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white_wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-29-11 03:33 PM
Original message
A question on logical fallacy
I've had a few debates with conservatives and they often bring up an argument involving what the founder fathers would have wanted. Now, ignoring that most Conservatives have no clue what the Founders actually wrote and said, isn't bringing them up at all a logical fallacy? Doesn't invoking their name to support your argument fall under the appeal to authority category:http:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

Secondly when I was debating someone over the TN mosque issue I said only a truly secular state can guarantee freedom of religion, since it won't give special treatment to any religion. His response was: you mean like Nazi Germany? No thanks." Isn't that the very definition of a starwman argument since most people would define a secular state as something closer to modern Europe or the U.S. and not Nazi Germany? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
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Shandris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-29-11 03:35 PM
Response to Original message
1. Correct on both. (n/t)
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-29-11 03:37 PM
Response to Original message
2. I think you are right on both
If they go to a particular founder's writing they might have something about what that individual thought. Like the Bible, both sides can do that. And take it out of context, too. Or forget this is no longer a rural nation.
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JoePhilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-29-11 03:42 PM
Response to Original message
3. They recreated God, Jesus, and the Founding Fathers, in their own image.
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dmallind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-29-11 03:52 PM
Response to Original message
4. Right as written but it would have been good to ask in return:
How many completely secular states have "God is with us" on their military uniforms?
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immoderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-29-11 03:54 PM
Response to Original message
5. Recently in an argument with a conservative, I said heat was a form of energy...
He said, "no it's not."

I assured him that it was established science, and cited my teaching credentials which include middle school science. So he calls me on appeal to authority. How can this be resolved without a dictionary, a science book, wiki, a physicist? I think if I could channel Einstein, he would have called foul on that.

Of course when he's making a point he bombards me with all sorts of shit.

Hitler built his Nazi party around Catholicism. It served his religious needs well.


---imm
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saras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-29-11 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Science isn't "appeal to authority" - he is missing the point, probably intentionally
Science gives him the instructions as to how to answer the question for himself, and the tools to evaluate the way in which anyone else has already addressed the question. It is as close as one can get to the diametric opposite of "appeal to authority". Compare the way an appeal to authority works if the authority changes their mind to what happens when science "changes its mind".

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immoderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-29-11 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. He is missing the point, but it's not intentional, at least not consciously.
Edited on Fri Jul-29-11 04:48 PM by immoderate
He is a true believer. Basic right wing "free market" capitalist, with a twist or two. Doesn't believe in democracy. Cites Plato about it. But has no suggestions about what should replace it.

Has grudgingly accepted global warming, but not to the point that we should pay attention to it.

Our discussions reach a point where he has to confront his cognitive dissonance. And then it devolves into a word salad about my motives and biases. Which I confront, and then it's an admission that my superior debating skills are defeating his more valid arguments.

With true believers, the stronger evidence you present to them, the more it fortifies their irrational convictions.

Like I said, it's not intentional -- it's mental!

--imm
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damntexdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-29-11 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. The evidence is not "authority," so appeals to compendia of evidence are not appeals to authority.
Further, science relies on consensus judgements, based on empirical evidence. So reliance on the "authority" of science is not a logical appeal to authority, rather to the best current judgement on the state of and interpretation of the evidence.

And authorities differ. Scientific authorities ultimately rely upon evidence and wide consensus on it and its interpretation. Moreover, scientific authority acknowledges that it can be in error. By contrast, the 'appeal to authority' involved in logical error involves either an appeal to some authority qua authority, with no external support, or it involves an endless chain of appeals to authority, each depending upon one another, with little or no empirical evidence to support any of them.
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immoderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-29-11 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. We didn't have to go there. He was disputing a common definition.
You should have seen the disconnect when I told him that temperature is a statistic.

All reason goes out the window when dealing with a true believer.

--imm
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KurtNYC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-29-11 03:55 PM
Response to Original message
6. So he thinks Nazi Germany had freedom of religion ?!
In my experience most stupid people don't KNOW that they are stupid.
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white_wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-29-11 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. No he claimed Nazi Germany was a secular state because he confuses secularist with atheism.
However didn't Hitler make an alliance with the Catholic church?
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Make7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-29-11 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. Nazi Germany didn't exactly treat all religions equally.
A secular state is supposed to be largely neutral on matters of religion. Genocide against followers of a specific religion seems to deviate from neutrality to an extreme degree.
 
