunt

We need to remember that this is not the same Hunt who is sometimes named in the conspiracy theory to assassinate Kennedy.

[fivepennies]

196. Yes, I remember the Hunt brothers

although I had never given any thought to the timing of their shenanigans as they related to Kennedy's EO. Actually, back when the Hunt brothers were locking up silver and the price was shooting up like the shuttle I wasn't even aware Kennedy had written such an order.

But look at the timing here - Kennedy's EO was signed in June of 1963 and almost 4.3 billion dollars in these silver backed notes were circulated by the date of Kennedy's death in November when Johnson took over. Those notes were then quietly gathered up by the feds and probably destroyed. Those that they couldn't find were declared "collectibles" that held no value.

Kennedy's EO was not repealed until 1982 when Pub.L. 97-258 was passed by congress, and then in September of 1987 Reagan signed EO 12608, doubling down on the revocation of Kennedy's order. So from November of '63 until at least 1982 there was the possibility that his order could have been resurrected (unlikely though that may be) and the brothers may have figured either to undercut that possibility or to profit from it somehow. Either way, they got stung.

[woo me with science]

17. How utterly pathetic when your strongest argument is for impotence,

even in the face of this:

[ProSense]

21. Here

graphics that are actually from this year, in fact, this month:

[woo me with science]

30. He offered SS and Medicare, against the wishes of a majority of Americans,

of both parties, and he bemoaned the fact that the deal was not taken.

We are not out of the woods by a long shot. This is a fucking disgrace.

[ProSense]

44. Oh bullfuckingshit

no such think

"We are not out of the woods by a long shot. This is a fucking disgrace."

The "fucking disgrace" is the constant idiotic spin to claim Republicans have an advantage.

[EFerrari]

55. Of course they have the advantage, he's been validating their premise

for weeks.

[ProSense]

58. Oh noes!

Boehner and the Republicans have the President trapped. He's going to cave!

Their "premise" has the advantage! Run for the hills!

[EFerrari]

61. His premise, too now. Congratulations. n /t

[ProSense]

72. We're doomed. Congrats! n/t

[defendandprotect]

155. Couldn't we imagine W with Prez and Senate, bowing to Pelosi demands this way ... ???!!!

We've had months now of this debt fakery on both sides --

WHERE ARE THE DISCUSSION RE UNEMPLOYMENT IN AMERICA?

Where are Dems taking back power from the FED to decide on the economic fate

of Americans?

[woo me with science]

57. "...the constant idiotic spin to claim Republicans have an advantage."

That might be the single most absurd sentence I have seen on DU in recent history.

Our President just stood up there and admitted having offered a deal of historic capitulation to Republicans, including slashing Medicare and Social Security. AND bemoaned that the deal was not accepted...


And you claim Republicans don't have an ADVANTAGE?????

Good fucking god! :wow:

[ProSense]

82. "And you claim Republicans don't have an ADVANTAGE?????"

I know you want Boehner to win and the Republicans to have the advantage, but even Boehner doesn't see it that way:

The president is emphatic that taxes have to be raised. The president is adamant that we cannot make fundamental changes to our entitlement programs."

Oh, and pick your mouth up off the floor, Boehner losing isn't the end of the world.

[woo me with science]

97. Strangely enough, that's the narrative you *and* Boehner have been pushing.

Despite the President's own words on multiple occasions.
Despite the word of Nancy Pelosi and other Democrats.
Despite common sense and review of the patterns of this administration.

There is a certain cleverness in trying to convince Americans to accept and even feel relief at moving rightward, because there is someone else even further right.

Like any shell game in a carnival, though, when you pull the same trick often enough, people tend to catch on...

[ProSense]

103. Somehow

"Despite the word of Nancy Pelosi and other Democrats."

...I get the feeling you only hear what you want to hear, or you're not listening

Pelosi Remarks Following Democratic Caucus Meeting Today

Washington, D.C. – Democratic Leader Nancy Pelosi, Democratic Whip Steny Hoyer, Assistant Democratic Leader James E. Clyburn, Democratic Caucus Chairman John Larson, Democratic Caucus Vice Chair Xavier Becerra, and Budget Committee Ranking Member Chris Van Hollen held a media availability this morning following a Democratic Caucus meeting in the Capitol Visitor Center. Below are the Leader’s remarks and a transcript of a brief question and answer session:

Leader Pelosi’s Remarks:

“Thank you very much, Mr. Becerra. To both of my colleagues, the Chairman and the distinguished Vice Chairman of the Caucus: Yes, teamwork pays off. It did last night for the Democrats in the baseball game and for women’s soccer team, and we are very proud of both of them.

