The problem with the Obama-bashers, or the flip side - the 'Obama is our SAVIOR' articles

[Taverner]

OK - the problem is that they do not deliver a complex explanation to what's going on.

BTW, do not think for a moment that our side didn't coordinate Reid's move with Obama's - we did and it did as good as it could.

Problem is, one side is fucking insane. Not 'crazy, but not by Ayn Rand's standards. Or 'crazy, but not by Fransisco Franco's standards.'

But flat out, 'they will kill us all!' crazy.

The GOP has fucked us. Yeah, we played hard this time. Obama did, and it didn't help. You can't win with bullshit from these fuckers (the GOP) and you can't win with logic.

We'll probably default, or maybe not.

The GOP will pretend nothing is happening, but we'll all be fucked.

AND if we're lucky, that will be it.

BUT, a power-driven megalomaniac might take over.

For those looking for the conspiracy - there is none.

Obama knows this is the big 'thing'.

That these fuckers are ready to drive us off a cliff.

There's not much you can do when you've got that level of sabotage.

Imagine if your right and left hands, and right foot were on the side of keeping things from getting worse.

But let's just say your left foot was hell bent on making the whole 'shithouse go up in flames!'

All it has to do is hit the brake REALLY fucking hard, and everyone dies.

And that's what they are doing.

Obama is a logical man - it would never hit him that some people are willing to make the whole 'shithouse go up in flames.'

He is figuring that out now, but it's too late.

How can a rational man fight with an irrational foe?

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

1. Sadly, imho, it's not very complex.

Seemingly forgotten fact: Dem's control 2/3 of the machinery.

Enough excuses.

[virtualobserver]

2. I think that he will fight it, in the way that he runs in 2012

The tea party had a nuke strapped to their chest. Obama had to disarm that nuke.

He then has to run against that craziness and defeat and discredit it in 2012.

[Taverner]

10. Doesn't matter - he will be blamed

Even though it was not his fault...

And I do truly believe that...

He needs to fucking change his strategy, but it's not that simple as 'bad v good'

[virtualobserver]

15. I'm more optimistic than you are in this case

I think that he went into 2009 understanding that he would lose the house in 2010. It is such a consistent
historical pattern. I think he also knew that the extremists would overplay their hand, and he could use that
to win re-election in 2012. You can't warn the American people about the potential of the crazies, they have to
be shown, and they will increasingly be shown that as the election approaches. Obama is President, and he is responsible
for keeping us from going over the cliff, especially since the other guys are totally irresponsible.

[vi5]

3. "played hard this time"

Obama did? Really?

I don't disagree with a lot of the points in your post your post, but the problem once again was that he (and also a lot of other Dems) DIDN'T play hard. From the get-go he (and they) adoped the Republican framing of the Debt ceiling as being tied to deficit reduction, the prioritization of tackling the deficit over working on the jobs situation, by putting together the Catfood commission, by stacking said commission with anti-Social Security people rather than staunch defenders of it, and by signaling early and frequently that he was more concerned with a deal that was a "grand bargain" and "bipartisan" and "historic" than he was with holding hard to a position.

If that is "playing hard" then jesus christ no wonder we are in a shit ton of trouble.

[Taverner]

5. Played hard =/= hard enough

The GOP went krazy to 11 on this one...

[virtualobserver]

12. so if Obama played hardball

and the tea party crashed the world economy....

Would you be happier now?

[vi5]

16. I'm not the one who made the assertion....

The OP said that Obama played hard this time. There is absolutely no evidence to support that. There is every bit of evidence to support the notion that he coddled and accomodated the tea party and the republicans every step of the way.

If you think that was the better strategy then fine. We can disagree on that. But by no stretch of the imagination did he "play hard". On this or on any fight that the Republicans have engaged us and him on.

So yeah, I guess we'll never know what would happen if he actually stood up to these bozos and drew lines in the sand and pushed back aggresively for once. Because apparently there's always going to be some hostage, real or imagined and pretty much there's always going to be something that can be held up as an excuse for "Well, if he had done that then it would have......".

Just like with the signing on to extend the Bush tax cuts, the excuse presented by the apologists and the excuse makers was "Well if he let the top rates expire then the middle and lower class cuts would expire as well...and that would be bad for the economy!!!!" but then he goes and engages the Republicans on their terms of debate, accepts their framing of the situation, and proposes and agrees to and yes praises and endorses policies which are flat out, by any reasonable standard....horrible for the economy. Every bit as horrible as the impact would have been by ending all the tax cuts even for the other brackets.

I'm just fucking tired of the excuses every time. Look, if you think this was the only way he could have handled it then fine. I'm glad you're o.k. with it. But please don't try to pass off what he did and how he handled this as "playing hard".

[virtualobserver]

20. I''m not saying that he played hard.....

I'm saying that there was no way to appease the Tea party.

I'm not even convinceed that they will go along with this plan.

[vi5]

21. You didn't but the OP did. Which is what I took issue with.

Of course there's no way to appease them. Which is why it should have never been made the focus of what we did or did not do.

[readmoreoften]

4. The Democratic Party has failed America. No more excuses. Fight the right or go home.

The quislings and appeasers wouldn't know a win if it bit them.

[Taverner]

6. The system is fucked in their favor

It's funny that it's THEM who are looking to '2nd Amendment Options'...

[HereSince1628]

14. They do not see their job as fighting the right...

after all, increasing numbers of democrats are on the right.

It is their job to win elections.

"Practical solutions" are desired---a practical solution is one that doesn't interfere with getting re-elected.

[villager]

7. yes, but Obama keeps treating the crazies *with deference*, as *if they are credible*

He's forfeited the bully pulpit. What he needs to do is call them out, over and over again, and start postulating an alternate, more grounded reality.

This repeated caving to terrorists buys us nothing but an increase in calamity's arrival...

[Taverner]

8. Yes - it seems to be going in that direction....

I cannot say Obama is playing a winning strategy - how smart is negotiating with terrorists?

[villager]

17. Exactly. The problem is not that he *loses* fights for good laws, or "change" -- it's that he never

...makes those fights, takes those political chances, to begin with.

[Taverner]

19. No he made a fight in this last one

Sadly, it wasn't enough

[villager]

22. what did he fight *for*, exactly? And where was the bully pulpit?

OK-- I will grant there was a little bully pulpit, briefly, in that one speech a few days ago (the second to last one). But he needs to be doing that all the time -- repeatedly telling Americans how he plans to keep fighting forthem and against the special interests.

He needs to demonstrate he's doing this not by pre-emptively watering down legislation, or caving-in- advance, but by introducing bills that will have no chance in a radical right congress.

Then when those pro-average working stiff bills fail, he needs to get back on TV and explain exactly what happened, and who did it.

Rinse. And repeat.

[mmonk]

9. The right are the Obama bashers, we are not.

Our disappointment is fact and reason based.

[Bluenorthwest]

11. Many irrational foes of history have been defeated

Step one is ending the 'you are my friends and partners' rhetoric. One thing I notice here, both of the groups you characterize in your title speak of Republicans in the terms that you use, not in the terms the President uses. Thus, I do not see that one side actually agrees with him much, they just think they do, and feel more comfortable saying that. If they agreed with him, they'd sound like him. They do not. They are not bipartisan they are fiercely partisan. They say 'I agree with the President' then they call the GOP terrorists, which is language very that is in disharmony with that of the President. I do not meet, here nor anywhere, any Democrats who actually 'follow' Obama's methods or principles. I see many claim to be his ardent supporters, but they never, ever show that support by actually agreeing with him. No, they claim 'he has to say that' and then they call the GOP father raping mother sellers. How is that 'like' Obama? How is that 'in support of his message'? It is not.
If Obama came here and posted his bipartisan love talk, those who call themselves his 'supporters' would tear his posts to pieces. So are they really, really 'in support of his messages'? No, they are not. They do not seek bipartisanship, nor speak of it. They do not praise the GOP. Ever. The President does. They do not.
So they say the opposite of what he says, in the opposite way from how he says it, yet they have declare they are his 'supporters' and so they insist upon that name. Even as they sound far, far more like Kucinich or DeFazio, whom they often stand to criticize although their opinions harmonize.

[CC]

13. The GOP/Tea Party will let this country

crash & burn to get their way then use the media it controls to blame it on the Democratic Party. So far Democrats haven't been willing to let us crash & burn to get their way. Not really sure I want the Demos to turn into a form of the repukes when it comes to getting their way. Unfortunately it might take letting the country crash & burn to get the idiot half of the voters to see what is going on. :shrug: Looking at recent history turning on the only alternative party completely or staying home from voting doesn't seem to work out very well either. I decided the best thing I can do is point out facts, even to rabid right-wingers and knock on doors in support of those politicians that offer the ideals I support.

[Marr]

18. If one side is truly intent on destroying the economy, as Obama's defenders say, then

he has no excuse for not invoking the 14th amendment. Simple as that. I mean it's either a matter of defending the nation from collapse or it is not.

I don't buy this whole "the opposition is crazy and suicidal" line. Or at least, I don't buy the idea that there's no way around them without cutting SS/Medicare.

[guruoo]

23. I'm betting he'll do that...

(invoke 14th amendment) just not before the default has actually occurred.
He'll wait a few days, a week perhaps.