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-29-11 04:33 PM
Response to Original message
9. # 1 is appeal to authority. # 2 is a mixture of counter-example (not fallacy) and Godwin's/polemic
First of all, what do you mean by the term "truly secular"? I smell a no true Scotsman fallacy in the making.

Also, you're appealing to authority when you say "since most people would define..."

My understanding of fascist views on religion are that to a Fascist religion is unimportant except as a an expression of a nation's (i.e. ethnicity's) identity. In Italy and Spain, both countries having been steeped in a tradition of particularly ardent Catholicism, the Fascist relationship to religion was uncomplicated. Italian Fascists and Spanish Fascists were supportive of the Church as a social institution, however politically they did consider religion subordinate to the Fascist state, which they considered the political agent of the nation/ethnic group and the expression of the nation's will. The relationship was somewhat reciprocal, as the Church considered the propagation of traditional Italian and Spanish culture favorably in both states. Therefore it is hard to argue that these two countries were secular. Germany is more complicated. Having been the site of Europe's deadliest religious war in the 1600s, religious identity has generally been an impediment to national unity for the Germans. Different rulers of unified Germany have had different policies to deal with it. Bismarck pursued a policy known as Kulturkampf, which sought to minimize political activity by the Catholic Church within Germany. For example, marriage was declared to be a civil ceremony, and only recognized as such. On the other hand, part of the Kulturkampf was also legal persecution of Catholics. It should be noted that Bismarck's policy effectively eliminated the possibility of a Large Germany (Germany+Austria, a state for all the German speaking people which would have been at least 50% Catholic) and settled the debate in favor of a Small Germany (a Germany that was comfortably 2/3 Protestant). The Nazis were interested in a Large Germany, and although the Vatican was no longer as big a political player in the 1930 as they were in the 1870s, Nazi demands for tight control of political institutions were stronger than Bismarck's. They pursued a more neutral policy than Bismarck and were not intrusive in the religious lives of the citizens unless you were a "Bibelforscher" (Jehova's Witness), too much of a zealot to be reconciled with the state (think of people like Fred Phelps or the Amish, Quakers, Shakers and other groups who just don't do the whole embracing secular authority thing), or Jewish (which for the Nazis was more a matter of ethnic hatred rather than a religious issue). Furthermore, the Nazis were ambivalent about Christianity as a whole, seeing it as something foreign (and of Jewish origin) that had been imposed on Germans by the Western European missionaries. As a result some Nazis viewed a revival of paganism as more in keeping with the "expression of the Nation's identity". The state itself did not care to get bogged down in conflict, and thus took a stance of secularity.

While I think that secular states generally do a better job allowing religious freedom, I don't think the condition of secularity is sufficient to guarantee it. The state must also be tolerant of the non-secular.
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-29-11 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. I don't necessarily agree. See below. n/t
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-29-11 05:31 PM
Response to Original message
15. The appeal to authority might not be a fallacy.
Depends on what their appeal consists of and what they use it for. Your example is ambiguous.

They might be saying that Jefferson wanted high property taxes to encourage more equitable distribution of unworked land. Therefore we should have such a system; or even, therefore it should be read into the Constitution. Eh. Jefferson wanted it at one point in his life. So what?

Or they might be saying based on Jefferson's diary what he understand "inalienable rights" to mean, which could well be important in understanding part of the Declaration. We look at dictionaries from the time to inform us about what a word would have meant--it doesn't mean that the word necessarily had any of the definitions, but if one definition fits well that's the way to bet. It's why we look at legislative history, at commentaries and the arguments that were taking place when the Constitution or amendments were being written and passed. The alternative is still an appeal to authority--"I'm the authority, although I know nothing at all about the topic."

These authorities provide evidence. Then we get to argue about the validity of the authority, the relative weight to be given, etc., etc. In the same way every novel Greek text from 100 A.D. is studied by New Testament scholars, every Semitic inscription studied by Semiticists. They provide evidence, and in some causes are appealed to as evidence sufficient for overturning some hypothesis. You should see how Slavists used to go ga-ga over new birchbark documents from Novgorod, before they became numerous and redundant.

Let's say I'm a translator. I've been given some documents to translate. I need to get them into English. Let's say that they're part of a Russian rocket engine design; the Russian designed it and have been building it to spec, but we have to replicate the production line in the US. I read them and I don't understand them. Or, rather, I think I understand them but I want to be sure. After all, it's rocket science.

I ask around. A bunch of native speakers and translators scratch their heads. They understand it differently, or they find it confusing. I'm using them as authorities. They've flopped.