“I’m very proud of our House Democratic Caucus. I wish that all of you could have heard the knowledge, the respect of the values that they are bringing over and over again to this discussion, most currently this morning. We stand with the President of the United States in the hope that we could have a ‘grand bargain’ that takes us well into the future with deficit reduction.

“I remind you that it was only a week ago that we were hopeful that this could happen in a bipartisan way. Thursday, we left the meeting—of last week—we left the meeting with some spirit of cooperation that we could work on a ‘grand bargain’ for great deficit reduction so that we could move on to job creation. Friday, we were working on that. Saturday, the Republicans walked away from that. And since then, we’ve been trying to find out if that’s still possible and if not, what is possible. But whatever is possible, and it’s not possible for us to reduce the deficit and create jobs on the backs of America’s working families.

“So we continue to say to the President: ‘Congratulations. We are proud of the work you are doing, and we are glad that it does not reduce benefits for Medicare and Social Security beneficiaries.’ It doesn’t mean we are not open to initiatives that will strengthen those, Medicare and Social Security, that will cut cost and keep them solvent for a longer period of time. But we are not reducing the deficit on the backs, and give tax cuts to the wealthy, on the backs of our Social Security and Medicare recipients.

“When I came to the table two days ago, I brought with me the priorities expressed to me by a large number of students who came to my office the other day. They said, ‘We know the deficit is not good for our future. We all stand ready to help reduce it, think everybody should participate in that. We hope you won’t diminish the prospects we have for college education. We want you to know how important Medicare and Medicaid are to our families. It enables them to allow us to go to college by taking some of the fear out of health care costs for them. And of course if you are young and you are in college or you are newly graduated, jobs jobs, jobs, jobs—they are important to you. So don’t do anything that impedes the economic growth.’ Their wisdom is so clear.

“But what we saw at the table was an attempt by the Republicans to increase the cost to students by over 30 billion dollars without taking one red cent of sacrifice from the wealthiest people in our country, from corporations sending jobs overseas, tax subsidies for Big Oil.

“So again, our Caucus focused on our priorities, which are based on our values. We support our President for the ‘grand bargain.’ We hope that can still happen, and we know that it will happen—whatever happens, we will not be reducing benefits to Medicare and Social Security recipients.

“With that I am pleased to yield to the leader in charge of ‘Make It In America’ in terms of job creation, our distinguished Whip, Steny Hoyer.”

<...>

[woo me with science]

119. You know, Prosense,

You know exactly what comments I was referring to. You know where the quotes are that confirm what I wrote. I know you know where they are, and that you read them, because you posted in the threads.

This is the level of honesty that we have come to see in these discussions.

Shame on you. What a waste of time any attempt at real conversation always turns out to be.

[JDPriestly]

178. The Make It in America effort needs much more press.

That is precisely what we need.

I think we have to find some way to impose taxes on imports of products and services -- not a huge tax but something that will relieve employers who provide jobs in America and working Americans of some of the tax burden.

Do you have a link to the Make It in America project?

[JDPriestly]

174. Please see my post above.

Obama is a lousy negotiator. Just awful.

You offer something small and then you see what the other side offers.

He immediately offered cuts. That was just naive.

You have to be willing or at least give the impression to the other side that you will push things to the limit.

The Republicans won over Obama because Obama is fearful.

That is not surprising. Look who his chief financial adviser is: Timothy Geithner. Talk about the look of a deer in the headlights. Geithner seems frightened all the time.

Obama needs someone with some courage and strength to back him up.

I cannot understand why Obama hasn't offered Timothy Geithner some lesser post in the government. Obama needs someone with courage, with a steel spine at his side. Or else he needs to get a steel spine of his own. Bit late for that.

Obama needs a financial adviser with a sense of justice and moral integrity. That is the only way he can save the nation to say nothing of his presidency.

I hope Obama wises up soon.

[Hawkowl]

190. Social Security is NOT AN ENTITLEMENT program

Stop using Rethuglican, rightwing language!!! For the love of god!

SS and Medicare are insurance programs that we all pay into. Correction, everyone who WORKS for a living pays into as it is a tax on labor!

Obama has no business fucking with these programs which are solvent, and are cash flow POSITIVE in terms of the deficit and the total debt.

And yes Rethuglicans have one, great advantage: OBAMA! The most right wing Democratic president in the history of the party :puke:

[defendandprotect]

159. Unfortunately, the ADVANTAGE they have is Obama who is working

with the GOP to destroy Social Security and Medicare -- !!

