You know what I don't get about yesterday's attack?

[The Backlash Cometh]

If Arizona has liberal gun laws, how come no one challenged the gunman yesterday? Isn't that the reason behind carrying concealed weapons? Why, when the target was a Dem congresswomen, was there no one in the vicinity ready to return fire?

[Tejas]

1. Put down the remote.

24 is not real life, Jack Baer can not be everywhere.

[The Backlash Cometh]

4. The point is, that people didn't respond in the manner that the pro-gun

lobby claimed they would respond.

[Tejas]

13. Responding by shooting in a crowd of people?

No.

[The Backlash Cometh]

19. Ah. So people hesitated because of the crowd.

Something that the pro-gun crowd didn't think about.

[Tejas]

34. Keep saying it is so.

So the pro-gun crowd endorses blasting away in a crowd...okay, if you say so then it must be the truth.

[The Backlash Cometh]

38. Do they?

I wouldn't know. Just that they seem to think it will put an end to these crazy shootings.

[Tejas]

45. You keep expousing that speil, so cite it (as requested below).

[The Backlash Cometh]

50. I would think this is prima facie by now.

However, here are some articles or discussions

AUSTIN - Armed criminals should take notice.

Next time they try to mug someone, rob a convenience store or take a person's car at gunpoint, the would-be victim or victims also could be carrying a weapon.

A growing number of Texans have applied and are authorized to carry concealed guns, show Texas Department of Public Safety records.

http://amarillo.com/news/local-news/2010-09-19/more-texans-carry-guns

- - - -

according to stats provided by the fed. gov.overall violent crime in states allowing open carry drops on avergae by 18%. This includes a drop of 32% in robbery, 21% drop in homicide. I'm convinced if more people were to exploit their weapons in a respectful and responsible manner of OC, we would see an even more dramatic drop in violent crime. But in a modern society it is becoming less acceptable and the notion that its not necessry iswinning popularuty the result of ignorance.

http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-46493.html

[X_Digger]

54. Those statements are quite different than that of the OP..

I would accuse the poster in the second link of a 'post hoc ergo propter hoc' logical fallacy (confusing correlation with causation), but it doesn't rise to the attitude you expressed in the OP.

[The Backlash Cometh]

58. I think it's pretty cut and dry.

[X_Digger]

61. Then please connect the dots..

Your OP stated, "Isn't that the reason behind carrying concealed weapons?"

To back up that statement, I'd expect to see legislators in various state houses asserting such as part of their debate on concealed carry.

Heck, Iowa went 'shall issue' just this past month; surely you should be able to find something from the debate in the Iowa legislature, if that were being used as justification for concealed carry.


Your 'evidence' so far consists of a news story saying that more people are licensed than the previous year in Texas, and a post about open carry (not concealed carry as your OP stipulates.)

Connect some dots, eh?

[The Backlash Cometh]

64. You're being dishonest in this debate.

I gave you evidence in post #52 and you're ignoring it. That's what I found without even trying. Imagine what I could do if I really gave a damn.

[X_Digger]

68. A post about OPEN carry? (When you made the claim about CONCEALED carry?)

Perhaps you could do a bit more searching, cause if this is what you found 'without even trying', I'm not sanguine about what you'll find when you put your mind to it.

[The Backlash Cometh]

71. Does that really make a difference whether it's open carry or concealed?

The point is that they have the weapons in their possession. You are now leading into a non sequitur.

[X_Digger]

74. If you make claim A, and present what you think is evidence that doesn't fit your claim, yes.

Nevermind that you're taking one poster (on a related but different subject) and calling it representative of some overarching 'they'?

Do you have any indication that this opinion is held by a majority of concealed carry advocates? Any significant gun groups supported this idea?

Let me remind you-

"The point is, that people didn't respond in the manner that the pro-gun lobby claimed they would respond."

[The Backlash Cometh]

76. I don't think you're being honest in this debate.

You have a very irrational Libertarian style that refuses to follow a thread of logic.

[X_Digger]

77. I've been above board..

You've made various claims throughout this thread, with limited evidence to back them up. I've continued to seek clarification of your evidence.

What is an 'irrational Libertarian style'?

If I've failed to follow your argument from premise to conclusion, it's because you haven't made the case very well.

[WinkyDink]

83. You're missing the sarcasm. OP is saying the "defense" RAISON D'ETRE for carrying a gun is PHONY.

[Cid_B]

22. I'll give you the same hint..

.. I gave the guy in the other thread with the exact same thought...

[Billy Burnett]

70. Pro gun lobby? More like pro gun sales lobby.

It is all about the money. Period. Entrepreneurial capitalism at it's best.

