The man was laughing as he shot children.

[Swede]

snip

Nicoline Bjerge Schie, 21, thought somebody was setting off fireworks when she first heard the gunfire. But then she saw people "screaming and running for their lives with their heads down".

With 10 other young men and women Miss Schie ran to hide near the beach. As they cowered behind a rock the gunshots whistled over their heads.

"I could not see the gunman but I heard him screaming and laughing and he gave several cheers," she told The Sunday Telegraph.

She watched, horrified and helpless, as some of her friends were hit by the gunman's bullets, at least five of them toppling off the rock into the lake.




http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/norway/8657110/Norway-killings-suspect-beckoned-young-campers-to-him-before-shooting-them-dead.html

[Ruby the Liberal]

1. That is a horrifying mental image.

My heart is just breaking for these kids who had to witness that carnage.

[mhatrw]

2. The supposed manifesto of the alleged lone perpetrator can be found here.

http://www.2shared.com/file/M-s-2fBD/2083-AEuropeanDeclarationofInd.html

[aquart]

3. Well, that's a self-justification I have no interest in.

[Adsos Letter]

4. I have no interest in accepting whatever excuses he offers

I am, as a semi-historian, interested in his perceptions of reality; however, I don't know that I have the energy required to wade through this one.

[aquart]

25. They don't change.

Names and events may differ, but hate is always the same and always sounds the same. It is always a heroic, noble, self-sacrificing motive for the good of all good people. Mass murder of this kind is never about hate, oh no. It is about love, and concern, and fear for the future if no one lifts a finger to act.

And I don't give a damn. You pull that trigger, you rot.

[Adsos Letter]

28. "It is always a heroic, noble, self-sacrificing motive for the good of all good people."

And that may well be true in the perpetrator's mind but historians, perhaps not now but certainly in the future, will interest themselves in the particulars in a search for causation more refined than simply acknowledging the insane hatred behind the act.

[aquart]

44. Go look. But you won't find it.

And I don't know about the "insane hatred" part. That conjures up something utterly different than I see. Are you filled with insane hatred when you swat a fly? Do any of us hate flies when we swat them? Crush them? Tear the wings off?

"Insane hatred" is a very comforting thought for the rest of us because WE don't feel that way. Get the swatter, will you, Adsos? The flies are landing on the pie.

[Adsos Letter]

51. Alright; call it simple hatred, then.

I still believe Historians will want to try to understand why this mass-murderer took the path he did. Look at the amount of ink spilled trying to understand Hitler's motivations, to use the most notorious (and far-reaching) example I can think of at the moment.

You're right about one thing: his hatred is insane to me because I don't believe the way he does. I'm quite sure his actions are completely sane according to his own thinking. That's the main reason Historians would be interested in this; to locate his thinking within a larger matrix of violence related to extremist ideology, to understand why he viewed his actions as sane.

I'm not generally "filled with insane hatred" when I swat a fly. My fly swatting is absolutely rational to me.

In fact, I've never even thought of tearing their wings off; different things amuse us, apparently.

edit: added "In fact" to last sentence.

[aquart]

54. I do not torture insects.

You are looking for a unique feature. But this is a completely predictable pathology. There's no specialness here. And I truly doubt any of his words have much relevance. Mass murderers are dull. Hitler was dull. People were impressed by the sheer magnitude and kept looking for something special, but beyond his ability to give a really rousing speech...eh. We have the profile now. Criminologists will go over this ass' life in great detail to see if the profile needs tweaking but I doubt it.

For a while I was enthralled by serial killers but now...bleh.

These killers go for special and end up ordinary in their class.

The historian in me is so much more interested in the survivor testimony. Those accounts, to me, are striking gold.

[Adsos Letter]

56. "The historian in me is so much more interested in the survivor testimony."

Then you would probably be interested in the work of Alessandro Portelli, whose The Death of Luigi Trastuli examined meaning, subjectivity and fact in oral history. This is assuming you haven't already read his stuff.

What I'm interested in is the combination of ideologies this guy held; I suppose that's about as far as uniqueness can hope to go, and it really only reflects my interest in the bigger picture of us vs. them ideas motivating people to violence (or holding a significant potential to).

Hitler said some things in Mein Kampf that, in retrospect, certainly provide some insight into his later actions. How much validity there is in any of the psychohistorians interpretations simply comes down to what a person is willing or able to believe, I suppose. I'm not a big believer in psychohistory, so there's that.

