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seafan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 04:20 PM
Original message
Obama is throwing his presidency away with both hands.

Mandel Ngan/AFP/Getty Images


Digby, and many of the rest of us, are on a tear today.


"Compromising Position"


.....

There's compromise and then there's giving away the store. Even if the Republicans agreed to the revenue in this deal, it could not in any way be seen as shared sacrifice. The cuts are far more onerous to average Americans than whatever "revenue enhancements" they come up with. (This notion of broadening and flattening and lowering rates is a recipe for bullshit, not deficit reduction.)

.....

That's why the President's liberal critics are mad, not because they don't believe in compromise. They simply don't agree that we should "want to get our fiscal house in order" by cutting SS benefits or raising the Medicare age or throwing a bunch of poor people off the health care rolls while the wealthy are making huge profits and income inequality grows and grows and grows. And we certainly aren't persuaded that once we do that we will be able to pursue all kinds of wonderful programs that require new spending. That's fatuous and frankly, insulting.

There are alternatives out there if deficit reduction is so damned important. The House Democrats' plan, for instance, which I doubt the White House has even bothered to read since they had already offered up half the New Deal before it even came out. There's also the pending expiration of the Bush tax cuts. The fact that their reinstatement alone would substantially solve the problem should tell people something about the cause of the deficit. I realize that nobody wants to raise any taxes, ever, but nobody's even tried to make the argument for doing it to solve the deficit so we don't have any clue how it would come out.

And in any case, the deficit issue itself is a disaster capitalist construct designed to confuse people into thinking that this is the cause of their problems when it is actually a symptom of a larger one that nobody wants to deal with. Even engaging in it at this point it is a capitulation to magical thinking and up-is-downism along the lines of the Iraq war debate. It seems this is what we do now (on a totally bipartisan basis, so that's nice): we make our serious problems worse by putting all our energies into "solving" those that are irrelevant.(And botching even that.) It's the sign of a totally dysfunctional system led by people who either don't know or don't care enough to fix it. It's monumentally depressing.




Krugman:

Jonathan Cohn summarizes what seems to have been in the deal that Boehner walked away from; it’s horrifying. Above all, the proposed rise in the age of Medicare eligibility was a real betrayal of both Democratic principles and good government.

.....

But it’s quite something else to take people who are currently being covered by a rational single-payer system, and force them back into the inefficient, parasitic world of private insurance. That’s terrible. And it’s also politically stupid: if you think for a minute that Republicans wouldn’t turn right around and run ads about how Obama is taking away your Medicare, you’ve been living under a rock.

Oh, and of course, Republicans were also trying to undermine health reform; so seniors would find themselves thrown off Medicare but, in many cases, unable to get private insurance either.

Great work, White House.




Robert Reich:


Why Medicare Is the Solution — Not the Problem:

Not only is Social Security on the chopping block in order to respond to Republican extortion. So is Medicare.

But Medicare isn’t the nation’s budgetary problems. It’s the solution. The real problem is the soaring costs of health care that lie beneath Medicare. They’re costs all of us are bearing in the form of soaring premiums, co-payments, and deductibles.

Medicare offers a means of reducing these costs — if Washington would let it.

.....



Reich again:

The Only Social Security Reform Worth Considering: Raising the Ceiling on Income Subject to It

The very idea that Social Security might be on the chopping block in order to pay the ransom Republicans are demanding reveals both the cravenness of their demands and the callowness of the opposition to those demands.

In a former life I was a trustee of the Social Security trust fund. So let me set the record straight.

Social Security isn’t responsible for the federal deficit. Just the opposite. Until last year Social Security took in more payroll taxes than it paid out in benefits. It lent the surpluses to the rest of the government.

Now that Social Security has started to pay out more than it takes in, Social Security can simply collect what the rest of the government owes it. This will keep it fully solvent for the next 26 years.

.....




Glenn Greenwald:

Barack Obama is gutting the core principles of the Democratic party


.....

Where is the "epic shitstorm" from the left which (Duncan "Atrios") Black predicted? With a few exceptions – the liberal blog FiredogLake has assembled 50,000 Obama supporters vowing to withhold re-election support if he follows through, and a few other groups have begun organising as well – it's nowhere to be found.

Therein lies one of the most enduring attributes of Obama's legacy: in many crucial areas, he has done more to subvert and weaken the left's political agenda than a GOP president could have dreamed of achieving. So potent, so overarching, are tribal loyalties in American politics that partisans will support, or at least tolerate, any and all policies their party's leader endorses – even if those policies are ones they long claimed to loathe.

.....

And now he is devoting all of his presidential power to cutting the entitlement programmes that have been the defining hallmark of the Democratic party since Franklin Roosevelt's New Deal. The silence from progressive partisans is (deafening) – and depressing, though sadly predictable.

.....

..... Obama is now on the verge of injecting what until recently was the politically toxic and unattainable dream of Wall Street and the American right – attacks on the nation's social safety net – into the heart and soul of the Democratic party's platform. Those progressives who are guided more by party loyalty than actual belief will seamlessly transform from virulent opponents of such cuts into their primary defenders.

And thus will Obama succeed – yet again – in gutting not only core Democratic policies, but also the identity and power of the American Left.





No matter what happens from this point forward, because Obama so cavalierly thrust Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid upon the table as a "Grand Sacrifice" to carnivorous Republicans, thus offering up the very bedrock principles that courageous Democrats created decades ago to protect the old, the sick, the disabled and the poor, this president has sealed his own fate.




Now, there is no turning back, for this presidency is finished.







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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 04:28 PM
Response to Original message
1. AGREE -- "Now, there is no turning back, for this presidency is finished" and now ...
we have to figure out if there is anything left of the Kobh Bros/DLC Democratic

Party worth saving?


The mood is to overturn this entire Congress!!

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swilton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #1
151. Go For It!
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indepat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #1
152. It's enough to make this bunny wonder if what has happened was the master plan from the
git-go resulting in a one-term democratic presidency wherein all core democratic principles were gutted/scrapped, the Republicans regaining control of both Houses of Congress and the presidency and completing the job of totally killing off the rest of the new deal followed by the further lowering of taxes on the uber-wealthy and large corporations, thereby turning the nation into a third-world-like banana republic with no bananas. :shrug: :patriot:
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #152
200. +1
Yep, the deal with TPTB was for ONE TERM...all it takes to turn us into a 3rd world nation.

May the Mayans and Hopis be correct...
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robdogbucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #152
205. Gee, ya know, this kind of reminds me of Watergate = Carter = Iran hostages = one term
Didn't Carter get swept into office as result of an anti-Washington reaction to the Pubs over-reaching disaster of Watergate/Ford presidency/Pardon years?

Then Carter was emasculated as soon as he stepped into the oval office, with the Iran hostage fiasco setting the stage, after relentless attacks on every idea Carter expressed (look at how many of his ideas still have merit today) and he was soon run out of Washington in favor of (after consolidating power and media)St. Ronnie.

The big difference I can see now is that they have no candidate with the vote-getting charisma apparently the actor had.

We have not come such a long way. I recall Cantor/Boner/McChinless coming out the morning after the '08 election vowing to oppose everything Obama does every day until they get rid of him.

I knew it would be a pitched battle, as the other side has vastly more financial resources/Pentagon support than our side ever has.

What I didn't anticipate is that Obama would accomodate them so keenly.

American tragedy repeating itself over and over and over.




May the lights in the land of plenty shine on the truth one day.
Leonard Cohen





Hands off my Social Security!
Hands off Latin America!


rdb


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harun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #205
227. Fitting analogy. I would agree but Obama started out with Dem majorites in the
House and Senate. There has been no Progressive legislation passed under his tenure.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #205
231. Interesting comments re Carter ---
who will always remain a mystery to me -- !!

And I think you chose an excellent word for what they did to him -- "emasculated" --

For one thing, imo, Repugs couldn't remain out of power too long because they would be

in danger of having their past crimes/violence and the coverups exposed.


Otoh, we had Carter taking us out of the Olympics --

1980 Summer Olympics boycott - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Background|Response by...|Non-participa...|Altered...The 1980 Summer Olympics boycott of the Moscow Olympics was a part of a package of actions initiated by the United States to protest the Soviet war in Afghanistan. It preceded the 1984...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980_Summer_Olympics_boycott - Cached


while Brzezinski made clear that US/CIA had created the Taliban/Al Qaeda thru ISI Pakistan

financing it even up to 9/11 -- and that US had gone into Afghanistan 6 months before the

Russians entered .... "in order to bait the Russians into Afghanistan ... in hopes of giving

them a Vietnam type experience."


We were also printing those obnoxious and violent text books which you saw so much of on TV --

US created, wrote, printed and shipped them into the ME --

and the only explanation could be that they were trying to create a more violent strain of

Islam -- or have it appear as though Muslims were violent.


Have to go right now -- but if you want any more info, let me know --


Also keep in mind that the Carter hostage rescue missions which ended so badly with

two or three helicopters going down were under the command of Ollie North -- second in

command -- Secord. Turns out that the helicopters didn't have the necessary equipment

attached to the helicopters to keep sand out of the engines!


Carter also provided some valuable insight in his attempt to investigate UFO's --

Then director of the CIA, Poppy Bush, told Carter that the president didn't have "high

enough security clearance" to see the information.

That makes clear that UFO information is held as a higher security level than atomic weapons!


However, I don't see Carter and Obama as being very much alike --

Obama is an obvious corporatist -- and on universal health care has betrayed the public in

back room deals with Big Pharma and the private H/C Industry.

Seems quite clear Obama is about to do the same thing with Social Security and Medicare!

I don't see that the Repugs have much need to get rid of Obama since he is pretty much

fulfilling their rw agenda for them --


This is fascism in America -- and we need to find intelligence enough to overcome the

violence of the right wing -- !!












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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #152
226. Once they could control the Dem Party via Koch Bros/DLC ... didn't matter which party ... !!!
Same as what we've seen of Congress over decades --

Whether Repugs are the Minority or the Majority -- they win!

Whether Dems are the Majority or the Minority -- they lose!


If there are any differences between the parties they are fading fast --

and I'd say after Obama finishes this term -- the Dem Party will be nothing

but a rotting corpse!!


Koch Bros DLC had influence over the party for 20 years -- it was harbored within

the party all that time, negatively effecting its agenda, its candidates -- even

its presidential candidates.


Founders advocated great vigilance -- but they gave us a schizophrenic Constitution --

with a lot of elite control from the beginning!!

