Execute him, says devastated father of nine-year-old girl killed by Tucson gunman

[wtmusic]

'She had a great morning, she got up early yesterday morning and was talking about the event, and how excited she was,' said Roxanna Green. 'She was very mature for her age.'

The granddaughter of former Phillies manager Dallas Green, she was taken to Giffords' informal town hall meeting by a neighbour who thought she would be interested in the event.

She died on the scene from a single bullet wound to her chest, one of six killed when alleged gunman Jared Loughner opened fire.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1345788/Arizona-shooting-Christina-Taylor-Greens-father-calls-gunmans-execution.html#ixzz1Ai5WrR4z

[greyl]

1. I don't think he said that exactly.

Might be seen as nitpicking, but there's a difference in attitude between 'execute him' and "It's a fairly clear-cut case, and I'm a fan of capital punishment in this regard."

[The Magistrate]

2. A Reasonable Enough Response, Sir

Anyone taking serious exception to it only demonstrates they have neither heart nor soul....

[cali]

37. absurd claim.

one can be opposed to the dp and have both heart and soul. to claim otherwise is reactionary nonsense.

[uppityperson]

49. Anyone holding a different opinion than you has no heart or soul?

I differ. I am against the death penalty, even in cases like this. Does that make me heartless and soul-less? I think you need to reconsider.

[Kurovski]

50. It certainly is reasonable, as would it be if he had snapped the shooter's neck

before the murderer reached his daughter.

[uppityperson]

58. What is not reasonable though is saying people of another opinion have no heart/soul

There is no "right" way to feel about this, there are many different ways and we all are different.

[Kurovski]

61. I understand.

But you would allow them their feelings, despite your views, would you not?

I think the point is to not let one's own feelings run roughshod over the unfathomable, furiously hopeless sorrow of another's at such a loss as this.

[uppityperson]

63. of course and yes. eom

[Kaleva]

3. I think I'd feel the same way.

If it had my daughter who had been murdered.

[Sherman A1]

4. I would like to see him tried, convicted in a court of law

and then sentenced to clearing land mines around the world. Put him under guard, give him a stick and let him go to it. Perhaps he could save the life of a child or even a few by doing so. Should one explode, well then that is just one less of them to hurt a child..........

[donheld]

6. Can Tom Delay go with him and help?

[Sherman A1]

47. Sounds good to me

along with a few Wall St. types.

[renate]

7. I like your idea

I'm not opposed to capital punishment, although I completely respect the views of those who are. It would be good if through your idea he could somehow preserve as many lives as he took. That said, this guy does seem more insane than evil; as indescribably horrible as his actions were, I'm not sure he was responsible for his actions.

However, under no circumstances would I criticize the parent of a murdered child for being pro-death penalty.

[Sherman A1]

46. I actually oppose capital punishment, but

there are times that I can find myself making an exception, this being one of them. I am not sure if he is more insane than evil, but in either event he needs to be kept away from the rest of society (and such things as guns) for the rest of his life. I would through my idea, simply like to make him somewhat useful to society again (even if briefly).

[HEyHEY]

5. He's clearly mentally ill. But yeah, let's just execute him, fuck it.

:eyes:

[JI7]

8. how do you know he is clearly mentally ill ?

it's possible he is just angry over being rejected in life .

[HEyHEY]

10. I'd say from what we've read about him so far, he sounds like he's got some problem.

[wickerwoman]

15. This is his mugshot:

and his youtube videos are textbook schizophrenic ravings.

He is mentally ill.

[Union Scribe]

28. Forgive my questioning your psychiatric training

but I don't know any mental health professional that uses, "just look at his face" as evidence of mental illness.

[wickerwoman]

45. I didn't claim to be a mental health professional.

I have schizophrenics in my family. I can recognize word salad when I see it. And I can tell when people are having psychotic episodes from pretty bitter experience. And yes, you can tell by looking at their face.

I was responding to a question about how he was "clearly" mentally ill. You can see from his eyes in the mugshot that he is not processing the world the way we do.