As has always been clear, the GOP couldn't do this alone --

and certainly having control merely of the House wouldn't do it --

Obama has been fakery from the first to the last --

It's over --

[swilton]

193. the mortgage tax deduction is also on the table according to

Michael Hudson

Two illuminating videos

Debt crisis – Michael Hudson on Democracy Now
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x602883

Bernie Brunch with Thom Hartman
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x602706

[Recursion]

141. Well, once those people VOTE FOR CONGRESSPEOPLE who will do what they want...

...we'll be in a position to enact good laws.

[inna]

114. wha?? ffs

you get a cookie

[ProSense]

6. It was a

victorious ass-kicking

Krugman: Backbone!

Olbermann:

[KittyWampus]

7. Obama took the fight to the Republican playing field. It leaves him in a position of

strength for the upcoming battles.

HE EXPOSED THE LIE THAT REPUBLICANS CARE ABOUT THE DEFICIT.

That you don't get something that simple at this point indicates you are wedded to your preconceived bias against Obama.

You've got your narrative and refuse to yield.

Well, welcome to to your own bubble.

[EFerrari]

19. Offering your enemy everything they want in their own terms

is not taking the fight anywhere. It's an offer to surrender.

That they refused his surrender is nothing to write home about.

Good grief.

[chalky]

36. I'm sorry, but if they got "everything they want on their own terms"

WHY did Boner walk away again?

[EFerrari]

43. Because they don't want a deal, apparently. And lucky for us. n /t

[Middle finga]

154. I agree, I'm glad they walked away from this shitty deal.

The thing I'm upset about is that the person I voted for and USE to believe in, offered up this deal.

[Supersedeas]

207. They backed away in an effort to get maybe just a little tinsy bit more

[hay rick]

50. Surrender offer "victory" explained.

Obama offered to give up mom, dad, and all the kids.
The Republicans refused because they want grandma and the family dog too.
NOW Obama is pissed.

[EFerrari]

54. Thank you. n /t

[woo me with science]

75. Good summary. nt

[Nay]

135. Exactly. Obama didn't offer them absolutely EVERYTHING, so the deal

is OFF!

[defendandprotect]

162. Agree --- and where are all of our elected Democrats and Party standing against Obama's deals ...???

Only 77 progressive in the USHR have stood against him --

We had better find out what's left of the Dem Party after 20 years of Koch Bros/DLC

influence over it --

[woo me with science]

37. Oh please.

He validated every Republican lie of the past decade.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProSense]

11. "we are in a shitty position for his having done this"

Translation: Boehner is winning. He's a genius. Obama is a fool. WTF is he doing! How dare anyone appreciate anything this President does?

[woo me with science]

40. Oh my.

It always seems to come down to not "appreciating" him enough...

And I have never called Obama a fool. I think he knows exactly what he is doing.

[ProSense]

47. Oh

"It always seems to come down to not 'appreciating' him enough... "

Not enough people hating him for you?

Why, oh why does anyone appreciate President Obama. Hate him now! Agree that he's weak and the Republicans have in a corner. Please!

[woo me with science]

79. LOL.

See, you bring up Obama as unappreciated. Then you try to imply that I made it about him.

You would be better at your shilling if you took a basic rhetoric class, to avoid these elementary mistakes.

[Chan790]

115. As my Auntie Robin says "Oh bless you, darlin'."

Usually applied while she looks at you like you're touched in the head.

A brief synopsis. Please point out how my logic is faulty.

Boehner isn't winning. Eric Cantor and Michele Bachmann are winning. They want a default, probably going to get a default.

Obams isn't winning. He wants a deal at any cost and can't get one even by utterly capitulating.

Are We The People winning? We're most certainly not.

[customerserviceguy]

140. You're exactly right

Cantor and Bachmann do want a default, they'd love to watch the various parties fight and bicker with each other over who did and didn't get paid in August, with what income the federal government does have available. Obama and Geithner will get all the blame.

Unless, by some accounting sleight of hand, the President and the Treasury Secretary can put off the day of reckoning for another month or so. Then Cantor and Bachmann would really love that, they'd say that the Administration was lying in order to get a worse deal for the American people.

I really don't think that the McConnell plan, or any variation of it is going to get through the House. If Boehner does put a lot of pressure on the tea partiers, they'll replace him with Cantor, if not now, then after the next election.

