"Like wiping out... every single person attending this year's Netroots Nation. Twice."

[Hissyspit]

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/07/23/997883/-Norway-attacker-was-a-political-Terminator

Norway attacker was a political Terminator

SAT JUL 23, 2011 AT 05:59 PM EDT

by David Waldman

- snip -

And we're in need of analogies here, because we don't really have anything like this here in the United States, which also makes it difficult to appreciate the scale of the potential losses. Eighty or more lives taken translates anywhere, of course. Eighty or more young people, all the more. But it's more than that. It's 80 or more of the country's most politically engaged young people, self-selected from the ranks of a single political party. In a country of just 4.9 million, that's an enormous loss. Strictly by the numbers, the ratio to the population of the United States suggests it'd be like the wiping out of over 5,000 activists from, say, OFA or DFA. Or, I guess, every single person attending this year's Netroots Nation. Twice.

Only even there the comparison is inadequate. As committed as the activists of OFA or DFA (or pick your favorite group here) are, neither organization has the relationship to the Democratic Party that the AUF did. A quick glance at and a few clicks through the names of the previous AUF leaders illustrates pretty clearly that it's a pretty direct pipeline into national elected office in Norway. And Utoya was where they gathered:

- snip -

Taking out 80+ of the people committed enough to go to the AUF's Utoya summer retreat? That's like sending a Terminator back in time to take out a future Parliamentary leadership.

- snip -

It did. But it didn't really describe the magnitude of the loss for Norway. Nor did it convey the calculated sickness—and the very, very intensely political nature—of what the gunman undertook to do.

MORE

[Hissyspit]

1. From the comments:

"His goal was total anhiliation of the labour party (2+ / 0-)

that is the only logical conclusion you can draw from his actions.

He sets off the bombs in Oslo, that takes care of the current leaders (or would have, if he had timed it right and all of the explosives went off- it was certainly his intent)

Then, he goes to this youth camp- and he knows this is one of the few times that he will have this kind of opportunity, with all of the future labour party members and leaders in one place- and shoots them like fish in a barrell.

This wasn't as much an act of terrorism IMO than it was an act of political ethnic cleansing."

[aquart]

3. I agree.

[eShirl]

4. exactly

[OneGrassRoot]

7. Wow. :( n/t

[Scuba]

8. You are correct, and your message needs to be heard. Please consider it as an OP. thx

[myrna minx]

19. Wow.

:-(

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. Damn had not thought about it that way

[Hissyspit]

5. kick nt

[Hissyspit]

6. "This wasn't as much an act of terrorism IMO than it was an act of political ethnic cleansing."

[theaocp]

9. k&r

Scary shit.

[malaise]

10. Yep this was my view from Friday

Wipe out Labour

[Horse with no Name]

11. Very much akin to one of these idiots taking a submachine gun

to the Democratic National Convention.

[jpak]

12. They're Heee-rrrrre

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=387436&mesg_id=387436

[Hissyspit]

13. Have you sen the photos of the alleged Oslo shooter in his military wetsuit?

[jpak]

15. Yup - very stylish those Scandinavians

stylish gun too

not

[WilliamPitt]

14. Marked for later.

[scarletwoman]

16. My 84-year old, lifelong liberal, union member, WWII vet, Dem voter, full-blooded Norwegian ancestry

dad was full of disgust and contempt yesterday over the slaughter on the island. He kept asking what the hell was wrong with all those people on the island that they ran like frightened sheep instead of someone/anyone attempting to stop the gunman.

I said, "Dad, probably no one in the camp had a gun." Dad said, "So what? There are other ways of overpowering a shooter. They were a bunch of cowards who couldn't think of anything to do except run away."

I stopped engaging him at that point because I was so shocked and angry, plus I was working hard on cooking supper for him, my sister, and me.

I mostly thought that my dad was so harsh in his reaction in large part because he has always been so proud of his Norwegian heritage. He felt ashamed of his kin for not making better account of themselves.

He'll be 85 in August. His wife of 61 years, my and my sisters' mother, died in September 2008. He's gotten old and forgetful and cranky. (And utterly fed up with the Democratic party, btw - he still follows politics closely, as he's done all his life.)

Anyway, when he said these things yesterday I simply couldn't process it. My first thought was, "Oh dear, he's really going over the edge." And I made a feeble attempt at talking him down.