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Dennis Donovan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #1
193. .
Third-way crap?:eyes:
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 04:29 PM
Response to Original message
2. LOL!
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lamp_shade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. I laughed too.
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theFrankFactor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #3
93. Yeah, you know what cracks me up? Obama's "got this!"
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #2
11. Smile though your heart is aching..
Smile even though it's breaking
When there are clouds in the sky, you'll get by
If you smile through your fear and sorrow
Smile and maybe tomorrow
You'll see the sun come shining through for you

Light up your face with gladness
Hide every trace of sadness
Although a tear may be ever so near
That's the time you must keep on trying
Smile, what's the use of crying?
You'll find that life is still worthwhile
If you just smile

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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #2
53. Laughing at what? At the fact that the president is harming seniors on purpose?
Just to show how bipartisan he is? Doing the bidding of the Hamiltonian Democratic conservatives.

I am not laughing at all.
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dgibby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #53
59. Thanks for posting this.
Of all the things that have unnerved me about this President, this is by far light years ahead of everything else! I wish I'd seen this BEFORE I voted for him.
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emilyg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #53
60. I'm not laughing.
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SusanaMontana41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #53
86. No laughter here. n/t
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theFrankFactor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #86
90. Don't you know? Obama's "got this" LOL!
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SusanaMontana41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #90
204. Keep on keeping it real, Frankie.
Good to see you, my friend. :hi:
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #53
102. It's happening.
:( It's happening right before our very eyes.


The white paper also called for entitlement reform but acknowledged the political constraints that helped stall Mr Bush’s drive to reform Social Security. “The principal problem is one of political choice and will and what is most needed is a bipartisan approach for deciding among the options,” it said.

Barack Obama, a Democrat senator from Illinois, welcomed the initiative as a way of transcending “tired ideologies”.

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woo me with science Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #53
105. Betraying seniors and the poor gets guffaws at DU now. Good fucking god.
Edited on Sat Jul-23-11 10:59 PM by woo me with science
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JoeyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #105
108. Of course it does.
As long as it doesn't hurt Him it isn't important. And it won't hurt Him if it can be spun hard enough.

I'm thinking maybe we could hook some of these people up to a coil and see if we can get them to qualify as a carbon neutral power source.
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 02:18 AM
Response to Reply #105
116. they probably aren't old but the laugh will be on them. when they
get old there will be nothing for them. what the fuckers including Obama think is that us old ones will throw you under the bus. never.
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abelenkpe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #116
185. What?
Edited on Sun Jul-24-11 11:35 AM by abelenkpe
I keep reading that the plan won't effect current recipients of ss and Medicare but will raise the eligibility age for future recipients and lower payments for them. (cause in the future everything will cost less.....ha ha ha) o and will get rid of the deduction for retirement savings. So all the penalties are for future generations: late boomers, gen x and millenials. All the dems I know who are older are ok with the plan and think it "reasonable" while the younger ones do feel like they are being thrown under the bus. Does the plan also hurt current recipients? Cause if so that message needs to get out there
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Blue_In_AK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #185
228. I'm an oilder Democrat currently receiving social security,
and I think this plan is TERRIBLE. I have adult kids who are paying into the system now. I want them to have the same benefits that I do when they reach retirement age.

And I, for one, am not assured that my own benefits won't be effectively cut, given that we probably won't get any COLAs for the foreseeable future, even though all costs are going up.
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JustABozoOnThisBus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #185
233. Divide and conquer
Current geezers (like me) aren't immediately affected. I think the fire is mostly at the other side of the frog pot. But eventually ...

Does the plan hurt current recipients, you ask. Dunno yet, since no plan is passed. There is some talk of using "subtitution" to deny inflation increases. So if salmon goes up, you can substitute carp and actually save money. Hence deflation. That sort of slimy calculation pisses me off.

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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #105
188. No, it's the Reactionary Screamers. At this point, it's laughable.
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #188
212. Please learn political terminology.
You are almost consistently wrong, but sometimes I think you do even yourself a disservice by not knowing the terms you use.

Now if you would care to discuss the topic instead of your childish snarks, try looking at MF's reference from post 53. I know it's a lot of words but try reading it. Then try to see if you can, in any way, put up an argument against it. That is how discussion works. That is what happens when you discuss issues instead of knee jerk into a presidential genuflection pose.

So read the link. If you read it and then still defend the president's actions, we will have a better idea of where you are coming from. Your snarks and misunderstanding of political terminology make that difficult. Come back and discuss an issue and we will see.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 08:14 AM
Response to Reply #53
144. MF....every DU'er should read your link. It's a real eye-opener...
:kick:
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #144
213. That link may be the most valuable post on DU.
Edited on Sun Jul-24-11 01:35 PM by Jakes Progress
Everyone should read it and then we can discuss things more rationally when we really understand where Obama is coming from.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 09:04 AM
Response to Reply #53
158. That you could take it that way shows you are not objective at all
How will the seniors do under the conditions of the default? You aren't even considering that. You are not weighting that in. Thus you are separated from reality.
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #158
175. If the default crashed the economy the cap would be lifted so fast
your head would spin. It would definitely cause near-term damage but the "solutions" being offered up would cause irreparable long-term harm.

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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #158
177. People with actual values aren't neutral on this and Wall Street
will never allow a default so your straw man can go back and sit down.
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Boudica the Lyoness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #177
196. Well said.
All I could think of were swear words.
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #53
203. I read your Journal
about the Hamiltonians....excellent. We are most definitely f*cked.

Is primarying this dude even possible?

I just hate to think that I will never have an 'FDR' in my lifetime. Won't anyone stand up for the working people of this nation? I was hoping for Sanders and a Strickland ticket.
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chervilant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #2
64. You find the 'debt ceiling' debacle laughable?
It's the sign of a totally dysfunctional system led by people who either don't know or don't care enough to fix it. It's monumentally depressing.


Would that I could unreservedly support or applaud our "democratic" president, but the vast majority of the tools infesting our political offices these days--INCLUDING Mr. Obama--are neither exceptionally erudite nor diplomatic.

Beware all idols, with their feet of clay.






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swilton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #64
153. ++++
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donheld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #2
107. The joke is on you?
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Blue_In_AK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #2
232. You seem to be easily amused, KittyWampus.
For you I guess the future's so bright you gotta wear shades.
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undeterred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 04:35 PM
Response to Original message
4. What is his motive?
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kenny blankenship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #4
58. What was his motive for the Great Health Care Swindle? NEOLIBERALISM
Corporatism, NeoLiberalism - which includes the belief, among other incredible things, that people who don't personally care if you live because they never see you, but stand to profit if you die because you pay them, are the best suited to supervise and meter payment for what your Dr. does to treat your health problems.
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grahamhgreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #4
88. Greed. Legendary greed of the hoarding class.
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Adsos Letter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 04:36 PM
Response to Original message
5. Is that photo in the OP supposed to be the President resigning himself to his defeat?
Or is it simply a photo of him listening to a question during a presser?
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CarmanK Donating Member (459 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 04:41 PM
Response to Original message
6. Disagree, there is time to change the course of this debate!
Time is of the essence. But, the repugs underground secretive policies to establish a corporacry in this nation in order to exploit its wealth and success has now been revealed. ALEC is exposed. The Kochs and Murdogs are exposed. The tparty is exposed for what it is a right extreme wing of the GOP that originally surfaced as the MORAL MAJORITY. The ruthless, inhumane inability for the republicans to govern at the state levels are now exposed. People are witnessing the injustices at the hands of republican governors in OH, WI, MI, FL AND NJ. WI is the beginning and Benton Harbor, MI is the poster child for REPUBLICAN GOALS OF TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION. Obama cannot overcome the fact he is black in the eyes of many, but he can with our help take this country from the edge of losing our democracy to internationalists whose own wealth allow them to float on their own island of opulence, separating them from the realities that others face day in and out. OBAMA said from day one, Change happens from the bottom up. It took the tpartiers (with freedom works money-now exposed) to win elections at the local level. It is up to take back those Congressional seats lost to the liars in 2010. We let the repugs shout us down and discourage us from fighting. What is it, demoralize the TROOPS and they will lose. Well, I am not a loser or a quitter. I do not intend to sit out 2012 and give the tparty ideologue, racists, bumbs my HOUSE. This house is not divided. We are one with WI and it begins with a sweep in August. First WI then MI, then onward to VA (we have to get Kane elected to the Senate and Cantor OUT, SO VERY FAR OUT.
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lamp_shade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Bravo, CarmanK. Wish I could rec your post.
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 03:01 AM
Response to Reply #6
122. We are one with Wisconsin, but is Obama?
I don't think so. He certainly has not acted like it.

I think Obama was embarrassed when he saw What Democracy really Looks Like in Wisconsin. And Wisconsin progressives showed us all what democracy really looks like.

It's just a matter of time until the Wisconsin legislature is a glorious progressive blue. Good luck in Wisconsin.
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tomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 07:50 AM
Response to Reply #6
143. obama is exposed. the corporate coup is complete.
you are wrong. it is far too late to be relying on run of the mill democratic party sellouts to achieve social and economic justice.

if you don't know that you don't know nuthin'.
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swilton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 08:57 AM
Response to Reply #6
154. I agree with your scenario of not giving up
I don't think the problem is only with the Republicans - For example, how would Kane be an improvement in the Senate? He's part of the DLC crowd and he's also a religious conservative.

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emsimon33 Donating Member (904 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #154
249. I agree--Kaine is a sell out. He was a failure as head of the Democratic Party
But then Allen is another George W. Bush--a life-long failure whose dad got him where he is.
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adhd_what_huh Donating Member (368 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 04:46 PM
Response to Original message
7. Please...just stop already...pretty please.
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ThatsMyBarack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 08:21 AM
Response to Reply #7
146. Welcome to DU, adhd_what_huh!
:hi:

P.S. I agree. :wtf:
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adhd_what_huh Donating Member (368 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #146
250. thanks
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Vinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 04:51 PM
Response to Original message
9. What I don't understand is that he seems to keep trying to get cooperation
from the teabag segment of the GOP which is a total lost cause. You could put ending Social Security and Medicare entirely on the table and they won't vote to raise the debt ceiling. He should ignore them, not give up the core Democratic principles and count on getting a House majority vote using Democrats rather than Republicans. He should also slap Boehner up side the head and get him to act like a leader. Nancy would have had the troops in line and ready to vote. In the end, if this baloney continues, he needs to take the Constitutional option. This might have started out as a game of chess, but it's starting to look like pin the tail on the donkey. If the House whackos impeach him for following the Constitution, that's a good thing for his re-election hopes.
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 04:55 PM
Response to Original message
10. I don't think he "cavalierly thrust Social Security..." on the table.
I think it pained him to do it but he felt it would hurt fewer people than the country defaulting. I'M NOT AGREEING WITH IT, I'm so outraged he did, but I think it was hard for him to do. And I'm not sure he understood/understands what the repercussions will be for him and the Democratic Party.

I'm praying this weekend get-together will deliver some better news in that area.