[defendandprotect]

163. +1 --

[Hawkowl]

191. I'd appreciate it

If he stopped parroting right wing talking points about the economy, the budget, wars, and clean coal. He makes Nixon look like Mahatma Gandhi.

[ProSense]

16. More

"We needed a Democrat President to stand up for principles and policies that will actually work. We needed a Democratic President to LEAD, not more public mouthing of the lies perpetrated by the shills for Wall Street."

Translation: How dare he use the "bully pulpit" and try to claim that it's leadership!

Wait, is that right?

[emulatorloo]

22. I've been noticing that a lot.

People claiming "Obama will not use his bully pulpit" and then trying to dismiss it when he does.

[alcibiades_mystery]

95. Axiom: Everything Obama does is wrong, evil, or weak

If you understand how our so-called progressives base every single analysis of everything on this simple axiom, you have a good sense of how they operate.

They are dishonest to the core, or deeply fanatical and dangerous fools.

[defendandprotect]

164. Obama has been using his "bully pulpit" in this debate to support GOP trickle down ...

and attacks on Social Security --

Party over principles just moves us further to the right --

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[EFerrari]

33. Bragging about how far he was willing to cut our programs is leadership now?

[emulatorloo]

38. Boehner wants to turn Medicare into a voucher program

And the house would NEVER vote for raising taxes.

Stop, think, put 2 and 2 together.

[EFerrari]

41. Take your own advice. n/t

[emulatorloo]

48. So you believe the teabag house would vote for a revenue increase?

[EFerrari]

56. What does that have to do with offering them Social Securiy and Medicare?

Nothing.

[emulatorloo]

87. An offer that would not be accepted

[woo me with science]

118. Just wait, grasshopper. nt

[defendandprotect]

167. What's the point of it -- to show Obama's disdain for SS and Medicare?

[defendandprotect]

168. What's the point of Obama offering SS and Medicare ... ? More game-playing with citizens lives?

OBAMA IS DIDAPPOINTED HIS OFFER WASN'T ACCEPTED -- !!!


It's over --

[woo me with science]

42. Stop. Think. Put two and two together.

It is so easy to move rightward when there is always someone further right.

Hmm.

[defendandprotect]

166. +1

[peace4ever]

69. wrong - taking a 'strong' stand for CORPORATE principals will not endear him to democrats or repubs

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[in_cog_ni_to]

28. aaaah. Longtime DUers are now trolls. Nice. n/t

[defendandprotect]

169. If you support NEW DEAL programs, you're now a "troll" -- !!!

but if you're willing to watch Obama toss Social Security and Medicare to the

Repugs, that's Democratic Party victory!!!


Party over principles only moves us further to the right --

[Fire1]

198. It took awhile but they finally made it! n/t

[emulatorloo]

29. No, not trolls. But it does feel Like frantic "Damage Control."

[EFerrari]

31. There is no moving of goal posts. Hands OFF Social Security

Medicaid and Medicare.

[emulatorloo]

45. So you are willing to demagog the word "cuts" and pretend it is the same as benefit cuts?

You do understand that the Republican's goal is

- eliminating Medicaid
- turning Medicare into a coupon program
- "privatizing" social security.

That's wht boehner wanted, and he did not get it.

You are one of the most rational posters I know on DU.

[EFerrari]

49. Of course it means benefit cuts. This is not a game.

And Obama is no slacker when it comes to privatization himself. So you can't shove this off on the Republicans alone.

[emulatorloo]

59. And you know this how? Medicare was cut in '92', and it was all on the provider side

Can Medicare negotiate with drug companies for lower prices like the VA does?

No it can't.

Would savings to Medicare thru negotiating with pharma be a " benefit cut".

No.

[EFerrari]

65. I know this because I've read every assessment from CEPR

and from Bernie Sanders and because Nancy said she would not go with chained CPI -- I guess she was just responding to my paranoia? No chance.

[woo me with science]

74. The complete denial of and refusal to acknowledge Obama's own words is just Orwellian:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2011/07/11/press-conference-president

"It is hard to persuade people to do hard stuff that entails trimming benefits and increasing revenues. But the reason we’ve got a problem right now is people keep on avoiding hard things, and I think now is the time for us to go ahead and take it on."

Pelosi and others have confirmed that benefits were part of the deal offered.

[emulatorloo]

91. And what percentage of the cuts were benefit cuts vs cuts.

Do you know?

Boehner: The president is emphatic that taxes have to be raised. The president is adamant that we cannot make fundamental changes to our entitlement programs."

