Here's the thing: We ALL use the Government and its services

[MichiganVote]

And that's ok. Its SUPPOSED to be used. Civilized societies have governments that are used by its citizens every single day. And that's me and that's you.

You don't have to be on Social Security, use Veterans Benefits, work in the Military or receive Welfare to participate in the benefits your government give to you and your family.

Drive or own a car- Your government aided in its design, building and delivery. It has created laws for the public benefit for the use of that car or bus or train or bike for you and your fellow citizens. Every dollar that goes into your mode of transportation is or has been a part of the government.

Every school, yes every school, has created requirements to assure that children have the potential of being adequately educated. You and 50million other people may differ on the specifics of that education, but its there and its used and it benefits our entire society.

Water-check
Air-check
Food-check
Health-check
Security-check
Communication-check

So for anyone who says the government sucks-you're probably right-SOME OF THE TIME. Which means you're probably WRONG some of the time too. Don't like the way things are going? Good. Make your government work H-A-R-D-E-R by harassing these representative offices. That's right. Harassment. Courteous, persistent, unrelenting harassment. Quit worrying about whether they are listening to you-listen to yourselves! People are willing to settle for shutting down the very thing that each and every single person in this country USES everyday????

That IS stupid.

[robinlynne]

1. Politicians and banks use it a lot more than we do.

[MichiganVote]

3. Really? Prove it. Prove to me that people who do their banking do not use

the regulations that your government has put in place for them whenever and wherever they choose. Prove to me that politicians do more with commerce thru the banks than the collective body of consumers who move money in and out of banks and other finance areas every single day.

You may be looking at the hand outs and the give backs for banks. Alright. So there is a difference of opinion on what should or should not be given/changed etc. That still does not mean that an entire government should be shut down.

It means that the shady banksters and the wanna be in bed with a hooker politicians NEED to stop relying on the American people to just roll over. That's what they expect because that is what we have taught them we will do.

[robinlynne]

11. I was referring to the TARPs and the money in politics.

I love the things governmenet does for the people. i'm all for much more government regulation of everything. and schools and helathcare.

What I'm saying is that most of our tax dollars are going into the banks and politicians pockets, not to the people.

[MichiganVote]

15. I think much more is and has been funneled into the military for decades.

[robinlynne]

16. nOPE. lOok at the charts. The tax cuts were worth 5 times more than the military spending.

Not supporting military spending, but the truth is the tax cuts are what is plunging our country into an economic abyss.

i think willt might be th eposter who posted the charts, not certain. They were on Du many times.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

2. That's what I want to know. Who started the bs that govt was bad?

I'll tell you who: corporations and private business owners.

Govt is representative. We determine who will be there and what they shall do. Corporations? They do what they want and we have no say.

[MichiganVote]

4. Short answer: Whiners. From any quarter, they will be the whiners.

We do have a say about corporations. But we have been sleeping and they rely on that. So as they say--Wake Up!

[Sarah Ibarruri]

5. How did we fall asleep? Do you think it has to do with the American myths?

Are American myths used to fool us into a false sense of right wing okayness as long as we see ourselves as special and the world as us versus them?

[MichiganVote]

6. We got too comfortable with our toys and took our eye off the ball.

We started sending checks to organizations that support our views in place of mail and phone calls. We let representatives skate away from seeing us in person in place of colored mailers at election time. We bought into fear and they fed it to us over and over again.

We let the media tell us what to think and we let the corporations tell us what to watch on the boob tube. Fat people losing weight and shows about serial killers with the same plot over and over again in place of thought provoking drama? Come on.

We said, yeah we can live like the Jones's, all we have to do is put it all on credit. Everytime we have complained to each other instead of to them, we lost, they gained.

This is about power now. We have the power to influence our government but we don't use it. We want it to be instant and its not and never will be.

We pay for this government and we use it everyday. The least, the very least, this Congress can and should do, is keep it open 24/7 for us.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

9. I lived in Spain for a long time, and people over there protest things they don't like

I think it's because towns and cities are so dense that people run into one another and people are super sociable. They're not as attached to TV. They talk to others, feel with others, are more aware of REALITY, and feel more protected because they can count on others, and everyone is just more empathetic and realistic, reachable and accessible by others.

When I lived in Spain, I was never attached to the TV. Just, never. And they did have interesting shows, and even gossip, and sensationalism (tho definitely not even an iota compared with here). When I lived in Spain, I was always with others. I'd get home, people would be outside, I'd (have to) say hi, get invited here and there, everyone would congregate either outside in the summer, or in the (family) pub in the winter.