In my opinion, based on my experience with schizophrenics and manic depressive personalities, he is mentally ill. Take it for whatever it is worth.

[Kurovski]

51. That's not a mugshot, as reported by Rachel Maddow.

It is him, of course.

[Kurovski]

64. I meant, Maddow reported that it wasn't the mugshot. (nt)

[pnwmom]

Lots of evidence pointing that way. For example,

he was banned from his college unless he could return with a medical statement saying he was not mentally ill.

[pnwmom]

17. Lots of evidence pointing that way. For example,

he was banned from his college unless he could return with a medical statement saying he was not mentally ill.

[reggie the dog]

25. condoning the death penalty by society

and understanding a father's desire for revenge are 2 different things. i am anti death penalty but if someone murdered my daughter i would want to kill them. the reason it is good to have police and judges and no death penalty is that errors sometimes happen and a father could accidently kill an innocent, like in the clint eastwood directed "mystic river".

[aikoaiko]

26. Most mentally ill resist their urges or inclinations to act criminally

If he knew what he did was wrong then that is the standard I use for judging whether or not he should receive to harshest legally permitted consequences.

[cali]

38. most mentally ill people have no more urges to act criminally than anyone else.

[HEyHEY]

67. Yes, most do... and then sometimes one of them shoots five people.

[KansasVoter]

43. You are a deep thinker, I can tell.

[HEyHEY]

66. I was being sarcastic

[Rex]

9. I would expect anyone to say that after losing a loved one to violence.

Normal reaction; kill the killer.

[Rainbow Wave]

11. I'm opposed to capital punishment

But I'm certainly not opposed to having this guy clear up landmines across the globe.

[Raine]

12. I would feel the same if it was my child or loved one

that's why it's left up to others to decide.

[delightfulstar]

13. As much as I oppose capital punishment...

There is a place for it, and it should be reserved for the most cold-blooded of crimes. The OKC Bombing. The Petit murders in CT. And this may be another of those cases - Loughner killed a 9 year-old girl and a federal judge, and four other innocent people in premeditated fashion, and fully intended the same fate for Gabby Giffords, but fortunately, she survived. There's a special place in hell for people who did what he did.

[TBF]

33. That is how I see it as well -

I was opposed to capital punishment until the McVey case.

On this particular thread, I can only guess that the ones screaming so loudly about their principles are the ones who do not have children. Even if you don't agree with capital punishment, how can you possibly not understand the father's emotions right now? He may at some point change his mind, but this incident is only a few days old. Let the poor man grieve.

[cali]

36. no. you're not opposed to the dp. obviously.

[JCMach1]

14. As long as it is legal in America, this guy is a prime candidate

I have a more nuanced view of capital punishment. Personally, I am against it. However, as long as the majority wishes to continue it in this country it should be as fair and humane as possible.

[Vinnie From Indy]

16. What father wouldn't feel that way?

I have the deepest sympathy for this man and I can completely understand his desire for justice.

My heart goes out to all of the families and relatives of the victims of this horrendous shooting.

[NuclearDem]

18. No, just no.

Look, I'm not going to sit here and say I understand this man's grief, because I don't--I've never lost someone close to me in this way. But I still find his opinion sickening. Especially if he really said "execute him."

Is that really how we wants to remember his baby girl? By watching some other human being, no matter how evil or mentally disturbed he might be, be tied down to a gurney, paralyzed, silenced, and put through excruciating pain as drugs stop his heart? Is that going to be his last memory of his daughter, a cold-blooded act of vengeance, bloodlust (either his own or ours collectively) disguised as justice?

No. No fucking way. His daughter died attending a political event because she loved democracy, because she loved the American system. Well, here we are--we're at a point where we as Americans need to remind ourselves of who we are and what we promised the world in 1787 that we would be. We're supposed to be better people than to give into our grief and outrage, to call for another person's death. We're supposed to be the country that would say "No more" to that sort of weakness and that sort of evil.

