KTAR: Gabrielle Giffords shooting devastates Jared Loughner's parents

[Mark Maker]

Jan. 10, 2011 10:00 PM
The Arizona Republic

A neighbor of Jared Loughner, the Tucson man accused of shooting Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords and 19 others Saturday, said his parents are ill, weeping uncontrollably, and devastated by the actions of their son.

"It's just as bad on them as it is anybody else," Wayne Smith told a reporter from KTAR-620 radio. "It wasn't them that did this heinous thing. It was an individual who's their son."

"They can't talk without breaking down and just crying, doing their best, you know, they're hurting."


Smith said he didn't know Jared Loughner and that his parents, Amy and Randy, have no idea what prompted their son to carry out Saturday's mass shooting.

Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2011/01/10/20110110gabrielle-giffords-shooting-arizona-loughner-parents.html#ixzz1AhgUBqEj

[pnwmom]

1. Few families can handle serious mental illness on their own.

Society needs to do a much better job of treating people with serious mental illness.

[LisaL]

6. I haven't seen any evidence the guy was ever diagnosed with

anything. How are you going to treat someone unless that someone actually goes to the doctor to be treated?

[pnwmom]

22. It's true that you can't force treatment on an adult unless

they've been adjudicated as a risk to themselves or others, and that that's very difficult to do.

He was banned from his community college unless he brought back some sort of certification from a doctor saying he was well -- that's certainly a sign that he needed help. But again, his parents wouldn't have been able to force him unless he attempted suicide, overtly threatened others, or otherwise openly posed a danger to himself or others.

[eppur_se_muova]

45. another legacy of Saint Ronnie ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=170862&mesg_id=170862

[pnwmom]

47. Interesting link, thanks.

A friend of mine had a schizophrenic, drug-addicted mother, but she was never able to get her mother any treatment. It was a nightmare trying to take care of her. My friend even bought a condo for her mother to live in -- but then the woman filled it with her druggie friends who did things like dismantle car batteries in the living room (to make meth, I think.) The condo board brought legal action and my friend had to evict her own mother, and then find somewhere else for her to live. (Because of the woman's "friends," her daughter couldn't have let her live with her own family.) The legal system was of virtually no help. When this woman finally died at age 70 it was such a relief.

[okieinpain]

76. been there. n/t.

[Little Star]

75. Well, then you haven't looked around DU much.....

I personally am waiting for a professional to examine & diagnose him.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

2. They are enduring the tragedy the way the rest of us are...

I think it would be wise to allow them to grieve privately.

Can you imagine how you would feel if your son did such a thing?

I would just want to crawl in a hole.

[TBF]

68. Exactly - we are all grieving for the victims,

but they are grieving for both victims and their son, I can't imagine how they feel. I suppose devastated and heart-broken to start with, along with guilt that they didn't somehow see and stop him ... so many different emotions.

[emilyg]

3. What a tragedy for everyone.

[Rex]

4. I don't understand why any of his friends didn't intervene before this tragedy.

From reports they all knew he was losing it fast and in a bad way...what teh fuck!?

[EFerrari]

5. Very little that anyone can do. In most places, everybody will tell you

nothing we can do until he commits a crime. No one wants to be stuck with the liability.

[mzmolly]

7. Exactly. It's very difficult to force an evaluation of the mentally

ill.

[Ghost in the Machine]

8. You ever heard of the Baker Act?

A Baker Act is a means of providing individuals with emergency services and temporary detention for mental health evaluation and treatment when required, either on a voluntary or an involuntary basis.

How are voluntary and involuntary Baker Act Admissions different?

A voluntary Baker Act is when a person 18 years of age or older, or a parent or guardian of a person age 17 or under, makes application for admission to a facility for observation, diagnosis or treatment.

An involuntary Baker Act is when a person is taken to a receiving facility for involuntary examination when there is reason to believe that he or she is mentally ill and because of his or her mental illness, the person has refused voluntary examination; the person is unable to determine for himself or herself whether examination is necessary and without care or treatment, the person is likely to suffer from neglect or refuse to care for himself or herself and such refusal could pose a threat of harm to his or her well being; and there is a substantial likelihood that without care or treatment, the person will cause serious bodily harm to himself, herself or others in the near future as evidenced by recent behavior.

http://www.clerk.co.okeechobee.fl.us/Baker_act.htm

They have other names for it in other states, too...

[LisaL]

9. As of now, we have no information suggesting anyone tried

to have Mr. Loughner committed.

