Norway massacre exposes incendiary immigration issue

[AlphaCentauri]

Source: Reuters

Norwegian Anders Behring Breivik said he killed 93 people to spark a "revolution" against the multiculturalism he believed was sapping Europe's heritage, and experts say a frank debate about immigration may be the best way to prevent similar explosions of violence.

In some Nordic countries, and elsewhere in Europe, political parties have fed on rising public concern over immigration as economic conditions worsen and a drip-feed of Islamist attacks stokes fear and suspicion of new arrivals.

But experts argue overly aggressive political rhetoric and scare tactics have inflamed passions rather than address the many complex, underlying problems.

Conflicting messages and political squeamishness in tackling immigration and multiculturalism have frustrated the public and given space for hardline ideologues, they say.

"If the twin attacks in Norway fail to trigger an honest discussion of the issue, exposing often scare-mongering arguments used by the extreme right, this may marginalise the radical groups and worsen the situation, which in turn could bring more similar attacks in the future," said Lilit Gevorgyan, Europe analyst at the IHS Global Insight think-tank.



Read more: http://in.reuters.com/article/2011/07/25/idINIndia-58427720110725

[fujiyama]

1. I think Western nations

have dropped the ball in recent years with far right extremist and xenophobic groups. What we're facing is a backlash to tolerance and inclusion - similar strains of which we find in militant Islam. These are clearly two sides of the same coin...Both sides (RW naionalism and militant Islam) are fighting a more integrated and globalized world and are finding supported in the millions that have not benefited from these developments over the last twenty years in particular. Of course, in Europe you have a peculiar situation with an acceptance of a large number of immigrants, some of whom are hostile to the liberal culture of their adopted homelands. Of course, at the same time some of these countries have made a poor effort of integrated and assimilating these newcomers into society.

Either way, I agree that this situation should spark a frank discussion on Europe's immigration policies - because I don't believe what happened in Norway couldn't happen elsewhere in the US, Europe, or other western nations, which have become increasingly diverse over the years.

[AlphaCentauri]

13. It's been happening in the US

There's no doubt that the tone of the raging national debate over immigration is growing uglier by the day. Once limited to hard-core white supremacists and a handful of border-state extremists, vicious public denunciations of undocumented brown-skinned immigrants are increasingly common among supposedly mainstream anti-immigration activists, radio hosts and politicians. While their dehumanizing rhetoric typically stops short of openly sanctioning bloodshed, much of it implicitly encourages or even endorses violence by characterizing immigrants from Mexico and Central America as "invaders," "criminal aliens" and "cockroaches."



http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2007/winter/immigration-backlash

[JCMach1]

2. I have been poopoo'd in the past, but on my trips to Europe in recent years (even among liberal

friends) there was an undertone of anti-immigrant back-lash.

The attacks were a reflection of what is going on in the greater society.

This is definitely NOT just limited to Norway.

[Peace Patriot]

3. I loathe flabby-brained prognostications like this from the corpo-fascist press.

Rotters is a lying, propagandistic shill for corporate looters, banksters and war profiteers, including "national security" leeches who stand to benefit from the cold-blooded murder of 80 children.

There is no "lesson" to be learned from this horror, except that the super-rich have ripped western civilization to shreds, with their unsconscionable greed, their unconscionable oil wars, their unconscionable ravaging of poor peoples throughout the world, and now their rape and ruin of the very countries, workforces and peoples who paid for their corporate building blocks with blood, sweat, tears.

Brievek is a direct product of their greed, their propaganda and their diabolical war machine.

What message did the slaughter of a hundred thousand innocent Muslims in Iraq send?

Violence pays! And the more massive and the more vicious the violence is, the more it pays.

This is the result of the war on Iraq.

This is the result of the horrendous, on-going war on Afghanistan.

This is the result of the bombing of Libya.

This is the result of torture, assassination, unjust imprisonment and egregious violations of international law.

This is the result of black ops, war and centuries of corporate looting of the Middle East, Africa and Asia.

