Norway prisons - private cells, flat screens, mini fridges, windows.

[Liberal_in_LA]

The Super-Lux Super Max
From flat-screen TVs to jogging trails, here's where Norway's mass murderer could end up.

"Both society and the individual simply have to put aside their desire for revenge, and stop focusing on prisons as places of punishment and pain," one Norwegian prison official told the Daily Mail. "Depriving a person of their freedom for a period of time is sufficient punishment in itself without any need whatsoever for harsh prison conditions."

Norway's newest jail may hold rapists and murderers, but Halden Prison -- the country's second largest and most secure facility -- looks more like a posh sleepaway camp. In fact, architects say they purposely tried to avoid an "institutional feel." When it opened in 2010, some news accounts called it the "most humane" prison in the world.

Indeed, one of the many perks at Halden is flat-screen televisions in inmates' rooms. There's no HBO, though, so reruns of Oz and The Wire are contraband. Still, prisoners get private cells with mini-fridges and large windows to let in more sunlight. Here, then, is a quick tour of what luxuries may await Breivik behind bars. (That's a figure of speech, of course: There are no iron bars at Halden.)

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/07/25/the_super_lux_super_max

[sabrina 1]

1. Good for them. A humane society.

Compare what is going on in our prisons today, to this. I'll take their humanity any day.

[Solly Mack]

22. Exactly!

[Agony]

28. DoublePlus++ Good!

What IS our frigging problem?

[Incitatus]

90. NO! We must cause prisoners pain and suffering.

Because it has worked out so well in the US. :sarcasm:

[bluestateguy]

2. 21 years max for a mass murderer is just unconscionable

I can respect a nation that chooses to not have the death penalty, but anything less than life in prison (not a summer camp) is just outrageous.

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. How many times do we have to point to you

that there is a review every five years, and prisoners found to still be a danger to society are kept behind bars... the perp himself does not expect to be free. Doncha think he has a clue?

[malaise]

5. He may face an additional charge- crimes against humanity

and that will give him 30 years but there are reviews and he will probably remain there for the rest of his life

[alcibiades_mystery]

6. That's max before parole opportunities

It's not like they open the door at year 21.

I actually agree with their method.

[sabrina 1]

8. He will never get out. You are reading the usual

US 'revenge is necessary' press designed to make people angry at a more humane society. They have rules that can and will be applied to this killer. I certainly trust them more than I trust this country to deal with people like this. We became torturers and mass murderers after 9/11. No better, in fact worse, than what we said we were fighting.

[Nye Bevan]

13. The burden of proof is on the state to prove that he is still a danger to society.

After 21 years, they have to prove this, in order to keep him locked up, and every 5 years thereafter.

Wouldn't a simple "life without parole" sentence be more appropriate in this case?

[alcibiades_mystery]

15. The problem with that sentence is that once it's instituted

They start handing out to everyone, as the Lw/oP sentences in the US have clearly demonstrated. Everybody says, "But in this case, surely...," just like the people who always say, "I'm usually against the death penalty, but in this case...blah blah blah." It's every case.

Norway has a specific approach and philosophy towards violent crime: they believe in rehabilitation. Will everyone be rehabilitated? No, of course not. Will the "worst" offenders be? Sometimes. So, they valve stays open. In my view, it's the better way. The fact that we sentence juveniles to Life Without is a quite frankly a national disgrace, matched only by the most preposterous medieval justice systems on the planet. Norway has a system that wards off this possibility, which always enters through the "worst" cases. I'm glad they have a safety valve to prevent such social catastrophe.

[kestrel91316]

25. The Norwegians are adults and seem to be running their country AT LEAST

as well as we run the US. I trust them to run their criminal justice system as they see fit.

Paternalism by know-nothing rah-rah Amurkans is inappropriate.

[Maru Kitteh]

74. Finger-wagging by know-it-all xenocentrics is equally inappropriate.

[sudopod]

76. " xenocentrics "

lol, that's such a problem, isn't it.

:sarcasm:

[sabrina 1]

29. No, I think that's a good system actually.

Sometimes people do change, so it would mean those people had no chance of getting out and no incentive to reform. The state should always have the burden of proof. So far, their system seems to work so much better than ours.

I think also, the system teaches people that violence and brutality do not solve problems. And it creates a far better society overall.

That doesn't mean that they will allow someone out who is a threat to society. They seem to have some highly intelligent and educated individuals running their prison system. I have faith in their judgement, especially considering the low crime rate and the low recidivism rate.

Sure it would be simpler and quicker to just have one rule. But it shows how much care they put into every individual's welfare, even their most violent criminals.