Back to words and actual motivation: one historian I've read (too lazy at the moment to get up to the bookcases to remind myself of exactly who) speculated that, despite all his openly expressed motivations, Hitler actually acted simply because he could. Almost makes it more horrific, if such a thing were possible. Apparently this guy stated "one action is worth 100,000 statements" or something like that. Maybe he did it expecting it to function as some kind of Propaganda of the Deed, maybe he did it simply because he could. In the case of either of these individuals personal stuff a certain amount of it will always be a guessing game.

If I wade through any of this guys writings it will be to find some of the combinations of ideas that motivated him. Beyond the admittedly academic interest, it reminds me to examine my own beliefs.

Hope yer weather cools down.

Edit: changed "this" to "these." ...not that it makes any of it any clearer...

[aquart]

59. Don't know him,but if it's WWII, I can't read that anymore.

I was able to happily dissect a frog in 7th grade and look at the pictures of WWII and read about it. But I can't do any of those things now.

[Adsos Letter]

63. It's not anything like the WWII stuff, which I also don't read anymore.

Here; I'll give you the product description from SUNY Press:

"Portelli offers a new and challenging approach to oral history, with an interdisciplinary and multicultural perspective. Examining cultural conflict and communication between social groups and classes in industrial societies, he identifies the way individuals strive to create memories in order to make sense of their lives, and evaluates the impact of the fieldwork experience on the consciousness of the researcher. By recovering the value of the story-telling experience, Portelli's work makes delightful reading for the specialist and non-specialist alike."

Me again:
I thoroughly enjoyed this work (some essays more than others). One fascinating aspect is his treatment of how people remember events, as expressed in the stories they tell oral historians. In the essay I enjoyed most, The Death of Luigi Trastulli, Portelli looks at the death of a labor organizer in Italy through the memories of witnesses several years after the fact.

Over the course of conducting his interviews he realized that the truly interesting thing was how differing memories of the same event revealed more about what they thought about the meaning of the event than any accuracy in the particulars.

You might find it worth your time. I know I certainly did. Hope yer weather cools some.

[Blue_Tires]

69. Sort of reminiscent of the the Virginia Tech shooter's bitter screeds

although it wasn't political, it was just as hateful and rage-fueled...

[mhatrw]

5. I did not provide the link to justify the unjustifiable.

I provided it to offer insight into the anti-Muslim mindset of the guy who supposedly committed these atrocities.

[pampango]

7. 1,519 pages long! He certainly put a lot of time and effort into this crock.

The table of contents:

1. The rise of cultural Marxism/multiculturalism in Western Europe

2. Why the Islamic colonization and Islamisation of Western Europe began

3. The current state of the Western European Resistance Movements (anti-Marxist/anti-Jihad movements)

4. Solutions for Western Europe and how we, the resistance, should move forward in the coming decades

5. + Covering all, highly relevant topics including solutions and strategies for all of the 8 different political fronts

He apparently conflates multiculturalism with cultural Marxism. And he is certainly incredibly focused on Muslim immigration to Europe. 1,519 pages worth!

[mhatrw]

10. It is mostly crap he robbed form Little Green Footballs and the like.

[Amonester]

46. It's more 1,519 pages...

worthless to me.

It's full of self-aggrandizement tripe that never leads anywhere else than where it leads: nowhere, except a "get-out-of-jail-for-free-immediate" suicide or a "go-to-jail-for-life-for-free" after destroying countless peoples lives forever.

The more "worthiness" anyone gives to their shite, the more tragedies like this (other) one will happen.

[Odin2005]

53. That is typical boilerplate for the Right in Europe.

[WingDinger]

19. No offense, but right wingers said that about 9/11 terrists. They hate our freedoms, PERIOD.

[aquart]

23. Flash: I wasn't interested in their motives either.

But thank you for misquoting me. It takes a really fine grasp to go from "not interested" to insisting I already know "they hate our freedoms." Are you 12?

If you are deeply interested in why someone chooses to mass murder, be sure to read every word of that manifesto. And the next. And the next. Because there will always be another one. And they will always sound exactly alike. Hate is identical. The name of the hated object might alter, but hate never does. Nor does the mindset that propels such a crime.

You need to find out for yourself? Go to. I've already done my homework.

