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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 12:47 PM
Original message
Jane Fonda: The Truth About My Trip To Hanoi
Edited on Sat Jul-23-11 01:00 PM by Hissyspit
http://janefonda.com/the-truth-about-my-trip-to-hanoi



Jane Fonda listeing to U.S. soldiers at a G.I. coffeehouse.

The Truth About My Trip To Hanoi
Jul 22.11

- snip -

For the first 8 years of the Vietnam War I lived in France. I was married to the French film director, Roger Vadim and had my first child. The French had been defeated in their own war against Vietnam a decade before our country went to war there, so when I heard, over and over, French people criticizing our country for our Vietnam War I hated it. I viewed it as sour grapes. I refused to believe we could be doing anything wrong there.

It wasn’t until I began to meet American servicemen who had been in Vietnam and had come to Paris as resisters that I realized I needed to learn more. I took every chance I could to meet with U.S. soldiers. I talked with them and read the books they gave me about the war. I decided I needed to return to my country and join with them—active duty soldiers and Vietnam Veterans in particular—to try and end the war. I drove around the country visiting military bases, spending time in the G.I. Coffee houses that had sprung up outside many bases –places where G.I.s could gather. I met with Army psychiatrists who were concerned about the type of training our men were receiving…quite different, they said, from the trainings during WWII and Korea. The doctors felt this training was having a damaging effect on the psyches of the young men, effects they might not recover from. I raised money and hired a former Green Beret, Donald Duncan, to open and run the G.I. Office in Washington D.C. to try and get legal and congressional help for soldiers who were being denied their rights under the Uniform Code of Military Justice. I talked for hours with U.S. pilots about their training, and what they were told about Vietnam. I met with the wives of servicemen. I visited V.A. hospitals. Later in 1978, wanting to share with other Americans some of what I had learned about the experiences of returning soldiers and their families, I made the movie Coming Home. I was the one who would be asked to speak at large anti-war rallies to tell people that the men in uniform were not the enemy, that they did not start the war, that they were, in growing numbers our allies. I knew as much about military law as any layperson. I knew more than most civilians about the realities on the ground for men in combat. I lived and breathed this stuff for two years before I went to North Vietnam. I cared deeply for the men and boys who had been put in harms way. I wanted to stop the killing and bring our servicemen home. I was infuriated as I learned just how much our soldiers were being lied to about why we were fighting in Vietnam and I was anguished each time I would be with a young man who was traumatized by his experiences. Some boys shook constantly and were unable to speak above a whisper.

It is unconscionable that extremist groups circulate letters which accuse me of horrific things, saying that I am a traitor, that POWs in Hanoi were tied up and in chains and marched passed me while I spat at them and called them ‘baby killers. These letters also say that when the POWs were brought into the room for a meeting I had with them, we shook hands and they passed me tiny slips of paper on which they had written their social security numbers. Supposedly, this was so that I could bring back proof to the U.S. military that they were alive. The story goes on to say that I handed these slips of paper over to the North Vietnamese guards and, as a result, at least one of the men was tortured to death. That these stories could be given credence shows how little people know of the realities in North Vietnam prisons at the time. The U.S. government and the POW families didn’t need me to tell them who the prisoners were. They had all their names. Moreover, according to even the most hardcore senior officers, torture stopped late in 1969, two and a half years before I got there. And, most importantly, I would never say such things to our servicemen, whom I respect, whether or not I agree with the mission they have been sent to perform, which is not of their choosing.

- snip -

Little known is the fact that almost 300 Americans—journalists, diplomats, peace activists, professors, religious leaders and Vietnam Veterans themselves—had been traveling to North Vietnam over a number of years in an effort to try and find ways to end the war (By the way, those trips generated little if any media attention.) I brought with me to Hanoi a thick package of letters from families of POWs. Since 1969, mail for the POWs had been brought in and out of North Vietnam every month by American visitors. The Committee of Liaison With Families coordinated this effort. I took the letters to the POWs and brought a packet of letters from them back to their families.

