why I believe in the death penalty

[MyrnaLoy]

Norway Killer May Get 30 Years

Mr. Breivik is currently charged with terrorism-related crimes, which carry a prison term of up to 21 years in Norway, following Friday's bombing and shootings in Oslo and the Utoya island where 76 people were killed. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903999904576469541141259936.html


That's around 6 months for each of his victims. Crazy.

[sendero]

1. I'm pretty sure this guy..

.. will never see the light of a free day again, then again crimes like this (completely heinous, no question of guilt) are what the death penalty was made for.

This guy has no more in common with a human being than a rabid dog does to Fido.

[rustydog]

76. Norway does not have a death penalty, but they have provisions

in the law for keeping seriously defective people like him behind bars long after he serves his 21 yesra

[Obamanaut]

2. I agree with you. People say the death penalty is not a deterrent, and that is true.

The death penalty is NOT a deterrent, but instead is a punishment. The fear, or prospect, of a death penalty is the deterrent and that obviously does not always work.

When the deterrent does not deter, then the punishment should be applied.

edited to add: With one appeal, not twenty years worth of them.

[Warren Stupidity]

12. perhaps you meant 'detergent'?

But I tried substituting that word and your statements still were self contradictory and senseless. I did note that whatever logic is in there applies equally to any punishment that might be attached to a crime. For example, substitute "No Ponies For You" for "The Death Penalty".


No Ponies For You is NOT a deterrent, but instead is a punishment. The fear, or prospect, of No Ponies For You is the deterrent and that obviously does not always work.

When the deterrent does not deter, then the punishment should be applied.

edited to add: With one appeal, not twenty years worth of them.

[Obamanaut]

35. Penalty and Punishment are really close in meaning. The fear of, or prospect of,

the penalty/punishment is the deterrent. If one commits any crime, or commits any foul (off sides in football, for example) the penalty is imposed.

It is the fear of punishment that keeps honest people honest. For many who insist on transgressing the laws of society (or football), they believe that they won't be caught.

It actually makes sense.

edited out the rude part. decided you can't help it.

[Warren Stupidity]

79. but you agree that there is zero evidence of any deterrent at all, right?

So as I stated originally, your post does not make a lot of sense.

But perhaps we are just not offering enough of a deterrent? Perhaps if the perp knew that days of horrifying agony were in store for her, perhaps then we might see some positive results from our quest for justice?

We could look back at European society circa 1600 for a plethora of interesting and spectacularly horrible ways to slowly (or not) kill people in retribution for even the smallest of offenses. Oddly even then these practices did not have the desired deterrent effect as far as anyone researching the topic can tell. But who knows, things might be different now.

[Viking12]

80. One appeal? Yeah, right the courts are infallible.

I think you're at the wrong site.

[glowing]

3. Each country has its own right to deal with its justice system and court system and prison

system in a manner in which they feel is fitting. Maybe when this man is 60 or 70 yrs old he won't be a rabid dog and may realize what a tool he is... Or maybe someone will look the other way and let other inmates determine his fate...

[GodlessBiker]

4. Bad facts make bad law.

[Bluebear]

5. In the haste to paint Norway as crazy and socialist, this 21 year sentence is being tossed around

If it is felt that the convict is still a danger, sentences can be extended in five year blocks. he will never get out.

[kick-ass-bob]

38. This is exactly correct.

No one will ever let him out, they just do not have the same system as we do. He will never see the light of day as a free man.

[MedicalAdmin]

44. But, but, but....

We should make sure that Norway has a rational prison system like the USA and imprison a higher percentage of it's population that totalitarian countries. Freedom. Heck ya.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

56. I maintain that most people who wail about this ''he'll get out in 21 years'' bullshit KNOW that.

And are posting in furtherance of their agenda, truth be damned.

[reorg]

61. and some democrats hasten to assert they're not crazy and socialist

by claiming that this criminal will be put away forever.

It's called humane justice, guys. Which the death penalty and life sentences are certainly not. Yes, even mass murderers may not be locked up forever in European countries. That's not crazy and has nothing to do with socialism. It is completely rational, because people develop, they can change. It is quite possible that this creature doesn't pose any danger to anyone in twenty years time. He is still young, and he is not stupid. May he learn and atone for his outrageous crimes. We should provide EVERYONE with an opportunity to do better.

[Electric Monk]

68. No. This killer is shit (from the evidence I've seen).

Lock him up and throw away the key.

[reorg]

73. "lock him up and throw away the key" is not going to happen

The majority of us Europeans have overcome this ancient impulse for revenge, thankfully. It doesn't do any good.