This is the result of CORPORATE propaganda against Leftists, from Rotters, from the Associated Pukes, from the Wall Street Urinal, from the London and New York Slimes, from Faux News, from CBS-NBC-ABC-CNN, from the BBCons and every damned 'news' outlet on Corporate Earth.

Some "little Hitler" comes along and puffs himself up with his "grand plan" for ethnic cleansing of Europe and this, too--THIS, TOO!--the cold-blooded slaughter of 80 children gathered for leadership training at Labour party summer camp--can be used to distract, to misdirect and to pontificate to the 'huddled masses."

There is no dialogue needed. Bust the banksters. Bust the multinational corporations. Bust the super-rich. Bust their war machine. And there is plenty for everybody including for all the displaced people, immigrants and colonial victims that these super-rich bastards have created.

Put the blame where it belongs! Brievek is a direct product of the "divide and conquer" war being waged by corporations and war profiteers on poor people everywhere.

We don't need some sniveling "think tank" to understand it. We don't need some incoherent drivel from Rotters-selected "experts"!

Follow the money!

And then let's make them give it all back!

[Bragi]

5. "There is no dialogue needed" -- Sorry, wrong answer /nt

[Peace Patriot]

10. You don't understand what I'm saying. I have warned people NOT to use Brievek's horror

to shut other people up. There are people with sincere concerns, unconnected to racism, about immigration impacts on European culture and democracy. And there are people--not a majority--but many, who hold "Christian conservative" views who would be, and I'm sure are, horrified by these killings. It is unfair and wrong to blame them or throw Brievik at them when they try to express their views.

So basically I agree with what the "experts" who are being consulted in this article have to say--that it would be a bad thing if Brievik's horror was used to shut people up.

What I object to is Rotters' HYPOCRISY. THEIR corporate/war profiteer propaganda has greatly contributed to the very displacement/immigration crisis that is being discussed, and to these countries' financial difficulties.

It is not ROTTERS' place to hypocritically call for "dialogue" about a problem that THEY helped create, and it is a bald-faced lie that THAT is the reason they want rightwing views to be tolerated.

I genuinely don't think that a "dialogue" would be needed if the corporate/bankster/war profiteer bastards running things had NOT created vast displacement in the Middle East and other regions. And I don't think that a "dialogue" about "immigration" will address the REAL problem.

If someone GENUINE wants to have a "dialogue," fine. I think the discussion needs to be about who owns all the resources, land and wealth--ripped off from these other regions, in often horrible ways, with this vast theft and violence now being used to impoverish us as well.

"Immigration" is a DISTRACTION issue, in my opinion. Typical "divide and conquer." That is NOT what we need to be talking about.

[Warren Stupidity]

8. Norway's HUGH Immigration problem:

population 95% native norwegian, 80% one religious denomination (lutheran). Norway is frequently chosen as a good site for various medical research projects because of its massive homogeneity.

Yes rightwing idiocy is on the rise in europe as in the us as in the rest of the planet it seems. An enlightened progressive and liberal worldview is under global assault, aided and abetted by a global corporate elite who view these people as useful tools.

[malaise]

4. No it doesn't - it exposes the success of the racist media in feeding

in feeding the beast and promoting Bushco's war on terror. Take a good look at a statistical breakdown of the number of immigrants in Europe. They remain a tiny minority.

[War Horse]

6. Please have a look at this post/article

(cached) at Gates of Vienna. http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:FEDbYlKAr30J:gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2009/11/coming-crash.html+http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2009/11/coming-crash.html&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&source=www.google.com

It's a perfect example of Breivik's ideology, the "two minutes to midnight" urgency that this line of thinking expresses.

IMO this is a big part of what we're dealing with here.

[Bragi]

7. Then try to find a site with a left-wing take on immigration issues

My guess is you won't find a left-wing site that actually discusses immigration and concerns that people have regarding it.

Which raises the question, why is it that?