I DO give him kudos for upping the revenue/"tax hikes" at the last moment. That's what they've done to us all along in every instance.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. Social Security has nothing to do with the debt or with defaulting. Nothing. n/
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CleanGreenFuture Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #14
80. Why is this consistently ignored in the discourse here?
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SusanaMontana41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #80
87. Those pesky facts ... n/t
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chervilant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #80
189. Those STUNTED critical thinking skills... n/t
.
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robdogbucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #80
208. It would appear that this bit of disinformation accomodates their narrative
But then again, Clean, you most likely already perceive that.

Carry on, regardless

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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #14
94. I understand that. He knows it, too. Don't ask me to explain
why he does half the stuff he does because I'm flabbergasted sometimes, too. But I was just making the point that, in my opinion, he didn't do it cavalierly. I still believe he's a good man and wouldn't even go this route unless he felt (rightly or wrongly) that he had to.
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trud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 02:23 AM
Response to Reply #94
117. why?
Incompetent, out of his depth, closet Republican. Who knows. At this point, who cares. Time for a divorce. A real Democrat in 2012.
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #117
244. It's just my sense of him, and I don't agree with your assessment.
And I care because I feel he can do much good - if only he would!
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 03:08 AM
Response to Reply #94
124. Gateley, there is no question. Obama is a good man, a good husband,
a good father.

But he is a lousy Democrat and a terrible negotiator.

And, I think you are overly kind to him.

Obama wants these cuts to Social Security, Medicaid and Medicare. I look at his appointments, the appointments he made early in his presidency, and I question whether he was honest with voters during the election and primary debates.

He appears to be on the side of those who think that America can afford an empire but cannot afford to provide opportunities to its own citizens.

I wish there were evidence to the contrary, but no one has shown me any, and I have not been able to find any myself.

Obama needs to announce that he will not run for a second term.
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swilton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #124
155. ++++++
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #124
246. Agree that he isn't a hardball negotiator, which is to our detriment.
And I honestly don't understand some (several) of his appointments - very disturbing. But I don't think his reason for choosing them was that he wanted to forward the Republican agenda. In his heart, I think he's with us. What's transpired is baffling to me. But again, I could be wrong, it's just my sense of him. And I DO tend to give people the benefit of the doubt and give them another chance even if they don't deserve it. Kind of like Obama :7.
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. Your reasoning is illogical.
The debt ceiling has never been used as a political football, in the almost 100 years since the Second Liberty Bond Act of 1917.

The President has several viable options for getting around Congress.

Default could easily be avoided, and there is certainly no panic in the bond markets or elsewhere. Even if no agreement could be reached in time and Treasury failed to implement a plan B, there would be some amount of fallout, but the TARP redux hysteria involving apocalyptic doomsday scenarios is overblown and absurd.

To be absolutely clear, there is no reason under the sun to rush through economically devastating cuts in exchange for a standard debt ceiling hike.

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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. Unless you want to. n/t
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #19
42. Correct. This is a political choice which he is making.
The real question is "Why?"

I think Galbraith may have touched on it when he mentioned that Wall Street sees SS as competition which is crowding out their potential profits. Overhead for the program is around 1% right now. After Chile privatized its system, bank fund fees swelled into double digits. The parasite class wants this money, in the worst way.

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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. Obama seems to come down on the side of privatizing
public institutions, as we have seen with schools and health insurance.
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robdogbucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #44
210. And yet extends corporate welfare status to the nuke industry
in order to ram that dangerous, unnecessary, unwanted energy source on us.


Why? Again?




And the wars?

And the bail outs of Wall St./Medical insurance industry?

And the disparagement of the "Boomers,"?

And the betrayal of the rational drug policy proponents?

The hiring of almost exclusively DLCers for cabinet positions?

And the continuation of torture and NSA wiretapping, Patriot Act, Guantanamo...........?


Yup, it's all laughable alright.


?





We are fucked



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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 03:13 AM
Response to Reply #42
125. Bingo, girl gone mad.
You hit Obama's motivations right on the button.

He wants to help Wall Street.

Wall Street, after all, can help him spin his $5 million into who knows how many millions.

What can whiny seniors on Social Security do for him after he moves out of the White House?

Obama has been talking to the Clintons.

They have become quite, quite wealthy since leaving the White House. They did a lot of favors for their friends on Wall Street and in the corporate world in recent years.

I remember when people feared the Clintons' legal bills would force them into bankruptcy. Their rise to wealth is quite an inspiring story, I am sure.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. Yes, it has been used as a political football. Further, even if it had never been so used-IT IS NOW.
And you better wonder about your prediction that nothing will happen to our Economy if we go into default- YOU SOUND EXACTLY LIKE THE TEABAGGERS IN CONGRESS. They don't think it'll be a problem either.

And POTUS has no viable options to go around Congress.

Your entire post is essentially jibberish.
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #21
35. There are at least three viable options if the ceiling isn't raised.
Edited on Sat Jul-23-11 05:28 PM by girl gone mad
Coin seignorage, the 14th amendment or simply canceling the $1.6 trillion in Treasuries held by the Fed.

You might be heavily invested in this crisis, but it isn't a real crisis. A sovereign currency government can only default on its debt obligations by choice. The bond markets are well aware of this fiscal reality and, as such, have flat-out refused to panic.

If you would take the small amount of time required to actually read my post before deciding to overreact, you would see that I did mention there will be some fallout in the event that the President and Treasury do not implement a back up plan. It's difficult to ascertain the total damage of such a failure, but it's likely to be temporary and repairable. Cuts to social programs would have a much deeper, more devastating and long-term consequential economic impact. With an unemployment rate hovering near 16%, the housing market still tanking and GDP looking extremely weak, this is not the time to be pulling more money out of the economy.



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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 03:20 AM
Response to Reply #35
126. In my view, cutting Social Security, Medicaid and Medicare
will destroy consumer confidence.

Obama talks a lot about consumer and business confidence. Cutting those core programs will just tear the country apart.

Just a couple of hundred a month less even if in 5-10 years, could place a lot of seniors and their children into a state of confusion.

Obama does not seem to have considered the psychological effect of what he is doing on poor and middle class American families.

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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #21
159. Exactly, notice the above post pretends there are no Republicans
And no Republican house

And how many of these posters stayed home in 2010 because the parties are no different and they were going to teach the Democrats a lesson? All they did was teach themselves a lesson. And they are now going into insanity by pretending it's not so.

The continue to fantasize that a President is a dictator.
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #16
39. Great post, they are twisting and turning and trying every way
to excuse this, even pretending that it 'pained him' to put the New Deal on the table as a bargaining chip to get a few miserable tax concessions from bullies.

There is only way to deal with bullies, and we all know what that is, and it is more than possible to do when you are POTUS. But the fact that it is not even being considered speaks volumes.

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chervilant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #16
70. Wow...
Thank goodness! I wish more DUers could be absolutely clear about this ridiculous Kabuki theater intended by the disaster capitalists of EVERY ilk to panic the hoi polloi into embracing their untenable hedonism.

If we (the hoi polloi) don't get a clue--and SOON--we richly deserve what we're about to experience...
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #16
95. I didn't present "reasoning", I merely stated my opinion. And
HE'S not the one who is behind using it as a political football.

If you can't get the votes for the "standard" debt ceiling hike (and I agree, up until now it has been), you start making concessions to get those votes.

Again, not saying I agree with his approach because I don't (from my vantage point out here, anyway), just stating I don't think he doesn't care about what the cuts will do to those receiving benefits. AND, we don't know if there will be any cuts to recipients. That's what we have to wait and see.

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MessiahRp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 02:42 AM
Response to Reply #95
118. I think he is more than you realize..
He wants this fight for two reasons...

1. He thinks it makes the GOP look irrational and impossible to deal with (it does)

2. He can place the blame on them while looking like the rational compromiser... all the while using that cover to get away with making the kind of cuts to Medicare and SS no Republican nor Democrat ever dared to make before. He's got the media looking at the catfight and thinking he's being reasonable but it's all a cover to deflect heat from his actual goal, one of his corporate masters for decades, to gouge SS and Medicare benefits at any cost.

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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #118
243. But again, I don't think he really wants to touch Med/SS, I'm still
feeling he's a good person who just doesn't have whatever it takes to play hardball.

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Hawkowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #10
17. I think it was EASY for him to do
He doesn't appear to have the character to EVER do the hard thing, the correct thing, the moral thing. He always chooses the most conflict-averse easy way.
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chervilant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #17
73. Not to mention,
the most passive-aggressive, "Watch out, or I'll REALLY get mad--if you push me in a corner!" way...
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swilton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #73
160. I agree with the passive-aggressiveness
In his heart of hearts I don't think he believes in the core Democratic values as set forth by FDR, et. al....The fact that he could be or live with the deceit is really telling.

I think that were it not for his race and the bigotry within the Republican Party, he would have been a Romney Republican...
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Boudica the Lyoness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #160
201. I think he's a power hungry man
who only is in the Democratic party because the Republicans wouldn't have him.

From the start his cabinet choices have really bothered me...now this. He should not even be entertaining the idea of touching SS etc.

I have lost all respect for him now. There is no way I would support him again.
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robdogbucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #201
211. Fits the profile of the Chicago machine politician, no? n/t
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #17
97. I have to agree with that, taking the non-conflict option, but
I still don't think it was easy for him. Just my take on the man, that's all.

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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 03:53 AM
Response to Reply #97
135. I think the man is good, too
And I think we need a stronger President who is willing to fight for the core Democratic values.
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chervilant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #135
186. hmm...
I have to wonder if Mr. Obama's inherent 'goodness' is becoming a red herring in these discussions about his relative merit as a POTUS. I am hopeful that we, the hoi polloi, can flex our critical thinking skills and use Obama's ACTIONS to interpret his relative merit.

In other words, debating a person's 'goodness' puts us on the slippery slope of judging an individual's inherent 'worth.' In debating Obama's goodness, do we become fodder for his sycophants' criticism and dismissal?
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #186
207. I think you have something there
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whathehell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 06:33 AM
Response to Reply #17
141. I agree...I have lost all faith in this man.n/t
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ljm2002 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #10
38. Did it pain him to set up the Simpson-Bowles ...
... aka "Catfood" Commission? No one asked him to set up such a commission, he did that on his own initiative. And even though the commission failed to make an official recommendation, he is now trying to implement the plan that Simpson and Bowles and others came up with anyway, even though the commission was never able to agree on it.

Sorry, your interpretation of how he feels about putting Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid on the table just does not square with his actions. His actions indicate that he is indeed a true believer in the Chicago school of economics, more's the pity.