[Maru Kitteh]

6. Odd that this one was taken alive. Most spree killers save the last bullet for themselves.

I guess it will present an opportunity to learn.

That's just an unbelievable, freakish amount of hate. I really can't wrap my head around it.

[sudopod]

11. It's clear that he wants to be some sort of diabolic anti-Mandela.

Else, why write an encyclopedia of asshatery and allow himself to be captured?

He intends to rule that country some day.

[Maru Kitteh]

15. Encyclopedia of ass-hate-ry. That's perfect.

And I suspect you are exactly correct about his intentions. He sees himself as some kind of neo-Hitler.

[sudopod]

17. Thank Zeus that Norway is made of awesome.

Their PM responded in exactly the right way, didn't he?

[John1956PA]

13. The April 2009 shooter who killed three Pittsburgh police officers also chickened out.

In the hospital after his standoff with police, the perpetrator stated that, after he was injured by a police sniper, he rallied himself with thoughts of having visitors in prison and writing a book. He also said that he initially thought that he would kill himself to end the standoff. buy he did not have the ----s to do so. Motivations for his actions included propaganda which he had read on the Stormfront website and propaganda regarding the supposed establishment of a "New World Order." He was also concerned that President Obama's policies might lead to the confiscation of his firearms. At one point during the defense portion of his trial, he started to address the court and said that he wished to apologize; however, his attorneys stopped him. At the conclusion of his trial, he was found guilty of three counts of first degree homicide and sentenced to death.

[MadMaddie]

14. They are cowards

Notice they only go after unarmed or defensless groups of people. They don't go after someone that will fight back and possibly kill them.

[uppityperson]

21. +++++++

[malaise]

32. You're so right

One more coward seeking fame

[MH1]

29. I read in a news article that the max he can get is 21 years.

sorry I didn't save the link. But if that is true it could explain why he didn't kill himself rather than be captured. He will get out of jail with some life left. That is if he is well guarded for those 21 years.

I'm anti death penalty and generally for mitigating punishment where it makes sense. But I don't think minimizing punishment makes sense in this case, and if the 21 years is true, it seems to little for all those lives.

[Search and Destroy]

47. 21 years and then he goes before a board every 5 years

like a parole board in America. He will be in prison for the rest of his life.

[Amonester]

48. Should be 21 years for each victim.

For a total of x hundred years, IMO.

Norway should think about it.

Sooner than later.

IMO.

[JackintheGreen]

8. Children? Since when is a 21 y.o. a child?

The camp was for 15 to 25 years olds. Very few of the victims were 'children' in any widely accepted parlance.

I do not mean to diminish the horror of what this psychopath did, but this is simply using purposefully inflammatory language.

[Maru Kitteh]

16. What part of 15-25 escaped you? The OP did not say "only" children, but you go ahead and pick nits.

Children did die.



ETA: Anytime one reads "I don't mean to (X)..... but" it is generally safe to surmise that X is exactly the intent.

[JackintheGreen]

30. I didn't say "I don't mean to...but"

You did. I just pointed out that the OP title used selective language in a manipulative way. Kind of like Fox. The Telegraph article linked didn't use such an inflammatory headline. I don't need to be manipulated to find this crime horrific. And it is not horrific because children were killed. It manages to be horrific all on its own merits, thank you very much.

[JAnthony]

38. Don't quit your day job, your skill at nit-picking isn't going to

pay off here. You look more stupid and insensitive than as intellectually BRILLIANT as you want to appear.

If you lost a "child" at 21 years old, you would know what it feels to lose a child, even though, technically and in every aspect, the "child" is a legal adult. So what? Someone's child is dead!

[JackintheGreen]

42. You can impute whatever intent to me you wish

but it doesn't make it so.

[JAnthony]

43. I found the perfect solution for your posts.

IGNORE from now on.

I hope you never lose a child who is 20-25 years old!

That's my "blessing" for you.

[JackintheGreen]

45. And so generous, too, bless your heart.

You win, and I am humbled.

[JAnthony]

64. You're not at all humbled, your an arrogant over privileged American who has

never experienced real heartache in your life. You feel you have a right to nit pick and make yourself look oh so brilliant to your peers, (who really don't like you at all, given how they can see right through your arrogance and overblown sense of intellectual superiority).

