So what will constitute a loss for the Dem's?

[trumad]

No new Revenue in the deal?
Cuts to SS and Medicare?

I think if both these things happen, we got are asses kicked and Obama should be primaried.

[Davis_X_Machina]

Anything short of a declaration that property is theft....

...will constitute a loss for the Dem's here, at least.

[readmoreoften]

3. Strawman.

[trumad]

5. Why?

[readmoreoften]

10. Saying that Obama is criticized @ DU because he fails to reflect Proudhonian

anarchism is a strawman. People have legitimate concerns about this political period of the Democratic Party.

[TheWraith]

17. People have concerns. They're not legitimate.

And often they're only slightly less laugh-worthy than the example Davis offered.

DU is what you get when you take the ultra-radical left, then put them in an echo chamber to make sure they don't get any sense of the real and massive differences between the Democrats and the Republicans.

[fishwax]

28. DU is an echo chamber of the ultra radical left?

No.

[TheWraith]

39. Yes. DUers are far to the left of even regular liberal Democrats.

Let alone the average of the party.

[readmoreoften]

41. Keep making up fantasies. Obama's 40% approval rating contradicts your fantasy.

[readmoreoften]

40. DU is an echo chamber of campaign operatives out of touch with the American people

Who unleash screeds against the principles of their own party at a level not seen since the German SPD executed their own left wing in 1923. Let's hope your hatred of your own party's historic platforms have less disastrous results.

[woo me with science]

43. Yeah, those crazy, leftist concerns like protecting Medicare and Social Security.

:eyes:

All the ad hominem aside, nice try at obscuring and blurring what people are actually angry about.

[Davis_X_Machina]

47. Polling yields broad-based popular support for compromise...

....and for protecting the entitlement programs.

How do you square this circle, with this Congress?

[woo me with science]

49. No, polling reveals broad-based hope that there will be consensus to fix this mess,

but if you look at internals of ALL polls, people do NOT support cutting Medicare and SS. They are angry as hell about it.

[saras]

52. Easy. You tell the public it's impossible, and why, and get their support in fixing it.

And the public, given a better plan than the Tea Party (which the Dems failed with - they offered NO plan except "we're not QUITE as bad as they are"), gives them a Congress that will fix it.

[Davis_X_Machina]

54. I stipulated "with this Congress"...

...no hand-waving the results of the '10 midterms away.

[villager]

9. -1

n/t

[Stinky The Clown]

1. I agree

Not as sure about the primary thing, but I completely agree we got our asses kicked - as usual since this guy became president.

[Horse with no Name]

2. Just from what I have seen with my own lying eyes

just the act of getting something PASSED--with no regard of how toxic or noxious it is...is considered a "win" for this administration.

[trumad]

4. Agree...

And I am getting awfully tired of the capitulation.

[woo me with science]

6. We have already lost. America has lost.

People keep talking about August 2 as though it will be the end of this. As though everything will be over, someone will have won and someone will have lost, and we can move on to the next battle.

The truth is that we have *all* lost. Not just Democrats. All of America. And this is a critical loss that goes far beyond August 2 and this ginned-up debt ceiling crisis.

Our Democratic President has validated and cemented Republican framing and talking points about what the economy needs to recover. Against the advice of hundreds of economists, he has backed and justified deep spending cuts that will starve the economy further and create worlds of additional pain instead of jobs.

And by offering Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security up on a platter, he has corrupted what Democrats have always stood for: defense of the most vulnerable among us.

He has poisoned the Democratic message and transformed what used to be a malignant *Republican* framing of our budget and our economy into an accepted *bipartisan* meme. Whether or not entitlements are slashed this time, he has ensured that we will be fighting assaults like this to the most vulnerable among us for a very long time.

I am angrier and more heartbroken than I can remember. We need to back strong, principled Democrats for the White House and both houses of Congress. We need to take our party back.

[trumad]

8. I feel you...

My disillusionment is nearing epic proportions.

[Tx4obama]

11. Sausage making is messy

Anyone that can't stand the heat should get out of the kitchen.

Btw, the Reid plan has NO cuts at all regarding Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security.

The Reid plan PROTECTS Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security.