[EFerrari]

13. Based only on what the biology teacher reported to the police

a sane society would have seen to it that this individual got an evaluation. Instead, he was only removed from the classroom and eventually, he was forced to withdraw from the college. The can was kicked down the road.

[mzmolly]

17. Yes. It's a shame the school didn't have some kind of authority

to order an evaluation, under the circumstances.

[LisaL]

20. The school told him he needs to get an evaluation if he wants

to return to class. He never returned. The school also send a letter to his home that he was suspended.
Police talked to him and to his parents.

[mzmolly]

28. Generally, a letter will not influence the severely mentally ill

to seek help. They need a forced 72 hour evaluation. Think Britney Spears.

[EFerrari]

21. I think on paper, they do.

They have to file a report that he's a danger to others. But in practice, no one does because if things go wrong, they'll be stuck with the costs.

It's Russian Roulette and we've been playing it for years.

/oops

[LisaL]

24. This reminds me a lot of Virginia Tech.

I think Pima college must be counting its lucky stars.

[EFerrari]

27. I know.

:(

[mzmolly]

31. Perhaps, but the "immediate danger" criteria

can be difficult to prove.

Yep. Oops. :(

[EFerrari]

34. I meant "oops" for my bad typing.

I was in that situation for about 6 years until we got Doug stable. My options were either to deal with it as best as I could at home or get him arrested. There was no hospital option. It was extremely dangerous and I wound up in the ER on three occasions and going to work with clothes and make up that covered bruises many more times. It was like living in the 19th Century at home while everyone else is living in the present.

When we add up all the people who interacted with this kid before the shooting, it will wind up being like fifty people. And none of them had the resources to get him and everyone else safe.

[mzmolly]

39. Oh, sorry for the misunderstanding on the oops.

And, I'm sorry for what you went through with your loved one. Far too many stories like this to be sure. Indeed. We can and should do better.

We've been fortunate enough to have a hospital option, but we've had to try and get my family member there willingly (several times.) Interesting trying to talk a bipolar/schizophrenic into going to the hospital for an eval, isn't it? :rofl: I shouldn't laugh but ...

[EFerrari]

41. Laughing is good for your circulation and it's free.

:)

[mzmolly]

42. Good to know on the circulation E.

:hi: Off to ZZZZZZZZ.

Catch ya tomorrow. :pals:

[Ghost in the Machine]

18. I didn't say anyone did, just pointing out that it's not that difficult to force someone into an

evaluation. That's what the poster I replied to suggested. Here in my county, all it takes is for a family member to say you're going nuts and the cops will take you in and have the guys in the white suits come pick you and take you to the mental hospital for an evaluation.

[mzmolly]

25. In my area it is indeed difficult.

It's not enough to be "going nuts." One must be considered immediate, deadly threat. And, if one is considered a threat, it's frightening to consider what law enforcement might do to a person under the circumstances. One risks getting a relative killed if they seek help in threatening situations.

Sorry, not easy. It's terribly difficult. I have a shizoaffective relative. I know of what I speak.

[EFerrari]

30. In San Francisco, if you report someone in a meltdown as a threat

they usually go to jail. So, you don't do that. Catch 22.

[mzmolly]

32. I remember a woman who was killed by police in my state

a while back. She was a Schizophrenic who thought police were a threat when they responded to a call for help. She had a butterknife in hand for protection when they approached and she was mortally wounded. That scenario played in the back of my mind every time my relative went off her meds and slipped from the edge of reality. Thankfully the person in question takes her meds now. ;)

[EFerrari]

37. Thank goodness.

I think I remember the butterknife lady.

[KittyWampus]

58. You are quite wrong. It's not just immediate threat IF THE FAMILY CONTACTS AUTHORITIES-

not bathing, eating taking medication are all grounds for a family member to have you brought in for evaluation and they can use force to do it. I know this for a certain fact because I had to make the phone call to find out that information.

Edit- at least in NY state. I'm sorry, should have read further down the thread. Hugs to anyone having to deal with mental illness in the family. Both my brothers are on life-time heavy duty meds. One has to go in weekly for an injection and they keep track of him.

[mzmolly]

63. I am not wrong when it comes to the laws in my state.

"The mentally ill have rights too" is what I've been repeatedly told as justification for these laws. I asked if they have the "right" to remain insane due to not getting proper treatment? The answer, essentially is yes.

[EFerrari]

11. The problem is, no one wants to take responsibility

for the involuntary commitment. Hell, no one wants to take responsibility for voluntary commitments because insurance is so bad for mental health issues.

No one wants the liability and that's why these families wind up exhausted and isolated.

