Hypothetically, if we were to have a Democratic Underground Summer Camp for kids

[jtuck004]

2 weeks in the summer. Call it whatever, maybe the FDR Future Leader's camp - obviously and unabashedly liberal. Maybe teach some details that were ommitted from their life textbooks?

Maybe just take 5th and 10th graders, or all comers in an age range? Would have to be sure and get a good cross section of incomes).

What would a good curriculum look like? Books?

Do such opportunities exist already?

(Thinking about something like that for unemployed adults, but that's another post).

[handmade34]

1. I'm in

let's start organizing

[Critters2]

2. Lots of community-building and sharing activities. nt

[Kceres]

3. Great idea!

There are plenty of "leadership camps" out there, but I am not aware of any specifically progressive empowerment camps. Think of all the breakout session opportunities! We need a think tank about this, jtuck004.

[seabeyond]

4. duers with a summper camp for kids? kids wouldnt get anything but unhealthy kiddy food

while the adults ate alone to enjoy the experience. not a chance in hell i would be sending my kids to some of the duers i have read of late.

[handmade34]

5. nothing but

homegrown organic goodies with all ages participating at my camp... I have a few acres in Vermont but not enough buildings to hold enough people...

[seabeyond]

7. the only away summer camp son went to was a leadership camp. he enjoyed the exerience.

i do like the idea.

[KamaAina]

6. You'd want to keep the gun-toting dominionist types far away

lest Glenn Beckkk glorify them by comparing Camp Skinner to the Hitler Youth. :eyes:

[catabryna]

8. Wouldn't do it...

I would want my kid to be with different children. If my child is strong in his beliefs and what he believes to be wrong and right, I'd want him to learn to express his beliefs, no matter what.

Your mileage may vary. :hi:

[Wait Wut]

11. Agreed.

I'm a Pagan. Sent my kid to a Christian day camp when he was 8 (someone else paid for it). He absolutely loved it and they were very understanding. He came home with a lot of questions and we had some enlightening conversations. One kid did start something with him and the counselors intervened on my SON's behalf.

I always encouraged him to seek outside experiences. Helps kids mature. He loved going to synagogue with one of his friends in grade school. Spent a summer going to bible camp with another friend. And, of course, many, many Pagan gatherings with mom.

I don't necessarily have a problem with the idea, though. Some people choose to raise their kids differently and not have them exposed to different ideas. That's fine. They'll figure it all out, eventually.

[catabryna]

21. Kids are smarter than we give them credit for...

:)

[jtuck004]

15. Would welcome and seek out differences. That would offer the most

educational potential. Ask questions with respect, and perhaps add to where their education is deficient in what might help them to understand why we think our point of view is important. Lots of differences in kids, in class, politics, and other areas would be supremely desireable.

Songs would be good. I understand that has waned over the past few years. Maybe something along those used by the Folk School system in Denmark.

And give out cookies. Lots of cookies. Probably make 'em there.

Things to encourage thoughts that maybe other people are important, even if they are not on your board of directors.

[catabryna]

20. I do not manipulate my child into believing the same way I do...

He learns from example. I am by no means perfect, but he knows that I would never hurt a fly and that everyone gets the benefit of the doubt.

He also knows that "patience, is my only remaining virtue".

:hi:

[Luminous Animal]

30. Are you a Christian? Do you take your child to church? What kind of food do you feed your child?

Do shop at supermarkets? Or do you seek out local providers? What TV shows do you allow your child to watch? Does your child watch commercials?

It always cracks me up when people imagine that they are raising their children without propaganda.

[catabryna]

37. I am a Christian. We don't go to church.

What is a "provider"? (my mistake... I read propaganda)

Of course he goes grocery shopping with me. And, he likes Thomas the Tank Engine and the Chuggington Railway,

My kid doesn't watch television because I refuse to pay for crap. He's not a visual child, so he's not into it. He's not missing out.

The commercials he does see are the goofy ones that he sees on silly internet games and youtube.

:)

eta: my kid eats food cooked at home, and he eats junk. He eats vegetables and sucks on Slurpees.

[Luminous Animal]

43. So, you don't talk to your kid about God? Are you rasising your child in a Godless life

until your child can make her/his own decision to believe in God?

[catabryna]

44. My son knows about my feelings...

He knows that I believe his Dad is in heaven. Right now, that's what he believes. But, I don't shove it down his throat. He might grow up to believe differently.

Read my journal. :-)

[Luminous Animal]

46. So yes, you do teach your child to believe in God. So yes, you are indoctrinating him.

And yes, he might grow up to believe differently.

[catabryna]

47. No, my son knows I believe in God...

And, yes, he may grow up to believe differently.