Gun sales will go up because of this.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

2. That no one returned fire does not mean that no one was carrying

I read (not confirmed) that one of the men you tackled him was also armed. When I carry, I do not automatically draw when I hear shots.

[The Backlash Cometh]

5. But isn't this the entire point behind carrying a weapon? For self-defense?

The guy shot twenty people. That's a high number.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

23. Smart self defense...

The guy unloaded a 30 round clip fairly wildly and up close. I won't draw without a clear target, which is what is normally taught. Unless you were right there it would have been hard to identify who was doing the shooting.

[Posteritatis]

3. The right to carry one doesn't mean you're going to be equipped to instantly respond then

A weapon is not the mindset, reflexes and so on necessary to use that weapon instantly in an entirely unexpected combat situation.

With the possible exception of people with decent police or military training behind them, I'll never pretend I'm even close to having the right to tell anyone who was present there, armed or not, what they should've or could've done when someone started shooting people in close proximity to them.

I find the "I'm going to look down on anyone who didn't kill the guy on the spot instantly without fear or hesitation" that I've seen rattling around all over the net the last day or so to be obscenely sanctimonious at the very, very best. Nobody has any business telling people how they're supposed to react in that kind of situation.

[The Backlash Cometh]

6. But the pro-gun lobby has determined how people would respond if

they were carrying. And they were wrong.

[Posteritatis]

17. "People" aren't a monolith.

Any discussion of a situation like this which assumes they are is too divorced from reality to have much of anything useful to contribute.

[The Backlash Cometh]

24. I'm just saying, remember this event when the pro-gun crowd makes that claim.

It didn't go down the way they said it would.

[Statistical]

67. Nobody made the claim but you. n/t

[Tejas]

36. You keep making this claim, cite please?

[The Backlash Cometh]

40. It comes up in every discussion I've followed that pertains to the subject.

The claim is that the more people carry, the better chance to deter these types of things.

[Tejas]

46. I do have to give you credit for

participating in your own thread. All too often flamebait gets posted and the OP is nowhere to be found.

[The Backlash Cometh]

52. I have a respect for weapons.

I know they're only as good as the people that carry them.

[Ruby the Liberal]

7. One of the guys who tackled him was interviewed on CNN last night. He was carrying

but unlike the assassin, chose a less deathly method of handling the situation.

I am no fan of guns, but I have to give that guy credit for keeping his cool like that.

[The Backlash Cometh]

10. In the long run I think it was best to take him in alive.

But, twenty people were shot, and it sounds like there were two clips used. You got to wonder how many people might still be alive today if he was put down early.

[Ruby the Liberal]

81. No - only one. A 61 year old woman grabbed the second sand the third jammed.

When you say "put down early", please view this video of what a full auto glock is capable of (shooter had a semi auto).

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x541973

Shit went down quick.

[Recovered Repug]

8. Wasn't there already a thread about this?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x145349

[The Backlash Cometh]

11. Yes. That was a good thread. Sorry I missed it.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[90-percent]

12. carrying

I think if you carry, that doesn't mean you'd respond to a situation like this in the same manner as a policeman on the scene would.

guns are more for when the attack or threat is directed at your person, not somebody else.

-90% Jimmy

[The Backlash Cometh]

15. Which, essentially, proves that the gun lobby is wrong.

[Statistical]

25. No it justs means you strawman is made of straw.

Please show me a cite of anyone claiming if people carry they will be able to stop all crime, all of the time. Hell Police officers carry and sometimes are killed, sometimes even killed with their own weapon. By your "logic" the Police lobby is lying and all Police Officers should disarm.

[The Backlash Cometh]

28. I'm just pointing out an observation. I'm neutral in the gun argument,

except where states are trying to make them mandatory. Now that's looney.

[Statistical]

31. No state is making them mandatory. Nobody has claimed they will stop all crime. n/t

[The Backlash Cometh]

37. Oh, I don't know. You can find discussion crop up here and there.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=385632

It seems they come up now and then.

[Statistical]

39. You can find people who think just about anything doesn't mean any state is working to impose that.

[The Backlash Cometh]

41. I can remember such a discussion.

Kenneshaw, Georgia seems to be one place. It's a city, but I've heard the argument crop up in regard to a state. Can't remember which one at the time.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN1719257620070418

[RC]

82. The weasel word is "all"

The gungeon is full of fantasy posts saying in so many words "if only someone there was carrying" "...it would not have happen if..." "...the bad guy would have been stopped..." "If more people were carrying..." "Evey body should carry" "If I had been there..."

If anyone other than the shooter had hero fantasies and tried to take out the shooter like the scenarios in the gungeon, even more people would be dead.
It is a fact that way too many innocents in this country are dying because of easy access to hand guns.

[X_Digger]

30. Do you have any information that indicates that someone proposed..

.. that concealed carry would stop a lone gunman on a shooting spree?