[Ghost in the Machine]

23. I guess we just have a good mental health program around here then

They don't worry about money or insurance at first, and if you don't have it, they will help you get the insurance. They also have their own pharmacy right in the clinic in my county and will sign you up to get meds at reduced costs or for free...

edited cuz I kant spele gud ;-)

[EFerrari]

26. That's great. I know when we lived in the LA area

if my ex decompensated in Los Angeles, he'd go to jail. If he decompensated in Santa Monica, there was a chance he'd go to the hospital. But it was still much more complicated than it should have been and as a result, much more dangerous for me, he never would have hurt anyone else. Oy. We really need to to better than this.

[pnwmom]

52. Even when families seek the responsibility -- seek involuntary

commitment for their relative -- it is extremely difficult to get a judge to approve it. If the person appears rational for 10 minutes at a hearing, that's all the excuse the judge needs to say no (unless the person has already proven to be a danger to himself or others.) I had a friend who tried several times to get the court to appoint a guardian for her schizophrenic mother, but was never successful.

[mzmolly]

14. Ever tried to have an adult committed outside the state

of Florida?

Sorry, no name for The Baker Act in my state. In my state, the person in question has to be an imminent danger to self or others. Qualifying for that status is difficult, even if one is severely mentally ill. I know. I've navigated this system, on behalf of a loved one.

[Ghost in the Machine]

29. Yes, it's pretty easy where I live...

I see it and hear it every day here. I'm not saying it's not difficult in other states, don't take me wrong, but it has been pretty simple in the states I've lived in. I'm a Florida native and live in Tennessee now... even when I lived in Georgia I found their system pretty easy to navigate.

[mzmolly]

33. Glad to hear that. Perhaps Florida should be a model for

other states?

[Ghost in the Machine]

38. Yes, we definitely need better mental health services in this country

.. and we also need to get rid of the stigma attached to seeking/receiving mental health treatment, too.

[mzmolly]

40. Agreed. It is an illness.

Many forget that.

[pnwmom]

48. It's a nightmare here in Washington and in many other states.

You can be a heroin addicted, paranoid schizophrenic, but if you're smart enough to pull yourself together for a few minutes in front of a judge, you won't be adjudicated incompetent or have a guardian appointed.

I saw this happen over and over during the twenty years that a friend tried to get help for her mother. The mother didn't want help and the courts wouldn't do anything.

[foxfeet]

79. Guardianship and involuntary commitment are two separate legal processes

(at least in WA State) and use different legal standards. And if the state (or county, in WA) supports a petition for commitment with a preponderance of the evidence establishing current symptoms of mental illness (not merely a history) plus evidence of danger to self or others or of grave disability, it doesn't matter how the patient presents in court. There are, of course, judges/court commissioners who are poorly informed about mental illness and there are prosecutors who fail to present the best possible case given the available evidence.

EDIT: Spelling

[Dappleganger]

84. As have I, please read my post below.

We went through an incident w/my father a couple of years ago involving a gun in the state of VA. It was quite frustrating.

[pnwmom]

53. Just because the Baker Act exists doesn't mean that judges

are likely to use it. It's very difficult to prove that someone might cause harm to himself or others, unless threats have been made.

[TBF]

69. They get 72 hours -

and then if he's not obviously psychotic they've got to release him.. With this guy who knows - we've seen his crazy internet ramblings after the fact but who knows how he presented to family and friends. Some talk of obnoxious behavior, school suspended him, those are red flags. Whether they were enough to seriously worry his parents ...

[Dappleganger]

83. We have that here in FL.

When there was an incident involving a gun with my father a couple of years ago, my sister and I tried to get something like that applied to him in VA but failed. We were extremely frustrated but we were able to get a family friend who's a police officer and the owner of the gun to intervene and things ended ok.

[mzmolly]

88. Glad all ended ok.

Horribly frightening that a gun was involved. UGH.

[Carolina]

56. exactly

it's an absolutely awful Catch-22. Where I work, there was a similar situation with a guy that everyone knew was crazy. He never did anything that crossed that legal line and he was protected by legalisms and the Americans with Disabilities Act.

But he had that stare of Jack Nicholson in The Shining and he always thought people were out to get him. Oh and did I mention, he lost his healthcare insurance which was through his cowered wife when, of necessity, she switched jobs and moved away. Thankfully for us, he has now moved as well but sadly he will likely become some other community's problem! Just a matter of time.

[cali]

74. that's just uninformed. state law varies widely re mental health law

in Arizona it's quite easy to compel someone to have a mental status exam and to be put on a 72 hour hold.