This, however, will be a real test of their commitment to what they believe in. They have never had anything like this happen before, not since WW11 anyhow. I hope they will not succumb to fear which will only make incidents like this more rather than less likely.

The very best outcome of this horrible event, to ensure that others do not view him as some kind of hero, or 'warrior' as he wants people to believe, would be for him to change. If he reforms over time there would be no better person to tell anyone who did view him as a hero, just how wrong he was.

[Posteritatis]

40. I like the idea of the burden of proof for such things being on the state. Can't get outraged. (nt)

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

60. I think such proof will be quite easy.

[Fearless]

99. +100000!

[AlabamaLibrul]

75. What's outrageous is that you and others keep telling lies

after the facts have been posted a million times.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

88. THEY. KNOW.

:mad:

[snooper2]

94. Maybe he'll be able to get a personal trainer too

[alcibiades_mystery]

3. So?

It will make the promoters of rape-as-punishment on this board sad, to be sure, but each society gets to decide how it treats its prisoners. Apparently, in Norway, they consider the withholding of freedom sufficient, and don't require - either implicitly or explicitly - further punishments above and beyond that. Oddly enough, Norwegian society isn't plagued by runaway crime.

Wow. Funny how that works.

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. There is more, and we have had few periods of that

they believe in redemption and in getting these people ready to rejoin society. We pay lip service to that.

When we have tried that... it works, and works well... but it never lasts more than ten years.

One anecdotal example since all I remember is a prison in OH... back in the 1980s. It was a low security prison with low security imates. Guess who ran their 911 EMS system? You guessed it. By the time those prisoners left they were fully trained and certified firefighter paramedics, or other trades. Their rates of recidivism was much lower. But people complained WHY should they get them beanies? I mean they are CRIMINALS... they stopped. Take to care a guess at where their rates are these days?

Yep, it was an article in an EMS trade publication that intrigued me. Another thing they had an article on was on taking at risk youth to the morgue... which also lowered their, in this case, entry into the system. I used that to convince a judge...

[PSPS]

7. I wonder how long it will take for the knuckle draggers in the US to be "outraged."

I mean, a proper "real" prison has to inflict torture on its inmates, complete with the routine rape that everyone refers to, almost in a jocular fashion, right? Right?

We could learn a lot from Norway's prison system. But we won't.

[Abq_Sarah]

32. We have a different society and a different culture

What works for Norway wouldn't necessarily work here.

[nomb]

42. True. Norway is oil rich with a population 1/65th of the USA, an avg age of about 40 mostly related

[XemaSab]

57. I wonder if they have prison gangs there

It seems like in our prisons gangs are both a way to survive in prison and a way to indoctrinate a criminal further into crime.

Somehow I doubt they put up with that shit there.

[nomb]

65. They apparently do, but they appear in the literature mostly as urban non-norwegians

And they do have a famous biker gang scene in Norway, and throughout the region as well.

[sabrina 1]

98. When it has been tried here it does work.

But since Reagan and his Law and Order regime convinced people that revenge and punishment is how to treat people, Americans can't even imagine anything different to the horrible, cruel system we have. And it spreads throughout the society. The lack of respect for life, for dignity and it diminishes us as human beings. And even Democrats now have been indoctrinated into thinking there is no other way.

[alcibiades_mystery]

9. Norway extremely safe, extremely low recidivism

Maybe, just maybe, our own system of punishment actually produces the crime that it's supposed to prevent?

Hmmm...

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2011/07/25/277771/norway-is-safe/

- Norway Has Some Of The Lowest Murder Rates In The World: In 2009, Norway had .6 intentional homicides per 100,000 people. In the same year, the United States had 5 murders per 100,000 people, meaning that the U.S. proportionally has 8 times as many homicides.

- Norway’s Incarceration Rate Is A Fraction Of That Of The United States: 71 out of every 100,000 Norwegian citizens is incarcerated. In the United States, 743 out of every 100,000 citizens was incarcerated in 2009. The U.S. has the world’s highest incarceration rate.

- Norway’s Prisoner Recidivism Rate Is Much Lower Than The United States’: The recidivism rate for prisoners in Norway is around 20 percent. Meanwhile, it’s estimated that 67 percent of America’s prisoners are re-arrested and 52 percent are re-incarcerated.

-------------------SNIP----------------------

Looks like their system actually, you know, works?

[sabrina 1]

12. Thank you, was going to look up the recidivism rate. That makes

sense and whenever true rehab is tried here, it works also. I remember seeing a documentary on prisons around the world, and what works and what does not.

There was one prison here where the Warden instituted a program that trained inmates to be divers who worked on cleaning the bottoms of huge ships, oil tankers etc. The course was incredibly tough, physically and mentally.