Stop blaming Obama for things he has NOT signed.

[trumad]

13. I said....if.

[Tx4obama]

15. Huh? I don't know what you're talking about.

I was replying to 'woo me with science's comment.

[trumad]

19. My bad...

sorry

[gateley]

18. I was totally happy w/Reid's plan (for the time being!). Apparently

the House of Representatives didn't agree with me :7

[woo me with science]

22. Nonsense.

It is beyond ludicrous to offer as an argument that the President has not made cuts, when he has offered deep cuts and is begging for them to be accepted.

And the Reid plan is perhaps the most devious way of facilitating such cuts while attempting to escape blame. Three things:

First, we will not get the Reid plan. It has already been voted down.

Second, the President was not even arguing for the Reid plan; he was arguing for a compromise between the Reid plan and the Republican plan and even went out of his way to clarify that he included entitlement "reform" in that.

And third, even if by some miracle we DID get the Reid plan, it contains the "Super Congress," which is a cynical, outrageous ploy to make future assaults to entitlements even easier.

Please stop trying to sell the ridiculous notion that Obama does not back cuts to entitlements. He has done nothing but fight for them since this debacle started.

[Tx4obama]

32. The House has to vote on the Reid bill AFTER the Senate votes on it.

The other vote that the House held today won't count.

Please stop trying to sell the ridiculous notion that Obama backs cuts to SS, Medicare, and Medicaid BENEFITS. Obama is NOT doing that. Obama wants the decrease to be in over-payments, fraud, over-head, etc. NOT benefits.

You've been pushing the idea that Obama wants to cut benefits for quite a long time now, it is not going to work - you can say it a thousand more times and it still will not become the truth.


Edited to add the word 'to' to the comment subject line.

[woo me with science]

33. OF COURSE he has defended benefit cuts. Repeatedly.

Denials of reality do not strengthen an argument. They, in fact, weaken it.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=724983&mesg_id=725087

[Doctor_J]

45. You can kind of see in that link why he's getting his ass kicked

"well, let me put it this way: If you’re a senior citizen, and a modification potentially costs you a hundred or two hundred bucks a year more, or even if it’s not affecting current beneficiaries, somebody who’s 40 today 20 years from now is going to end up having to pay a little bit more....The least I can do is to say that people who are making a million dollars or more have to do something as well."

Yeesh. That's leadership? WTF happened to the orator from the 2008 campaign?

[woo me with science]

51. Where, indeed.

[dgibby]

56. You're right,

and the "Grand Bargain" is still on the table. All the repukes have to do is accept it.

[abelenkpe]

27. And was voted down in the house yeah? Nt

[Autumn]

7. We already lost. To quote Robert Reich:

"The federal deficit is not the nation's biggest problem. The anemic recovery, huge unemployment, falling wages, and declining home prices are bigger problems. We don't have a budget crisis. We have a jobs and growth crisis."

"The federal budget deficit has no economic relationship to the debt limit. Republicans have linked the two, and the Administration has played along,"


That last line says it all, and the Administration has played along,

[trumad]

12. Bingo

The Repubs said jump and the administration said how hi....

Austerity is the worse possible thing we could do right now.

Obama won't lose his presidency because of the deficit....but he may just lose it because of unemployment.

[readmoreoften]

24. Exactly. But Obama seems more concerned with re-election than his party's historic platform, and w

And stranger yet, he doesn't seem to care too much about his re-election. They wholly seem to lack vision, purpose, and perspective at this point.

[fishwax]

30. "We don't have a budget crisis. We have a jobs and growth crisis."

Very true.

[gateley]

14. I'm willing to forego the revenue since the Bush tax cuts are

set to expire (again) in 2013. We can fight about the loopholes and tax cuts when we aren't on the verge of default, in my opinion.

I'd consider anything actually cutting M/M/SS a loss. I've heard some "good" guys say we could save lots of $$ if we'd do something about the drug prices in Medicare - like negotiating as the VA does, but COLA "tweaking" ANYTHING that messes with what people will be receiving, any raise in ages, ANYTHING, is a loss in my book.

