Some immigrants are more equal than others.

[sulphurdunn]

Immigration: There's reform and there's reform

While House Republicans have control of the news cycle with their misdirection about holding the credit of the United States hostage, they have also been busy in other areas. Especially, in the area of immigration and who gets a Green Card.

It seems they are pondering a bill to eliminate immigration caps for people possessing advanced degrees and for foreign nationals wanting to start businesses in the US. Such people will move to the head of the immigration line. They are apparently not considering conferring the same benefits on the tired, poor, huddled masses yearning to breathe free if they don't have technical skills desired by the likes of Microsoft.

The primary beneficiaries of this bill would be professionals from India and China who will work for less, have no rights and will remain docile or be sent packing back to from whence they came. As a business model designed to import skilled, cheap labor it's a winner. As immigration policy it would be a disgrace.

If duplicity and shameless hypocrisy were virtues, the Republican Party (and their Blue Dog fifth columnists) would be breathtaking.

http://www.infoworld.com/d/the-industry-standard/house-...

[leveymg]

1. "people possessing advanced degrees and foreign nationals wanting to start business in the US" -

you make that sound like a bad thing. Is it?

The point is to make it easier for such professionals and entrepreneurs to remain as permanent residents, rather than as under the present system, "work for less, have no rights and will remain docile or be sent packing back to from whence they came." Or, do you think such an exploitative immigration system should not be reformed, and everyone should just be sent away?

BTW: it's not just "the Republican Party (and their Blue Dog fifth columnists)" who recognize that this is a nation built by immigrants, and we should make it possible for those with the skills and drive to maintain that legacy to continue doing that. Being pro-immigrant is a fundamental progressive belief.

[sulphurdunn]

4. It's not about immigration per se.

It's about cheap labor and education. The same reactionary forces that want elite immigration laws, also want to profit from the privatization of the K-12 public educational system that prepares Americans to pursue advanced degrees. It's part of globalization. I disapprove. The real work of building America was done by slaves, indentured servants, poor farmers and skilled laborers. It's offensive to assert that those with better professional credentials have more skill and drive or are preferable to those who do the country's dirty work.

I have no objection to "talented" people emigrating to the US. I most certainly have no objection to immigration. My objection is to certain classes of immigrants moving to the head of the line. Defending that is to assume that foreign professionals will make better and more productive Americans than others becasue they fatten the bottom line of American corporations. I don't buy it. We already give preference to those who posses skills desired for the advancement of science and technology. We just don't give American employers the right to hire as many of them as they want. That's what this legislation would do, and there is nothing in it that would reform out exploitative immigration system.

[leveymg]

7. The employment-based and family-based quotas got split in 1967. It does not take visas

from family-based immigrants. The reforms called for merely make the process of getting an immigrant visa less expensive and uncertain for persons with the highest skills and qualifications.

Immigrant investors already have their own category, EB-5, that puts them at the head of the employment-based line. But, that category is under-subscribed because many professionals and entrepreneurs don't have $500,000 to $1,000,000 cash to invest in someone else's business - their capital is often already tied up in ongoing businesses of their own. This change in the law would give them credit for creating US employment by building new companies that hire US workers and attract investors. Is there something wrong with that?

[The Hitman]

15. yessss

Finally, someone who has a grip on how immigration law works.

Although, I would add, that immigrant investors can also get a temporary, nonimmigrant E visa. The problem is that they generally need their own capital. There is no good way for immigrants with great ideas to attract US capital to open a business and be allowed to stay here.

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

38. My father is a recipient of one of those 'preferential' categories

and he didn't enrich any US corporation. In fact, he worked for an Italian corporation's U.S. subsidiary. What that subsidiary did do, however, was to provide several hundreds of jobs in a small rural NC town and, at one point, was that town's largest employer, contributing to the town's growth, raised standard of living, infrastructure, tax base, property values, etc.