To make a long story short, those who signed up and succeeded in completing the training, were able to get well-paying jobs when they got out, some of them who were followed for a while, eg, were able to help family members who otherwise might have taken a wrong path, provide for their children etc. Some became instructors at the prison. Mostly, they earned respect and once they had it, they wanted to keep it. And airc, none of them ended back in prison.

[hifiguy]

41. Here, prisons are run and administered in a manner

that basically teaches the incarcerated to be "better" criminals.

I suspect that the Norwegians are on to something far more constructive than the US prison-industrial complex.

[Cali_Democrat]

58. "The U.S. has the world’s highest incarceration rate"

That is so pathetic. The highest in the WORLD! America is not the land of the free. America is the land of people in shackles.

[FreeState]

11. K&R

[stevedeshazer]

14. And, it works.

I'd like to see Sheriff Joe Arpaio in a Norwegian prison.

[sabrina 1]

17. Yes, even he may not be beyond rehabilitation.

Sending him to a prison here is only likely to make him more of a threat to society than he already is.

[Posteritatis]

39. And even if he is, a justice system shouldn't be focused around the most extreme cases anyway. (nt)

[Ruby the Liberal]

20. I have seen the outtakes from SiCKO on this.

Forgive me if I think that this asshole is worth rehabilitating. 76+ lives is beyond repair, IMO.

Color me however you want. It is what it is.

[kestrel91316]

26. That is for NORWAY to be the judge of, and not you or me.

Last I heard, they were a free and independent nation.

[Ruby the Liberal]

27. Not telling them what to do, just offering my opinion on rehabilitation

and the fact that not everyone is a candidate (or deserves the opportunity). So sue me. ;)

[Mimosa]

63. Ruby, I'm with you.

I think that's why some of us have a need to believe in 'cosmic justice'. Because human beings can't get it right. ;)

[Bluebear]

33. You said it brother!

[stevedeshazer]

16. This is Norway's system, courtesy of Michael Moore.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01mTKDaKa6Q

[TheKentuckian]

18. Our counter-productive system has roughly a ten thousand year track record of failure.

It just doesn't work. We must get out of the punishment business.

[FLPanhandle]

19. Almost worth committing a crime to get into it.

Almost.

[FreeState]

21. If your American yes, if your Norwegian no it's not worth it n/t

[Bluebear]

23. Go post this on some right-wing sites, that will get them all lathered up.

[Posteritatis]

38. Does the same here - witness the people who still don't get how sentencing works there. (nt)

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

62. No, they get it. They're aware of the extensions thing. But spreading the lie helps their agenda. nt

[sasha031]

24. it looks like a rehab

[tkmorris]

48. Because that is PRECISELY what it is

Rehab of a different sort to be sure, but rehab nonetheless.

[Union Scribe]

30. No wonder the motherfucker didn't kill himself.

But no HBO? Attica!!!!!

[treestar]

31. I agree that the deprivation of freedom is enough

When I hear conservatives refer to it as three hots and a cot, as if it's just a place to go when you don't have enough money, it makes me sick.

[Kingofalldems]

34. An IKEA prison

[Morizovich]

35. Kick and Recommend

[nomb]

36. I respect the Norwegian way, but......you have to see this prison pic from the article --->

That's the prisoners personal trainer. No joke.

[Liberal_in_LA]

49. for contrast - pictures of American Prison

/
Chino

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-oxnMVRgW-q0/TgitJectpII/AAAAAAAAAEY/c8L0unfDk2w/s1600/american+prison.jpg

[Mimosa]

70. Yikes.

Can't imagine why anybody would ever do anything to land himself back in prison. *eek*

[SoCalDem]

37. If a person (incarcerated) is to be freed someday

it seems like a good idea to "prepare" them to live a decent life when they get out. Perhaps the incarceration time is better spent "civilizing" criminals rather than punishing them, while depriving them of freedom.

Recidivism is probably not as high when people leave prison a better person.

Obviously, people who are criminally insane probably need to be in forever, but for the ones who can be rehabilitated, it's probably better for society to do that.

[kenny blankenship]

43. They may want to outsource this one. He may attract groups who would want to spring him.

Norway's prison system is a match for their low crime rate and vanishingly low incidence of violent crime - in other words it's not built for a mass killer like Breivik. But there are many countries with far more appropriate facilities. The United States for example enjoys a comparative advantage and global leadership in the field of incarcerating dangerous terrorists through our decision to be a early market entrant. Hell, we've even put people who haven't done anything wrong at all into some hellish, inescapable and unassailable prisons. We could easily find room for Mr. Kid Killer in Guantanamo (since we aren't closing it) or in any one of our SuperMax Federal Prisons.