And now we are facing our own version of austerity measures, or some might call it "shock doctrine" measures.
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #38
98. I could be wrong, it's just my sense of the guy. nt
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suffragette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #38
223. His actions are coherent with his "violent agreement" on G20 Austerity
And that is all about implementing an Austerity plan, even though as you noted, the first attempt to do that through Simpson Bowles failed by its own bylaws.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x1523102#1523602


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1442301&mesg_id=1447858
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chervilant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #10
68. Oh, noes!
Did our poor wee president get a paper cut, 'putting Social Security on the table'?!

You think he doesn't understand 'what the repercussions will be for him and the Democratic Party'?!

Social Security should NEVER HAVE BEEN CONFLATED WITH THE RIDICULOUS DEBT CEILING KABUKI THEATER!!!

Our species is pure dee ate up with the dumbass...
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #68
99. I think he thinks he can smooth it over, and I think he's wrong, but
it's only my opinion (which everyone always seems to disagree with, anyway) so hardly worth the effort of your snark.

And you think I don't know SS/Medicare/Medicaid shouldn't be anywhere NEAR that table? I didn't agree with the man, I just think he's not as uncaring as the word "cavalierly" suggests.

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Fire1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #10
72. He definitely understands the repercussions. n/t
Edited on Sat Jul-23-11 08:01 PM by Fire1
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #72
103. I can't see how he does but still go along with it. He didn't see
the repercussions of the Health Care Reform (I heard Robert Gates say they were stunned because they thought they'd accomplished a lot and the people would understand the concessions).

I think he feels he'll be able to smooth it over, but I could be way off base. It's just my opinion and neither you nor I truly knows what he does or doesn't understand.
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Angry Dragon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 03:42 AM
Response to Reply #10
130. If that is true then he is not a very smart man
and has no business being president

You do not put SS on the table .......... period
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 03:49 AM
Response to Reply #10
134. He has solid constitutional backing to use the fourteenth amendment
And yet he doesn't. There's a question we should be pondering during this season of Nancy Kerrigan/Tanya Harding style Kabuki theater, don't you think?
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 08:23 AM
Response to Reply #134
147. He said in a speech this week that his lawyers told him he shouldn't use the 14th..
There's some speculation that the Repugs would go after him and take it to the supreme court declaring that he had used the 14th to usurp power. I guess everything these days is fear of the Repugs...fear of Wall Street tanking...fear, fear, fear.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #147
191. He didn't get the right lawyers.
He had NO problem finding lawyers to OK waging a new WAR in Libya without Congressional Approval.

White House justification for waging WAR without Congressional Approval:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejvyDn1TPr8

Obama could have used THOSE lawyers.
Bush the Lesser even found lawyers to OK torture.

The point is,
don't avoid the fight because you might not WIN.
Fight to protect Social security & Medicare because it is the RIGHT thing to do,
and let the pieces fall where they may.
I'll STAND with someone willing to FIGHT for ME, even if they lose,
but I have NO respect for those who surrender BEFORE the fight starts.



"There are forces within the Democratic Party who want us to sound like kinder, gentler Republicans.
I want a party that will STAND UP for Working Americans."
---Paul Wellstone


photo by bvar22



"By their WORKS you will know them."

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WorseBeforeBetter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #10
209. How in God's name could he not understand what the...
"repercussions will be for him and the Democratic Party"? SS and Medicare have LONG been considered the third rail for a reason. If he doesn't understand that, he should step aside for a Democrat who does. He does understand that, though, and he and the aptly-named Pea Party are transforming the Democratic Party into something unrecognizable.
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Ikonoklast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 04:58 PM
Response to Original message
12. Yeah, sure, whatever.
Bitter still.
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #12
96. Yeah, me, too, but jeez, I was only objecting to the word
"cavalierly", not saying I agree with his approach.

Cavalierly makes it sound like he's all "let them eat cake", and I don't believe that.

Just my opinion.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 04:59 PM
Response to Original message
13. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. Dr. King's "beloved community" has been talking to this president
from day one and he has ignored it, played them off, it's the saddest thing I've seen in politics ever, I think.



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Fire1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #18
74. He "played them off" to show that he is the president of the
U.S. not just black folks.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #74
91. As usual, his attempts to neutralize right wing criticism
Edited on Sat Jul-23-11 09:45 PM by EFerrari
only wind up hurting him.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #13
28. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
emulatorloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #13
30. Hate to break it to you, some things are worth fearing. Republican Control of the House
is why we are in this mess in the first place.

We would not be having this discussion if we still had Pelosi's house.

This crisis was manufactured by Republican Leadership, and while it may have been "fake" initially, they did not take into account the truly fanatical members of the house who are ready to default and send all of us into another Great Depression.

I admire you position of not wanting to live in fear. But I also know better that to stand in the middle of the Street to let a bus hit me. Some fears are manufactured and silly. Republican Rule is a serious problem - see all the states currently under Republican rule after the 2010. Election.

Our NUMBER ONE PRIORITY in 2012 is to take back the House and Senate. I don't care if you vote for Mickey Mouse for President, WE NEED A STRONG REAL MAJORITY IN BOTH HOUSES OF CONGRESS.

Best regards.
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 03:25 AM
Response to Reply #30
127. Pelosi's House could have raised the debt ceiling before
the Tea-Baggers took over. Had they acted then, we would not have this problem now. So, let's don't let Pelosi off the hook.

I like her, but the fact that we are in this predicament is to a great extent her fault.

And to an even greater extent, it is Harry Reid's fault.

Harry Reid was not capable of getting the health insurance reform package through the Senate in a timely manner.

He should have counted his votes much earlier than he did.

And he let Baucus run the show -- a huge, huge mistake.

Reid is another spineless Democrat if you want to ask me.
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mazzarro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #127
176. Democratic party leadership sucks and has been since after Howard Dean
Democratic party leadership in Congress has been lacking for a long, long time. The party did not have the spine to resist B*sh and the rethugs' clamor for war in Iraq; they lacked the spine to bring the B*sh administration to justice for war crimes; they lacked the spine to hold the administration accountable for the obvious looting of the treasury; and they lacked the spine to do anything worth fighting for instead they have always been seeking for the easy way on all things - which is the same path Obama has been following. IOW this is clearly a road map of the DLC/New Democrats/Third Way apparatchik running the party - unfortunately.
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robdogbucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #176
215. So is the criticism of Nader's eval. that both parties are essentially the same
now beginning to make sense?

We need drastically more courageous leadership than we have seen.
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Fearless Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 05:04 PM
Response to Original message
15. I'm not usually one to say I told you so but... I told you so.
You don't screw the American people. Period.
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #15
22. Counting chickens?
Last I checked, the election is next November, yes?

Probably wise to hold your I told you so's until that time...
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Fearless Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. Clarification: The I told you so was for the opinion above not the possibility of it happening.
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #25
34. Ah
That makes sense.

:crazy:
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Fearless Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. It does.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #15
24. LOL! Yeah, it's a done deal. Which only means you desperately want this to happen.
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Fearless Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. If he touches social programs I would want "this" to happen. Yes.
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #24
214. Your lolling is starting to get a little hysterical.
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 05:11 PM
Response to Original message
20. Obama's bound to lose Pennsylvania!
So said many similar prognosticators in the summer of 2008.

Plenty of people have made fools of themselves predicting Obama's political demise. The list of links will keep you company in the Sad Corner come November 2012.

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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #20
27. Except now he has a record. And if he doesn't change course
Edited on Sat Jul-23-11 05:58 PM by EFerrari
on jobs at a minimum, he'll lose all the same people in 2012 that he lost in 2010, plus all their unemployed friends and relatives.

eta: Sorry, my keyboard is losing its "t" slowly but surely
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #27
33. Like I said, plenty of people have made fools of themselves making such predictions
We will see where your political IQ stands in the year or so to come. What did you think of his chances in Pennsylvania last time around?

:hi:
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #33
41. I wrote this essay about PA.
Edited on Sat Jul-23-11 05:38 PM by EFerrari
April 16, 2008

To Small Town Pennsylvania from a San Francisco Liberal

By Elizabeth Ferrari

They're at it again, the politicians, trying to make us think we're not only not on the same side, but that we have nothing in common and that we wouldn't even like each other if we met up, by accident, in line at the grocery store. Who they think this will benefit is beyond me -- except, it probably won't be us. Any of us.

If you've never been to San Francisco, you might not know that it is a small city and that is feels like a small town community for those of us who try to keep the place running. We're on the coast and get new families all the time but, the same families have been in our police and fire fighter forces for generations. The same families have been grocers and butchers, carpenters, beekeepers and teachers -- except for those that are getting squeezed out of their family businesses by retail chains. San Francisco liberals have to band together and fight tooth and nail to protect our family owned businesses, our open spaces and our local public schools, just like you do.

We have to fight developers who prey on our community just like all working people do nowadays. They come here and see a business opportunity to build expensive housing none of us can afford, hotels for tourists and office space for businessmen who need to be local for their China or South America business. These developers don't realize they're pricing our working families out of the market, causing our taxes to go higher than we can afford or tearing down housing that will wind up putting people on the street with nowhere to go. San Francisco liberals, these days, spend a lot of time just trying to keep people in their homes when we're not fighting to hold on to our own homes.

My dog is a hunting dog. We don't exactly hunt anything because I'm one of those people that would more likely shoot her own foot off if you put a gun in my hands but you can't take the hunt out of the dog. Instead, I use her nose to find animals that dispossessed families have dumped in parking lots and in the park in their desperation over not being able to provide for them any more. The dog sniffs them out and I set traps for them. There is a large colony of abandoned cats now in Golden Gate Park and if you saw them, your heart would break because although there are some feral ones, there are many who don't know why their family dropped them off in this coyote rich environment. They only know they went from being someone's pet to some animal's potential dinner.

I know we're supposed to be "godless" here -- that's one of the things you're supposed to think of when someone says "San Francisco liberal" -- but nothing could be further from the truth. There are four places of worship within a half mile of my home and a lot of the city business is conducted through the network these congregations form. The biggest, most beautiful piece of architecture you can see from my kitchen window is St. Cecelia's and there are two modest storefronts used by evangelical congregations on the streetcar line a block away. You might of heard of Glide Memorial Church. Even those of us who aren't everyday churchgoing people go there to sit and listen and sing and volunteer with the work the church does among the poor. Or, we are the poor. Either way. Glide is part of the backbone of this city. We don't make a big deal out of this. We don't talk about it very well but, that's the truth.

It really upsets me to hear the talking heads and certain politicians say "San Francisco liberals" as if we all have high paying jobs at Apple Computer, drive big cars, make too much money and spend our free time finding fault with the rest of the county. We are losing jobs just like everyone else. Our clinics are closing just like they are everywhere else. (The average waiting time in our local Emergency Room is eight hours. Bring a book.) Everything we need to survive is going up in price while our wages lag behind and while the dollar falls. Poverty is doing good business in this town. And our kids are leaving because they can't manage here and are forced to leave family and friends behind to go somewhere else where wages keep up better with prices. Where they have a chance to have a livelihood they can sustain.