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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 12:53 PM
Response to Original message
1. recommend
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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. "There is one thing that happened while in North Vietnam that I will regret to my dying day..."
"There is one thing that happened while in North Vietnam that I will regret to my dying day— I allowed myself to be photographed on a Vietnamese anti-aircraft gun. I want to, once again, explain how that came about. I have talked about this numerous times on national television and in my memoirs, My Life So Far, but clearly, it needs to be repeated."
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RSillsbee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-25-11 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #4
79. I'm glad she regrets it
but some bridges you can never cross again.

Jane Fonda is a traitor to her country period
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 12:59 PM
Response to Original message
2. This is very iimportant:
"I met with Army psychiatrists who were concerned about the type of training our men were receiving…quite different, they said, from the trainings during WWII and Korea."
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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. All of it is important.
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Thanks for posting this. Jane is one of the more interesting VN War figures, and an important
object lesson in how not to allow oneself to be used for propaganda purposes - by several sides.
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. I wonder why she never thought of filing a defamation lawsuit.
Even if there was an issue with her being a public figure, she could have corrected some of the propaganda.
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #2
17. I think that is why we're
seeing such a difference with emotional/mental problems today vs. after WWII.

The military is turning young men into 'murderers' not soldiers....imho
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Exactly.
Shortcuts in leadership.
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sce56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #17
29. Who sponsors Call of Duty Games etc?
US Army Sponsors Online Video Game Network
In an attempt to reach out to their bread-and-butter demographic, the 17-24 year-old male, the US army has begun sponsoring online game tournaments. The Army has partnered with the Global Gaming League, boasting about 9 million competitive gamers on its network, to create the National Gaming Arena which will host tournaments of Army-themed games. The Army will also give prizes to the winners such as a chance to train on a real military games software. The promotion is meant to increase awareness by telling the Army's story to the next generation of potential recruits.
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #29
55. I had no idea that
they had gone to such extreme measures. OMG-WASF.

Thx for the info....had no idea.
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MrsBrady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #17
66. I'm certainly not going to diminish what Vietnam and more recent veterans
have had to deal with. It's horrible and heartbreaking.

Many, many men suffered after WW2, they just did it in silence.
My grandfather rarely spoke of his experience, but the few stories I know, were told to me only as an older teen and adult.
Because they were harrowing.
My grandmother said my grandfather was a different man after he got back.

He had been in heavy, dangerous fighting in Alaska in the Aleutian Islands and the battle of Attu.
There are many stories from my childhood about people not knowing to NOT to prank my grandfather, scaring him...
and then the rest of the story was never told. I was only left to immagine.

Looking back he was very, very angry and also depressed. I never heard the man belly laugh. Ever.
He was a marvelous man in many ways and had some good parts about him, but he had lasting effects from his time in Alaska.

My grandparents had several small pieces of furniture that he had made in some kind of woodworking veterans therapy group.
Although that's not what it was called at the time.
Woodworking? Yes.
That's what they were given to do to deal with readjustment. It's heartbreaking.
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #66
73. Yes, I've heard of many
vets from WW2 who suffered terribly. I am going to google the battle of Attu and learn about this.

People with good hearts and souls simply shouldn't have to go to war...it's for those who can cope with death and murder...and is that what a human being wants?

Our culture is so screwed up....that we honor killing and want to force birthing. I hope the Mayans and Hopis are correct....that soon this current paradigm of competition and machoism will end and a paradigm of cooperation will reign.

War is a racket. I am sorry your family had to endure its effects. You're right...it's heartbreaking.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #2
50. .. and that was Vietnam ... Imagine where we are now -- !!!
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 01:01 PM
Response to Original message
3. Jane has paid the price for her little act of stupidity. Kissinger, not nearly enough:
April 25th 1972

Nixon: “We’ve got to be thinking in terms of an all-out bombing attack
Kissinger: "I agree with you."

President Nixon: "And I still think we ought to take the dikes out now. Will that drown people?"

Kissinger: "About two hundred thousand people."

President Nixon: "No, no, no…I'd rather use the nuclear bomb. Have you got that, Henry?

Kissinger: "That, I think, would just be too much."

President Nixon: "The nuclear bomb, does that bother you?…I just want to think big, Henry, for Christsakes."
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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. I don't even think it's fair to call it "little act of stupidity"
Read the whole description she gives. Naivete or getting suckered with your guard down is more accurate.
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. I read it. She describes it as a lapse in judgement due to fatique and poor advisors.
Edited on Sat Jul-23-11 01:08 PM by leveymg
That's very reminiscent of other Vietnam War recollections, isn't it?

