Go Rachel!! Gun Massacre review.

[Ruby the Liberal]

Make bullets illegal or extremely cost prohibative. Problem solved.

[oldtime dfl_er]

1. maybe not solved

but it's a step in the right direction. But the NRA won't be having it.

I just made myself sick even thinking about what the NRA will say.

[Ruby the Liberal]

2. Well, I have a question for them.

Who in the hell needs a 30 round clip? Can anyone from the NRA possibly justify that?

Imagine how much less carnage if he was limited to the 1994-2004 10 round (plus 1 in chamber) limit?

[TheWraith]

6. Both the DOJ and President Clinton admitted that the 1994 ban did not affect crime at all.

And there is no evidence that lower capacity magazines result in fewer deaths. Changing magazines can be done in about one to two seconds.

[Ruby the Liberal]

11. Ugh. Well if that is the case, I am even more impressed with the 61yo

woman who kept that second magazine out of his hands.

[TheWraith]

15. Wouldn't have mattered--the gun jammed, and wouldn't have fired again until it was cleared.

Glocks are popular with the police because they're very reliable, but large magazines aren't. In this case a magazine spring apparently broke, causing the weapon to jam.

[Ruby the Liberal]

16. There has to be a solution.

I wish I knew the answer.

[TheWraith]

18. Free comprehensive mental health care.

Along with throwing out the radical right and their eliminationist rhetoric.

[Ruby the Liberal]

21. I would be on board with this. With bells on.

No way should this kid have been able to buy a gun. Hell, even a Walmart employee denied him ammo. Kid looked like a crazed animal in his mug shot.

[Statistical]

8. Statistically speaking no change.

BATFE and DOJ concluded the Assault Weapons Ban had no perceivable impact on violent crime, homicides, the number of mass shootings, or the average number of victims per shooting.

In essence it didn't do jack shit except give Republicans control of Congress for a decade. Now how many people died because of that?

[Ruby the Liberal]

14. This surprises me. Given the above post, I understand that changing a clip is quick

but I still think that reloading may have given someone a chance to take him down.

This whole thing just makes me sick. Especially everytime I see that little girl's smiling face. :(

[Statistical]

22. If you know what you are doing... not so much.

Changing mags takes about 2 (or less) seconds. The alternative solution is a pair of guns.

The Va Techs shooter reloaded 4 times and nobody stopped him.

Likely the only thing that kept the body count down (compared to say Va Tech) was according to most accounts the shooter sprayed the crowd randomly expending ammo without any sort of plan.
Had he conserved ammo, shot the closest targets, and backed up while reloading he could have killed far more.

I am not saying this to be cold but that is the reality.

Some examples of speed mag changes with a variety of weapons & styles.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ls4Uq1aCiTA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzAeobt3ceU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhknaDjLFRI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbC5mEc6ipE

It takes some practice to get this good but for defensive pistol matches even I (not even in the same league as those guys) can do a combat mag change in about 2-3 seconds. That is with minimal practice. Unlike other pistol skills it doesn't take any money or ammo, just time, and repetition to build muscle memory.

[Ruby the Liberal]

25. Not taken as cold but factual.

My understanding is that this was his first gun, bought Nov 30th. That lack of experience may have been the saving grace that this wasn't worse.

[Statistical]

34. You may be right. His state of mind likely contributed to it.

Cho was cold, and calculating. He was methodical, and that maximized fatalities.

This guy was in a rush. It was all rage, an explosion of activity with little plan.

[RamboLiberal]

48. Nope he was supposedly had some skill with guns

The new details from Mr. Gutierrez about Mr. Loughner — including his philosophy of anarchy and his expertise with a handgun, suggest that the earliest signs of behavior that may have ultimately led to the attacks started several years ago.

As his behavior grew more puzzling to his friends, he was getting better with a pistol. Starting in high school, Mr. Loughner honed his marksmanship with a 9-millimeter pistol, the same caliber weapon used in the attack Saturday, until he became proficient at handling the weapon and firing it quickly.

“If he had a gun pointed at me, there is nothing I could do because he would make it count,” Mr. Gutierrez said. “He was quick.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/12/us/12loughner.html?hp

[TheWraith]

3. That's one of the most insanely ridiculous ideas I've heard in years.

For one, making bullets illegal is itself illegal. Constitutional right.