"San Francisco liberals" are the service workers that say goodbye to these young people, their children. The ones who fight the special interests at City Hall to try to keep our family businesses open when those big chains try to buy their way in. The ones that walk picket lines when our few remaining unions need help because foreign interests seem to get more attention from our government than our working families do.

We may do it dressed in pink or with funny hair or big angry signs, but that's all we're really doing. We're trying to keep this town for our families, for our neighborhoods just like most of you are doing, when either of us have the energy to borrow from our working lives to share.

That's who San Francisco "liberals" are. Nice to meet you.

http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_elizabet_080415_to_small_town_pennsy.htm

So if my judgment is foolish, it won't be the first time. :)
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DeSwiss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #41
235. Excellent! n/t
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 03:32 AM
Response to Reply #27
128. EFerrari, here is the problem.
If people feel that Obama is not really offering a better alternative than the Republicans, they just won't come out to vote in 2012.

And at this time, Obama is not offering that better alternative.

A lot of Democrats are fired up in Wisconsin and Ohio, but Obama is not supporting their efforts to defend their union rights -- at least not to the extent that Obama would need to in order to really win enthusiastic support from Democrats in those states.

Obama is not doing much to excite Democrats -- not just those of us who are political junkies -- but any Democrats.

There is sort of a feeling of well, we are supporting Obama because we don't see anything better. Something better could show up.

Obama, it seems to me, has a lot to worry about in terms of getting re-elected.

He has not differentiated himself from the Republican stance on that big issue -- Social Security, Medicaid and Medicare -- the safety net. That is going to hurt him very badly. I will not vote for anyone who agrees to cut Social Security, Medicaid and Medicare. I have worked with very, very poor people. Those programs are what makes it possible for them to at least die with a little dignity. Those programs are sacrosanct.

No one can claim to be a Christian and favor cutting them. And President Obama does claim to be a Christian.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #128
179. People want jobs. If the Republican runs on job creation, we're screwed.
If Obama doesn't move in that direction, I agree, our turnout will be cr@P and that will hurt our people down ticket. :(
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99th_Monkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #128
187. ++++ Well said +++++ ~nt
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emulatorloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 05:12 PM
Response to Original message
23. Don't Count Your Chickens Before They Are Hatched.
The final deal is what is going to matter to most Americans, not the day to day "sausage making" negotiating and the gamesmenship that we are so obsessed with.

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JTFrog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 05:17 PM
Response to Original message
29. The republicans thank you for this.
Nothing like playing right into their hand.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. Obama volunteers to dismantle the New Deal but what is important
is a discussion board thread.

LOL
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emulatorloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #32
40. I'm not sure why you've gone the way of the Hyperbolic lately. Lets talk for a second, I am
Edited on Sat Jul-23-11 05:37 PM by emulatorloo
trying to understand you.

You can say the proposed cuts were bad, horrible, you don't like that they were part of the negotioants proposal, that Obama poisoned the poliitical narrative etc etc.

But to claim that they representing the "Dismantling of the New Deal" is out and out hyperbole. And it makes you appear that have no grasp of what Boehner was asking re entitlements (The ACTUAL honest to goodness dismantling of the New Deal).

And you are making it appear that do not realize the House is full of fanatics and true believers because of the 2010 election results.

Here is the thing:

You and I have had several serious discussions about ideas, policies, directions etc that have been very productive and I feel have been beneficial to both of us.

Despite some superficial differences I find that you and I are usually on the same page of an issue. If not, we usually at least have a better understanding of each others viewpoints. And that is a good thing, I appreciated those discussions very much.

Neither of us has engaged in hyperbole or sloganeering in those discussions.

That is until recently, I sense you are slipping in the direction of sloganeering the last few days and I don't understand it. You appear to have aligned with some posters who have serious blinders on.

Before you seem to have a larger grasp of for want of a better role, the totality of an issue.

Before you and I could talk rationally discuss these issues, and I miss that.

Best Regards
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. Calling people who disagree with you irrational is not an argument. n/t
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emulatorloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #43
47. Claiming I called you irrational is a lie if that is what you are attempting here
Edited on Sat Jul-23-11 05:53 PM by emulatorloo
I did indeed call someone irrational who was:

- having a meltdown and filling post after post with swearwords.
- implying that anybody who did not agree with his opinion was too stupid to understand his brilliance.

You've never done that.

But you have descending into bumpersticker hyperbolic sloganeering recently,. It seem out of character for you, i am trying to understand why you've taken this turn.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. As I already posted to you in another thread
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emulatorloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #49
52. Thanks, But Please Note: You posted that to --SheepShank-- not me.
Edited on Sat Jul-23-11 06:09 PM by emulatorloo
Maybe you have me confused with Sheepshank?

So I did not see that post of yours.

I appreciate the links. I had already seen several of them, but not the CEPR ones.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #52
57. On that thread. Here's the link.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1553379&mesg_id=1558648

You know, like most DUers, I'm trying to understand what this means for us. I do not hate our president, and I do not want him to fail but what I've learned about him in the last two weeks leads me to believe his ideas of good economic public policy are antithetical to mine. And to the extent he continues to pursue those policies, I have to withdraw my support.
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emulatorloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #57
63. Missed that too, i allowed myself to get distracted from our conversation.
Let's again be clear on this though - I never called you irrational. I think you are one of the most rational posters around quite frankly.

"I do not hate our president" Lol of course not. I don't "love" him either. He was my third or fourth choice at the caucus, I wanted somebody much further to the left.

As to what you just wrote, I can understand your viewpoint perfectly when you express it that way and I respect that. I know this is a struggle we're all facing - what does it mean for us.

One way we may differ is when do we decide what "it" is? You sound like you've had enough already, based on the dead deal. Fair enough.

To me "it" is the final product.

That is not the same as saying we have to passively wait. I have called and emailed my rep and my Senators multiple times this week, and will do so next week to keep pushing them to protect the safety net and get revenue increases. I think we have to do everything we can.

At this point I'm still willing to give O the benefit of the doubt until the final product. I will evaluate the product in terms of the political realities we've got since the 2010 election (Bills have to pass the House. and the House is full of insane people). I know it is not going to be exactly what we want because of the political reality. Will the good outweigh the bad or at least keep the bad from being the Worst? That is what I will be looking at.

Although nothing much may matter if the House decides it would be good to default. Sounds like they are moving more in that direction.

A bit rambling.

Best Regards.




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chervilant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #57
76. + a GAZILLION!!!
(snarkily trying for a wee bit of that hyperbole you've been falsely accused of promulgating...)
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democracy1st Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #57
100. I can't believe after all the evidence people still defends this rightward tilt
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chervilant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #47
75. hmm...
Your entire comment to EFerrari (down to the smarmy "Best Regards") smacks of condescension, as though your position and your opinions are sacrosanct and her's are a big pile of dog doo.
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theFrankFactor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #75
89. +Infinity
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emulatorloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #75
169. Don't twist my words. You don't anything about the discussions EFerrari & have had this past year.
Edited on Sun Jul-24-11 09:38 AM by emulatorloo
IMHO he's a great, thoughtful, dedicated person. I have a lot of respect for EFerrari; I wouldn't have asked what his thinking was if I didn't care and didn't think I could learn from him.

ON EDIT: I close all my PM'S and e- mails to people I am friends with "Best Regards". You don't know anything about me, so refrain word Parsing in order to ascribe "evil motives."
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chervilant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #169
184. hmm..
I only shared with you how your post comes across (to me and--apparently--to others). In pointing out this perception, I hoped you might consider how you 'sound.' Clearly, this IS my humble opinion. However, it's worth noting that issues you work hard to push away from you might be the very ones you need to hug close and examine.

(BTW, Elizabeth (EFerrari) apparently gets much the same gender bias as do I...)
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #169
194. Yes SHE is a great person. lol nt
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JTFrog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #32
61. You must think it's important because you keep pushing bullshit propaganda like this here. n/t
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #61
81. If it were just my bullshit, that would be one thing.
But when it's Beth and CEPR, and Beth and Bernie Sanders, and Beth and Paul Krugman, and Beth and Matt Taibbi, and Beth and Glen Greenwald, and Beth and digby, and Beth and Michael Hudson, and Beth and Robert Reich, I'm so sorry, I just can't take all the credit.

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robdogbucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #61
216. Projection much? n/t
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_ed_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #29
62. It's sick that you only look at these issues
as win-lose party politics. These things are actually vital to lots of people in this country. Life isn't cable news.
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JTFrog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #62
66. It's sick that people have actually forgotten
what a repig in control can do. All the hyperbole around here and bullshit propaganda is just that. People here calling for impeachment of Obama or encouraging votes for a third party candidate are completely out of touch with reality.
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #66
101. You criticize what you perceive as hyperbole and popaganda..
then proceed to engage in the basest forms of both.
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 03:46 AM
Response to Reply #66
131. No one is calling for impeachment.
We are calling for Obama to announce that he will not run in 2012.

He needs to open the field and let Democrats decide on a different candidate.

Obama was unable to get his party out to vote in 2010, and he is splitting it with his stance on Social Security, Medicaid and Medicare.

It is time to let new candidates vie for the presidential nomination in 2012.

Obama said one thing during his candidacy and then immediately turned around and appointed aides who were headed in a very different direction after he took office. (You better believe the Republicans will use his wavering on issues and lack of principles or sure direction in 2012.)

Rank and file Democrats are increasingly abandoning him. Obama needs to reconsider running again. I hope he decides to drop out.

Obama has many good qualities. Had he been elected at a different time, his ability to compromise and find a middle ground might have brought him great success and the adoration of the country.

Sadly, the qualities that Obama brings to the presidency are not what the country needs at this time. Obama needs to recognize that and cede the field to someone who can meet the Republicans with the strength and determination and willingness to intimidate them and unveil them as the heartless bullies that they are.
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azul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #131
183. Well said.
Can you please post this in GDP?
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robdogbucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #131
217. "Obama was unable to get his party out to vote in 2010, and he is splitting it with his stance.."
Say no more Squire, say no more.

Ye have hit the nail on the head.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #62
164. It's sick to be out of touch with reality
I guess Congress is supposed to powerless?

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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #29
161. AMEN!
They keep doing it!!!!!!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 05:19 PM
Response to Original message
31. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
reformist2 Donating Member (998 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
36. This is unfair. Obama is trying to make the best of a very bad situation.

1.) $1.4 trillion of borrowing every year and the S&P warning us of a downgrade of our debt.