Occasionally it does happen, as at the New Life Church in 2007.

The intersection of odds between concealed carry and a spree shooter are so small as to prove vanishingly small. In most states, those who carry concealed make up between 3 and 5% of the eligible population. Spree shootings are quite rare.

I carry to protect myself- I'm not a cop, nor a hero. If I weren't in immediate danger of grievous bodily harm, I would seek cover and be a good witness.

[The Backlash Cometh]

53. See post #52.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. They did cover that yesterday

the only guy packing was inside the Safeway, and by the time he came out Loefner was on the ground and under restraints.

Reality is, no, don't expect to see this in NRA central, is that even if you are packing it will take the brain about three seconds to process what is going on. I am far from a fair shot... and I can empty a short, normal magazine in three seconds.

[kestrel91316]

18. Silly. They each should have had TWO guns. THEN they would have

taken that dude out like the gun lobby says they would.

[The Backlash Cometh]

26. It just goes to show that human behavior is not as predictable as people would like to think it is.

[Statistical]

20. In related news people die while wearing seatbelts...

sometimes they die on fires despite smoke detectors.

Nobody except the anti-gunners claim a firearm is an "auto-win" talisman. It is a tool. A tool for self defense. Even cops are sometimes slain despite always carrying firearms.

[The Backlash Cometh]

29. Yes. Sometimes even cops are slain despite always carrying firearms.

That's a good observation.

[Statistical]

33. Should cops disarm? Obviously guns can't keep cops safe 100% of the time. n/t

[The Backlash Cometh]

43. No. They can't.

That's the point to remember.

[Statistical]

47. So cops should be forced to disarm? Like you want citizens forced to disarm?

[The Backlash Cometh]

57. Now that would be silly.

Of course, if citizens were put through the same rigorous training as cops, who knows? But that's not what's happening:

Arizona to allow concealed weapons without permit

But he said what really concerns him is that the new law will allow people who have had no education about Arizona's laws and no training on the shooting range to carry a concealed gun. The eight-hour class currently required to get a permit includes information on state law and gun safety, as well as requires students to be able to hit a target 14 out of 20 times. Furbee said his class at Mesa-based Ultimate Accessories costs $79, plus $60 for the five-year permit.

"I fully agree that we have a right to keep and bear arms," Furbee said. "But if you are not responsible enough to take a class and learn the laws, you are worse than part of the problem."

He said it's not uncommon for students to walk into his classroom and pull a new gun out of a box with no idea how to hold it and no understanding of the laws surrounding it.

"If you are going to carry a concealed weapon, you should have some kind of training and show that you are at least competent to know how the gun works and be able to hit a target," he said. "You owe the people around you a measure of responsibility."

Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/news/election/azelections/articles/2010/04/16/20100416arizona-concealed-weapons-bill16-ON.html#ixzz1AavjHR2S

[PufPuf23]

79. I have no idea but what about England?

In my understanding and when I last visted 1995 (for 4X), cops did not carry firearms but I am uncertain of firearm laws now or at the time in England. Aren't deaths by firearm of people and death of police or people by police much lower than the USA (and also the overall murder and suicide rates by gun)in England?

[Statistical]

80. England also has almost triple the violent crime rate compared to US.

Not exactly the crime free utopia.

You are far more likely to be a victim of violent crime in the UK than in the US.

[GSLevel9]

21. well...

what you're saying is that if maybe 30% of the population carried a gun to the event then someone would have been there at the right time and place to stop the attack, right?

Well... not that many people actually carry firearms even there. However there WAS one man with a gun who was inside the store during the shooting.

I don't know what you're trying to say... but in reality there isn't even a legal obligation for a CCW holder to render aid or assistance.

One may be capable of handling a firearm well enough to defend themselves but not have the skills to confront an armed attacker in a crowded area as he's shooting.

[The Backlash Cometh]

32. Yes. There are limitations. That's what I'm saying. There are limitations.

Carrying a gun is no panacea. People who try to frame it that way are not being realistic.

[Statistical]

35. That is the point. NOBODY except anti-gunners looking for a strawman frame it that way. n/t

[The Backlash Cometh]

44. I'm a social pragmatist that believes in critical thinking.

I'm just showing the flaw in the pro-gun argument.

Believe me. It's all about looking for flaws in any argument. I don't have a dog in this fight.

[Statistical]

49. Once realllllly slow. No gun rights advocate has made that claim.

You made up a bogus claim, then "defeated it". That is called a strawman.

[The Backlash Cometh]

60. See post #52.

I don't mind debating, but I have little patience for people who are dishonest about statements which are continually repeated by pro-gun lobbyists.