All countries with solid immigration laws tend to favor those who have certain skills that would improve that country's value in some ways. The US does prefer those who have some skill, education or talent that is not found commonly. That's why it only takes one Grammy, Emmy or Oscar for an entertainer to qualify for a green card based on extraordinary ability. A scientist with peer reviewed research and references from other well-known scientists gets preference over someone with a BS in chemistry. An engineer with several patents gets preference over an engineer who does not have them.

[sulphurdunn]

50. My ancestors came here

as indentured servants to mine coal after loosing the Jacobite Rebellion of 1745 against the English. The family fame and infamy runs the gamut from minsters to murderers. I doubt they'd be allowed in today.

The brightest and most creative people do not always have advanced degrees or an interest in business. That was and remains my point. Vacuuming up educated professionals of foreign birth at the expense of those with other talents is the kind of exploitative and narrow thinking for which the country is increasingly resented.

[Confusious]

2. Sounds like h1b on steroids. nt

[The Hitman]

10. Or not.

Do you even know what H-1B is?

[Confusious]

21. Yes

It's not like we don't have unemployed professionals here. Why do we need to bring them over from other countries?

Cheap labor for corporations.

Same thing the H1B program is used for.

[The Hitman]

29. ugghhhhh

we have, so far since april, 35,000 H-1B petitions granted. More people than that live in my neighborhood.

[Confusious]

34. Yea, how many over 6 years

That's how long they last.

How many Americans are out of work? 15,000,000. How many IT people. Probably more then 35,000.

eat it.

[The Hitman]

37. Because all H-1Bs are IT people

Clearly...
:sarcasm:

[Confusious]

47. Enough are. nt

[Sarah Ibarruri]

3. I'm against importing workers with degrees. Lines to get a job here go around the frikkin' block

Why are we bringing in workers from other countries? I need an answer to that.

[lumberjack_jeff]

5. But we've come to depend on cheap software!

These are simply hard working families, hoping for the american dream. Besides, they're doing jobs americans won't do. Entire segments of the economy will collapse without their help! What is Microsoft going to do when it's time for Win 8? Let the fruit rot on the tree? miss their analyst expectations?

I try to be consistent. Really, I do. But there's a part of me who gets some perverse pleasure listening to the bourgeoisie whine about immigrants taking their jobs while their illegal alien gardener mows the lawn in the background.

I'm against importing workers period, degrees or no.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

17. Same here but the degreed workers are worse and I'll tell you why...

Those jobs that don't require a degree always hold the promise of one day getting a degree and getting promoted to a better job. However, when the 'better' jobs are already being held by imported workers, what hope is there for promotion? None.

[pitohui]

28. the degreed workers are worse because the native has gone a lifetime in debt to get her degree

we can't compete w. someone who has had their education paid for, because we must ask for a salary that allows us to feed ourselves and pay off the debt

promotion is a lost cause, if you're an engineer you prob. have a 15 year career anyway if you're not related to the right person, you need to get in there fast, make a lot of money in a short time and pay all your debts and get/pay off a house or you're fucked when your degree ages out

promotion is not relevant, a lot of smart "nerds" don't have the people skills to be promoted anyway, they have the problem a young model or starlet does -- a short career, if the career is to be short, it must be well compensated or it is stupid to embark on that career in the first place

[Nye Bevan]

6. Smart, well educated immigrants *create* many jobs for Americans, too.

They buy houses. People need to build and maintain these houses. They use electricians, plumbers and gardeners. They buy appliances, cars and clothes. They eat at restaurants, creating jobs for chefs and waitstaff. I don't know of any serious economist who disputes that immigrants like these are a net benefit to our society.

[The Hitman]

11. K&R

I wish I could kick this to the top of DU. I am really sick of this nativist anti-immigrant / anti-nonimmigrant sentiment expressed here. I think everyone needs to watch that Lawrence O'Donnell vignette about not fearing immigration.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

18. No. It's the same to bring in an imported worker, as it is to ship out a job to China or India

No difference. They both lead to lines around the block with hundreds applying for one available job. We need to stop the mega-rich and corporations from giving away OUR jobs to people who are not from this country.