[GReedDiamond]

12. It seems to me that his "friends" were more likely acquaintances,..

...random classmates, like the shocking-pink haired guy on Lawrence O'Donnell's (sp?) show earlier tonight. He recognized Loughner as an outsider, somewhat like himself, and tried to befriend him, which apparently did not work out.

The woman who had previously reported that he "smoked pot" and "listened to Anti-Flag" had not had any contact with him in 3 years or more.

Neither described any behavior indicative of a homicidal rampage in the works, as I recall.

Anyway, it seem that Jared had very few friends, especially in his later period, crazy mode -- where he seems to have undergone a personality change -- as he ramped up to the assassination attempt.

It's "fun" to speculate though, huh?

[Rex]

19. Sure is.

Seems he had no real friends at all.

[ScreamingMeemie]

36. Thank you for this...

I went 10 rounds today with people who wanted to know where his parents were. I think some forget that he is a grown up. I seldom know what my 20 year old is up to and she is currently living with me. The "everyone knew" seems to be people he was not necessarily ever close with. Plus, I think that Catie girl is full of poo.

[pnwmom]

49. What friends? People this sick often don't have any real friends.

They might have hangers-on, but they don't often have friends.

[maritimer]

66. they may not have been able to do much for him

Many municipalities, hospitals, clinics etc will not accept a patient unless he admits her/himself or is an imminent danger to him/herself and/or others. Ask anyone who has tried in vain to have someone involuntarily committed.

And this young man may not have shown those traits until it was almost too late.

This same argument is often (unfairly) applied to the survivors of a suicide ("why didn't they do something?") Hindsight is always 20-20.

Let's have some compassion for this family, truly there is enough compassion to go around.

[alittlelark]

10. My nephew sunk into heroin a year or so ago.

His parents say they had no idea.... but their eyes say otherwise.


Sometimes you Know - but the reality is too ugly and foreign to digest.
Cognitive dissonance erases the issue.

[Hannah Bell]

16. people don't know what to do, so they sit tight & hope for the best.

[pnwmom]

51. And what could they have done? They can't force treatment.

And it's not like most health care plans even cover mental health treatment (though they will by 2014, with the new plans.)

[kwolf68]

15. I feel for these parents

I felt sick when my then 5-year old son told a teammate on his t-ball team that he wasn't allowed to come to his birthday party.

I can't imagine this scale.

[Catherina]

35. "crying non-stop since Saturday"

...

On Monday, a neighbor said Randy and Amy Loughner asked him to relay their feelings.

"They're devastated, and they feel guilty for what happened," said Wayne Smith.

"They want to know, where did they fail? I told them they didn't fail, they taught him everything about right and wrong. We all know you can teach someone everything and have no control how it works out," Smith said.

Smith added that Loughner's mom has been in bed, crying non-stop since Saturday.

"It's really bad right now," said Smith.

...

http://www.kpho.com/news/26441052/detail.html

[kestrel91316]

43. I find it hard to believe they didn't know of some sort of mental issue with him.

[pnwmom]

50. Suppose they knew. He's an adult -- you can't force treatment

on an adult. A friend of mine tried for decades to get a Court to appoint a guardian for her drug-addicted, schizophrenic mother, but she never succeeded. I guess people are supposed to have the freedom to be as mentally ill as their illness drives them to be.

[lapislzi]

64. I have a friend whose adult son is mentally ill.

There is *nothing* she can do, as he consistently refuses treatment and medication. He gets committed for 72 hours every so often, and then he's back home, breaking windows and torturing the cat. She won't sign out an order of protection (at least she hasn't reached that point yet), because then he'd be homeless.

In the absence of any evidence to the contrary, I would be inclined to believe the Loughner parents, and to extend my compassion to them.

[Mojeoux]

44. I'm sure that poor Mom and Dad have been worried about him for a while.

But they never dreamed it could be this devastating. This is a nightmare, I feel bad for them.

[BlueCheese]

46. Reminds me of the reactions...

... of the parents and sister of the Virginia Tech mass shooter. Horror and a lot of guilt.

[Odin2005]

54. I couldn't imagine being in their position.

:-(

[NotThisTime]

55. Is that why they boarded up their house and wouldn't let the FBI in?

[EstimatedProphet]

57. Maybe it is

I for one can't even imagine the shock I would feel if I had a child who did such a thing.

[malaise]

59. They were probably hiding from the media

I sure would.

[Maat]

60. This retired social worker tried to help families with this situation many times.

Heck, during my internship, I was the one who signed the paperwork to get a patient committed on the seventy-two hour hold. Even if that succeeds, it's woefully inadequate.

I echo the sentiments of those who struggled with an ill relative; I empathize with them.

Our mental health system is so inadequate that the whole thing leaves me speechless.

What a tragedy all the way around!

[young_at_heart]

61. People forget that Reagan cut funding for mental health and it's been downhill ever since

What were Reagan's controversial social programs and cuts? One of the big ones was cutting funding to mental health. He kicked a lot of people out of mental hospitals, but never funded the community mental health programs that were supposed to keep them stable and out of the hospital. As a result, there was a tremendous increase in the number of homeless people.

[Maat]

62. Exactly (n/t).

[Arkana]

65. You'll have to forgive me if I'm not shedding any tears.

Loughner was clearly mentally ill and it was his family's responsibility to get him the help he needed.

[Ghost in the Machine]

67. Does your family know every aspect of everything you do?

It's not that hard to conceal things from others, even mental illness. You can put on a false front in front of your family, but let your true feelings and delusions out in an anonymous online setting.

[Arkana]

71. Seeing as how I still live at home, yeah--I think they do.

[Ghost in the Machine]

78. So they track your online activities, know what websites you post on,

know all your online user names and all your deep personal secrets and/or feelings? If so, is it because you are very open about your life and *make* it their business? How old are you, if you don't mind saying?

Some people might have a reason to conceal things, like maybe their parents would kick them out of the house or something....

[LisaL]

81. The college that suspended him send the letter to his home

about his suspension. Police had talked to both him and his parents.

[Ghost in the Machine]

85. And??

He was suspended for making a video and calling the college "unconstitutional". How does that equate to him possibly becoming a mass murderer? How does that show that his parents knew everything that he was into, what he was posting online, etc? Yeah, the college said in order for him to return to classes that he would have to show a mental health evaluation showing he wasn't a danger to himself or others. Nothing that I have seen about his videos seemed to indicate a predisposal to go postal, though.

[LisaL]

86. Well many people who read the you tube videos attributed

to him noticed how strange his logic was. I mean, based on the videos alone some people are throwing diagnoses around.
Did the parents ever try to get him mentally evaluated?

[Ghost in the Machine]

87. Oh, I agree, they make him look like a whackjob, but I don't recall anyhting suggesting violence..

I don't know if the parents tried or not, I haven't read anything to suggest they did, but it seems that it was only a condition to returning to classes, but he withdrew instead.

[Cleita]

73. Sometimes families can't because the law doesn't let

them. He wasn't a minor. However, I'm willing to bet that the family didn't see him as having a problem as many families don't or they may have intervened. We had a tragedy in our family and no one saw what was coming with this family member until it was too late. He was very good at covering up his problems around the family.

However friends and schools did see a problem, but there wasn't anywhere to send him for help because Ronald Reagan cut off funding for mental health care. I'm sure you remember. That's when the streets filled up with mentally ill homeless.

[Fleshdancer]

70. I feel bad for them

I have so many questions and it's inevitable to wonder how different things would be for everyone if his parents were able and willing to successfully get him the help he needed. Ultimately though, there's probably nothing I can think or say that they haven't already wondered since finding out what their son did.

This is a lose-lose situation for everyone.

[spanone]

72. i can't imagine....

[nolabear]

77. As an MHP I see this all too often. Who knows what their story is, but it's tragic.

I'll wait and see, but I've certainly experienced how hard it is, even for me as a therapist, to advocate for help. If there's no clear threat to self or others they can't be held against their will more than 72 hours (varies state to state but this is pretty ubiquitous) and if a crime hasn't been committeed law enforcement can't get involved.

This is a terrible problem with no easy solution, since we abhor the idea of the abuse of involuntary commitment and lack ways to make people who are delusional accept that they are ill. You can't force-feed meds w/o commitment, you can't commit w/o legal cause. We need other expensive and troublesome alternatives, and in a money-driven society that just isn't going to happen.

[foxfeet]

80. Well put.

Those of us who have been around long enough remember the days when people with mental illness were warehoused indefinitely with no regular review of their cases. They were subjected to brutal treatment methods like insulin shock and cold packs, which despite the brutality represented the state of the art treatment at the time.

One can make a reasoned argument that the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction, but nobody should be involuntarily committed when the most compelling evidence is "he has that look in his eye."

[steve2470]

82. Good post.

Parents have a life too. A loving parent can't spend their entire life chasing around a mentally ill son or daughter 24/7/365 or they will quickly become mentally ill also. People forget that the mentally ill have rights also, unless they have crossed over that invisible line legally.

I feel bad for his parents. I'm assuming, of course, they did what they could, within reason.