Now it's the day after and what he said has been gnawing at me all night and morning.

And now I'm thinking that he had a good point, that he's not just a contrary old man edging toward being no longer in full control of his mental faculties.

What sort of future leaders are those who apparently have no capacity for taking positive action when confronted by a determined foe?

sw

[malaise]

18. They were 13 - 19 years old

and they grew up in a society that is not accustomed to attacks like these.

[scarletwoman]

20. Yes, I said the same thing to my dad.

[PassingFair]

21. Then why ask those questions?

An island full of children and a ridiculously
armed killer dressed as a policeman, and you
ask why they didn't mount an effective defense?

:crazy:

On edit:

Please be assured that, in fact, your father is

"...just a contrary old man edging toward being no longer in full control of his mental faculties."
(And perhaps you have been spending too much time with him.)

I hope no Norwegians see your post.

[indurancevile]

22. uh, they're children.

[Hissyspit]

23. Almost assuredly some DID try to stop him and died trying.

There is no reason to give serious credence to what your father said. He was frustrated in HIS powerlessness to stop this.

[scarletwoman]

24. Thank you. I really appreciate your response.

What my dad said really bothered me. What you said, "He was frustrated in HIS powerlessness to stop this." makes the most sense. His anger was a cover for his hurt.

Thank you again,
sw

[Major Hogwash]

26. It was a natural reaction to the insanity that took place.

Most WWII veterans know what that level of insanity is about because they witnessed it first hand when they were in that war.
Your father was probably experiencing a bout with PTSD, also.
Especially due to his close ties to Norway.
It's not just an emotional tie like that which connects him to the situation that happened in Norway, but a very complex set of personal experiences that all come together all at once for no apparent reason.

News like this causes people who have gone through traumatic experiences to think about their own time in similar situations.
Veterans are especially vulnerable to it because they don't just think about it, they "relive" it, as if they instantly traveled back in time and space and are back to the days when they faced horrific dangerous situations.

The idea of overpowering a gunman sounds plausible at first until you have to face it yourself in real life.
In your father's case, he probably did just that, and so he has a hard time understanding why other people don't react the same way.

The "fight or flight" response to danger is our most basic instinct for survival.
Several rotten discussions have taken place at the DU forum about it over the years and it never seems to sink in that some people do not react well to extreme levels of danger like what the people experienced in Norway this last week.

Psychologists have stated for dozens of years that even the same people will react differently to different situations in their own lifetimes, depending on what they were doing when the situation occurred.

As a soldier fighting in a war, the soldier would come to expect a high level of danger on a daily basis.

Being a child, however, the kids would never dream of something like this happening in their own hometown.
Children are not trained or educated about such high levels of danger that can occur like this, because we would raise an entire generation of paranoid adults if we told them what was possible "out there", in the real world.

But, this nutjob in Norway, is every parent's worst nightmare, a crazy man hellbent on destroying so many lives for nothing.

Your father will soon come to realize that the situation was insane over time, and then maybe he will even agree that young children are not able to defend themselves when faced with a crazed armed madman.
But, his first reaction is perfectly normal given his experience as a veteran.
In my opinion, anyway.

My dad was the same way as yours, always thinking that we should react like Superman, and go solve horrific crimes or go after the bad men all of the time.
That's how he raised us 3 boys and yet my brothers are more passive than a library technician now as a result.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

28. Yes, according to the news reports here (I'm in Oslo now)

At least one young woman tried to talk the shooter down and ended up being killed.

[kestrel91316]

30. You expect terrified CHILDREN to attack a man who is mowing them

down with multiple guns??

Somebody has been watching too much Hollywood dreck.

[cascadiance]

17. I wonder if we NOW can force Peter King to have hearings on RIGHT WING terrorism!

That has been shown so heavily to be as big or bigger than Islamic terrorism on a global scale now with what happened here.

Would be good to try and force his hand. If he doesn't have them, then we can call him a partisan terrorist lover, and not a politician that is truly just against the act itself.

[Hissyspit]

25. He is such an asshole.

And, yeah, so proactive counter-framing would be nice for a change.

[indurancevile]

27. i don't for a minute believe the guy was just some 'lone nut', either.

[yurbud]

29. at first that title sounded like an insult, like only 40 people showed up at the Netroots convention

but the story was deadly serious.