Here, I go home to my isolated place and turn on the TV just so I can hear someone's voice, and I know for a fact other Americans do the same thing because I talk to other Americans at work, and I see them walk into their homes and not come out again until the next workday. And then of course, we all work so many hours, and commuting takes so long because of sprawl, that there's no time left for anything, and we're exhausted from work so we just hide.

This leads to RELIANCE UPON TV! There is nothing else.

In our population we can't even depend on one another to protest or anything.

[MichiganVote]

13. Yes I agree. Its an irony that people both want and don't want to get involved with others.

To be sure our heavy work life in the US contributes to our isolationism. When we meet on the net, as you and I are now doing, we can turn one or the other off at the press of a button. Obviously that doesn't occur in Spain. :)

We make ourselves vulnerable to dis-ease in the US.

[kestrel91316]

18. I am a private business owner and, believe it or not, a loyal liberal Dem.

I had nothing to do with starting that meme.

For the record, my 8 years of college were at a STATE-SUPPORTED LAND GRANT UNIVERSITY, lol.

[MichiganVote]

22. Its an argument of convenience among those who want to segregate citizens

in place of recognizing commonality. Or, simply put, divide and conquer with idiotic untruths.

[bhikkhu]

7. You forgot roads

Pretty hard to imagine what kind of transportation system we would have if we didn't have an excellent government built and maintained system.

[MichiganVote]

8. And I'd like it to be better. At least in Michigan.:)

[WinkyDink]

10. It began with Ronnie "Government is the problem" Reagan, on exactly 1/20/81:

In his first inaugural address on January 20, 1981, which Reagan himself wrote,<99> he addressed the country's economic malaise arguing: "In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problems; government is the problem."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Reagan
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.bartleby.com/124/pres61.html
~~~a tax system which penalizes successful achievement

~~~It is time to reawaken this industrial giant, to get government back within its means, and to lighten our punitive tax burden. And these will be our first priorities, and on these principles, there will be no compromise.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Reagan income tax rates:
The changes to the federal tax code were much more substantial. The top marginal tax rate on individual income was reduced from 70 percent to 28 percent. The corporate income tax rate was reduced from 48 percent to 34 percent. The individual tax brackets were indexed for inflation. And most of the poor were exempted from the individual income tax. These measures were somewhat offset by several tax increases. An increase in Social Security tax rates legislated in 1977 but scheduled for the eighties was accelerated slightly. Some excise tax rates were increased, and some deductions were reduced or eliminated.

More important, there was a major reversal in the tax treatment of business income. A complex package of investment incentives was approved in 1981 only to be gradually reduced in each subsequent year through 1985. And in 1986 the base for the taxation of business income was substantially broadened, reducing the tax bias among types of investment but increasing the average effective tax rate on new investment. It is not clear whether this measure was a net improvement in the tax code. Overall, the combination of lower tax rates and a broader tax base for both individuals and business reduced the federal revenue share of GDP from 20.2 percent in fiscal 1981 to 19.2 percent in fiscal 1989.

http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc1/Reaganomics.html

[divvy]

12. Wrong ,....... Billionaires dont use our services.

They are funding the GOP and the baggers. They own the media. They want to destroy public schools, medicare, medicaid, Social Security because they don't use those services.

They are so rich that they can afford to eat food that has not been poisoned, drink bottled water, and breathe filtered air. Why would they care?

The only thing they really care about is not paying taxes. The republican bastard believes in a royality that has NO social obligations whatsoever. Especially to those little people who made them rich.

[MichiganVote]

14. They use the airports, they use the IRS, they use or are subject to numerous regulations that

affect their daily lives. Anything from environmental laws to the type of toilet they have. They, and others, may not like it, but they are still a part of the "use" of the government.

"Social obligation" is a value laden concept. I'm not sure that anyone can secure agreement on that type of thing. But other than following the laws in the country, not sure the government has defined what a social obligation is or is not.

[divvy]

17. No, they have private jets, chauffered limosines and don't pay taxes

do you have any other ideas?

[MichiganVote]

20. Private jets are required to connect with the FAA also, airports, local taxes

Whatever.

:eyes:

[bhikkhu]

23. Try doing business without established contract law

that's one of the problems that led to the constitutional congress - the need to have a strong and enforceable standard of contract law. The wealthy argued for a strong central government back then, because the business environment was stagnating without it.

[Wait Wut]

19. Damn...can't rec.

This is exactly the argument I use with my Con/Rep friends (and the occasional leftie). Of course, they reply with a "but..." which turns out to be a mish mash of talking points and bullshit.

Anyway, great post and equally great follow-up comments.

[MichiganVote]

21. Yeah, logic, information, and rational discussion are a tough slog these days.