You don't deserve the democracy you live in, because your egomania and arrogance and selfishness and desire to look like such a brilliant poster on an anonymous message board gives you all the thrill you cannot get in human sexual acts, because you are simply too fucking ugly and self-serving a human being to ever be physically loved.

If, somehow all your children die before you do. Would THAT make you think twice about posting foolish comments on this message board?

I doubt it.

You arrogant prick. Humble is a pie you are yet to eat a piece of.

Nit pick all you want, children died, and you just want to look somehow worthy of having your posts read?

Geeze, talk about the self serving nature of Americans! Young people are dead, and YOU want to score points with the posters here, while ignoring the grief of families of victims?

[JackintheGreen]

68. So much for "ignore," huh?

[uppityperson]

65. True, you said "I do not mean to....but" not "I don't mean to", quote and link here...

"I do not mean to diminish the horror of what this psychopath did, but"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1558615&mesg_id=1559050

If you are going to nitpick, at least look at yourself.

[JackintheGreen]

67. Gods...actually, that's embarassing.

You got me, I admit it. I wasn't paying attention to what I wrote.

I'm not changing my opinion on this matter: it's horrible no matter if is was children, teens, or young adults. But you caught me out. I won't send you a ribbon, but I will try to be careful in the future. :blush:

[sudopod]

18. Pedantic post of the year award.

It's yours.

[JackintheGreen]

27. Hooray, I won an award! n/t

[aquart]

24. Since when is a 15 year old an adult?

And "diminish the horror" is exactly what you are attempting.

[JackintheGreen]

26. And killing children is somehow MORE horrible?

Plenty of adults were just murdered. Young adults, old adults...funny, but to me it doesn't matter what their age was. They were all still murdered. And yet here comes an OP that selectively chooses words to heighten the outrage. Seems like something FOX news would do.

I do not need to know the age of someone to find their murder horrific.

[Swede]

31. Killing children is more horrible.

What the fuck is wrong with you?

[JackintheGreen]

33. Glad to know there's a sliding scale of moral outrage

that's sure going to make my professional life easier.

[Swede]

34. No,really,what the fuck is wrong with you?

[Maru Kitteh]

57. + a fucking thousand. nt

[trumad]

61. How can you shit in a thread like this?

Amazing.

[uppityperson]

66. "professional" of what sort?

[Kievan Rus]

49. Murder is equally repugnant and evil no matter what the victim's age is

[aquart]

55. YES. And I am shocked that you don't understand that.

[PSzymeczek]

37. NBC said 12-19 year olds. n/t

[JackintheGreen]

41. I was going by the article linked in the OP n/t

[Proles]

9. And this is why...

I support the death penalty. Honestly there's some people who simply don't deserve to breath the same air.

[cwydro]

12. No death penalty over there. nt

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

39. And certainly Norway won't implode because of that. -nt

[Proles]

70. Of course.

Obviously Norway doesn't have the death penalty. America is rather unusual in that it seems to be one of the few (perhaps only?) first world country to have the death penalty.

Norway doesn't seem to even serve life sentences, though I'm sure they'll make an exception for this guy.

Now, that's not to say I approve of America's death penalty system. It's rather inconsistent. What sense of justice is there if in one state you get life for murdering tons of people, and in another you get death for a less serious crime?

And of course Norway would survive quite fine without a death penalty. I don't believe a death penalty reduces the chance of a crime happening, I just believe in cases where an individual is clearly guilty of a terrible crime, killing them brings closure to everyone. There's not much they can contribute to society, so there's no point in letting them live.

[Maru Kitteh]

20. It's BREATHE, ok? You take a single breath. You breathe in and out.

Sorry. Pet peeve. Carry on.

[JackintheGreen]

35. So your pet peeve is acceptable,

but mine goes a bridge too far? Ok. :eyes:

[Maru Kitteh]

58. Perhaps your stroll into the utter void of amorality could be at issue?

I think it's a very fair guess.

[marions ghost]

22. Another account

This horrific account also--from a young survivor makes it seem very real....:cry:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/norway/8656963/Norway-shooting-politician-describes-witnessing-Utoya-massacre-on-her-blog.html

[babydollhead]

36. my god

[uppityperson]

40. omg

[Search and Destroy]

50. wow

[salin]

60. all I can do is weep

that account is gut wrenching.

[Dorian Gray]

62. Oh god

that account made me cry.

I can't imagine being there and the horror the survivors felt.

[Odin2005]

52. OMG!

:cry: