Can Someone Explain Something To Me Here About a 14th Amendment Challenge.

[Rozlee]

If, to everyone's surprise, and meek Obama does go nuclear and uses the 14th Amendment to push through the debt ceiling, it's pretty axiomatic that Rethugs in Congress will go to lunch on his ass. So, would that be a really, really bad thing, or a really, really good thing? We know they'll push it all the way to the Supreme Court. We also know that despite the Court's waxing on a strict interpretation of the Constitution, that their right-wingers definitely legislate from the bench, witness Citizens United and other pro-business decisions they've made in the past.

I'm trying to get a feel for such a scenario. Because, speaking from the point of view of Citizens United, would they be more sympathetic to the business end and side with Wall Street and the Chamber of Commerce? Or would they be leery of an electorate with their eyes on them, close to election day, wondering whether they'll get their government assistance and retirement benefits; whether institutions that count on government largess can operate if the cash flow from Washington stops? Like we've all said before, teabaggers like to blame the government for all it's ills and insist that it's too big. But, when it hits them in the pocketbook, a few minds re-evaluate. Or not. When I used to work in Civil Service, I had co-workers that complained about Big Governemnt and Congresspersons having Cadillac medical plans. When I pointed out to them that they were a part of Big Government and had Cadillac medical plans themselves, they'd flatly tell me I was mistaken.

Back on track. The onus would be on the Supremes if Republicans gleefully took Obama to the Court for using the 14th. I'd like to get a sense of which route they'd take. Nothing here but a thought exercise. Obama would be off the hook once he'd raised the debt ceiling and the Supremes would be the bad guys--as well as the Rethugs for pushing it--if they voted against him for raising it and causing the government to default and keeping Grandma from getting her Social Security check. Count me in as one of the Grandmas. Like I said, Obama might not be getting all the flak for this one. He came through, now the Republicans and the Supremes would be the bad guys. Or would the Supremes be cowed by the threat of default and their obligations to Big Business? These guys do have IQs a little higher than the rank and file teabagger that can only drone "cut spending!" and "cut taxes!" They'd be handing Obama a gift during an election season and making him a fighter for defending Americans and Rethugs the villains for wanting to keep veterans from getting our medical care and from getting paid to get killed and disabled in our wars.

This is only some speculation I've been doing and I don't know if it would play out like this and I'm sure there are a lot of other scenarios, many favorable to Obama and many disastrous.

Like I said, these conservatives on the bench don't care squat about the Constitution, despite their claims otherwise. I have no idea of the many arguments they might have for or against something like this. Conservatives sure like the idea of Armageddon, though. If this ever came to pass, I'm bracing for the worst.

[Enrique]

1. i'm not sure they would push it

as I see it, Obama's using the 14th Amendment would mean that he continues to pay our debts and ignores the debt ceiling. The alternative would be to default. And so the action that the GOP would take in response to that would be to get a court to stop Obama from paying the debts, and force him to default. They would have to FIGHT in court to force the country into default. Not an easy thing to do, imo.

[CarmanK]

2. It's not just a matter for SCOTUS, the House could IMPEACH

Obama, or at least try to. So while the SCOTUS is making up its mind whether the US of AMERICA is more valuable than the parallel TPARTY NATION which is a greater threat to the UNION as the confederacy ever was, the House of Representatives will try to IMPEACH OBAMA and waste more time and stall and delay addressing the problems of the nation's workers. It is all about power to them. And right now, this conjured up fiscal crisis is just a political ploy which empowers the TPARTY PATRIOTS to impose their will on the american people. They want to destroy the nation and rebuild it in their image.

[sabrina 1]

3. Bill Clinton says he would do it and let the courts try to stop him.

Just threatening to do it, might get some results according to some people. But Clinton says he would not hesitate, and I have a feeling he wouldn't. That's why they hated him, when he wanted to foil the other side, which was not all the time as we know, he managed to do it.

[coalition_unwilling]

10. Demagoguery. What investor in his or her right mind would buy any US debt that might

no longer be backed by the 'Full faith and credit of the U.S.'? Any debt issued after such an executive invocation of the 14th Amendment would face such scrutiny from investors. Result, prices bid for such bonds would decline precipitously, interest rates would rise accordingly, and the U.S. and global economies would face a death spiral.

[Davis_X_Machina]

4. Under ordinary circumstances...

....the Court wouldn't touch a challenge, certainly not from Congress.

It's a political issue, between branches -- which the Courts wouldn't ordinarily touch.
And here are standing issues galore -- to sue, you have to be the one harmed.

Impeachment would be the appropriate remedy, if Congress felt so aggrieved.

After Bush v. Gore, though, who knows?

[Roselma]

5. I think it could be a net positive. The USSC

would likely not hear the case according to Fareed Zakaria. They would relegate it back to a lower court, because it is a legislative matter and not in their purview. If they do hear it and decide against raising the ceiling, they get the blame for the economic destruction that would ensue. Also, if they rule in favor of Obama, then that debt ceiling law would cease to be valid. There are other problems should that occur including the consideration that before the debt ceiling law, each and every bond issued by the federal government was voted upon by Congress. It ate up so much legislative time, and that is why the debt ceiling vote has substituted. What would be needed would be a legislative fix to remove votes on the debt ceiling from other legislation in the future. That would solve the problem. Or, more likely, the debt ceiling would be eliminated and the executive branch would be free to issue debt.

I think that an impeachment of Obama (just the vote to impeach) that would occur in the House of Representatives would massively backfire on the Republican party in 2012. The actual trial would end in no conviction in the Democratic party controlled Senate anyway.

[DCBob]

6. +1

good analysis.

[housewolf]

7. One thing I heard being discussed last night was the issue of "standing"

Congressional Repubs couldn't sue as a body, individuals would need to sue. And it's questionable that a court would find that individual Congressional members have been personally harmed by the President's action, and could well deny them standing to pursue an option in the courts.
And of course, it takes a long time (years) to move things through the court system.

But could they get a "Cease and Desist" order?????

Guess I don't know enough law.....

[asjr]

8. Could the citizens of this country

file a class action suit against the Republican (Tea) party for the mess they have gotten us in? After all they have done damage to the country.

[Davis_X_Machina]

9. From whom? The Supreme Court...

...is not a court of first instance except in narrow circumstances.

Your local Federal district court could conceivably issue one -- and they defendants move to delay its effectiveness until they've exhausted their right to appeal...and that happens at the Circuit level, and then the circuit has to re-hear arguments en banc, and then the Supremes decide on a grant of cert...with the temporary stay in effect the whole while.