[woo me with science]

101. Are you still trying to claim that the President had benefits off the table?

I grow very tired of posting the same quotes from him indicating that they are ON the table.

Really, this gets old. NO benefit cuts are acceptable.

[emulatorloo]

105. Find where I said that. i didn't. The point I was making: you claim cuts always equals benefit cuts

That is not true, as we've seen in the examples I gave you.

P.S. Another case where you are willing to misrepresent in order to " win"

[woo me with science]

116. That was a foolish and nonsensical response.

I have never claimed that the whole of the package is benefit cuts, only that benefit cuts are unacceptable as part of the package. That is a very simple and clear position that has not changed since the beginning of the argument. Thus, your complaint about my opposition to the plan is utterly nonsensical, UNLESS you are trying to argue that benefit cuts are NOT part of the package.

Stop playing juvenile word games.

Let me make this very clear to you. Cuts to Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security benefits are unacceptable. Obama has defended including such cuts, and we now have confirmation from Nancy Pelosi and other Democrats that such cuts were part of the plan offered by this President, who then publicly bemoaned the fact that it was not accepted.

What a betrayal of the American people, who overwhelmingly reject such cuts, seeing them for what they really are: a theft and a gift to the moneyed interests in Washington.

Shame on any Democrat who rationalizes this attempt at theft.

[emulatorloo]

122. And that was a bullying rant, which tries to divert from the fact that you are willing to lie about

me.

Basically you are willing to lie about anything.

[defendandprotect]

171. You're grasping at straws --- it's over -- Obama is over --

[EFerrari]

144. Some highlights of last week's reporting.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1551722&mesg_id=1558596

And my reality check that I'm neither irrational or sloganeering is that most of those people are using much stronger language than I have. What is yours?

[TBF]

127. Yes, it's what Boehner and the other baggers want -

but it is not what most Americans want. Not that any of the politicians care what we think.

[Ikonoklast]

14. Figures.

And he didn't cure cancer, either, the jerk.

UNREC.

[gratuitous]

20. Oh come on

Yeah, they raped our mothers and fathers to death before our eyes, made us dig our own graves and then shot us in the back of the head to tumble in. But they didn't shit in the grave before they shot us, did they? You know what that is? Duh! Winning!

[bigwillq]

23. K and R

We're probably in a worse place than before. Scary stuff. Not a victory at all for Americans.

[Hydra]

39. This wasn't and won't be a "victory"

Obama is FRANTIC to get these SSI cuts through. The Republicans smell blood though- they ant the cuts AND no tax increases for the 1% AND a cut for said 1%

If Bush were doing this, there's no way he'd have Dem support.

[emulatorloo]

46. You confuse your opinion with reality.

[bluethruandthru]

51. Yep...when Obama keeps talking about social security and other "entitlements" contributing

to our deficit - I want to spit. How can anyone say he's a democrat? Social Security is one of the cornerstones of the democratic party and obama can't wait to bargain it away over the republicans FAKE furor over the deficit!!! I'm sure obama knows social security doesn't add to the deficit - so why doesn't he say so? Instead he perpetuates the republican lie. The charade that Americans are being spoonfed about the deficit and how we're going bankrupt because of social security is really astounding. But what's most astonishing is our so called democratic president leading the charge to mislead us.

[defendandprotect]

172. Agree -- the STALLING here is important however ... voting for the "lesser evil" means

money to the party -- even though those votes move the party further to the right

and Congress further to the right --


It also means power for those supporting Obama -- important to preserve the status quo!!


It's over -- let's walk away from those who want to deny it --

[swilton]

195. +++

[treestar]

52. Republican House

Are you dealing with that reality?

[emulatorloo]

68. Hard for some to wrap their heads around

[woo me with science]

81. Yes, we must move ever rightward,

and it's okay, because there is always someone further right!

[treestar]

92. So get to the voters

We are doing a poor job. We let the right win in 2010. Now pay the price.

[woo me with science]

102. We sure did.

Apparently that "hope and change" was not materializing.

[emulatorloo]

108. Were you one of the ones being "outraged" and writing threads trying to depress Democratic turnout?

You know the kinds of threads I mean

"HOW DARE JOE BIDEN TELL US TO VOTE IN THIS ELECTION! THEY ARE USING FEAR OF REPUBLICAN CONTROL OF THE HOUSE TO BLACKMAIL US."

Be honest.

[woo me with science]

117. "Trying to depress Democratic turnout."

Here we go again, ad nauseum.

Vote for the "D" after the name, regardless of policy.

We desperately need a primary.