Put him in prison. Or in a psychiatric hospital. Either way, keep him away from the general public, and if he ever can feel repentant for what he did, I hope it hits like a ton of fucking bricks.

But I'm not going to sit here and watch my America respond to a cold act of violence with another. No fucking way.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BzaDem]

29. NuclearDem, I find it odd that you base your opinion off of "what we promised the world in 1787."

The fifth amendment of the Constitution says:

"No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation."

I'm not sure how much clearer you can get than that. The framers in no way, shape, or form believed the death penalty (applied after due process of law) to be unconstitutional. The framers likely believed the death penalty as far away from "cruel and unusual" as you believe it is close.

Now, I'm not one to idolize originalism as a good method of interpreting the Constitution. But you are apparently stating that "what we promised the world in 1787" had something to do with not executing people, and that is simply false. Your argument made better sense resting on your own opinion.

[NuclearDem]

30. Fair enough, that's true too

In context though, I meant the 1787 reference to refer more to us allowing reason and law to drive our decisions towards justice rather than overwhelming emotion.

Your point is well taken though. The Fifth does say that...I just don't see a method of depriving someone of life in this day and age that isn't "cruel and unusual" as the Eighth forbids. All forms of capital punishment in the United States involve subjecting the executed to extreme anguish and pain, be it through firing squad, having thousands of volts passed through them, or being paralyzed and put through the excruciating pain of potassium chloride. If there were a more humane method, I would be a little less militant--still anti-capital punishment, but less Eighth Amendment about it.

It's less that I'm anti-death penalty because of it being wrong for the state to take a life, but more that I don't want to see people suffering as they do during the procedure. That's my main opposition.

[BzaDem]

31. People are put under anesthetic before the paralytic drug.

Now, there is a significant amount of evidence that sometimes, the anesthetic isn't strong enough to prevent someone waking up. But death penalty opponents who argued this to the Supreme Court said that it can be fixed by stronger anesthetic (actually by just using a lethal dose of anesthetic without the other drugs).

Unfortunately, the Supreme Court ruled against them, and said the current procedure is fine. That is a bogus ruling in my opinion. But from what I have read (and acknowledging I'm not a scientist or anesthesiologist), it does seem like there is a method that does not cause excruciating pain (even if it is not being used by most states at the moment).

[NuclearDem]

34. You're right about the anesthetics

But the problem arises when, after the anesthetic is administered, if it's insufficient to really put the person completely to sleep (as you pointed out) or if they're simply unresponsive to the people administering the drugs. If they do feel pain from the execution, the staff would have no way of knowing, since they would be paralyzed and drugged on anesthetics to the point where they can't respond.

So for all we know, they very well could be suffering immensely--they just have no way to express it.

Sure, if the procedure is done absolutely perfectly, I'll concede that that cocktail can result in a painless execution...but it so much has the potential to fail that I won't write it off as a truly painless execution method.

[formernaderite]

44. this kid will end up in a psych ward

he's not well, and as much as some on our side of the aisle would like to make this political...the guy is just nuts.

[uppityperson]

57. Each of us reacts in our own way. (thank you mods)

I cannot know how this father feels as I have never had to go through this, but I imagine the pain is terrible. I hope he finds peace at some time. Way too soon now, but at some time.

Thank you mods for clearing that up. Shaking my head here.

[Mojeoux]

20. Yes yes yes

If she were one of my babies, I'd be sedated.

[MrSlayer]

21. Absolutely.

This scumbag should die for his crimes when found guilty. Forthwith.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[B Calm]

23. Every time I see her picture I tear up. What a monster to kill a little girl!

[reggie the dog]

24. i am anti death penalty

but would want to kill the fucker if someone ever murdered my daughter like this. i can understand this reaction from the father. it is completely rational even for those of us opposed to the death penalty in general. he wants vengence and that is normal given where he is in life at this moment.

[The Magistrate]

27. Well Said, Sir

[SidDithers]

32. And this is why the justice process should operate independent of victims...nt

Sid

[TheKentuckian]

35. I oppose the death penalty but if the father were to take the perp out, if I was on his jury

I'd nullify.

[olegramps]

39. Isn't one aspect of the Death Penalty that it is supposed to deter serious crimes?

If it is, then I have pondered that perhaps it should be done in public and not behind closed doors with only a handful of witnesses. It could be argued that if people saw what happens to someone who murders a fellow citizen they wouldn't be so inclined to allow their emotions to get out of control or murder people while committing a crime. I don't believe that it would perhaps deter some, but seeing someone dangling on the end of a rope would certainly have some impression. I am inclined to think that if society sanctions the death penalty then it shouldn't be so squeamish about making it public.

[niceypoo]

41. So are guns

The right claim that the more guns there are, the less gun violence there will be. The US has the highest rate of private gun ownership on earth, thus we should be a violence free utopia, right?

[TheKentuckian]

53. We have thousands of years of recorded history that is crystal clear that whole concept is false

That definition of insanity thing is in play here for sure.

[MadHound]

40. No, no death penalty

Not in this case, not in any case, not even a case that hits far too close to home.

No.

[KansasVoter]

42. Death penalty is wrong, no matter what!

Too many mistakes made over the years!

[nadinbrzezinski]

48. I understand... and this is part of the tragedy

[Catherina]

69. +1 n/t

[uppityperson]

52. I hope her parents find peace at some time. eom

[treestar]

54. This is why we have a system of laws

So as to prevent vigilante justice. The victims cannot be objective.

I am against the death penalty still. I understand that if it were one of my own I would emotionally want the perpetrator dead. But fortunately, in that instance, I don't get to decide.

[Canuckistanian]

55. I imagine this is the opinion of many who have lost loved ones to murder

But we as a society don't allow family members to determine the punishment for perpetrators of violence. And for good reason.

We need to have a reasonable, fair and dispassionate punishment for crimes and the death penalty is not it.

Why should the imperfect state legal system get to condemn another human to death? What purpose does it serve? Some states have had the death penalty for CENTURIES and it doesn't seem to be deterring violent crimes. And yet some other states that ban the DP don't have a corresponding increase in violent crimes.

The rest of the developed, civilised world seems to keep violent crimes at bay WITHOUT the DP. Why does the U.S. still use it?

To me, it's just a way to satisfy feelings of vengeance in the public mind, while not addressing the root cause of violence.

And given the ABUSE of the DP in recent decades, especially in Texas, I really think the practice should be SERIOUSLY EXAMINED.

[Fleshdancer]

56. I see nothing wrong with a parent thinking this right after their child is murdered

I know I would if I were in his awful situation.

[flvegan]

59. I'd rather the crim suffer every single day given him rotting in prison.

But, I understand the emotional response from the father. Can't blame him a bit.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

60. He can say anything he wants and it will be forgivable.

Hell, if he said he wants a nuclear war to blow up tomorrow, I wouldn't begrudge him.

[WillyT]

62. No... Don't Execute Him... Study Him...

Does he deserve to be snuffed out... perhaps.

Does that lend to our understanding of how or why these people, and the many others that will follow, will come into being and threaten the rest of us?

The problem, one of the problems, with the death penalty, is that we get rid of the symptom without figuring out the disease.

:shrug:

[slackmaster]

65. The UT Tower shooter Charles Whitman requested that his brain be dissected after he was executed

IIRC a rapidly growing tumor (glioblastoma???) was discovered.

[LisaL]

70. He was shot during the attack, not executed.

[slackmaster]

71. You are correct!

Thanks.

[Maru Kitteh]

68. I would probably prefer to hack him to pieces with my bare hands, if it were my daughter.

At least that's how I"d feel in the immediate aftermath. I hope I would later come to see that the guy was hopelessly ill. That no civilized society should execute the severely mentally ill and disabled. That the death penalty doesn't solve anything.