But, it was a little lapse, by comparison.

No one got out alive from that war.
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demosincebirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #8
22. Lapse of judgement? That's an understatement..
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Bandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #8
62. Evferybody has a lapse in judgement once in a while, What is important though
is the ulterior motives. Hers seems to be, to save American soldier's lives. She wanted the war to end, not because of politics, but because Americans were dying. Her intentions were nothing but nobel, certainly not treasonous..
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #6
51. Agree .. .read here book a long time ago -- :"guard down is more accurate" -- !!
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Scuba Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 01:18 PM
Response to Original message
10. This Viet Vet never had a problem with Jane's efforts on our behalf. n/t
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ChiciB1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 01:22 PM
Response to Original message
11. You Know, After All These Years & My Memory Of the Time Way Back Then...
I recall when Jane Fonda came to Ft. Hood, TX and was greeted by the men of the 1st & 2nd AD with open arms. While I don't recall the exact time because I was still in high school there were many who marched with her against the war.

There was a place that the young soldiers set up in the town of Killeen, TX called the Oleo Strut, where they would meet as resisters against the war. I haven't thought about it in a long time and I never went there, but I KNOW it existed and there many civilians in town who hated them for it.

THAT town would never have existed and flourished has it not been for those military men, but so many civilians treated them like dirt. I was an army brat and remember being so very mad at my fellow classmates "barking" at the soldiers when they came into town. At first I didn't know WHY they barked until someone finally told me. It was because they wore DOG TAGS!

Times were so different back then, and at that time Jane Fonda WAS NOT a traitor or a person who became so hated. I have NEVER felt about her as so many others have over the years, but then maybe you had to be there. And I DON'T recall one of my friends who served in Viet Nam EVER telling me they were spat on when they came back. Maybe some had it happen to them, but WHY would they do it? Most men were drafted and so many left the country NOT to be drafted. I actually married my husband to keep him from getting drafted. They called him to take a physical, so we got married. I wasn't ready, nor did I plan to marry him when I was that young, but somehow we're still together today!

Just thought I would add my comments as one who knew "something" about what happened back then.
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. +1000
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roamer65 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 01:31 PM
Response to Original message
12. I'm fonda Hanoi Jane.
Edited on Sat Jul-23-11 01:33 PM by roamer65
I tell that one to rightards and it really rankles their asses.

Nixon prolonged that goddamn war by 4 years and hundreds of thousands died because of him.

Nixon was a criminal.
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tishaLA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
13. k&r
I have always had a profound respect for Ms Fonda. She is a wise woman and one of the few celebrities whose opinions strike me as thoughtful. When she talked about her conversion to Christianity, she spoke in ways that made me understand what she sees in religion that I don't because of years of calluses created by the religious right. And her work for the girls of Atlanta has simply been amazing.
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Safetykitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
14. "The truth"....now. The republicans should sign her up, history revisionism squad.
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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #14
25. If you read the article, you would realize that she has told this truth many times
both in print and verbally. And yet, the smears persist. Jane Fonda went from a "sex kitten" to a force to reckoned with within the anti-war movement. It was an amazing personal tranformation and her advocacy meant a lot to many a lot of people. Anti-war vets loved her. I know. I lived through it.
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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
16. mark for later read
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
19. Deleted message
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 02:45 PM
Response to Original message
20. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
MrMickeysMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #20
43. It's a wash.... I'm reccing her
I already understood this.

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OutNow Donating Member (538 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 03:04 PM
Response to Original message
21. Operation Rapid American Withdrawal
I participated in Operation Rapid American Withdrawal along with Jane Fonda at Valley Forge Pennsylvania. Fonda was very comfortable with the vets and, along with Donald Sutherland and other well known people, walked many miles with us and shared the food that supporters provided. It was very clear to me that she was no traitor, or no more of a traitor than I was since the right wingers at the time labeled all of us anti-war vets with the same smear.