[Dorian Gray]

77. Yeah...

keeping this man off the streets does no good for anybody.

(Sarcasm, for the sarcasm impaired.)

[MH1]

75. thanks for that info, I didn't know that

any chance you have a link that I can use when this comes up again, as it will?

[Apollo11]

6. Closure

Most of the people I know here in Belgium and back home in England don't agree with the death penalty and I don't think any European country still has it (unless you count Russia as European). But personally I would not have a problem with it in cases like this. Although I know in the US there have been a lot of cases of wrongful conviction for murder, because the police were in a hurry to close the case and the courts were under pressure to convict the suspected "murderer". In this case there is really no doubt as to whether Breivik is the killer.

I feel for the families and friends of the 76 people who were killed, and the more than 90 people wounded. Now they will have to wait and see if Breivik is going to be released from prison in 2032, 2037, 2042, 2047, 2052 ... Every 5 years the question will come back up and they can never be 100% sure whether he will remain in prison or not. At least with the death penalty - the families would have closure and not have to worry about the killer being released.

Also I think that this individual (Breivik) has declared war on Norway and on Norwegian society. He doesn't agree with the result of the elections. He knows that his ideas will never be supported by a majority of the population, and so he decided to try and start a bloody civil war (this whole rationale is set out in his "book"). In this case, I think Norway has a right to protect itself from this threat.

I was interested to learn that Anders Breivik does not have stable family background. His parents divorced when he was just 1 year old. He has not seen his father since he was 16, and their last phone call was 10 years ago. Not really an explanation or excuse for turning into a terrorist, but it must have had some impact on Breivik's psychological development.

This is from today's Daily Mail (UK):

'He should have shot himself': Father of Anders Breivik says he wishes his son had committed suicide

(...)
Jens Breivik had three children from a previous marriage - Erik, Jan and Nina - when he met Anders's mother, Wenche Behring, who had a daughter from a previous relationship.

Mr Beivik divorced Wenche when Anders was just one year old, and went on to marry Tove Xvermo - known as Wanda (who he met working at the Norwegian embassy in Paris).

Anders became the subject of a custody battle, as Mr Beivik and his new wife wanted to raise him in Paris, but they lost their case.

As a child, Anders used to visit his father at his flat in Paris, and at a holiday home in Normandy, western France.
(...)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2018604/Norway-massacre-Anders-Behring-Breivik-shot-says-father.html

You can also watch some of the interview with Jens Breivik here:
http://www.euronews.net/2011/07/26/breivik-s-father-says-his-son-should-have-shot-himself/

[LeftishBrit]

24. I wouldn't trust the Daily Mail; it is very sensational and unreliable.

I wouldn't be surprised if it goes the same way as the Murdoch press, as investigations continue.

[lunatica]

7. Yeah, the country should be as viciously and coldly murderous as he is

just to punish him for being viciously and coldly murderous. The crazy, of course, is only on the part of the individual murderer. When the country does it it's OK because it's an eye for an eye which is in the bible.

:sarcasm:

To do something as ugly as the death penalty on the grounds that in some cases there's just too much emotional backlash is to justify exactly what the criminal has done as some twisted form of justice when in reality it's no more than blind vengeance. How does that make anyone better than the criminal?

[quaker bill]

8. Why I don't

Mr. Breivik, Mr. Bundy, Mr. Gacy, you name your favorite, little more can be said to condemn them. They are fully evil and merit any fate the victims and society cares to deal them, they cannot be defended.

The imposition of the death penalty as opposed to other choices a society might choose to impose, speaks more to the character of the society than it does the criminal. We already understand the criminal to be who he is, there is nothing more to be said on that topic. Imposing the death penalty does not in fact make our judgement of him more harsh. Imposing the death penalty states that we find killing people to be a viable answer to such problems.

It is pretty clear that a great many people are comfortable with that statement, in this manner wars become "justified", because killing people is chosen as a viable solution to such problems. Taking lethal revenge on a captive says pretty much the same thing.

[Jokerman]

9. "speaks more to the character of the society than it does the criminal"

One of the best comments on the death penalty that I have ever read.

Thank you.

[quaker bill]

14. Practice - practice - practice

Being a Quaker, I have had this discussion a few times.

[Bragi]

81. Agree! It's about us as a society, not about the criminal

When we permit the state to kill people for retribution, we echo the same disrespect for human life shown by murderers.

[salin]

10. well stated.

[aikoaiko]

18. I agree that imposing the death penalty does say something about character - something good

and when the crime is heinous and agency is certain with no compelling mitigating circumstances imposing the death penalty after due process speaks well to our character.