I contact people that were engineers on the Russian project. I track down other documents involved in the production of Russian aerospace engineering. I consult the Web and look at sites that offer specialized parts manufacture.

I produce my translation. I tell my editor that the "spline" that the glossary says is the translation for this word is actually a K-joint, a really nifty kind of thing if you're working at truly high pressures. I find out that the "select" nylon thread wasn't a grade of thread--they actually would order a crate of nylon thread, picked out the few that suitable for their project, and toss the rest. That, yes, when it says that 2 liters of pure ethanol were required for this step, at the end only 100 ml were used while the rest was to be "reserved for quality control" it meant that the supervisor took it home for the weekend binge.

On what authority did I make the translations? My own? Hardly. Did I rely just on the text? No. "Volodya over there was an engineer on a related project. He said that's what they did to get their nylon thread. This American website offers K-joints, and if you look at the schematic you'll see they match up reasonably well." In other words, I went to *other* authorities to find out what words and practices were, so that I could understand the text.

This isn't so much an appeal to authority as it is obtaining evidence that I otherwise know. It's not saying, "Mr. Smith says that the amendment means this; therefore it must." It's looking at the understanding of people involved at the time, who have information on the matter, and informing my opinion and argument. I'm not likely to go against them and say that the text can't mean what they say it means. But I have gotten answers, questioned it, asked them to think about it more and gotten an "Aha! I was wrong. It means..." out of them.

Now, it *can* be taken to an extreme. I wouldn't allow Volodya to tell me that when it says "take part B and insert it into slot C, fixing with cotter pin D" should, because of what he saw, actually be translated "grind part B to make rod C to insert into groove D."

When arguing with others who invoke the Founding Fathers and such, the arguments run from the trite, real appeals to authority to adducing evidence. Sometimes it's hard to distinguish, esp. when the evidence is somebody around at the time saying what the author intended or what the ratifiers discussed. Then it's possible that the authority's evidence is actually little more than a dictum.

At the same time appeals to authority can be useful simply because reality and time are finite. If you can say, "Einstein said" and the following has to do with physics, even if at first glance you think it's a crock of crap you may want to consider the appeal to authority. He's not always right, Einstein, but he's enough of an authority that his statement should trigger a reconsideration. Things having the form of fallacy aren't always inappropriate or wrong. If, however, at the end the math really says Einstein was wrong, then you go with the math, but if you don't have the math chops to handle proving or disproving what he said, you're stuck with authority. Sometimes fallacy's the best you can do.

=============

I don't take the second to be a strawman argument. I also think that most "no true Scotsman" "fallacies" aren't so much fallacies as definitions in disguise. After all, they're expostulations about what should be, not arguing that such-and-such isn't the case.

I also think that you're trying to have a specific kind of definition of "secular" because you want to finagle your definition so that your point's entailed. The US Federal government is fairly secular, although it has a kind of ceremonial religious form at time and is friendly towards religion; American society need not be secular. The French government is secular, but it's fairly hostile to religions and, indeed, the country as a whole is fairly secular. Nazi Germany had a fairly secular government, to all outward appearances; it's religious observances weren't actually Xian in private. In a way, they treated all religions equally--"What are you going to do to serve our ends?"--which means from the religionist's point of view they were all treated differently.

Secular just means "of this world" (a bit too etymologically correct, that stab at a definition)) or "without religion." That can be good, bad, or indifferent. The problem is that if you say secular states guarantee freedom of religion you have to remember that the bare plural is a bit ambiguous in English. So the listener isn't entirely unjustified in inferring "all secular states guarantee freedom of religion"--yeah, that might be a fallacy, but maybe not. In which case a single counterexample falsifies your claim. If you say it's only secular states that guarantee freedom of religion then raising Nazi Germany is an abbreviated counterargument--okay, secular states, but be more specific, it's not *just* the fact that they're secular and might it not be something else entirely? Perhaps you mean a "modern secular state" or a "liberal secular state"? Then might not a "liberal religious state" do a good job? Dunno. Not my argument, no interest in it.
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Sirveri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-30-11 01:30 AM
Response to Original message
16. Not a strawman but poisoning the well or guilt by association.
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/poisoning-the-well.html
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/guilt-by-association.html

guilt fits a bit better.
"You think that 1+1=2. But, Adolf Hitler, Charles Manson, Joseph Stalin, and Ted Bundy all believed that 1+1=2. So, you shouldn't believe it."
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