The local American Legion had declared that they were out to capture Fonda and disrupt our gathering. When they showed up, about 30 Korea or WW II age vets, we went out to meet them at the crest of a hill. We expected a hostile atmosphere but ended up having a civil exchange. Perhaps it was the fact that most us younger vets had worn the medals and ribbons we had earned on our rag tag uniforms. There were several Silver Stars and many Purple Hearts among us. The Legion guys left after a while and we went back to camp.

It's always easy to demonize a person when it's done in the abstract. Not so easy when it's face-to-face.

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AnotherDreamWeaver Donating Member (917 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-25-11 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #21
77. Thank you for the blessing,
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MisterP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 03:10 PM
Response to Original message
23. Marlene Dietrich did way worse, supporting The Enemy against her own country
as the former conducted incessant air raids...
but both actresses were right to go where they did, because their nation was the aggressor nation
believing that one's greatest duty is to one's national Leaders is fascist morality
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Muskypundit Donating Member (417 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #23
40. Bull fucking shit. Their shenanigans led to the deaths of g.i's
Many of whom were drafted and wanted no part of the war. They should have stayed at the home front and protested against who were the real aggressors, the u.s government. That's way different than going to the country that is killing u.s troops and supporting them.
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SteveM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 03:57 PM
Response to Original message
24. For someone so visually oriented, Her AA posing was pretty bad...
I remember seeing that in my anti-war days and cringed. The expression "Hanoi Jane" was attached to her immediately, and widely-circulated and popularized by one Rick Perry in his early political campaigns. That said, I remember meeting her at Scholz' Garten in Austin, Texas ('73? '74?) where she was feted by the late Larry Bales (D), the only member of the Texas legislature who voted against a resolution condemning Fonda. The FBI was across the street with their infrareds, recording everyone entering the political hangout. Nice person, and great actor, but I wish she had shown better judgment about mass media and their consequences than someone like Perry.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 04:41 PM
Response to Original message
26. I was in Vietnam from Sept '67 to April '69...
And I do not remember ever thinking negatively of Jane's trip. I knew her heart was in the right place and that most of the stuff said about her was crap.
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era veteran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 04:50 PM
Response to Original message
27. The war was fucked up
The politicians were fucked up
The WW2 generation thought we were fucked up ( a lot of them, my Father included, came around)
The media was fucked up ( but they could film everything & thank God for Walter)
The secretary of Defense was really fucked up
The world, as always, a bit fucked up
The lying son of a bitch Generals were fucked up
Lots of my friends were fucked up or dead
I was fucked up

The music was really good though.


The Cowboy dies today
Prime Minister Air Marshal Nguyễn Cao Kỳ died on early Saturday 23 July 2011 at a hospital in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, where he was receiving treatment for "respiratory complications."
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garthranzz Donating Member (983 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #27
46. You have my respect and gratitude
My lottery number was high, so I wasn't drafted. I was an active protester but always demanded that the soldiers be honored and respected. I felt we were on the same side.
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bobhuntsman Donating Member (54 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #27
65. now, THERE's a bit of good news. . .
the depth of my hatred for Ky is immeasurable.

I hope he suffered!!
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Yon_Yonson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #65
69. Amen
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 05:24 PM
Response to Original message
28. I studied a year in France in the 1960s.
I don't think we would have become so involved there in the way we did had we observed the Vietnamese nationals living in France.

In my experience, there were two groups: 1) the communists -- in my experience they were a vicious bunch busily courting American students. I looked younger than my age, so they tried to persuade me to support their point of view, but I was quite familiar with the euphemistic lingo that hid their very violent agenda. On the other hand, they were very aggressive and very sure of themselves in their arguments.
2) the anti-communists. One example was a Vietnamese priest. He invited me to his room for tea and was very courteous and kind. I really liked him. He proudly showed me a book of Vietnamese folk stories. On the front page, in English, it stated (and I have forgotten the exact words), Made in the Republic (I think that was the word) of North Vietnam. My friend, the Vietnamese Priest could not read those words. But it was at that instance, early in the course of the war, that I knew what the out come would be for us.

The North owned the culture. They were speaking to the people -- strangely enough through the very traditions that North Vietnam secretly as revealed by the discussions of those who supported that side, wanted to destroy.