The second idea is even worse. It would literally ONLY effect lawful use of guns. Competitive shooters go through thousands of rounds a year, but someone who is intent on committing murder ONLY NEEDS ONE. You would literally be creating a law that punished legal recreational shooters, while giving a free pass to criminals.

Not to mention the hundred million Americans who own guns would never again vote for anyone who supported such a thing, including the four in ten Democrats who own guns.

[virgogal]

4. Then the rich will be armed and the poor won't. Just ban the damn things.

[sakabatou]

5. As Chris Rock once said...

"I think every bullet should cost 5,000 dollars. Because if a bullet cost five thousand dollar, we wouldn't have any innocent bystander .”

[Ruby the Liberal]

20. One of my favorite bits

If I recall, he goes into a riff about 2 people in an argument, one pulls a gun and then has second thoughts as to whether the other guy is worth the cost of the $5k bullet.

Heh.

[Statistical]

7. It takes one bullet to kill someone, it takes hundreds if not thousands

to gain the skills to defend yourself.

Chris Rock brought up the idea of "bullet control" however he is a comedian and was making a joke. I find it sad, maybe pathetic is a better word to think someone would take a joke and try to run with it like it is a logical policy. The idea that you could reduce crime by making bullets prohibitively expensive is downright stupid. It is possible with the skills you can learn in a couple hours to make your own ammo.

So making bullets insanely expensive:
A) Law abiding citizens and Police can't afford to train
B) Criminals will just make their own illegal and low cost ammo
C) Suicide killers will just put it on VISA. Think someone looking to kill themselves in a blaze of glory really care about the unpaid VISA bill.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cynatnite]

10. She is amazing tonight. n/t

[-..__...]

33. Amazingly stupid/ignorant if she actually said that.

[Ruby the Liberal]

35. No - those were my words, not Rachel's.

[-..__...]

38. No problem.

So... what did she say that prompted you to post the original comment?

[Ruby the Liberal]

40. She went through a list of gun massacres over the last several years

[Super Bobo]

50. Rwanda

The machete worked pretty well for the killers in Rwanda.

Bolster background checks and make mandatory drug testing a requirement as well.

Ban gun ownership and you get Mexico.

[RamboLiberal]

51. She was amazingly ill-informed tonight

I'm a Rachel fan. I always thought she did her homework. But she seriously needed fact-checked tonight. She trotted out quite a few myths and untruths from the all plastic gun that Glock never had to he couldn't have gotten the 30 round mag if AWB hadn't expired in 2004 to the micro-stamping bullets that would solve very few crimes.

[pacalo]

12. That should include making gunpowder & casings cost prohibitive, too.

There are gun fans who make their own bullets.

[kelly1mm]

45. At $5000 a bullet I would have over $30,000,000.00 worth of rounds!

now that's what I call a stimulus plan!

[Kingofalldems]

13. I like it

[demmiblue]

17. He died shielding his wife.

:cry:

* I didn't catch his name because I am watching online and the link kept buffering.

[Ruby the Liberal]

26. Dorwin Stoddard

Shot in the head after diving over his wife of 15 years to protect her as she was shot 3x in the legs. High School sweethearts who reunited after their spouses died while in their 60s.

Obit and photo: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110110/ap_on_re_us/us_congresswoman_shot_thumbnails

:(

[demmiblue]

29. .

RIP, Mr. Stoddard. :(

(Thanks, Ruby)

[Imajika]

19. If the Democratic party took that position...

...we'd simply be wiped off the map in all but some urban areas and almost completely out of power till said ridiculous position was completely repudiated. Then add a decade or so till the public forgets we ever suggested such a dopey idea.

If the Democratic party makes the mistake of even hinting that this assassination attempt is a reason for gun control we will be making a terrible mistake. The Gun Control is agenda is poisonous, completely and utterly unpopular virtually everywhere in the country and has not the votes to pass in Congress and most states and localities anyway.

No thanks.

[Ruby the Liberal]

23. I do not speak for the Democratic party. I speak as a citizen who is FED

THE FUCK UP with dog whistles about violence and neurotic 'second amendment remedies' from the lunatic half of this country.

[TheWraith]

24. +1,000.

The 1994 Assault Weapons Ban was one of the three biggest reasons we lost Congress for a decade, and helped bring us Newt Gingrich and the impeachment of Clinton.

This idea is a hundred times worse. Think three-quarters majority Republican House, 70 Republican votes in the Senate, and Republican White House.

Despite what a few people may believe, less than 20% of the American public actually supports getting rid of guns.