2.) A stimulus package that's running out this year, and unemployment is still 9%.

3.) A House controlled by right-wing Republican zealots.


And we expect Obama to fend off all cuts to Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid, raise the debt ceiling, *and* extract a big tax increase to boot???



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MouseFitzgerald Donating Member (208 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #36
48. Are you being serious?
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reformist2 Donating Member (998 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #48
55. Yes. Quite frankly, we're lucky these programs haven't already been cut in half.

We can't keep borrowing $1 trillion per year forever. And we have to face facts, a Republican House is not going to give us the tax increases we need to close the gap.
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emulatorloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #48
56. Don't you remember the 2010 election results?
Whether you want to admit it or not, the House is a real factor in this mess. We would not even be having this conversation if we had teh Pelosi house.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 08:32 AM
Response to Reply #56
148. Why did Obama put Tim Kaine in as DNC Chair? Why did he allow Ted Kennedy's seat to go to a Repug..
Pew Report shows that it's the Independents and "New Registered Dems" that didn't come out to vote in 2010. Howard Dean worked hard to re-energize the Dem Party an opportunity which Tim Kaine threw away. And, that OFA was cut loose after the '08 election.

I could give you links to all this but I don't have the time to search.
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robdogbucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #56
218. I repeat....
"....Obama was unable to get his party out to vote in 2010, and he is splitting it with his stance on Social Security, Medicaid and Medicare...."
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #36
54. Fend them off? He OFFERED them up to extremists. He is willing to give them away.
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 03:49 AM
Response to Reply #36
133. Meanwhile, Obama is trying to sell Congress on TWO MORE TRADE
AGREEMENTS. He should be trying to do away with or renegotiate the trade agreements we have.

The facts you stated suggest that Obama's policies have not worked and probably will not work.

Time to let someone with different ideas -- more progressive ideas since we have tried the conservative ones -- serve in the White House.

We need a more assertive person on our side -- a real advocate.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 05:44 PM
Response to Original message
45. "this president has sealed his own fate.
...Now, there is no turning back, for this presidency is finished."

Does "sealed his own fate" and "finished" mean President Obama is going to lose?

That's what Reich's articles were implying?

Krugman reporting on a rumored deal means the Presidency is "finished"?

Really?

Here's a another Krugman piece from today: Naked Blackmail:

It turns out that in the final stages of the debt negotiations, Republicans suddenly added a new demand — a trigger that would end up eliminating the individual mandate in health care reform.

This is telling, in a couple of ways.

First, the health care mandate has nothing to do with debt and deficits. So this is naked blackmail: the GOP is trying to use the threat of financial catastrophe to impose its policy vision, even in areas that have nothing to do with the issue at hand, a vision that it lacks the votes to enact through normal legislation.

<...>

There are those who think the individual mandate is the end of this Presidency. Maybe they should be cheering on Boehner!

Oh, and Greenwald's piece is drivel.

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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 03:58 AM
Response to Reply #45
136. Obama should have gone straight to the people and fired them
up in support of Social Security, Medicaid and Medicare.

It is utterly incompetent of him to have sat in the White House chewing his cud with the Republican leadership for all these weeks instead of going out and meeting with grass-roots and ordinary Democrats (not his fat cat donors).

He should have been chanting "Show me what democracy looks like? This is what democracy looks like" and using the fervor of the Wisconsin movement to support a push-back against the Tea-Baggers.

Any natural-born politician would have done that.

Obama is a nice guy, but he does not not have what it takes to be president of the United States. He has to seek and earn the support of the majority of the people. And he just does not have the ability to do that.

The stage was set for him. And he refused to step out and play his role.

This moment in history will never be repeated. Obama missed the boat.

Deep in your heart, ProSense, you know that. We all do.
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robdogbucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #136
219. "...It is utterly incompetent of him to have sat in the White House chewing his cud..."
Edited on Sun Jul-24-11 02:18 PM by robdogbucky
You mean just like he did in '09 when the Teabaggers were born and ran roughshod all over his so-called plans for medical care reform with no pushback from the Oval Office?

That's what happened and here we are.

Again.




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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #219
242. Yes, like he did in 09 when he refused to give the public option
proponents an equal seat at the table while he handed insurance over to the insurance companies.
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graywarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 05:47 PM
Response to Original message
46. .
:wtf:
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 05:55 PM
Response to Original message
50. Not if he gets out of this with no cuts to SS and Medicare.
If that happens he'll be a hero, and deservedly so.

If he doesn't, than it's not his future that's going down the drain, but that of regular folks around the country. Obama is set for life, and will make millions on speaking tours after his presidency. His future is the most secure one under consideration.
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grahamhgreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #50
85. Yes, there is a microscopic ameoba of delusion that still has hope that he can change.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #50
197. Sadly, NO.
He has crossed the Rubicon as far as Social Security & Medicare go.
What once was sacred to the "Democratic party",
is sacred no more.
They have been reduced to Bargaining Chips.
Even if the cuts are avoided THIS time,
it will be so much easier to put them back on the table Next Time.
Obama has set a precedent that I though NO Democrat would EVER do.

How FAR to the Right we have fallen. :cry:


"There are forces within the Democratic Party who want us to sound like kinder, gentler Republicans.
I want a party that will STAND UP for Working Americans."
---Paul Wellstone


photo by bvar22,
shortly before Paul was killed



"By their WORKS you will know them."

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DeSwiss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 05:58 PM
Response to Original message
51. Finished, indeed. - K&R n/t
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 07:38 PM
Response to Original message
65. What ''shared sacrifice''?
The only people I ever see sacrifice are Democrats.
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Avalux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 07:42 PM
Response to Original message
67. *AHEM* It's not over.
Some are so quick to make proclamations based on nothing.
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 04:01 AM
Response to Reply #67
137. I will be delighted, Avalux, if I am proved wrong on this.
But I'm not going to hold my breath.

I have been here too many times. Obama missed his mission, missed his chance to really connect with voters. It is highly doubtful that he can win in 2012.

His only hope is that Republicans come up with a candidate whose life is extremely scandalous.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 07:46 PM
Response to Original message
69. Don't throw my towel in yet!
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maxrandb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 07:49 PM
Response to Original message
71. Posts like this pi$$ me the hell off
If we wanted to make sure this kind of "compromise" didn't happen...THEN PEOPLE SHOULDN'T HAVE SAT ON THEIR ASSES LAST NOVEMBER TO SEND A MESSAGE.

You know what I say? "Effing Message Recieved!"

We surrendered the god damn government to the "effing" Tea-baggers, so...Enjoy the damn message we sent!
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #71
111. No one sat on their asses last November.
Edited on Sun Jul-24-11 01:06 AM by EFerrari
That's just wrong. Our turnout was fine. Independents broke for Republicans and likely over JOBS.

eta: http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/vote-2010-elections-results-midterm-exit-poll-analysis/story?id=12003775
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Fly by night Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 08:19 PM
Response to Original message
77. By lying about his support for medical cannabis in 2008 & then doubling down on the drug war, Obama
... lost me and every other Obama supporter in my neck of the woods. Those, that is, that he hadn't already lost by keeping GITMO open, expanding our wars instead of ending them, etc, etc, ad nauseum.

Fooled me once ....
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DeSwiss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #77
83. Exactly
Of Hope and Promises and Trust.....

It has been said that liberals in the Democratic Party are like battered spouses who complain each time they are roundly beaten and abused -- but they keep going back for more. Because.... because where else are they gonna go?

"I will promise you this: that if we haven't gotten our troops out by the time I'm president it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. I will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama, October 27, 2007 (And yet 50,000 http://www.neontommy.com/news/2011/03/us-involvement-iraq-uncompromising-8-years">US troops remain to this day - along with 100,000 civilian http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackwater_Worldwide">"security contractors")

"Close down Guantanamo, restore habeas corpus, say no to renditions, no to wireless wiretaps..." - Barack Obama, November 14, 2007 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detention_camp">Guantanamo is still open, while http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habeas_corpus_in_the_United_States#Suspension_in_the_21st_Century">habeas corpus has been restored by Executive Order, renditions and wireless wiretaps http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/06/16/obama-frodo-give-bush-powers/">continue. In addition, President Obama has given himself the power to assassinate http://ccrjustice.org/learn-more/faqs/kill-lists">a US citizen overseas in the name of national security. )

"When I promise that I... we are going to bring this war in Iraq to a close in 2009, I want the American people to understand that I opposed this war in 2002, 2003, 4, 5, 6 and 7 -- so you can have confidence that I will be serious about ending this war." - Barack Obama, 2008

"Iran, they spend 1/100 of what we spend on the military. Iran, Cuba, Venezuela these countries are tiny compared to the Soviet Union. They don't pose a serious threat to us." - Barack Obama, May 18, 2008

"I think it's time for us to end the embargo on Cuba. I think this because, if you think about what is happening internationally, our planet is shrinking. And our biggest foreign policy challenge -- and it feeds into the battle on terrorism and it feeds into issues of trade and our economy -- is how do you make sure that other countries and developing nations are providing sustenance for their people, human rights for their people and the basic structure of government for their people and are stable and secure so that they can be partners in a bright future for the entire planet." - Barack Obama, 2008

"I've said repeatedly that I intend to close Guantanamo and I will follow through on that. I've said repeatedly that America doesn't torture. And I'm going to make sure we don't torture. Those are part and parcel of an effort to regain America's moral stature in the world." - Barack Obama, 60 Minutes (2008) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detention_camp">Guantanamo is still open, the US is using foreign nations to carry out torture, when it isn't http://news.change.org/stories/un-investigating-bradley-manning-torture-claims">committing it itself.)

"And as President I'm going to make it impossible for Congressmen or lobbyists to slip pork barrel projects or corporate welfare into laws while no one's looking. Because when I'm President meetings where laws are written will be more open to the public - no more secrecy - that's a commitment I make to you as President. When there's a tax bill being debated in Congress, you will know the names of the corporations that would benefit and how much money they would get. And we will put every corporate tax break and every pork barrel project online for every American to see. You'll know who asked for them and you can decide whether your representative is actually representing you." - Barack Obama, 2008 (Caught between their boss’ anti-lobbyist rhetoric and the reality of governing, President Barack Obama’s aides often steer meetings with lobbyists to a complex just off the White House grounds — and several of the lobbyists involved say they believe the choice of venue is no accident. It allows the Obama administration to keep these lobbyist meetings shielded from public view — and out of Secret Service logs kept on visitors to the White House and later released to the public. http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0211/50081.html">link)

"....create jobs building solar panels and wind turbines and the fuel-efficient cars of tomorrow. Jobs that will help us end our dependence on foreign oil and may save the planet in the process. Rebuilding our crumbling roads and schools and bridges...." "....so we can have a new electricity grid and bring renewable energy to population centers here in Indiana and across America. Build an American infrastructure for the 21st century." - Barack Obama, 2008

"....that tired, worn-out old theory that says, that says we should give more to billionaires and big corporations and hope that prosperity will trickle-down on everybody else. The last thing... the last thing we can afford is four more years where no one in Washington is watching anyone on Wall Street because politicians and lobbyists killed common-sense regulations. Those are the theories that got us into this mess. They haven't worked and it is time for change, and that's why I'm running for President of the United States of America." - Barack Obama, 2008

"...bailout Wall Street banks. As President I will insure the financial rescue plan helps stop foreclosures and protects your money, instead of enriching CEOs. And I'll put in place the common-sense regulations that I've been calling for throughout this campaign. So that Wall Street can never cause a crisis like this again. That's the change we need." - Barack Obama, 2008

"It is absolutely true that NAFTA was a mistake." - Barack Obama, 2008

"It's been a long time coming. But tonight, because of what we did on this day, in this election at this defining moment, change has come to America." - Barack Obama, November 4, 2008

All above quotes were excerpted from Barack Obama campaign speeches and interviews as shown in the documentary http://vimeo.com/20355767">"Lifting the Veil: Obama and the Failure of Capitalist Democracy"


***************************************************************************************************


At a news conference Monday in Chile, President Barack Obama stated about his order to fire 110 Tomahawk missiles into Libya: "this was not an attempt at regime change, but a humanitarian effort to save civilian and rebel lives from Gaddafi’s threat to annihilate anyone who threatened his rule." March 21, 2011

"You will have your choice of a number of plans that offer a few different packages, but every plan would offer an affordable, basic package… And I believe one of these options needs to be a public option that will give people a broader range of choices and inject competition into the health care market, so that we can force waste out of the system and keep the insurance companies honest." http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/remarks-president-annual-conference-american-medical-association">~President Barack Obama

“We do not expect harmful levels of radiation to reach the United States, whether it’s the West Coast, Hawaii, Alaska, or U.S. territories in the Pacific. That is the judgment of our Nuclear Regulatory Commission and many other experts.” http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2011/03/17/president-obama-we-will-stand-people-japan">President Barack Obama

Referring to the Bush Administration's use of phone companies to illegally spy on Americans: "We only know these crimes took place because insiders blew the whistle at great personal risk ... Government whistleblowers are part of a healthy democracy and must be protected from reprisal." ~ http://www.commondreams.org/view/2011/01/06-8">Presidential Candidate & U.S. Senator Barack Obama, 2008

"The President does not have the power under the Constitution to unilaterally authorize a military attack in a situation that does not involve stopping an actual or imminent threat to the nation." http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-cost-of-libyan-intervention/2011/03/22/ABYfx8CB_story.html">~Barack Obama, December 2007

"I believe that gay couples deserve the same legal rights as every other couple in this country." - http://www.mercurynews.com/presidentelect/ci_18344166?nclick_check=1">link

"What I'm not going to be doing is using Justice Department resources to try to circumvent state laws on this issue (medical cannabis), simply because I want folks to be investigating violent crimes and potential terrorism." http://reason.com/archives/2011/05/11/false-forbearance">~Barack Obama, 2008


"Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost." ~ John Quincy Adams


DeSwiss
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theFrankFactor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #83
92. Great post!
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DeSwiss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 01:10 AM
Response to Reply #92
112. Danke schoen. :^D
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seafan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #83
106. Stunning compilation. John Quincy Adams has wise advice for us all.
Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost. ---- John Quincy Adams



It is my daily hope that true Democratic principles are never lost in this madness erupting around us.

We must never shield our eyes from the truth, no matter how much it distresses us to look at it.

Thank you for that list, DeSwiss.


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DeSwiss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #106
110. You're welcome.
Someone recently reminded me (concerning John Q's position on the franchise) that while a noble idea, how "impractical" it was in the face of the politics of today. The observer apparently hadn't considered that it may be that "practicality" which we've set as the central focus, may also the cause of many, if not most of our troubles. What ever-else could we expect if we are prepared to so easily abandon our principles? To allow ourselves to be driven backwards from whence we came, instead of moving forward and progressing? Evolving? Which is our supposed hallmark.

They talk of "making deals" with each other. A deal which will save us with more debt for our grandchildren to worry about. While people are in fear for their livelihoods, and more. The Philistines have openly taken control of our government. The masks haven fallen away. They will tell us anything we want to hear to get in, and to remain in power. Once we've put them there, they do the bidding of the paymasters who bankrolled them, and to whom they are beholden.

And here we are.

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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 04:08 AM
Response to Reply #110
139. Thank you, De Swiss.
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DeSwiss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #139
236. You are welcome. n/t
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chill_wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 01:56 AM
Response to Reply #83
115. That is just...painful.
Sorrowfully painful.
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DeSwiss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 02:51 AM
Response to Reply #115
119. The TRUTH is quite often painful.....
...but it can also be liberating. It helps us to ''see'' more clearly.

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swilton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #119
172. I do believe that
and I hope the Democratic Party cuts its losses before it is dragged down...

I would speculate that the 8-10 senators who are working with Bernie Sanders on opposing this + the Progressive Caucus + 70-80% of Americans is a place to start.

I would rather as mentioned here be happier to vote For something/an ideal/ - even if I had to assume a loss in the short term - for a greater value than be forced to vote for something that is false/hypocritical to my beliefs...

The deception here is shameful, shocking and scarey - I would also add to that the hubris or the belief that this can go on and there will be no consequences.
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DeSwiss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #172
222. Unless and until....
...we can rid ourselves of Capitalism then no system we devise will work for long. Based upon the fear of insufficiency and a desire to control, Capitalism is inherently short-sighted and is the epitome of selfishness. Capitalism, the latest iteration of what was once referred to as the monarchy and the system of nobles, is a form of societal cancer. It is a system where one small segment of a society feeds upon others like vampires sucking upon our lifeblood. We've never seemed to learn that for someone to profit under this system, then someone must always be denied -- someone must always go without. And as the greed grows (which it will inevitably do), those "someones" become an ever-expanding group. Until we end up with a handful of people "owning" the bulk of the world's resources. Like where we are right now.

And why? Why do we allow this inequitable system to continue?

- When we can answer that question, maybe we'll be ready to move to the next level in our evolution. However, until we change this system, it will only get worse.


''Ownership" of physical entities by man is untenable in natural law and inherently obstructive to evolution
and realization of the comprehensive emancipation of man.... Only one's own personality and life are ownable.''

~ Richard Buckminster Fuller ~

''I don't understand why we have to pay to live on the planet we were born on. I mean it's such a simple question. But can
anyone answer that? Why does anyone have to pay to live on the planet they were born on? Ask yourself that question. And
who are we actually paying for the privilege to live here? Who decided this? Who made "them" the boss? Who put "them" in-charge?''

~ Alex Collier ~
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 04:07 AM
Response to Reply #83
138. Great post, DeSwiss. Just wonderful.
We are all disappointed.

I have to return to my basic problem with Obama. I am an activist. I walk precincts, table and talk to voters before elections. I cannot do that for Obama. I know that he has accomplished a list of things -- but they aren't the things that matter to me. I would not be able to go out and tell voters what a good job he is doing, how I am so enthusiastic about him. I would be lying.

It's very sad.

I just hope someone else steps up to run. It won't be hard for me to explain to my neighbors why I am asking them to think about voting for a real progressive who can be counted on to fight for the people who live in my area.
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DeSwiss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #138
237. I put that post together.....
...after I couldn't really say what it was that Obama stood for. I had heard the promises and the rhetoric like everyone else, but his actions seemed at odds with what he's said he believed in at the start. And I also became tired of hearing the same kinds of excuses for Obama's behavior as I once heard in reference to George W. Bush by his 23%ers.

Some have accused me of being impractical, of being an idealist, to which I say: "you're damned right I am." Because without idealist we'd never improve, we'd never change, we'd stay stuck right where we are for lack of vision and foresight.


- Which, as I see it, are the main traits Obama lacks and which are a must if one is to be considered a leader.




"Have Lived as an Idealist... Will Die an Idealist. As far as I'm concerned, there was no other way to proceed... reaching for the Stars with my feet deep in the earth's soil." ~Bill Hicks
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woo me with science Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 08:19 AM
Response to Reply #83
145. This should be an OP.
What a stunning and desperately sad post.
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DeSwiss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #145
238. It was.
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woo me with science Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #238
245. Good! Sorry I missed it.
Superb, superb post and OP.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #83
149. DeSwiss...When I watched "Lifting the Veil" months ago..it was heartbreaking the promises broken
Edited on Sun Jul-24-11 08:42 AM by KoKo
and since the video was put together it has only gotten worse to see the decline of the Democratic Party's values.

I posted it in April here in Editorials and it stayed up almost a month before it was moved to the "9/11 Forum." :eyes: Anyway thanks for quoting it and giving a link. Hopefully others will watch this an understand how Progressives and the Left ...defeat themselves.
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swilton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #149
171. Thanks for the referral - I will watch it
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #171
241. If you find it interesting...please pass it along......n/t
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DeSwiss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #149
239. I really think it's odd there is even such a thing as a 9/11 "conspiracy" forum....
...here at DU, because it's like a ghetto has been created for people who think outside the box. Particularly when it's most often the people who think outside the box who are the ones who create anything of value.

- And you're right, that video is telling for anyone who loves the TRUTH.

"'Conspiracy stuff' is now shorthand for unspeakable truth." ~Gore Vidal




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green917 Donating Member (124 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 08:42 AM
Response to Reply #83
150. +1,000,000,000
Well said & referenced. Anyone who still has hope that this brand of "change we can believe in" was ever anything other than a means to rob us blind is deluded on a level that defies comprehension.
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DeSwiss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #150
240. Thank you. n/t
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Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #83
192. What an incredibly depressing list.
:(
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TeaBagsAreForCups Donating Member (320 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 08:25 PM
Response to Original message
78. K/R. Excellent Post...
...+100!

Thanks.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 08:26 PM
Response to Original message
79. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
leeroysphitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 08:55 PM
Response to Original message
82. Pony. n/t
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 09:17 PM
Response to Original message
84. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-11 10:38 PM
Response to Original message
104. thank you, seafan. REC. nt
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bobdawg Donating Member (48 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 12:09 AM
Response to Original message
109. throwing away?
or just doing what he was hired to do?

:shrug:
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Kablooie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 01:23 AM
Response to Original message
113. If he throws it away the only team around to catch it is the Republicans.
Which would mean they have won.
A new extremist Republican president will surely work hard to eliminate everything we know as America .

Bye Bye Miss American Pie.