I did not protest the war. I sympathized with the Vietnamese people who were fighting the Communists. But I did not support the war either, because I knew that the Communists were intent on revenge and would get it.

I knew based on my conversation with the priest who would win. And I found it very sad. I still find it sad, but I hope that things will improve for the Vietnamese people. I feel a very special link to them.

At the time, there was absolutely nothing I could do.

But -- we on DU need to remember: the side that dominates the culture wins. That is why the right prevails over reason. They dominate our culture. And that is why I do not subscribe to a newspaper or cable TV.

I get my information only from sites I trust on the internet.

Controlling people through culture is insidious but very effective.
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destes Donating Member (246 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 05:25 AM
Response to Reply #28
59. would that the truth of your words were shouted from the highest hills
Perhaps America has been here-to-fore less prone to radical conversion due to the fact that it's historical "culture" was so violently curbed in our civil war. Similarly remarkable is the fact that the "cultural" vehicle for our current "right's prevalence over reason" problem springs from the remnants of that defeated culture.
Simply put, the same evil and stupid that was the "confederacy" is today the standard for our drive into anecdotalitarianism. From simple minded religio-political equivocation, math-deficient economic policy and ethnocentric denial of global realities, the "old south" does indeed prevail.
Perhaps another civil war will reset the balance. The best outcome would, of course, require that the south lose again. Alas, media has transformed the battlefield, challenges for all men of good will. Most are not prepared to sacrifice knowing that their sacrifice will be recognized only through the distorted lens of propaganda.
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DeSwiss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 07:26 PM
Response to Original message
30. K&R n/t
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 07:27 PM
Response to Original message
31. It's a shame she has to keep doing this
IMHO She did NOTHING wrong

Now her attackers...different story
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #31
52. +1000 --
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Smarmie Doofus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 07:50 AM
Response to Reply #31
60. Exactly how I feel. nt
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azul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 07:45 PM
Response to Original message
32. Well bless my soul
Dixie Chix? Who would dare speak-up next?

MIC realizes the propaganda home front is critical. An emotional high ground not to be lost.
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Blue_In_AK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 07:55 PM
Response to Original message
33. I have a lot of respect for Jane.
She has consistently maintained her antiwar stance for decades. Here she is in DC January 2007.

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Faygo Kid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 08:09 PM
Response to Original message
34. I'm old enough to remember. She got a bad rap.
I opposed the war, too. Lucky enough with my lottery number not to go.
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Historic NY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 08:14 PM
Response to Original message
35. At least she had the stones to go there rather than hide out in some champaign Air Guard base.
Edited on Sat Jul-23-11 08:40 PM by Historic NY
Was the guy supposedly making all those claims CIA??...http://www.pownetwork.org/bios/b/b600.htm

he claims he worked for the forerunner of the Peace Corps.But the Peace Corps was already established in 1961 and it was passed by Congress in Sept. 1961.

I served with the International Volunteer Services (the forerunner of the Peace Corps), in
Vietnam from 1963 to 1965, as an advisor in education and agriculture. I
joined the Agency for International Development (AID).

Interesting since he was actually a civilian that applied to work for the CIA. I do agree there are many inconsistencies but he formed the basis for concocting the blame.
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Yon_Yonson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 09:13 PM
Response to Original message
36. This Vietnam Vet does not have a problem with Jane Fonda ... never have!
I have never had a problem with Jane Fonda’s trip to North Vietnam and I have the utmost respect for her. I do have problems with war criminals like Kissinger and the other war mongers in DC that made the War in Vietnam possible. If I got judged on my youthful lack of discretion ... well enough said on that one.
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Bigmack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #36
71. The mods deleted a sub thread including my post...
I'm a Vietnam Vet, and I've never had a problem with Jane. The rightwing chickenhawks hate her because she was right, just like they hate Walter Kronkite for being right.

I find that the brave veterans sitting and drinking at the VFW hate Jane, but if you talk to them, you find they were supply pogues or office weenies, and they believe all the RW viral emails about Fonda, rather than checking for themselves.

Why is it that these assholes blame everybody for the "loss" of Vietnam on people like Fonda, but never talk about the blame that should be heaped on those who put the US there and kept us there?
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Yon_Yonson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #71
76. Ah the bar warriors down at the VFW and the American Legion
Never did get involved with that crowd! Those are the same warriors that still have a need to dress up in their to small uniforms, march in parades and tell war stories. Ever noticed that when you meet one they are always Green Berets, Black Operations, FORCE RECON, Seals, Special Warfare, etc. Their mission was so secret that they can't tell you because if they did they would have to kill you if they did.

Vietnam was doomed to failure because we were the occupying forces and you can't bring peace at the end of gun. It's all about the military industrial complex, oil companies, corporate amerika and their political whores getting rich of the back of the common folk.

Jane Fonda did good and I hope she stick to that good work.
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The Wizard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 09:34 PM
Response to Original message
37. Jane makes a convenient scapegoat
Edited on Sat Jul-23-11 09:36 PM by The Wizard
for those who believe she was the reason the United States didn't plant an American flag on the Hanoi Courthouse steps. Fact is, it was a no win situation, in the traditional sense. We were on the wrong side of History and morality. How does this sound? Ho Chi Minh was a ruthless dictator who enslaved his people. The United States was there to make the Vietnamese free and spread democracy.
We were there because we believed there was more oil under the Tonkin Gulf than under Saudi sand. Remember what happened when we pulled out our combat troops in 73, the oil shortage.
The real traitors, and they still are, the scumbags who profiteer on the blood, sweat, tears and toil of the combat soldier.
Democracy is never imposed at gunpoint, occupation is.
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grahamhgreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 09:37 PM
Response to Original message
38. Iraqistan-libya, is Obamas Vietnam.
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UTUSN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 09:50 PM
Response to Original message
39. Her trip was in '72. I was in VN '67-68 & walked out of a movie of hers back then
Edited on Sat Jul-23-11 09:52 PM by UTUSN
Barefoot in the Park, where she was a screeching obnoxious character. We were IN Vietnam, in the river. Her incident hadn't happened. I walked out because of the sucky movie and her character in it.

By the time her incident happened I wasn't paying attention to whatever she did because I had shelved her many contradictory career activities as being starlet junk.

Decades later, when she kept popping up in different venues and with different, er, *callings" (fitness guru) and with different old husbands, I digested her and came up with this conclusion:


She started as a Hollywood brat, then became a starlet and sex kitten, then started the trophy wife thing for herself, then an activist which I interpreted as coverting to whatever latest boyfriend's own mission was, then somehow a serious actress, then fitness guru/mogul, then more trophy wife... And through it all, the rebelliousness, was her craving for her cold father's attention and approval.

So, while she has come to have acceptance as a Lib activist, I see her mostly as a perpetually lost soul searching for an identity. Just being on the agreeing side of my politics doesn't sway me that much, even if her celebrity status has allowed her to accomplish a zillion times more for my politics than I can ever do.
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FourScore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. Oh geez. As a woman I find this post offensive.
I'll just leave it at that.
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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #39
45. Oh, good god.
"Barefoot In The Park" is a Neil Simon work. Of corse the characters were screeching and obnoxious.
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UTUSN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #45
47. Thank you. &, so, you see, it wasn't personal. & I don't particularly
Edited on Sat Jul-23-11 10:40 PM by UTUSN
dislike her and certainly don't doubt her sincerity in her post in the o.p.'s link. As I said, her many incarnations are quicksilver to me and therefore not a hook to hang my hat on.



On Edit: Oh, and I left out Xian fundie in the list of her incarnations.
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Yon_Yonson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 09:00 AM
Response to Reply #39
61. lost soul searching for an identity
Edited on Sun Jul-24-11 09:19 AM by Yon_Yonson
It's been 43 years for me and I'm still having evils with my 'lost soul and identify'! A word to Jane Fonda ... you did good and keep up your good work.
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FourScore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #61
63. Well said! n/t
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FourScore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 10:15 PM
Response to Original message
42. k/r
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MrMickeysMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 10:30 PM
Response to Original message
44. It's about time...
I understood long before this explanation, which is lost on some here.
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 10:46 PM
Response to Original message
48. This Vietnam vet was thrilled that Jane would try to help end the war. I never even
gave it a thought because I was so busy trying to get the damned war stopped too. I had no idea that she had been misrepresented so badly although I knew the hard-core 'Vietnam-was-a-necessary-war' types hated her guts.