We all draw lines as to what is cruel or unusual punishment and I do not think the death penalty to be cruel or unusual.

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. Yes it does, and it is not good

ESPECIALLY when we havre executed INNOCENT and RETARDED people. What it says about our society is NOT good.

[aikoaiko]

32. yes, when agency is not certain, the death penalty should not be applied.

But when it is certain, do you think it should be applied?

[nadinbrzezinski]

33. It was certain in all these cases

we have executed innocent people... that is enough to remove it from the books.

Our system, for the moment, successor states will do what they do... relies on the concept that it is best to let a guilty man go, than put behind bars an innocent one. Same applies to the death penalty. It is best NOT to execute the guilty to prevent the risk of executing (which we have done) the innocent.

[aikoaiko]

37. I'm not so sure agency was certain in all those cases.

You wrote: "Our system, for the moment, successor states will do what they do... relies on the concept that it is best to let a guilty man go, than put behind bars an innocent one".

If that were true, then we wouldn't put anyone in jail either, would we?

[nadinbrzezinski]

40. Why a few famous cases in the last two decades

walked, even when the rest of us knew they were guilty...

In a system that did not rely in that system we would not have bothered with the jury...

[SOS]

41. Since 1973

138 men have been released form death row becuase they were innocent.

They were all sentenced to death with certainty.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/innocence-and-death-penalty

I wouldn't lose any sleep if Breivik was shot, but the DP in the US is a slipshod thing.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

48. So you think states like Texas, Arizona, Florida, and Georgia...

...have better character than Massachusetts, Maine, New York and Vermont?

[coalition_unwilling]

51. IIRC, you don't even have a problem with people being executed

without a trial first, like Osama bin Laden. Why you weren't on my Ignore list before this is beyond me, but you are now.

[aikoaiko]

59. if you say so...

[quaker bill]

78. Indeed, as I said, the notion is quite popular

However, taking lethal vengance on a captive says what it says. This puishment is unusual because it can only be done once in a particular case. It is cruel because it ends in death, regardless of the means.

Dress it up in all the philosophical finery you care to, it is still just the plain act of killing people to solve problems.

Most folks who kill "think" they are solving some sort of problem.... Mr. Breivik as an example.

[aikoaiko]

82. Yes, most of the actions people take are done because they think it will solve some sort of problem.

That statement doesn't really seem to provide insight into this issue.

You say death is cruel. Why isn't captivity for life not cruel to you? That too can only be done once so is a life sentence not unusual by your standard?

Its an obvious rhetorical manipulation to say that killing someone solves a problem like the murderer Breveik, but the same could be applied to you. Mr. Breivik and other murderers agree with you that a life sentence is a much better response than death after they have killed people illegally.

[EstimatedProphet]

83. No, it doesn't

The death penalty AT ITS BEST is about society protecting itself. That's it. Every piece of evidence out there suggests that it doesn't act as a deterrent. Yes, you can make the case that when the accused is guilty beyond any doubt and there are no mitigating circumstances that it's a good thing, but in reality how often does that situation happen? It isn't that common.

If you want to be pro death penalty, knock yourself out - but will your feelings be the same if someday you are the accused instead of someone else, and Nancy Grace decides to further her career on your back?

[demmiblue]

23. +1 n/t

[Solly Mack]

30. Well said.

[lukasahero]

54. "speaks more to the character of the society than it does the criminal."

Exactly this! Beautifully put.

I just came back from break where everyone was raving this this is why they, too, support the death penalty. I wish I had been as eloquent as you when I said I hoped that this tragic event doesn't change Norwegian society to the point that they consider instituting it. (I was met with incredulous glares.)

[Warren Stupidity]

11. Civilized people don't.

On a scale of enlightened progressive human civilization, Norway is way above us.

[polmaven]

29. I completely agree...

I do not want the government to commit "legal" murder in my name.

[coalition_unwilling]

52. Reminds me of a standing joke from the book and movie 'Little Big Man' - there's

civilized peoples and there are Americans :)

[NNN0LHI]

13. 13 of 25 men on the Illinois death row were found to be factually innocent a few years ago

We had a Chicago Police Commander named Jon Burge(In prison himself now) who was torturing people into confessing to crimes they didn't commit.

Were you aware of that?

Don

[sudopod]

26. HIPPIE!

If god didn't think they were guilty, he would have let them be convicted.

QED

[polmaven]

31. Oh, get over it.

[sudopod]

34. Get over what?

I'm pretty sure any reasonable reading of my posts indicates sarcasm. I'm on your side. :3 I hate to think there are enough people at the DU who would actually agree with that sentiment to make the sarcasm undetectable without a bleeding sarcasm tag. :/

If so, I apologize for stirring that pot.