I mean, one would expect that the left has something to say on these issues and concerns beyond angrily condemning anyone who expresses any such concerns as being a racist, bigot, Islamophobe, etc.?

And given the continued surge in support at the polls for anti-immigrant right-wing parties in Europe, why is the left unable to admit that the tactic of dismissal and condemnation isn't working, why don't we actually take on and counter the right-wing, anti-immigrant ideology?

[Warren Stupidity]

9. Here: one world with labor as free as capital.

One set of rules and regulations for everyone. No more gaming nation-states to play one set of captive peasants off against another.

[pampango]

11. "one world with labor as free as capital". Liberals have made that work in Europe, but here....

I think that many liberals still look at the nation-state as a potential (if not actual) protector for labor rather than as an impediment to its freedom of movement. You could certainly argue that the nation-state has proven not to be a protector of labor at all in our recent history but the hope lives on.

That potential solution to the problem of the "freedom" of capital juxtaposed with the "serfdom" of labor is to try to restrict the use of capital on the basis of the nation-state so that both capital and labor are tied to each individual country. The liberal "European" solution of freeing both capital and labor from national boundaries is not a very popular one on either the left or the right here.

[Warren Stupidity]

14. what liberals? They have been out of power since 1980.

The collapse of a progressive liberal voice in washington is complete. There is only the corruption of corporate free-market fundamentalism.

[Romulox]

16. Europe is in economic shambles. Hope this helps. nt

[Warren Stupidity]

17. EU 2011 gdp est at 2.5% US at 2.3%

So I guess this 'shambles' the EU is in is equivalent to the shambles we are in.

[Romulox]

21. Neither one of those rates of growth is sufficient to meet our commitments.

"So I guess this 'shambles' the EU is in is equivalent to the shambles we are in."

In fact, the two are directly related.

[Warren Stupidity]

23. They might be related but they have nothing at all to do with immigration.

Your implication that EU immigration policy is to blame for the 'shambles' is nonsense.

[Romulox]

25. It's the end-game of globalism/neo-liberalism. Immigration is an EFFECT, not a direct CAUSE

"Your implication that EU immigration policy is to blame for the 'shambles' is nonsense."

I made no such implication--in fact, this is nothing more than your inference. Neo-liberlism/globalism, however, is most definitely the source of the problem. :hi:

[pampango]

18. They've got their problems. Who doesn't? But Europeans are still better off than Americans.

If you think their safety net is now worse than ours, their health care now worse than ours, their taxes now more regressive than ours, their unions now weaker than ours, their distribution of income and wealth now worse than ours, you're welcome to your opinion.

It serves some to portray European "socialism" as a disaster compared to the US' hyper-capitalism.

[Romulox]

20. The argument is that your utopian brand of globalism is unsustainable

Nice attempt to deflect, however.

"If you think their safety net is now worse than ours"

Nonsense. However, austerity measures will guarantee that their safety net is about to get a whole lot worse than it was when compared to its recent past. Cheap labor/globalism is killing Europe! :hi:

[pampango]

28. "Cheap labor/globalism is killing Europe!" In your view that's been happening since 1958

with the creation of the European Economic Community which became the European Union in 1993 and with the signing of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Agreement">Schengen Agreement in 1985.

Too much travel, immigration and trade has been killing Europe for a long time, right? That make it quite impressive that, despite 53 years of "slow death", Europe has become a progressive place compared to the good ol' USA and compared to the good ol' days of nationalistic intra-European border controls and tariffs.

We agree that things are getting worse there (and here) in many ways due to the economic crisis and the right wing's astute use of it to stoke fear and gain political power as a result.

[Romulox]

30. You have trouble articulating your own view. How dare you describe my views to me?

"Too much travel, immigration and trade has been killing Europe for a long time, right? That make it quite impressive that, despite 53 years of "slow death", Europe has become a progressive place compared to the good ol' USA and compared to the good ol' days of nationalistic intra-European border controls and tariffs. "

What are you talking about? In 2011, Europe has been rocked by a serious economic crisis. Your ignorance of same is breathtaking, quite frankly!