Hello hell, oh!
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grahamhgreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 01:26 AM
Response to Original message
114. But he will always be invited to the billionaires parties! I got to see a billionaires yacht,
In Cannes recently.

It looked like an ocean liner and had a hatch that opened on the side and revealed a dock for docking small yachts.
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 02:55 AM
Response to Original message
120. Yes. Obama has failed.
And failed on so many things.

We just have to find a real Democrat to vote for in 2012.

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grovernerdquist Donating Member (5 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 02:58 AM
Response to Original message
121. But I won't be
voting for Michelle Migraine or Brainwashed Romney.
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blkmusclmachine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 03:03 AM
Response to Original message
123. I can't help think that this was the plan.
1 term only.
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FreeBillClinton Donating Member (222 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 03:40 AM
Response to Original message
129. I'd rather fight against Republicans destroying our safety net
Than be forced to watch a Democrat destroy everything the Democratic party stands for.

Democrats have no reason to act as Democrats if we just vote for them automatically as the lesser of evils. Why should they not suck up to corporate money if we vote for them anyway. They can have their cake and eat it too.
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swilton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #129
166. I've thought all along that the DADT repeal was one
mechanism to divide the left - The cuts to health care was another and there are likely others.

Although I worry (per history) if there is a split in the Democratic Party over this - I can't see that there won't be.

But we have historical hindsight to instruct us as well as the fact that technology enables us in ways that decades ago it would impede social transformations. In other countries, in the past decade progressive candidates have garnered over entrenched tyrants in places such as Bolivia and other countries in Latin America. Oliver Stone made a documentary about this called South of the Border.

A split in the Democratic Party over this could be for the better - I could get around a champion like Bernie Sanders who in interviews this past week said that he was working with a group of 8-10 other senators. You take this group of 'challengers' (liberal is too fuzzy a word now) and add that to the House Progressive Caucus....and the 70-80% of the population that is opposed to cuts in SS/Medicare/Medicaid... that could be the start of a movement.

I speak for many of us that would rather be voting FOR something/someone/an ideal - rather than voting for a candidate who is just slightly less worse than his opponent.
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 03:47 AM
Response to Original message
132. with high unemployment we should be LOWERING the age people start collecting SS so they get out of
the workforce and make room for younger people.

There are negotiations and then there is the other side bringing up ideas that you need to respond to with ''Are you a fucking idiot?''
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swilton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 09:09 AM
Response to Reply #132
162. Older people are getting out of the work force
and it's not by choice.
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-25-11 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #162
252. that happened to my wife's dad. His company had to lay off most of their workers
when he was around 60, and he wasn't exactly in demand elsewhere.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #132
165. If Obama proposed that, you'd say he was trying to make the
statistics say unemployment was lower, that those at that age still needed a full salary and that he was selling them out.
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-25-11 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #165
251. who said they would HAVE to retire?
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guruoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 04:23 AM
Response to Original message
140. You mean you're on a tear, as in to 'tear apart'? nt
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whathappened Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 07:02 AM
Response to Original message
142. note to self ,
don't forget to show up for job interveiw i found in the rich section of the news paper , oh i forgot , the whole paper is the rich section , they need 20 thousand new shoe shine boys , i can't walk real good , i can report for work in my fooking wheel chair , fuckers
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 09:03 AM
Response to Original message
156. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
swilton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #156
167. Throw in nepotism along with that
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 09:03 AM
Response to Original message
157. This is dramatics worthy of Republicans
Why are they not throwing themselves away? Why do people always blame the President?

This is really a rotten thing to see on a Democratic Board.

The POTUS is holding out for tax revenues. Yet that is never mentioned here. The Rs will say Boner gave away the store if he agrees on that at all.

This post is as biased against the President, without considering both sides, as any Freeper post could be. It sucks to see people falling for this anti-Democratic agenda.
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robdogbucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #157
229. I am really tired of this rhetoric, propaganda and shilling though
“Why are they not throwing themselves away? Why do people always blame the President?”

(Straw man. People don’t always blame the president. We do get sick of learning time and time again that he has this tendency to compromise in only one direction though. For your apparent purposes though, I understand why you chose this point to begin your diatribe)



“This is really a rotten thing to see on a Democratic Board.”

(Really? Criticism of a president taking actions that potentially completely ruin the New Deal safety nets is rotten?)



“The POTUS is holding out for tax revenues. Yet that is never mentioned here. The Rs will say Boner gave away the store if he agrees on that at all.”

(Really? Where is HIS commission to study how to repeal Tax Cuts?)



“This post is as biased against the President, without considering both sides, as any Freeper post could be. It sucks to see people falling for this anti-Democratic agenda.”

(Your post is biased for this president, without even considering the creep of his so-called missions. To compare this honest dissension on this thread and criticism of this president’s actions, with the likes of that can only mean you have not read that website. 150 pages praising Anders Bievik? I would say that people fell for this president’s bob and weave and lost sight of his actions, which are decidedly anti-Democratic and anti-New Deal, but very pro Neocon and Freidmanesque.)





I say primary him or let him have the decency to step aside and allow a real Democrat to lead us out of this morass.

He can always find work with Goldman-Sucks or with Excelon and Entergy Corp. now though. Just look at Tony Blair.






Just my dos centavos

rdb


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woo me with science Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 09:10 AM
Response to Original message
163. K&R He is throwing away our future with both hands. nt
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 09:32 AM
Response to Original message
168. Here:
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JoePhilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 09:37 AM
Response to Original message
170. "... this presidency is finished."
quick ... some one get the fainting couch!!
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Overseas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 10:00 AM
Response to Original message
173. It does seem like that.
Stomping on your base doesn't seem like an effective means of securing reelection.

Even with the bizarre polling among propagandized voters who "can't stand the partisanship in Washington." The President already has enough evidence, in the healthcare capitulation, to prove he is the Reasonable One.

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The Wizard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 10:15 AM
Response to Original message
174. Obama proving the President doesn't matter
The Koch Brothers Nazi conspiracy runs the country. The only thing that will bring change is riots that threaten to bring the Koch/Bush cartel and their ilk to summary justice. Scaffolds: If we build them, they will come, albeit in chains. France of 1789 is beginning to look civilized.
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snappyturtle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 10:37 AM
Response to Original message
178. Regretably for us I think the gist of the OP is correct. I have to wonder
if the President isn't content with one term. He may be.
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Jim_Shorts Donating Member (355 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 10:41 AM
Response to Original message
180. The US government is completely and utterly broken (unless your rich)
We have the richest country in the world and we we can't afford healthcare for our citizens but we can spend almost 60% of our non entitlement $ on tanks and ships. Our navy alone is bigger than the the next 13 navy's combined.

We have a self imposed debt ceiling crisis and to fix it we are going to cut spending for the sick, poor, elderly, food inspection, worker safety, environment and more. (this has to be a repugs wet dream)

Unregulated to big to fail banks destroyed millions of jobs in the blink of a eye, so the solution: give them taxpayer $ so they can get bigger yet.

To get reelected Obama has to collect 1 billion (thats 1 billion with a B) in campaign contributions. Good luck to him on that endeavor with 18% real unemployment and cuts to SS and medicare.

I would like to list Obamas broken campaign promises here, but it might prove easier to list the ones he hasn't broken.

completely FUBAR
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Ed Suspicious Donating Member (336 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 10:44 AM
Response to Original message
181. My nutjob anti immigration, anti obama, pro military, hard core
teahadist sister posted on facebook throwing her hands in the air over Obama and his using the elderly as political pawns as he works to dismantle social security.

If this sentiment is coming from where she sits... I don't know what to say anymore.
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polichick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 10:58 AM
Response to Original message
182. I feel sorry for him because he's his own worst enemy - much worse than Republicans.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #182
230. And they've been disgusting to him, since before he was elected. n/t
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99th_Monkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 11:57 AM
Response to Original message
190. Obama's throwing himself under the bus for the Banksters. Too sad really. nt
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jimlup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 12:23 PM
Response to Original message
195. yep... nt
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mother earth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 12:38 PM
Response to Original message
198. The GOP must secretly love him, he's continued BushCo policy&
has abandoned his base and its core values. It gives me no pleasure whatsoever to witness these times.

Imagine what could've been accomplished with his initial momentum and support, had he truly held progressive values? Sure, everyone says he was always a centrist, but his presidency is actually going beyond abandoning democratic core values and has been working steadily toward helping the right in their class warfare.

Apparently, swindling this nation and taxpayers has not been enough for corporate profits, they want everything privatized so they can rape and pillage until nothing is left.

"Inside Job" & Naomi Klein's Shock Doctrine are in full force....still we look look for the silver lining, instead of the union label. Wake up, there's no room for DINO, not in this war.
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
199. I believe his 'deal'
with TPTB was ONE TERM....that's all that was needed to turn us into a 3rd world nation.

May the Mayans and Hopis be correct....the paradigm will shift soon. May Mother Earth shake the Rich Leeches from her body.
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WiffenPoof Donating Member (676 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 12:59 PM
Response to Original message
202. Geeze...Doesn't ANYONE here understand...
...that putting these entitlements on the table in the first place was the real mistake. I mean there are some here that are still under the impression that the President will "smooth things over."

When you put into the minds of the body politic and the American people that these entitlements are to "at least be looked at," you have essentially made it a bargaining chip for the future. Even if entitlements were not touched, the damage has been done...by a Dem President. Anytime in the future when issues of budget or finance are being discussed, someone is going to bring up the fact that these entitlements were once on the table...why not again.

I have no words to express my disgust in this president. Everything that we are as Democrats is wrapped up in the New Deal...the most successful and compassionate piece of legislation in the American history. The very idea that the New Deal could be dismantled under the guise of political compromise is completely insane.

-P
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #202
206. "the New Deal...the most successful and compassionate piece of legislation in the American history"
absolutely right on!
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Agony Donating Member (865 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #202
224. I am in Full agreement. I cannot see any rational for having put SS/M/M on the table
other than if he ultimately sees SS/M/M a expendable or to be flipped over to corporations for profit taking.
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woo me with science Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #202
247. Exactly. He has utterly poisoned the Democratic message,
and we will suffer from this for years to come.
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JJW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 02:18 PM
Response to Original message
220. SS is not entitlements
It is like insurance, that we all pay into. This is our money, not the governments!
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NaturalHigh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-25-11 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #220
253. I wish more people understood that!
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orbitalman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
221. K & R
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pam4water Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 02:38 PM
Response to Original message
225. Sad part is the stupid sheepeople who listen to MSM will vote for in 2012.
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NOLALady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 03:39 PM
Response to Original message
234. And the American people
will get the President that they deserve.
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AsahinaKimi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-11 08:35 PM
Response to Original message
248. I refuse to
Vote for any Republican...ever.
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