Thank you for posting this, Hissyspit.

Recommend highly
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 11:05 PM
Response to Original message
49. Fucking piece of shit Nixon sold out the US for his little piecemeal gain
Like the only truth i know is that these political animals will sell their soul for any advantage. It's a good reflection on where we are today, they are just traitors and know they will never pay for it and that includes history books.

It feels better just to :puke: than to think about it
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 11:17 PM
Response to Original message
53. Thanks, Hissy -- Read Jane's book a while back -- but the press she's had is shocking --!!
Edited on Sat Jul-23-11 11:18 PM by defendandprotect
Reminds me of the job Nixon did on Helen Gahagan Douglas -- !!

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Gabi Hayes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #53
70. you mean her autobio? pretty compelling stuff, ESPECIALLY the section
Edited on Sun Jul-24-11 11:50 AM by Gabi Hayes
where she describes going to military bases/coffee houses on said bases, etc., and meeting with THOUSANDS of soldiers who totally supported what she was doing, which was trying to keep them alive by getting us out of vietnam

she was made a scapegoat because of her actions back then, just like another figure made infamous by a similar media witch hunt, which came back to cost him the presidency in 2004
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #70
74. Interesting comment ...
re Nader -- and it was the Democratic Party which did the scapegoating.

And it was the Democratic Party which was infiltrating and co-opting the Green Party.


:hi:

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Major Hogwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 11:18 PM
Response to Original message
54. This is a great article because Jane swayed many oldtimers to change their minds about that war.
There were several discussions about why that war should end sooner than it did.
But, when Jane went to Vietnam, the war was winding down and her trip helped many of the WWII vets and Korean War vets reconsider the idea of staying there much longer since we weren't accomplishing a damned thing.

It's usually only assholes like Sean Hannity, who never served a day in the military, that bring up Jane's involvement in the peace movement these days anyway.

I'm proud of what Jane did because she did more than just talk about peace, she did something to bring it about!!
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Boudica the Lyoness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 12:05 AM
Response to Original message
56. We need more people like Jane
...and what a better world it would be.
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #56
68. Spoiled Hollywood brats? Don't think so. nt
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lib2DaBone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 04:13 AM
Response to Original message
57. Jane had the balls to stand up against the right-wing merchants of death....
And for this she has been a target of the Repuke hatred for all these years?

Just think where we are today with 6 wars underway... spending $10 Billion a month in Afghanistan while we make our Senior Citizens eat cat food.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #57
75. True -- the attacks are always directed at those who are anti-war.... WAR is profitable ....
and behind war a lot can be taken away from the people -- !!

Their freedom, for one!!

Those who support this MIC and its weaponry and even torture may awake

one day to find that it is all being used against them --



:hi:
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B Calm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 05:06 AM
Response to Original message
58. Even way back then I despised the media, and knew the truth of what she was doing.
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ooglymoogly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 09:55 AM
Response to Original message
64. I've always loved Jane...and she did not fall far from the tree,
Edited on Sun Jul-24-11 09:57 AM by ooglymoogly
grapes of wrath and all that. And this is just more documentation of just how lethal the big boys that pulled the strings then and the same big boys children falling rotten true, now pulling the same strings, continue on that same path of greed and destruction.
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AikidoSoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 11:10 AM
Response to Original message
67. Jand Fonda has had a positive impact on my community. She has raised funds for a community
organization that helps individuals elevate themselves emotionally and intellectually.

I always thought she was given a bad rap.`

She should be celebrated as a good person with excellent intentions, willing to take great risks for speaking out.


:toast:
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mother earth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
72. I have always appreciated Jane Fonda, and always knew there
was far more to "HERstory"...you never hear the real truth, esp. when war powers are involved. We are still fighting those same powers that be, and it always comes down to profits over people. When gov'ts finally value their people we may actually get some semblance of social justice.

Thank you for bringing this to us, Hissyspit. I always look forward to your topics.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-25-11 12:55 AM
Response to Original message
78. The offensive obscenity was the war itself.
How come no one is forcing Henry Kissinger to explain himself over and over again?


We never should have been there in the first place.
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