That's alright with me. I happen to believe that God looks at the heart, not at the man-made rituals.

[Luminous Animal]

51. Oh please. If your son believes that his dad lives with some magical person in the sky...

you've already indoctrinated him to believe in God. It appears to me that you've set him up to believe in God and heaven and yet offered him no alternative.

As my daughter said when I gave her all the religious alternatives when she was 3 years old, "Well, perhaps you might live again, o-o-o-o-r... you are just dead dead dead dead dead."

[catabryna]

52. He's 10 years old and autistic...

You are still alive. My son's dad is dead.

You don't have the experience to lecture me.

Best wishes. :evilgrin:

[Luminous Animal]

58. My dad is dead, too. My dad died when I was 18 years old. He was sick for 3 years prior.

I am 53 years old now, and there is not one single day that I do not think about my wonderful amazing dad. I wish, with all my heart, that my daughter could have met my wonderful amazing dad. He so loved children.

Fortunately, I had someone (my dad himself) counteract the ridiculous fiction of my mom's heaven.

I'm not lecturing you but you've given your son nothing but a pie in the sky with no alternative. That is, you've given your son hope with nothing to back it up except faith.

It will be difficult, if he chooses to contemplate so, to give that up.

[Luminous Animal]

29. I'd do it. Kids are around different children 9 months out of the year. As a youth, I would have

loved it. I was, politically, a square peg in a round hole when I was growing up. My mother and dad were union members and political activists that instilled in us a kids a strong sense of questioning authority and conventional thinking. So we did. And, we were often targeted for doing such. It would have been great to hang out with like minded kids for a week or two out of the year... to not feel like such an outsider... to develop my own sense of self outside of the safety of my family.

[catabryna]

39. The sweetest words my kid ever said were...

"I'm a flaming liberal". He didn't say that to impress me. He said that because he wanted to be like his mom.

I smiled and told him that was pretty cool.

:)

[Luminous Animal]

42. That is very cool!

After my family moved to a democratic hostile town, our greatest refuge was our home. Decades later, my sister and my brother and I, talk about how healing it was to just simply walk through our front door. We could escape the racial hate and the religious hate and relax with people who loved us (Mom, Dad, Grandma, Gramndpa, and Aunt.)

[catabryna]

45. I've been fortunate...

my beliefs are founded on traditional democratic ideals, which just so happen to line up with true Christianity. B-)

[Luminous Animal]

49. True that. And my beliefs align with the Golden Rule which, for me, trumps all

religious doctrine.

[catabryna]

50. Coming at things from different directions...

but, agreeing.

Imagine that. :thumbsup:

[Luminous Animal]

53. Thumbs up to you too! As a political activist, I always look for common ground.

That is why I never overlook independents,republicans and teabaggers as a source for allies. It is one conversation at a time.

[catabryna]

56. This gal thinks you should focus your energies

on someone other than her. :hi:

[Shagbark Hickory]

9. At that age did anyone here really know what party best supported their ideals?

I think politics really should be winding down in our daily lives. We need to take pragmatic approach to our problems not a team sports "you suck, we rule" mentality.

Summer camps should be about fun. Not politics.

Give me a minute to put my flame retardant suit on then go at it.

[jtuck004]

12. No, I think you make valid points. And I am not so much saying that it

should be a camp with a big Circle D flag, but something that exposes them to ideas they will never hear about, maybe a little less of those they hear all the time.

Maybe a bit about families and why unions came about, cooperative and employee owned business, how to argue respectully, maybe some stuff about FDR and others (maybe about their childhood and how it differed) presented in a positive light.

I taught driving for 15 year olds last year, and 90% of the kids thought Rush was right on with his ideas, thought anyone who didn't work was a leach, thought... well, you get the picture.

It would have to be fun - look at McDonalds. No one accuses them of "training" kids, until you look at their background and marketing and realise that is all they do. Grades, of course, would be out the window, but that is no reason kids couldn't dress up as workers and put on a play about how organizing together gives them more power than the person who stays away, or as residents of England when everything was owned by the King and how that changed after they moved here and killed off most of the natives.

Fun would be the key.

And while I agree that we should get rid of the divisions, there is a whole political movement that not only doesn't believe that, but they have taken seats in Congress and are doing their dead-level best to wreck this country, perhaps in the hope that they will wind up on top (at least they have been saying that since the late 70's).

If we don't make sure the kids get exposed to this stuff we are leaving them unarmed against a deadly enemy. For parents who already make sure the kids know, maybe they would be the ones that could expose other kids to new ideas - 'cause I hate to tell you grownups, but they aren't, always, really listening to you. Humoring you might be a better description ;)

Anyway, just thinking about it...