[Nye Bevan]

23. Really? You don't understand how US immigrants buy houses, go to restaurants,

hire plumbers, etc., creating jobs here? While this is not the case for jobs that are shipped to China? Come on, this is not exactly PhD level economics here!

[Starbucks Anarchist]

32. No, an imported worker contributes to the tax base and economy here.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

41. Oh yeah, I can see that right now. We're swimming in jobs thanks to imported workers.

It's the same, old free trade argument. "If we take your jobs away, new, better ones will magically appear!" Oh yeah baby. Uhuh. Right-o.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

44. What are you talking about?

You stated that an imported worker is the exact same as an outsourced job, so I told you that an imported worker (unlike an outsourced one) actually contributes to the economy here -- hence they're different.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

8. So you're okay with importing unskilled labor?

As long as they don't threaten the "good jobs," it's okay?

[sulphurdunn]

12. We already have an entire

underclass of skilled and unskilled defenseless and unrepresented workers called illegal immigrants. All this bill does is to create the same system for professional labor by making it legal. I wonder if this bill has a provision in it requiring that professional immigrants who will be recruited under this bill also be hired at prevailing wage rates?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

19. No, but the higher-paid jobs are definitely a crime to give away, because then the

unskilled workers have zero hope. There's nothing to look forward to EVEN WITH education.

[Nye Bevan]

24. Your delusion is what economists refer to as the "lump of labor fallacy".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labor

In economics, the lump of labour fallacy (or lump of jobs fallacy) is the contention that the amount of work available to labourers is fixed. It is considered a fallacy by most economists, who hold that the amount of work is not static. Another way to describe the fallacy is that it treats a quantity as if it were an exogenous variable, when it is not. It may also be called the fallacy of labour scarcity, or the zero-sum fallacy, from its ties to the zero-sum game.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

27. Really. Tell that to the mid U.S. who have no jobs anywhere.

Are you still trying to sell me the idea that when jobs are taken out of this country, new ones pop up by magic? That is complete bullshit, and I'd appreciate it if you'd try to convince someone else. It's like the story of the Emperor's New Clothes. Nono, really! The Emperor really was wearing clothes. Or, how about if I eat your food and new food will magically appear on your plate?

Jesus, the bullshit I hear around here is amazing.

[Nye Bevan]

30. You do realize that you are taking the Republican side of this issue?

I guess you approve of the anti-immigration law that Arizona passed, too. What other issues do you agree with the Tea Party on?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

31. I'm taking the American side of this. American's jobs were taken away...

and that's unconscionable.

[The Hitman]

9. FINALLY A GOOD IDEA FROM THE GOP

"It seems they are pondering a bill to eliminate immigration caps for people possessing advanced degrees and for foreign nationals wanting to start businesses in the US. Such people will move to the head of the immigration line"

I am going to get attacked like crazy here... but this plan would be GREAT! FWIW, I am an immigration attorney. Every day I see that we have a "brain drain" where plenty of foreign grads from US institutions are forced to be sent home because they cannot find a job and are precluded from starting their own businesses and, thus, hiring US workers. We spend lots of money to educate foreigners and then send them home.

I don't see anything in the bill regarding lower wages. Remember, immigrants in these backlogged categories need to be certified as recieving a prevailing wage. From what I see, the prevailing wage is more often than not higher than actual wages.

"if they don't have technical skills desired by the likes of Microsoft."

Or a hospital, to do research to fight cancer. Im glad you think only Microsoft hires foreigners to do its evil bidding.

This needs to happen.

[sulphurdunn]

13. Of course there'll

be nothing in the bill regarding lower wages. Nor are you likely to see anything about prevailing wages.