[emulatorloo]

121. Answer the question. Yes or No. Were you writing those kinds of threads in 2010 or not?

Your attempt to divert and distract from my question indicates that you probably were.

[Marr]

129. I expect you would interpret any form of critical appraisal as 'an attempt to depress

Democratic voter turn-out', so it's sort of a silly question.

[treestar]

150. There were plenty of threads doing that

The type saying oh, I'm so disappointed, I'm not going to vote.

Going on about Democrats being no different from Republicans.

[treestar]

151. You got your change then when you let Republicans win

That'll be change, all right.

[defendandprotect]

176. Repugs won because Obama betrayed nation on Health Care and Wars -- --

We need a liberal challenger in 2012 -- and time to start now!!

[swilton]

197. Watch this

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=385&topic_id=602637&mesg_id=602637

[defendandprotect]

205. Bernie should run -- But, how about Alan Grayson, James Galbraith ... most of all ...

we need democrats who have a conscience and who aren't pre-owned and pre-bribed

by corporate money.

And we need TWO anti-war candidates -- !!!

[defendandprotect]

173. As though W would have been bowing down to a House controlled by Pelosi -- ??? ROFL

While he controlled presidency and Senate --


:rofl: :rofl:

:rofl: :rofl:

[hay rick]

53. K&R

[ClarkUSA]

60. Boehner: "The Pres. is adamant that we cannot make fundamental changes to our entitlement programs."

Guess some people wouldn't know a Democrat if he were the first African-American POTUS in history.

[EFerrari]

71. Calling a bluff in a fake crisis? (Swoon) n/t

[ClarkUSA]

76. "fake crisis"? That's what Republicans have said, too. That opinion is terribly uninformed.

[peace4ever]

80. fingers in your ears

eh?

so, only those who agree with you have a relevant and informed opinion?

gottcha.

[ClarkUSA]

84. Anyone who thinks this is a "fake crisis" is uninformed about macroeconomics.

Thus, their opinion is irrelevant.

[woo me with science]

110. Absolute and complete bullshit.

They knew the debt ceiling would have to be raised. The debt ceiling has been raised many times in the past, and it was never a surprise or a crisis.

There is absolutely no reason whatsoever that we needed to be in a position of emergency meetings behind closed doors, outside of the view of Americans, in order to rush a "deal" involving fundamental social programs.

Social Security has nothing to do with the deficit. There is no justification for rushing through changes to this bedrock social program within a couple of WEEKS, behind closed doors, with the timing such that the American people have no opportunity to know what is going on or weigh in.

It is a manufactured crisis to keep Americans out of the process, and it is an outrage.

[ClarkUSA]

120. More empty rhetoric. How predictable. Your opinions are amusing fantasia.

[JDPriestly]

184. It is in a sense a manufactured crisis.

That is because the underlying problems, the causes for our huge debt, are not being addressed.

Some of the major ones are that too much of our GDP goes to the military; that medical expenses are rising uncontrollably (and the money is not always going for legitimate medical care, but too often to insurance company CEOs and shareholders), tax cuts for the rich, untaxed imports, untaxed outsourcing, tax avoidance in offshore accounts.

Obama has specifically mentioned cutting Social Security, Medicaid and Medicare, and he has talked about raising money. But he should ONLY talk about raising money and avoiding waste. Let the Republicans talk about the cuts to Social Security, etc. all they want.

Obama's tactic will never get anyone to a middle ground.

And he should not be even thinking about cutting Social Security, Medicaid and Medicare. Cuts to the benefits under those programs would just have to be paid from other funds.

There are a number of programs about which you might say, Oh, that is not a necessity. We can cut that.

Take senior citizen centers and the low-cost meals they provide. I know a woman who is 94. She lives near on her own and takes care of herself pretty well. She cooked every meal for years. But now, she walks to her senior citizens' center and eats lunch there a few times a week.

Sounds like a waste of money until you think that if she did not have those meals available, she might not be able to live on her own for long. She cannot drive. She can only walk short distances, and shopping is therefore a bit difficult for her. If she did not have the meals, she probably would have to live in a retirement home and the government would be paying a larger part of her costs.

So, a lot of these programs that look frivolous actually save money, lots of money.

False economy.

[leveymg]

204. Obama's solution is the crisis - the budget ceiling "crisis" is phony -- both are phony.

American electoral politics and government has become a farce and needs to be restructured. The next question is, by whom? Let's take the initiative, folks. Just do it.

[girl gone mad]

208. It's a fake crisis and I will challenge your macroeconomic education..

any day of the year.

