As one Obama support to another

[rufus dog]

Post stating that X would suck worse, or he didn't have any other choice, only go so far when people are ready for a brawl.

The extension of the Bush tax cuts was strike one for me, a debt deal without increased taxes is strike two. Now I personally would be hit with increased taxes but sometimes you have to do the right thing and take on the bully. Backing down a second time is inexcusable.

[BzaDem]

1. Perhaps. But the correct solution is to continue to encourage people to be rational -- not to

embrace irrationality.

[sabrina 1]

3. I agree, and even talking about cutting SS, Medicaid and Medicare

is embracing irrationality.

[Fumesucker]

4. Yeah, but it is rational to try and deal with an irrational system in a rational way?

Our system of government seems to become more irrational by the day, that irrationality driven to a large extent by a foreign propaganda machine of immense power and tenaciousness.

[BzaDem]

5. Sure, unless you believe dealing with it in an irrational way will somehow work to anyone's benefit.

When I say rational, I merely mean trying to maximize benefit and minimize damage.

I don't think it helps to try to minimize benefit and maximize damage. I am not talking about the "system" -- I am talking about each of our individual actions as a voter.

[Fumesucker]

9. How do you deal with an irrational system in a rational way?

I'd personally be a lot better off if I didn't give a the slightest damn about all this political crap, it's ruined my life in some very important ways, I wish I could look away and just ignore it, not just a low-information voter, a no-information voter.

[rufus dog]

6. when dealing with irrational opponents

you sometimes have to be irrational.

Remember the old "Chicago way?!"

If the other side continues to be irrational and you continue to be rational then you are playing into their strength. Thus the Chicago way, if they are bat shit crazy and kill one, you kill two.

You can't win by playing by the rules if the other side refuses to accept the rules.

[Fumesucker]

10. Yep, the other team is playing Calvinball...

And we're going by the Marquess of Queensbury rules..

A recipe for getting endlessly rolled.

[girl gone mad]

11. Exactly. So why push hysteria and stock market panic and dollar collapse..

in an effort to force negotiation on a bad deal, and why has Treasury refused to come forward with a 'plan B'?

The kabuki theater we've seen over the last few weeks in an attempt to stir up irrationality and cram bad policy down our throats is beyond the pale, even by the cynical standards of Washington.

[emulatorloo]

13. It isn't "Kabuki Theater.". The House Tea-Party members are not play-acting.

They are True Believers on a mission. They are irrational, and they are the reason we are in this situation.

If Dems still had control of the House, Pelosi would have gotten a clean bill to raise the debt ceiling through the House with ease. we would not be having this conversation.

Unfortunately, the 2010 election results filled the House with irrational ideologues. A lot of DU'ers warned of and predicted the consequences of a Tea Party controlled House. Turns out they were correct.

[TreasonousBastard]

15. Absolutely-- and that's what scares me. Eventually, the adults will come back...

and take care of things, but just as with that last asshole in the White House, what damage will they cause while they are playing out their fantasies...

[girl gone mad]

16. There aren't enough of them to have an impact.

Sorry, I don't buy it.

Treasury made every effort to save Wall Street. Never once did I hear Obama call for "shared sacrifice" from the criminal bankers while Bernanke and Geithner were shoveling trillions into their coffers.

If our government lets the economy burn, that will have been their choice, and all of them, not just the tea partiers, deserve blame for acting irresponsibly.

If Obama pushes through cuts to SS, he will deserve the massive backlash he's going to get for unnecessarily causing severe economic damage and pain.

We all know Washington wants to use this crisis as an excuse for further looting of the middle class. They're just desperate not to have to own up to their actions.

[Phlem]

12. Question,

Who's definition of irrational are we using these days, your's, mine, someone else's?

And to be honest with you, I know some fucking irrational, "rational" people.

Where is the line drawn?

:crazy:

-p

[lonestarnot]

2. K & R!

Somebody already unrec'd.

[dennis4868]

7. we have a debt deal?

and the final debt deal includes no increase of taxes...fuck you Obama! wait a minute, this just in, there is no final deal yet....hmmmmm....Like I said, DU is the place for HYPERSPECULATION!

[patrice]

8. Agree. & . . .

Pelosi helped create this situation. I like her, but that vote to extend only the MC tax breaks fucked up a bunch of stuff, including the senates chance to retire the upper-class tax cuts. If I were her, I'd be SERIOUSLY looking at whoever it was that I was listening to at the time, but it would have helped quite a bit if there had been some leadership from the President at the right time back then.

[ProfessionalLeftist]

14. Obama isn't backing down. He's not "caving". HE wants to cut SS and Medicare.

It comes to a point that this stuff happens so often you figure out that he WANTS it this way. He's not 'caving'. The 'big deal' is HIS idea! HE was the one holding out for it! Yes, the Tealiban are guilty of refusing to raise taxes too. But Obama's record on Democratic principles and protecting the interests of the American people over big business and Wall St. is frankly, dismal.

Thus, Bernie Sanders - who actually REPRESENTS MY INTERESTS in Washington, gets my vote in 2012.