Microsoft was an example becasue it is a major importer of IT workers and has consequently driven down the prevailing wage.

It is a wonderful thing to have foreign doctors searching for cancer cures in American research hospitals. I don't see, however, why that should be a ticket to permanent residency.

I will reiterate one more time: I have no problem with any law abiding person emigrating to the US. I have a very big problem with people jumping to the head of line.

[The Hitman]

14. Wait just one sec:

"be nothing in the bill regarding lower wages. Nor are you likely to see anything about prevailing wages. "

Employers must already attest to the prevailing wage in all but a very few limited circumstances. They must also test the labor market to ensure no qualified US worker can take the job. You seriously have no idea how business immigration works.

[Confusious]

22. Seems you don't

Or don't care.

Corporations break those rules all the time.

Let's put out an ad and pay 30 grand for a masters. no American applied, gotta get an H1B.

Or make the requirements so hard they can't find anyone. no American worker applied, gotta get get an H1B.

Or do corporations just break all the other rules and not this one?

That it comes from the GOP makes it even clearer what this change would be for.

[The Hitman]

25. WHAT?

Employers don't even advertise for H-1B!

I'm glad you know so much about immigration law and can educate me. I'll see you at the next AILA conference, chief.

[Confusious]

33. Seriously, learn to read and look beyond your backyard.

You can't see past it, so you don't see what's going on.

And I'll repeat the question:

do corporations just break all the other rules and not this one?

[The Hitman]

36. They don't break this one

Nice try reversing the burden of proof

[Confusious]

46. Sure they don't

and they give out ponies on birthdays too.

Seriously, you don't think they find ways around that rule. freakin' unbelievable.

head, sand.

[sulphurdunn]

42. No of course not.

They'd never do something like that.

http://www.sfweekly.com/2011-06-22/news/h1b-visa-silicon-valley-immigration-matt-smith/

http://www.h1base.com/

[Starbucks Anarchist]

16. Then what would qualify for permanent residency?

A foreign doctor researching cancer cures here does more good than a foreign vegetable picker.

[The Hitman]

26. Hence the preference system

Which is why visas go to EB-1 and EB-2 over EB-3.

[sulphurdunn]

40. Why do you assume that?

Next time you eat some vegetables consider that without foreign vegetable pickers you'd be doing the picking yourself or doing without.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

45. Yes, nobody picked vegetables until illegal immigrants.

Clearly, they are our salvation, especially with the high degree of technical knowledge they need, unlike people in the medical field, who are a dime a dozen.

:eyes:

And if you're for illegal immigration, then you can't be against legal immigration, even when H-1Bs are concerned. Both undercut wages.

[sulphurdunn]

49. I never said I was for illegal immigration.

I did say I was for equity in legal immigration. If you think those illegals who pick the crops are a dime a dozen you haven't been to Georgia lately. Yet, in a sense, they are dime a dozen because they are illegal. Your error in reasoning is the assumption that making exploration legal changes anything. Slavery was legal once. Using prison labor is catching on again. :think:

[WinkyDink]

20. Don't bet that "professionals from India and China.... will work for less...."

[sulphurdunn]

43. Why not just go to

Redmond Wa. or to Silicon Valley and talk to some of the American ITs who have been replaced by H1-B workers from India for lower wages and you'll no longer need to assume.

[Odin2005]

35. Goddammit, in a depression like this American jobs should be for AMERICANS.

[astral]

39. You would think, wouldn't you?

The illegal immigration issue is such a hot button around here it's politically incorrect to bring up the fact the jobs are leaving plenty of people who are already American citizens with no means of support. These strange decisions our government is making is not by accident. We have become, already, a country not run by its people A-N-Y-M-O-R-E.

[nadinbrzezinski]

48. Hmm you realize that a green card holder

has far more rights than an immigrant that came under the temp visas or work visas? Only right you don't have is... to vote.

All countries do this, by the way.