[War Horse]

56. He's a hero to some, obviously

And a thoroughly coordinated attack to spring him might very well succeed.

I've seen the comments on Beck's blog and on sites like gates of vienna, he certainly has fans... but parts of the "counter jihadosphere" seem to think of him as a liability as well - who knows if they want to take him out...

/wild speculation

[geardaddy]

44. Yeah, but the real punishment is that they feed you lutefisk

three meals a day every day of the year.

K and R

[Mimosa]

64. LOL!

Norwegian and most Nordic foods are YUCKY! My partner's dad was Norwegian.

Things Norwegians hate: spices, seasonings, gardenias or anything with pronounced flavors or scents! LOL

[War Horse]

45. Inmates are still confined to a pretty small space

for the better part of 24 hours. Concrete walls, thick steel door. Take a look around you, think about your freedom to go outside and do whatever you want (ever felt the walls closing in on you?), before you dismiss this as "not punishment".

And btw, that clip from MM: That's rehabilitation, basically. Not factually wrong, but hardly representative.

[War Horse]

46. Breivik might also not be safe among the general population

in prison. He massacred children, after all. There's "internal justice" in prisons all over the planet.

[GSLevel9]

47. better living conditions than many US citizens....

I think it's safe to say that a criminal should NEVER live better than his victim.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

68. So murderers of rich people and poor people should be treated differently?

[GSLevel9]

80. You read me too literally

Prisoners should have a quality of life lower than society as a whole. Which means block walls, metal cot, basic food and that's about it.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

87. Go tell the Norwegians how wrong-headed they are.

And how better they all would be if their justice system was US-like.

[lumberjack_jeff]

50. Okay. So how well does it work?

http://www.postchronicle.com/news/original/Recidivism_Rate_In_Norway_Are_Easy_Prisons_Why_It_s_Low__20110727.shtml

Their crime and recidivism rates are infinitesmal.

In the US, 753 people per 100,000 (or 2.3 million) are in jail.
In Norway, 69 people per 100,000 (or 2200) are in jail.

Norweigans are safer from criminals because their prison system doesn't manufacture them.

[slackmaster]

52. It seems their general population doesn't generate nearly as many first-time offenders, too

It's a very different society, with a much smaller and less diverse population than ours.

[lumberjack_jeff]

55. Don't blame it on diversity.

They don't generate nearly as many first-time offenders because unlike the US, their parents aren't criminals.

We're doing all of the right things if we want most of our population in jail.

[nomb]

59. They're 1/65th of our pop, rich on oil, interrelated and old with a birthrate below sustainability.

The crime rate follows.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

69. Why that strange emphasis on "OIL rich"?

Is it any different that "diamonds rich" or "tech industry rich" or "banking rich" if it brings a similar amount of money?

[Mimosa]

71. Nothing wrong with the facts.

Until very recently Norway was monocultural. Their population was 4 million, now is a bit more. I suppose they brought in immigrants to perform manual labor they no longer wanted to do. The big money came from North Sea oil.

[nomb]

72. Emphasis is on rich, oil is just the means. The wealth is significant, is cash, and makes a differe

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

73. So the answer to my question in the message body is ''no''.

[nomb]

78. You are incorrect. Wealth from oil is vast and leisurely, tech wealth or even banking is hard work a

hard work and even puny in comparison.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

85. Lots of other countries in that region have little oil and are still low on crime.

The common factor is being social democracies, not oil. You don't like that, but it's the truth.

[slackmaster]

81. Your reply confirms that diversity is an issue

The US population has a broader cross-section of people who are already criminals and are inclined to raise families.

[lumberjack_jeff]

84. Oooh. Lackluster dodge.

"Diversity" as meant by your previous post had nothing to do with criminality.

[slackmaster]

92. I'm using a more formal definition of diversity rather than the broadly accepted PC one

Measurements of human traits of all kinds fall along more or less normal distributions. That includes negative traits like criminality and psychopathy.

In general, the larger a population the more people in it who are out in the extremes. A large population is likely to have not only more potential mass murderers, but also more extreme ones than would a small population. Larger groups of people are inherently more diverse than smaller groups are.

[EstimatedProphet]

95. "already criminals"?

Born that way, perhaps?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

66. Number Two.

[shoutinfreud]

97. Uh, that has nothing to do with it. Canada has an extremely diverse society

And lower crime than the US because of it's socialist programs and penal system based on rehabilitation, not punishment.

[fishwax]

54. "Norweigans are safer from criminals because their prison system doesn't manufacture them."