[Statistical]

65. Nothing in post 52 supports your bogus claim in the OP.

Only a small number of people carry weapons. They may defends themselves or others from crime however given there is a small number nobody EXCEPT YOU is claiming it will stop any specific crime in progress.

You made up a bogus claim, applied it to others despite nobody else ever having made that claim then "defeated" it. Take your victory lap slayer of straw.

[The Backlash Cometh]

69. Is this how you debate?

The way Libertarians are trying to disrupt reader forums by ignoring the logic?

I expected better of you.

[X_Digger]

51. You seem to be the only one promulgating that argument, however..

.. and you exposing the flaw in an argument that you're ascribing to someone else is a classic 'straw man'.

If the 'gun lobby' espoused this position, surely you must be able to find a statement by the NRA, GOA, TSRA, etc etc etc saying so, n'est-ce pas?

[The Backlash Cometh]

59. See post #52

It is an argument they espouse and I think you're being duplicitous in not admitting it.

[X_Digger]

63. Who is this 'they'?

If you can't be bothered to back up your claims, why should anyone listen?

[The Backlash Cometh]

66. See post #52 for the answer to your question.

[X_Digger]

72. A random poster on a forum, somewhere!

(Who is talking about open carry, btw..)

eta: And a reporter or editor who added a snarky headline to a story in a newspaper. Can't forget about that one. :crazy:

[The Backlash Cometh]

73. Non sequitur

Trying to ignore a point which will be heard in every pro-gun debate you'll stumble into does not reinforce your position.

[X_Digger]

78. It actually "does follow"

If it's so prevalent, and is espoused by the pro-gun lobby, surely a statement from a regional, state, or national organization should be easy to find.

"The point is, that people didn't respond in the manner that the pro-gun lobby claimed they would respond."

[geckosfeet]

27. Because that is a canard.

Imagine if five people in that small crowd were carrying and they all decided to shoot. It would have been crossfire chaos.

That said, I would prefer to carry than not.

[WinkyDink]

84. if not for defense in a SHOOTING, then why carry a gun at all? OFFENSE?

[Tejas]

85. Yeah, let's just dump a mag at

the bad guy IN A CROWD OF PEOPLE.

[MineralMan]

42. Only a small percentage of the people in any given place

are carrying firearms, even in a state like Arizona. A very small percentage.

Odds are that if you go to the supermarket, nobody you see there is carrying. That's the actual reality of CCW, even in a state like Arizona. CCW gets far more publicity than the number of people actually carrying warrants.

Chances are high that there wasn't someone carrying there who was in a position to act. That's usually the case.

[Ozymanithrax]

48. It is basic human instinct to run when bullets start flying...

The military and police spend a great deal of effort and time to train people to reject that basic instinct and return fire.

One of the people that acted was a woman who was shot, who fought him to keep him from Palinizing his weapon (reloading). Others, when they had a clear chance drug him down and stopped him. These were brave and courageous people who risked their lives.

Rather than wonder why a second amendment wonder didn't pull his weapon and gun the guy down like Stalone or Schwarzenegger, we should be thankful that people acted when they did. With another 30 round magazine, it could have been worse.

[The Backlash Cometh]

62. Very astute observation.

The gunman was put down without the use of a gun. Who knew?

[Codeine]

55. Even in states where gun laws are very loose

most people still don't carry a weapon. I'd imagine even fewer would at a meet-n-greet with their Democratic Congressperson.

[freshwest]

56. I've been told they have open carry laws in AZ.

[The Backlash Cometh]

75. They apparently do.

Arizona to allow concealed weapons without permit

But he said what really concerns him is that the new law will allow people who have had no education about Arizona's laws and no training on the shooting range to carry a concealed gun. The eight-hour class currently required to get a permit includes information on state law and gun safety, as well as requires students to be able to hit a target 14 out of 20 times. Furbee said his class at Mesa-based Ultimate Accessories costs $79, plus $60 for the five-year permit.

"I fully agree that we have a right to keep and bear arms," Furbee said. "But if you are not responsible enough to take a class and learn the laws, you are worse than part of the problem."

He said it's not uncommon for students to walk into his classroom and pull a new gun out of a box with no idea how to hold it and no understanding of the laws surrounding it.

"If you are going to carry a concealed weapon, you should have some kind of training and show that you are at least competent to know how the gun works and be able to hit a target," he said. "You owe the people around you a measure of responsibility."

Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/news/election/azelections/articles/2010/04/16/20100416arizona-concealed-weapons-bill16-ON.html#ixzz1AavjHR2S

[demokatgurrl]

86. Correct. I heard a firearms expert today

on NPR say that. Concealed, open, are both fine.

[defendandprotect]

87. Ah .... because not everyone was armed .... that's the GOP/NRA goal-- !!