[Imajika]

31. Yup...

Gun Control lives on for some people on forums like this, but the Democratic Party knows better and, one can only hope, never becomes associated with it nationally again.

Why some people want to go down that toxic road again, especially in light of the fact that crime rates continue to drop as gun control laws have been eliminated, is a mystery to me.

[Statistical]

32. Well sadly it is more like 28% but going down. Still your point is valid.

[mzmolly]

27. Chris Rock has said the same thing.

Just an FYI. It's a great idea.

[Ruby the Liberal]

28. $5k a piece. Make people think twice

That is a hilarious bit.

[-..__...]

37. And hardly original...

Given Moynihan's statement.. it would appear that he was a bit of a comedian himself if any of his bug-eyed delusions regarding the capabilities of "Black Talon" ammo were a reality...

Among Moynihan's targets is the nine-millimeter Black Talon, touted by marketers for its "tissue-cutting" and "crushing" action. The New York Democrat wants to increase the cost of a box of these bullets from $15 to $1,500, in effect taxing the ammunition out of the market.

His proposals would also increase federal taxes (to 50% from 11%) on .25-caliber, .32-caliber and nine-millimeter bullets and impose a license fee of $10,000 on manufacturers and importers of handgun ammunition (companies dealing with only police or other government agencies would be exempted). The legislation would raise a projected $200 million a year.

http://articles.latimes.com/1993-11-15/local/me-56987_1_federal-tax

[piedmont]

30. Then you'd have a black market in bullets more massive than for drugs.

You can't put the genie back in the bottle. Bullets and cartridges can be manufactured and sold illegally, just like drugs.

[Ruby the Liberal]

36. True.

I wish I had an answer.

Maybe release non-violent 'criminals' (pot users for example) and double the sentances for gun crimes?

Don't know.

[Statistical]

39. How about release non-violent drug felons, end war on drugs, make sentences harsher

for repeat violent criminals (regardless of the weapon they use) and use the cost savings to massively expand public mental health.

Hell maybe you throw in a good social safety net, quality health care, affordable education, reasonable defense spending, progressive taxation and you might have a situation that resembles Canada.

You might also end up with a homicide rate that resembles Canada too.

[Ruby the Liberal]

42. Run for office and make this happen, please?

Just let me know where to send a check.

:toast:

[Statistical]

44. I wish I don't have the patients for politics. I will stick with computers & numbers.

At least they make sense. I would however donate the max to someone who promised to do half those things.

Seriously I think the violence in US (which is at a 30yr low btw) is more a condition of our culture and winner take all society than the availability of legal firearms.

Gun control is a bandaid on the rotting corpse of the American dream. Real solutions are hard and complex and cost lots of money which is why most politicians avoid them.

[piedmont]

41. I think those two are very much linked.

The prisons are so full from the "drug war" that violent criminals don't get the time they deserve. But this guy didn't have a record. I know from experience in my family that the mental health care system is even more f'ed up than health care as a whole. I don't have much faith that anything good will come of this, legislatively.

[Ruby the Liberal]

43. Richard Poplawski didn't have a record either

He only had body armor and automatic weapons and killed 3 cops in April 2009.

There HAS to be an answer.

What is the common denominator here?

[beevul]

46. He did not.

"He only had body armor and automatic weapons"


He did not have automatic weapons.

Just sayin.

[spin]

47. I can make ammunition ...

So can millions of other people. Many people have already stockpiled the powder, primers and bullets necessary for reloading. In fact you can cast your own bullets from lead.

You can buy a cheap but very effective kit on Amazon.com for $31.12


Lee Loader Kit For 45 ACP Md: 90262

I made 6000 .38 special rounds using one of these kits years ago. Then I bought more a more expensive set up which enabled me to reload ammo faster. Still the ammo I made using the Lee Loader worked just as good.

[upi402]

49. Tax ammo and insure guns yearly

to pay for the damage drunk shooters like Cheney do.

[minavasht]

52. Such a brilliant idea!

Ban bullets - why nobody else have come with this before?
It is such a simple solution.
Just write a law banning them and they will disappear overnight!
After all, bans always work - nobody can buy alcohol anymore, drugs are long gone, nobody downloads music illegally anymore!
With their shelf live of at least a hundred years, they will be gone in a heartbeat!
And the technology of making bullets is so complex, there are only 50 to 60 million reloaders to worry about.
Such a great idea!