[LeftishBrit]

33. 'Liberals have made that work in Europe'.

No, they have not, I'm afraid. Firstly, Europe is by no means under consistently liberal/left government. Many governments are Conservative. While some of the latter are still liberal by American standards, quite a few aren't.

Secondly, free migration of labour has *not* worked all that well. It has often been used by businesses to drive down labour costs, and is perceived by many as adding to unemployment problems in those countries that attract a lot of immigrants. With more regulation of employment practices it might have worked better, but it does not work well now. Of course, the problems caused by free migration have been exaggerated by right-wing media and politicians who welcome any excuse to demonize immigrants, the EU, or both; but that doesn't mean that problems don't exist.

There was a lot of anti-immigrant sentiment in Europe long before unrestricted migration of labour within Europe began, so it can't be blamed on problems with the latter - but resentments over the latter undoubtedly do get used to build up support for generally xenophobic parties.

[Taverner]

12. Many European countries have never had to deal with immigration before

OF course, with all our experience, we haven't been any better - so take that for what its worth

[LeftishBrit]

34. Most have, in fact, especially in Western Europe.

They have not had to deal with unrestricted within-EU immigration until recently; but most countries have had to deal with significant waves of immigration over the years. This is particularly true of the UK and France, but other countries including Norway have also had a fair bit.

There is a long tradition of immigration, and also of anti-immigrant bigotry.

[Romulox]

15. Disgusting that the globalists are trying to make hay out of this tragedy.

:puke:

[Warren Stupidity]

19. Right, everyone on the pro-immigrant rights side should sit down and shut up.

how dare they speak out after a rightwing radical anti-immigrant terrorist killed 100 people, justifying his actions at least partially because of the dire threat immigrants allegedly pose to pure nordic society.

[Romulox]

22. A shooting massacre is NOT an argument for cheap labor.

:puke:

[Warren Stupidity]

24. It is an argument for tolerance.

[Romulox]

26. LOL. Tolerance of globalism/cheap labor, you must mean.

Since you have taken issue ONLY with my critique of same.

[Warren Stupidity]

27. tolerance of immigrants. the cheap labor is offshore.

[Romulox]

32. Not in the US. Stoop labor is a reality, here. nt

[Warren Stupidity]

35. The legalize and regulate it.

[Romulox]

36. "Legalize" treating a man like a pack animal? I think we may have tried that in the past...

Perhaps we can count such men as 3/5 of a person for the purpose of Congressional representation? :hi:

[Warren Stupidity]

37. WTF?

how about reading whatever you want into anything anyone says here and then attacking that? Sound like a plan?

[Romulox]

38. We were talking about "stoop labor", remember?

stoop labor 
–noun
the physical labor associated with the cultivation or picking of crops in farm fields, especially as performed by poorly paid, unskilled workers.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/stoop+labor

You said "legalize it!".

"how about reading whatever you want into anything anyone says here and then attacking that?"

LOL. How about looking up words and phrases that you aren't familiar with, instead of using inarticulate grunts like "WTF?"? :hi:

[pampango]

29. Immigrants to Norway are almost entirely legal, subject to the same wage and working conditions laws

as anyone else in Norway. I haven't read any accounts that Norwegian progressives or unions opposed Muslim, or any other, immigration on the grounds that it was harming Norwegian workers. Rather it has been the conservatives there who have opposed it on cultural grounds.

Even Breivik wasn't mad at Muslim immigrants because he thought they were illegal or 'cheap labor'. Quite the opposite; he blamed the liberal government for allowing so much legal Muslim immigration because, in his mind, Norwegian liberals believed in "multicultural marxism" and "internationalism" or, to put it another way, "tolerance".

[Romulox]

31. Right, but your posts and the OP are meant to smear those who oppose cheap labor here in the US.

Your attempt is to associate a madman with anyone who opposes globalism. It's not subtle.