[woo me with science]

83. I bow to your expertise

on GOP talking points.

[ClarkUSA]

88. I owe you thanks for making me so familiar with them.

[EFerrari]

136. Wrong. And if you want the litany of people who agree with me

from Dean Baker to De Fazio, I'll be happy to give it to you. You have it exactly backward.

Better yet, read or watch this:

Pushing Crisis: GOP Cries Wolf on Debt Ceiling in Order to Impose Radical Pro-Rich Agenda

http://www.democracynow.org/2011/7/22/pushing_crisis_gop_cries_wolf_on

[Fire1]

199. Republican talking point = troll. n/t

[peace4ever]

77. but they can be cut, and thats what folks are angry about

fyi

[ClarkUSA]

78. So what? The numbers were part of Pres. Obama's bluff and Boehner folded.

Much ado about absolutely nothing. President Obama knew Republicans would never go for a 50% tax revenue increase. Enough with the melodrama.

[woo me with science]

86. And he has to make the act look especially realistic by bemoaning that they did not take the deal!

He is one clever carnie!

[ClarkUSA]

90. It's called rope-a-dope to the politically uninformed, as Lawrence O'Donnell would tell you.

He knows a lot more about how Capitol Hill works than you.

[woo me with science]

104. Yes, I know. It's all personal.

And we should defer to our "leaders" who know more than we do.

Funny how the argument keeps coming back to that.

This nation did not vote for a clever carnie playing cheap rope-a-dopes while validating and cementing Republican lies about our economy and what must be done to fix it.

We hoped for and expected something different. After years of Republican poison and lies, we expected from Day One a shift in the narrative in Washington. We expected this gifted speaker and scholar to stand up, lead, and move us toward fundamental change.

Instead, we got a carnie, a liar, and a spokesman for the Republican narrative.

What a pathetic outcome.

[Name removed]

109. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[treestar]

152. And Boner whines that the President will not back off on raising

taxes on the wealthy!

But that is not mentioned at all on DU.

[defendandprotect]

177. Taxes on wealthy are lowest they've ever been -- !!! While OBAMA EXTENDED THE TAX CUTS FOR RICH!!

[cherokeeprogressive]

66. K + R

God damn there is no better entertainment than DU and its hero worshippers.

The man stands at the podium and says "I got nothin" and you'd think he'd just walked on water.

[dkf]

89. Apparently if he just wants a simple increase in the debt ceiling

"I got nothin" is a win.

[Modern_Matthew]

73. Stockholm Syndrome is a scary and frustrating mindfuck. nt

[dionysus]

85. yup. it's all obama's fault.

:cry:

[Safetykitten]

99. It is so not over. This is going to get so ugly, with us as the sacrifice.

[woo me with science]

106. It is going to happen, absolutely.

Right now we are watching the laying of the groundwork to convince the sheep to be grateful that they were bludgeoned in a less painful way than the "Bad Cop" would have done it.

[Safetykitten]

107. So correct...

[tomp]

124. i blame the obamaphiliacs.

a truly ugly disease: the compulsion to fellate a wolf in sheep's clothing.

[libmom74]

128. nt

:rofl:

[inna]

112. who are delusionals who are "proclaiming victory", lol?

[tomp]

123. the entire obama presidency is a debacle.....

.....for ordinary citizens and a boondoggle for the rich, and especially for rich criminals, i.e., bankers, polluters, and war mongers.

[defendandprotect]

179. +1000% -- and any future time Obama spends in WH is a danger to anything left of party!!

Don't think this will end with Social security and Medicare --

Koch Bros/DLC are after much, much more -- !!

[DirkGently]

125. "spewing Republican framing of the economy" Exactly.

[Jim_Shorts]

130. Now I get the whole debt ceiling thing

I glued all of my bills to the living room ceiling and sat back in my old cracked and worn recliner and looked up. Those intelligent politicians are right, the debt ceiling that I created is totally unacceptable and I need to deal with it. Even though my Social Security has absolutely nothing to do with my new ceiling and will do absolutely nothing to fix it, I am willing to let those distinguished gentlemen withhold a portion of it and instead give it to the real Americans - the job creators.

Problem solved ....errr ..wait ..huh?

[MissDeeds]

132. Excellent post

I agree completely. This is a complete disaster and no amount of spinning BS from Obama's supporters can change that. Obama is not a friend to the Democratic Party and sure as hell does not deserve to be our nominee.