:thumbsup:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

67. Not to mention their society at large.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[slackmaster]

51. "Prison population total: 3,533 (as of 30.6.2007, including pre-trial detainees,

remand prisoners, and 133 prisoners serving their sentence in treatment centres or hospitals)
Prison population rate: 75 people out of 100,000 (as of 30.6.2007)
Pre-trial detainees/remand prisoners: 19.8% of prison population (as of 30.6.2007)
Female prisoners: 5.5% of prison population (as of 30.6.2007)
Juvenile prisoners: 0.3% of prison population (as of 30.6.2007, prisoners under 18)
Foreign prisoners: 19.5% of prison population (as of 30.6.2007)
Official capacity of prison system: 3,511 (as of 30.6.2007, excluding places in treatment centres)
Occupancy level: 96.8% (as of 30.6.2007, excluding prisoners in treatment centres)

http://www.howardleague.org/fileadmin/howard_league/user/pdf/Commission/Briefing_on_Norway.pdf

...The United States comes in first, too, on a more meaningful list from the prison studies center, the one ranked in order of the incarceration rates. It has 751 people in prison or jail for every 100,000 in population. (If you count only adults, one in 100 Americans is locked up.)...

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/23/world/americas/23iht-23prison.12253738.html

[fishwax]

53. seems to work n/t

[Cali_Democrat]

61. Good for them. n/t

[Critters2]

77. Good. A friend of mine is in a medium security prison here,

and is bored out of her brain. There are programs she doesn't qualify for, because she's too old, scored too high on an educational aptitude test, or is a class X felon. She has a job--mopping the floor of her cell block--which takes all of an hour and a half, sometimes less, each day. That and meals, and bedtime are her ONLY scheduled activities. She's depressed, lonely, frightened, and, again, bored. She's getting no rehabilitation, and no services to help her re-enter society, which she will do in about 4 years. I can't see how keeping her bored and frustrated benefits the state. There are opportunities to make her life better, but they are being missed.

I think Norway is onto something here.

[NYC Liberal]

79. There is a balance between this and US prisons.

From the article: "Depriving a person of their freedom for a period of time is sufficient punishment in itself "

Not for violent criminals it's not. The US prison system is terrible, but there does need to be punishment when someone commits a horrible crime, they should not be given personal trainers, access to a professional recording studio, etc.

As I said, there is a balance.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

82. And they will have less murders and less issues with those prisoners than the US does.

Prisons should rehabilitate people, not make them worse criminals. I'm so not against this. And I'm hard core when it comes to criminal justice.
Duckie

[slackmaster]

83. Maybe Norwegians are just nicer than we are

:grouphug:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

86. They are nicer because they are raised nicer.

For example, they aren't taught that progressive taxation, secularism, worker protection, reproductive freedom, science, social safety nets etc. make Baby Jesus cry.

So yeah. They're nicer.

[Lucian]

89. Those prisoners are living better than I am.

[misund]

96. Come one over

Why don't you immigrate? Norway is pretty awesome outside the penal system as well.

I'm biased, of course, being norwegian and all.

[sabrina 1]

101. I would love to go there. It is a beautiful country and

seems to take care of its people. I haven't met too many people here from Norway. I think they would be very unhappy here. Probably even shocked at the brutality of our prison system, eg, and the unwillingness of our elected representatives to take care of the elderly and the poor and disabled.

And welcome to DU btw :hi:

[white_wolf]

91. Good I'm glad to see some countries treat prisoners as humans unlike we do.

Also I think it should be noted that 20% recidivism rate, while ours is around 60% so clearly their humane approach works especially since they focus on rehabilitation and not revenge like we do.

[Blue_Tires]

93. One of the dozens of ironies of this case

that the liberal society that he wrote 1500 pages against and wanted to blow up is obligated to give him protection, a fair trial and humane treatment...

[Fearless]

100. Welcome to a nation where reform is MORE important than punishment...

Welcome to the Enlightenment several hundred years late.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

102. Wouldn't want the poor little mass murderer to feel depressed now, would we?

:puke:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

103. Then never go to that awful, awful country. Boycott them.

Patronize real countries, like Saudi Arabia. THEY know how to treat criminals. :eyes:

[Starbucks Anarchist]

104. I actually have been there.

Nice country.

And clearly, since I don't think this scum should be imprisoned in such a relatively nice place with amenities more befitting a hotel room, then that obviously means I must agree with oppressive regimes like Saudi Arabia. Your sense of logic is truly a gift to the world.

:eyes:

[ZombieHorde]

105. All of the pro-decent treatment replies make me happy! nt