[trumad]

16. Do you really trust the Bush Tax Cuts expiring?

[Tx4obama]

20. Yes, they WILL expire December 31, 2012. Obama will NOT extend them. n/t

[trumad]

26. I didn't think he'd extend them last time.

[kath]

31. Oh, bullshit - he said he wouldn't extend them LAST time.

As if you can trust any single fucking word that comes out of his mouth at this point...

[Tx4obama]

34. So, you didn't think that the unemployment benefits should have been extended?

You know that the GOP was holding unemployment benefits hostage at the time.

Obama will NOT extend the Bush cuts anymore.

And please stop insinuating that our president is a liar.

[Doctor_J]

36. Obama may well be a lame duck in December 2012

and if so he won't let them expire.

[Tx4obama]

44. No he will NOT be a lame duck. Obama WILL win re-election in 2012. n/t

[MrTriumph]

48. Typical Obama Apologist hubris. Obama will take the DP to another 2010 election.

x

[gateley]

25. No, of course not, but I'm hopeful we could get our messaging

stronger between now and then and get the support of the American people (who, at this point in time, think it's THEIR taxes that will be taking a hike).

With this potential default breathing down our necks, I'm just thinking pragmatically - get this done, then we'll live to fight another day.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[abelenkpe]

23. There are several charts floating around showing

one of the largest contributors to the deficit to be the bush tax cuts. It is an extreme disappointment that no plans put forth even consider getting rid of them.

Talking heads like to blather on about making tough choices as families do when they need to cut back. Families cut first the things they truly don't need before cutting spending on necessities. I'd say those tax cuts are obviously unnecessary. Assistance for the poor and elderly, Medicare, social security....those should be the last thing considered.

That congress is more concerned with protecting the well to do over the needy is despicable. No spin can hide that. Anything other than a clean bill to raise the debt ceiling is a loss and a new low for our society. we shouldn't be cutting (layoffs) in a weak economy. It will ripple through communities causing more layoffs. Raise taxes on the rich and cut subsidies to big oil. They can afford it. Those are the least damaging easiest cuts to make.

(Edited out a for n added last line)

[treestar]

29. It is not a win lose thing

Legislation and governing are not contests.

[Doctor_J]

38. Tell that to the teabaggers

One thing we might want to do to start taking the country back is to drop the platitudes and move back to reality.

[Doctor_J]

35. It's already lost

There will be no revenue hikes, and there will be severe cuts to SS, Medicare, Medicaid, and other programs for the needy.

The president's decision early on to accept the Repukes' terms of debate and to place "entitlements" on the table AT THE BEGINNING guaranteed a loss. The best we can hope for now is complete disaster.

[blkmusclmachine]

37. Who is this "Obama." I don't recognize him AT ALL.

n/t

[Ozymanithrax]

42. Cuts to SS and/or Medicare are a loss.

Republicans will not accept any new revenue.

Democrats should not accept cuts to SS and Medicare.

Revenue is a good idea and necessary. Cuts to SS and Medicare are a line in the sand that must not be crossed.

Cuts to SS and Medicare are a loss. I fully expect a Republican President, House, and Senate if Democrats do that. The only way to punish a party for failing to serve its constituents is to remove them from power. I am fully aware of the repercussions of doing that and can accept them.

For once, I would like to hear Democratic leadership argue that they lost because they weren't liberal enough.

[Tx4obama]

50. There are NO cuts to SS and Medicare in the Reid plan. Go read it. n/t

[Ozymanithrax]

55. House rejected Redis plan, so there is no Reid plan. Might want to read my post...

and the OP, since it did not mention the Reid plan, which doesn't exist since the House rejected it.

How to contact CongressHouse rejects Senate Dems debt-limit bill

Might want to move back on topic.

[philly_bob]

46. Default > 2 days is a loss. Cuts to SS is loss. (nt)

[Rex]

53. A default.

nt

[tavalon]

57. The last three years, with a few exceptions, have been nonstop losses for Democrats.

[swilton]

58. It's like we have a 5th collumn within the Democratic Party

It's the Obama WH and it's doing more to sabotage the Democratic Party than the tea-baggers ever dreamed of

More wars, expanded military presence overseas
Sabotaging the public option for health care
Cutting ss, medicare, medicaid


What will he think of next?