[Shagbark Hickory]

17. How about "reality camp"

Where children learn things about health insurance, mortgages, taxes and tax returns, dealing with co-workers and angry people, landlords, contracts, getting sued, lawyers, car problems, credit cards, finding work, police, college and related expenses, investments and retirement savings, the shit you have to deal with when you have kids, and things that start to go wrong with the body when you get older.

Instead of color wars, campers can participate in a mock personal injury lawsuit. Campers would play the role of drivers in a wreck, insurance companies, hospitals, police, doctors, laywers and of course victim.

Instead of archery, campers would learn how to appeal their property tax appraisal.

Instead of arts & crafts, campers would get to experience dealing with a leaking roof, a dishwasher that doesn't work and a water heater that's on the fritz.

I think these are the kinds of real life training skills that would be most valuable to young people and as it is they are more often than not, set free in the world not having a clue about any of this shit then they're forced to figure it out for themselves, usually the hard way by making a mistake.

[jtuck004]

18. Yup. I think arts and crafts could be replaced by a course in

electrical troubleshooting and craftsman-like work.

Could teach kids about the good and bad things about credit using cookies, even an actual business as they get a bit
older. And all of the could get practice in speaking in front of people, as well as learning enough technical info to deal with problems.

Those are really good ideas. I was thinking more along the lines of history, and more inclined to have them doing real things, but there are several I hadn't considered.

Thank you.

[Shagbark Hickory]

24. teach them how to grow food...

slaughter chickens etc.

Or does that camp already exist? Farmer camp?

[jtuck004]

31. I don't think they exist in near enough quantity, based on what kids

have told me about their food.

That's a good idea - thank you.

[Shagbark Hickory]

59. When I was a kid I went to science camp one year.

It was held in a museum. I enjoyed it a lot. We built rockets and things like that.

But had they only taught us how to cultivate potatoes or stock a pond with fish.

Maybe you heard this saying, give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, feed him for a lifetime?

There are so many truly valuable skills and I struggle to think of a single one that I was ever taught in summer camp and I went to a lot of them.

[immoderate]

14. Maybe a DU adult camp?

:shrug:

--imm

[Shagbark Hickory]

16. Now that I'd be OK with.

It's the brainwashing.. er- training children that doesn't sound quite right to me.
It sounds like the kind of shit I overhear in the checkout line when some dedreck teapartier tells his child some stupid comment.

[jtuck004]

22. Brainwashing adults but not children?

Pat Robertson and Billy Graham called. ;)

Seriously, though, there are no penalities. Nothing gets easier if they espouse a viewpoint. They get no rewards for regurgitating crap. Don't see even a close parallel to anything I would consider brainwashing.

Besides, it's not my job to make sure they get a viewpoint that is harmful, deceitful, and selfish - which by all accounts is what I am seeing play out in Congress, and in good portions of this supposedly Democratic country, right now.

It's a valid question, though. I think the opportunity to question all the "training" they are getting from everyone around them, with no real consequences except perhaps a progressive viewpoint on it if they ask, is not a problem. Where it gets into a presentation of progressive information they may never have seen in any light, much less a positive one, information that lets them critique their reality in being just a future source of interest payments is an overtly polictical discussion, as most anything can be. I don't see "brainwashing".

This would be the place to get your brain dirty. It has been done for adults in places like the old Highlander Folk School in NC. Myles Horton brought black and white workers together (they normally didn't drink from the same water dipper back then) and creating an atmostphere where they could question why they had no power. Amazing stories about people learning to take more control over their political lives.

[Luminous Animal]

32. And yet, very few have any problem propagandizing children in religion. And, oh yes...

the U.S. is littered with religious camps.

[jwirr]

10. In MN there are both a Paul Welstone and a Hubert Humphry training

sessions. I think they are for adults but it would not hurt to learn about them before we create our own version.

[jtuck004]

13. Thank you, I will check into those. n/t

[rucky]

19. It would look like this...

http://www.campwinnarainbow.org/

[JVS]

23. 6 hours of weapons training each day.

[jtuck004]

28. 6 hours a day might be bit much, but I don't see why not..

But we need a wide range. Say a judges order of habeus corpus, protest signs, words that change people's actions, when your brain is your best weapon, a protection order, maybe even rock-in-a-sock, spears, bow and arrow. A gun safety class would be an excellent idea (with range time using a .22 and a target. Never know when they might need to gather food, given how things are going). Might keep a kid from getting killed at a neighbor's house, one never knows, and it would open up discussions as to why people take up guns instead of political science books.