[polmaven]

39. Get over the constant

religion bashing so many on this board are so ready to post. There are many persons of faith here, and none of us believe anything like that. Get over it.

[sudopod]

42. You might wait for this thread to fill up.

Our Defenders of Conventional Thought may shock you if they choose to put in an appearence.

Also, I was being explicitly silly. I hear this shit where I live all the time, even from people I love, and laughing at it is healthier than being depressed by it nine times out of ten. Your profile indicated you are from Massachusetts, which on average seems to be a much more rational and civilized place to live, so I understand if joking like that seems over-the-top. However, that is what some people actually believe, or close enough to it that you couldn't thrust a hair into the gap.

I never claimed to be good at black humor, though. Please don't take it personally.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dappleganger]

16. Barbarianism doesn't serve justice for barbaric acts.

[Ichingcarpenter]

17. For One its the Wall Street Journal ... two

they defended one their own because the terrorist liked his writings.

three ..... he will never get out .... its a five year review.

4... they are a democratic country and voted against the death penalty.

5. .....Look at the US record it an't pretty on the death penalty.

[Shagbark Hickory]

19. The biggest problem I have with the D.P. is it just seems like such an easy way out.

In other words, not harsh enough.

As someone else said, it's probably not a deterrent to someone who's hell bent on committing a crime and expects to be a martyr.

[Upton]

20. I agree with you on this one..

I feel pretty much as the president does when he said some crimes are “so heinous, so beyond the pale, that the community is justified in expressing the full measure of its outrage by meting out the ultimate punishment.”

[LeftishBrit]

21. He isn't going to go free again..

They can keep a person locked up indefinitely if he's deemed to be a serious danger to others.

The only question is whether he will go to an ordinary prison or a secure psychiatric institution. Not whether he'll be out on the streets.

[spanone]

22. so, because he killed, we can kill? two wrongs don't make anything right.

[nadinbrzezinski]

25. And we all know the moment the state kills him

all those people will rise from the dead and come back.

1.- Having the death penalty would not have DETERRED this guy from doing what he did.

2.- Norway also keeps those it thinks are dangerous to society behind bars after a review every five years, why boy scout expects to spend his life in jail.

3.- Their model is try to redeem the criminal... very different than ours, I dare say it works better for THEIR SOCIETY.

4.- JUST FROM A FISCAL perspective life is a better financial bet and in California it has been a financial boondoggle. When it comes for a vote, they will bring it for a vote, I am voting to abolish it.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MedicalAdmin]

46. "and I don't mean sitting in a climate controlled cell watching a flat screen TV."

Clearly you have never been in a prison... I've worked in multiple maximum security environments and I can tell you that air conditioning wasn't present in any of the ones that house prisoners. As for TV's, most prisoners have access to a group TV and those that can afford one can sometimes buy one from the commissary at vastly inflated prices. Hot sweaty and dangerous pretty much sums it up. And I can tell you that the guard that are involved in the day to day operations and have to deal with guys like this WANT them to have TV's as they tend to keep a lid on the problems functioning, as they do, as a distraction.

This man will not be coddled. And the death penalty is what the democratic people of Norway have chosen. I, for one, respect that.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

50. But, you see, there is the rub.

"...the guard that are involved in the day to day operations and have to deal with guys like this WANT them to have TV's as they tend to keep a lid on the problems functioning, as they do, as a distraction."

Fuck security. What is the risk of a few prison riots and possible deaths of guards compared to the all-encompassing need to PUNISHPUNISHPUNISH!!!1111!!! :crazy:

[MedicalAdmin]

63. LOL. Good one.

Fuck the working man. We want blooooooooooood.

Do you think there could be a future reality TV show in here somewhere? Oh wait.

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=movie+gamer&um=1&hl=en&safe=off&client=safari&sa=N&rls=en&biw=1007&bih=871&tbm=isch&tbnid=2CIWjg_1PUD9GM:&imgrefurl=http://www.setupswarm.com/main/media/movies/gamer/attachment/gamer-movie&docid=TPSqJjUPCb7bYM&w=500&h=392&ei=JzgvTrKcKqjiiAL2-dQr&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=472&vpy=141&dur=359&hovh=199&hovw=254&tx=142&ty=139&page=1&tbnh=167&tbnw=178&start=0&ndsp=15&ved=1t:429,r:2,s:0

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

49. Fourth.

[idiotgardener]

58. You don't think the guy is mentally ill?

Then who qualifies as mentally ill?

[kick-ass-bob]

36. Highly unlikely. These numbers are meant to stir up people

so they read articles like this. The odds are overwhelming that he will never be a free man. The Norwegian justice system has him come up every 5 years after the sentence to see if he should be released, and can you imagine if they were to let him go? They won't and he will never be free again.

[MrScorpio]

43. I'm not. No matter what the crime

It's little more than state sanctioned vengeance. And the way that it's practiced in this country makes it all too certain that some poor, innocent bastard is going to get killed.

Sure, prosecutors and judges can tally up a nice bunch of notches. Vengeance makes great political theater... Justice, not so much.

It's barbaric, to say the least, as well as hypocritical. One life is valued, so much that another has to die? I've never understood that equation. Oh, now we have two dead, or even more.

Yes, Breivik is a horrible person, with no regard for human life. I don't see how killing him will bring any kind of closure, or his poor victims back to life.

Society should be better than the killer it punishes.

An eye for and eye makes the whole world blind, said Gandhi.

[awoke_in_2003]

45. 21 years until a parole hearing...

where he will be denied. He will never get out. You don't fight barbarism with barbarism.

[Scruffy1]

47. When someone tells me they "believe"

They are saying facts and logic don't matter. I would rather hear an "I Think"

[blueclown]

53. Why not just life in prison then?

That's well more than 6 months for each of his victims.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

55. It WILL be life in prison. This 21 year BS is a right-wing meme. See post #5. -nt

[spin]

57. How about life in solitary confinement....

With only the Bible to read.

[Proles]

60. I agree with the death penalty as well.

Once you have committed a certain crime (or crimes), you forfeit your right to be considered a human being.

As someone else said, it's not a deterrent, but a punishment -- and a way to rid the world of people who cannot contribute anything meaningful to society.

If applied consistently across state borders, I see no reason why it should not exist. In fact, I believe in addition to murderers, aggravated rapists and child molesters should receive the death penalty.

I think I recall even President Obama condoning the death penalty for those cases.

[AlabamaLibrul]

62. That would be a fantastic argument if the WSJ article wasn't bullshit

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1561035&mesg_id=1561174

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

66. See #56. -nt

[Logical]

64. Obviously you have not spent 30 minutes researchingbthis topic! n-t

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

67. See #56. -nt

[GumboYaYa]

65. Fail!

[uppityperson]

69. Death penalty for revenge does not outweigh the chances of it being used inappropriately.

Mr Breivik will not be let out of prison. Ever. They are also considering charging him with Crimes Against Humanity which carry a longer sentence. He will not be let out.

Your desire for revenge does not outweigh the chances of being sentenced to death wrongly. I'd rather those who are convicted rightly to be locked in prison for the rest of their lives than have people executed wrongly.

Irregardless of any desire for revenge.

[reorg]

70. Actually, it's 21 years for murder, not 6 months

What seems crazy and irrational to me is to hand down sentences that no human can possibly serve, like 76 life sentences to be served consecutively and the like.

[fishwax]

71. I don't see how that is cause to support the death penalty

instead of, say, life in prison, which this guy apparently has a good chance of getting ...

[sabrina 1]

72. I oppose the death penalty and am glad Norway and every

other civilized country does also. Something like this among other crimes, are so rare in Norway, maybe because they are a civilized society. Here we are so accustomed to violence, violence by the state, our prison system which is brutal, the death penalty which is barbaric and solves nothing, and our wars, our torture system that it is not surprising we have a such a high crime rate among the population. We are all about punishment rather than improving our society.

We are in the proud company of Saudi Arabia and other brutal regimes when it comes to our system of justice.

Norway will deal far better with this situation than we could even dream of doing. We should watch and learn from them.

How sad that we immediately jump to becoming no better than those whose actions we say we despise when put to the test.

I am very glad to have heard the Norwegian PM's promise that they will not change their society over this. To do what you want would put them on the same downward, into the gutter path taken by this country. I thought that at least Progressive Democrats were hoping to change our direction, not try to drag other more civilized societies along with us.

This man will probably never leave prison. They have other means of keeping him away from the public and from ever being a threat again. They don't have to stoop to his level to do that.

[ZombieHorde]

74. You believe in the death penalty because you don't understand Norway's penal system?

That is pretty funny.

[Horse with no Name]

84. You do realize that Norway is a different country?

:eyes:
But besides that...you do realize there are a lot of options between 21 years and death? Don't you?

[Whisp]

85. I would much prefer one of the parents, or all of them, kill the guy

state executions are not right, street justice is. I certainly would be willing to spend the rest of my days in prison to kill something like this scum.