[JoeyT]

133. It was all eight dimensional chess.

He was just bluffing the Republicans. And he never offered it to bluff, anyone that says he did is lying. Cutting SS/Medicare is progressive. He offered to cut waste but not benefits! You never loved him anyway!

It's sort of funny that we're seeing multiple explanations for what he did. out of all those only one could even possibly be true.

[Vattel]

161. Cognitive dissonance sometimes takes a while to resolve itself.

Eventually they will see that he did sincerely offer to cut medicare and SS benefits, and then (if there is a deal) they will shift to saying, "but he had to compromise to avoid default," or "we had to cut benefits because otherwise Medicare and SS will run out of money."

[totodeinhere]

137. Someone must stand up and take him on in the primaries and beat him.

This nation cannot stand five more years of Barack Obama and we sure as hell don't need an extremist Republican either. That is a Hobson's choice. Our only hope is a successful challenge to Obama from the left. There is still time to mount a campaign. A prominent qualified progressive who loves his or her country needs to step forward now.

[defendandprotect]

180. dupe

[defendandprotect]

181. Exactly -!! We should be demanding Obama RESIGN now -- !!

And only 77 in the House standing against Obama throwing away SS and Medicare!!

[JDPriestly]

186. totodeinhere, I am with you.

Obama is selling the store.

There will be nothing left for the poor and working people when he finishes.

[MissDeeds]

194. +1000

[davidwparker]

138. Right. When "democrats" run to the right, it says to people

there must be some problem with Democratic values.

[EFerrari]

185. When the party leader speaks Republican to the nation

our alternate narrative disappears.

[OwnedByFerrets]

142. Thank you

[Marnie]

143. Obama uses the Republican's talking points

like, SS is an entitlement, when it in fact is not. It is not federal tax revenue. It is a prepaid investment savings account mismanaged by the Federal Government.

Just because Obama isn't a tea bagger doesn't mean he is not a Republican. He has caved to virtually every demand they have made, and dones so with little or nothing in return.

He has allowed the deficit increase issue to be conflated uhntil it has become virtually invisible under Republican bull shit issues, and has allowed the Republicans to steer time an effort away from the most important issue of this administration - the debt ceiling.

Obama is the one who perpetrated the concept of merging the debt ceiling with other issues, it wasn't the Re publicans forcing him too.

And it looks very much like he will loose both the big deal and the deficit ceiling, at least in part because HE introduced tea bagger issues into the deficit ceiling issue.

[defendandprotect]

146. Not only is Obama showing his disdain for SS/Medicare -- he's showing his support for trickle down!!

[JDPriestly]

156. Agreed. Woo me with science.

[Vattel]

157. All true, but I am hoping

that the negotiations will all fail and Congress will just raise the debt ceiling. Then Obama will be in a weaker position when he tries to get Congressional Democrats to go along with the bad parts of what he wants Congress to pass to address the deficit.

[hulka38]

175. FDR would view Obama as the biggest threat to his legacy

if he were alive today.

[defendandprotect]

182. GOP in looking for default is treasonous ....

Obama destroying the last of the New Deal programs is yet one more betrayal by him --

Obama has from the first been ignoring the WILL OF THE PEOPLE --

On health care -- 76% and more wanted MEDICARE FOR ALL --

On wars -- 80% of the public want an end to the wars -- !!

[Name removed]

189. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

192. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[patrice]

200. Who said we have a victory? Maybe you're paying attention to the wrong sources, or . . .

perhaps you misunderstand something. Is that possible? Science asks itself that question constantly.

[freshwest]

201. Obama didn't do a goalpost dance. Nordquist's having a private, pleasurable moment now.

All the Tea Partiers are celebrating this, and their media. I'm more upset with them for pushing this than anyone else.

[Ka hrnt]

203. Obama is embodying the spineless Democrat...

A month ago I thought Obama was a lock for re-election due to the caliber (or lack thereof) of opponents he was facing. Now? Now he's going to have fight for it. And frankly, he SHOULD have to fight for it (in the primary). Being a moderate is one thing. But giving your opposition 80% of what they want isn't being moderate--it's being spineless. Just my two cents, of course.

[defendandprotect]

206. It's not about "spinlessness" ... it's about corporate money ...

Obviously Obama isn't on the side of the people -- he's a corporatist --


See Madfloridian's Hamiltonian thread -- quite a shocker re Obama comments!!

I'll see if I can go back and get a link for you --



This link takes you to Madfloridian's further comments on the thread --

but you can then back up to read the OP and other comments --


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1540315&mesg_id=1544402




:)