[Chan790]

25. Books?

I'm not sure that books are a good curriculum item for a camp. They should run, frolick and play. Engage in liberal social activities that reinforce good values like charity and sharing and cooperation.

Also, muy thai...never know when you're going to have to kick some conservative ass.

[jtuck004]

33. For some it may be their only chance to hear

about a book from Frederick Douglas, or maybe Slaughterhouse V, or maybe even one that doesn't tell them the slaves rose up and fought for the South. Or at least excerpts, especially if it makes them ask questions. Then they could take a copy home.

On the other hand I agree, frolicking should play a major part in the curriculum

And I REALLY like the idea of muy thai.

[Blue-Jay]

26. If I had a kid, I wouldn't let him/her go to a "DU Camp".

It's tough enough to be a kid. Why would anyone subject them to "fun" activities like "eggshell-walking" and "advanced finger-shaking"?

[jtuck004]

34. Well, there is that.... n/t

[Blue-Jay]

38. Just procure an innocent kiss or two and make me a shitty wallet.

Go canoeing on the lake. Learn how to make a fire. Tell/learn some dirty jokes. See who can fart the loudest. AND MAKE ME A SHITTY WALLET THAT I'LL PRETEND TO LOVE!

[Chan790]

36. You forgot my suggestion of muy thai.

To be fair, I also think we should include "rhetoric and argumentation" and weight-lifting. Also, reading Everybody Poops, Heather Has Two Mommies and Rules For Radicals. (I was initially down on books, but I changed my mind in the face of a reasoned argument I accepted and synthesized into my thinking...because that's what liberals do.)

I'm seeking to create liberal ubermensch.

Shiny Happy Liberal Intellectual Ass-whupping Renaissance children.

[Blue-Jay]

41. Every kid needs an occasional knee to the face.

[lumberjack_jeff]

27. That's fine, but I don't think kids should be allowed. People pay good money to not see them.

:sarcasm:

[handmade34]

35. I love kids

and have been actually toying with this idea for awhile... just need some partners...

I have a degree in teaching and also used to teach homesteading...

would love to see this idea to fruition...

anybody????

[JI7]

40. i think there would be too much conspiracy theory crap

[Blue-Jay]

48. I bet you were forced to post that.

Possibly paid.

[cherokeeprogressive]

54. Looking for something to call it? How about "Indoctrination".

No thanks. If I were to send a child of mine to summer camp, I'd rather it be one where they ran and played, not sat and read books we decided were good for them.

Wow posts like this make me fucking glad my parents vacationed with my sister and me instead of pushing us off on summer camps, although we probably pissed some future DU'ers parents off by eating in restaurants while traveling.

[jtuck004]

60. You make a good point. I may not have been clear when I asked

about books. Those would be things for the library, but also material that might be worked into play. Not meant to create classroom session like school.

It's not for everyone. Most kids (amnd their parents) are so schooled that the first job would be to show them that we trust them to create their own activities (with a little guidance for safety). Having a whole working "farm" to work with would probably help. They are not there to please us or stick to a script, and that alone will be a change for many of them. But we might be able to encourage a little deeper investigating of what people tell them, a little more self-reliance, and maybe turn on a little interest in things they could learn more about after they leave.

It would be in a rural setting, maybe muy thai in the morning, activities like working in a garden, or a hydronic growing pool, building stone ovens or even buildings, talking about the real life stuff they may have to face someday (the things that Shagbark mentioned above). Singing (songs are powerful stuff), maybe some short talks.

Denmark has a whole system, the Folk School System, and where they are run in the tradition of Grundtvig (the guy who started them) they are very democratic places which use singing and food to encourage and build the spirit. One has to be arond 18, and the attendance is for months, rather than a week or two, but the songs and some of the focus on building the person can be borrowed.
Things can be borrowed from that for younger ones.

I know Westboro and other churches and orgs have their "camps", and they have no problem teaching kids to be selfish, mean little racist and homophobic bastards. Check out one of the all-white church camps, or the all-rich ones - there is a lesson there without having to print it. Anybody that thinks kids are not being indoctrinated daily with that stuff is just fooling themselves.

Seems like kids ought to have an opportunity to learn other things. Just by existing and modeling Democratic values such a program might may teach them things about cooperation and appreciation for the commons that they won't learn elsewhere.

[Mimosa]

55. The message is clear.. don't pursue progressive politics in vulnerable groups.

I'm betting in the future all affinity group retreats -any place- will be guarded by skilled professionals.

[jtuck004]

57. Yeah, I thought about that too.

I wonder if the kids that get groups together from Oral Roberts University will have that now, or the hundreds of religious camps, leadership camps, Scouts, etc...

[Motown_Johnny]

61. Basket weaving?