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Glenn Greenwald: "Why would the White House possibly do anything other than ignore progressives?"

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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-11 12:34 PM
Original message
Glenn Greenwald: "Why would the White House possibly do anything other than ignore progressives?"




Daley is a reflection, not a cause
January 7, 2011

There's a fundamental distinction between progressives and groups that wield actual power in Washington: namely, the latter are willing (by definition) to use their resources and energies to punish politicians who do not accommodate their views, while the former unconditionally support the Democratic Party and their leaders no matter what they do. The groups which Obama cares about pleasing -- Wall Street, corporate interests, conservative Democrats, the establishment media, independent voters -- all have one thing in common: they will support only those politicians who advance their agenda, but will vigorously oppose those who do not. Similarly, the GOP began caring about the Tea Party only once that movement proved it will bring down GOP incumbents even if it means losing a few elections to Democrats.

That is exactly what progressives will never do. They do the opposite; they proudly announce: we'll probably be angry a lot, and we'll be over here doing a lot complaining, but don't worry: no matter what, when you need us to stay in power (or to acquire it), we're going to be there to give you our full and cheering support. That is the message conveyed over and over again by progressives, no more so than when much of the House Progressive Caucus vowed that they would never, ever support a health care bill that had no robust public option, only to turn around at the end and abandon that vow by dutifully voting for Obama's public-option-free health care bill. That's just a microcosm of what happens in the more general sense: progressives constantly object when their values and priorities are trampled upon, only to make clear that they will not only vote for, but work hard on behalf of and give their money to, the Democratic Party when election time comes around.

Progressives who do this will tell you that this unconditional Party support is necessary and justifiable because no matter how bad Democrats are, the GOP is worse. That's a different debate. The point here is that -- whether justified or not -- telling politicians that you will do everything possible to work for their re-election no matter how much they scorn you, ignore your political priorities, and trample on your political values is a guaranteed ticket to irrelevance and impotence. Any self-interested, rational politician -- meaning one motivated by a desire to maintain power rather than by ideology or principle -- will ignore those who behave this way every time and instead care only about those whose support is conditional. And they're well-advised to do exactly that.

If someone wants to lend unconditional support to Obama and the Democrats, there's a cogent (if not persuasive) rationale to justify it. But what I find baffling is that those who make that choice -- and who make clear that this is their choice -- then express surprise, anger and scorn in situations like the Daley appointment when the White House so blatantly ignores what they want. Given the posture of progressives, why would the White House possibly do anything other than ignore them (except when they're deliberately attacking them in order to appear more centrist)? What motive does the White House have for doing anything other than that? None that I can see.

Read the full article at:

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/




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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-11 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
1. the 'No where else to go party'. nt
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eomer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-11 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #1
14. Nowhere else to go, but the other option is to just stay home.
I spent several hundred hours as a local team captain for Obama in '08 and don't plan on giving any time in '12. Maybe I'll look for an incumbent in Congress with a progressive record and put my time there.
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-11 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. you and i are on the same page. nt
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-11 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #16
37. Option is to follow your conscience ... to do otherwise is to betray democracy --
Many here want you to cast a FEAR vote -- seems we've been doing that for quite

some long time now -- and guess some may do it again.

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hay rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-11 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #14
35. If Obama is nominated, my option will probably be a writein.
I volunteered for Obama and contributed in '08. Fool me twice, shame on me. I will only vote for a progressive Democrat in both the primary and presidential election.

I do not expect a "serious" primary challenge to Obama because he will have the overwhelming support of corporate interests and their money for the nomination, if not the election. I think the constructive way to oppose Obama and his corporate supporters is to create a movement which promises to vote for a Democrat other than Obama if he is the Democratic Party nominee and demonstrates enough support in the primaries to make Obama unelectable.

Let somebody else be the "stuck" voters.
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leeroysphitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-15-11 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #35
143. +1 Can't get fooled again. n/t
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-11 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #14
61. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
DearAbby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-11 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #1
135. Watch from my Living Room Party.
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-11 12:38 PM
Response to Original message
2. Some ass-kickings are deserved.
Edited on Tue Jan-11-11 12:39 PM by lumberjack_jeff
This is one. The truth hurts.

Draft Dean 2012.
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emilyg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-11 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #2
24. Love Dean.
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molly77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-11 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #2
26. Draft Dean 2012 . A real democrat.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #2
91. And more than just a few!
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-11 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #2
146. Dean--good.
Bullshitters--bad.

Kucinich, also good.
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DrDan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-11 12:39 PM
Response to Original message
3. a description of DU to a T
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kgnu_fan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-11 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. .
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-11 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #3
38. Well, we don't really know, because backing Dems is a requirement here ....
Edited on Tue Jan-11-11 09:25 PM by defendandprotect
unless you want to be T/S'd --

We can only wonder --

It does sound like a description of DU, however -- agree with that!

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Poboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-11 12:42 PM
Response to Original message
4. Recommend.
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-11 12:55 PM
Response to Original message
5. k n r
Edited on Tue Jan-11-11 12:55 PM by BrklynLiberal
almost at the point of Stockholm Syndrome...
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kgnu_fan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-11 12:57 PM
Response to Original message
6. kick
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darwell Donating Member (5 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-11 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
8. Obama appointee Sperling was key H-1B broker
Edited on Tue Jan-11-11 12:58 PM by darwell
pretty much flipping 'the bird' to labor

http://www.computerworld.com/comments/node/9204338
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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-11 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. Thanks for the link and reminder.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-11 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #8
39. Same with all the other appointees ... from day #1 --
Foxes guarding the hen house!

Same style as Bush --
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-11 01:05 PM
Response to Original message
9. The question is: which category applies
Edited on Tue Jan-11-11 01:05 PM by ProSense
If someone wants to lend unconditional support to Obama and the Democrats, there's a cogent (if not persuasive) rationale to justify it. But what I find baffling is that those who make that choice -- and who make clear that this is their choice -- then express surprise, anger and scorn in situations like the Daley appointment when the White House so blatantly ignores what they want. Given the posture of progressives, why would the White House possibly do anything other than ignore them (except when they're deliberately attacking them in order to appear more centrist)? What motive does the White House have for doing anything other than that? None that I can see.

I'm definitely in the first group. Obama isn't perfect, and I harbor no anger or scorn.

It's possible to support the President and be disappointed with some of his choices and policies. Greenwald frames it as either you support the President or not.




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JamesA1102 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-11 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. No Glenn frames is as either you're with him (Greenwald) or
your against him if you support the President. It's that the type of thinking we fought against during the Bush years.
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DeSwiss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #15
73. Bull nuggets.
"Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost." ~John Quincy Adams


- That's what I've always done and will continue to do. And I've always felt this way even before Glenn Greenwald was born.....
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JamesA1102 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #73
75. Good for you
but it doesn't change what Glenn is saying.
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-11 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #9
31. It's also possible to have..
... once supported him but to be now completely disillusioned with almost everything he has done.

Fail at health care reform, fail at financial reform, blank check to banksters and the military and crumbs to the middle class.

I now understand all too clearly how a marginal candidate came out of nowhere to win in a racist state, he was chosen to fill the position and now he's a figurehead just like Bush was.
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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-11 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #31
57. Total fail at HCR n/t
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leeroysphitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-15-11 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #31
144. +1
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jaxx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-11 01:12 PM
Response to Original message
10. Glenn must keep the people stirred up.
Looks like he pushed their buttons one more time.
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-11 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #10
19. No chance he could be correct? No worries, you'll figure it out
when we stop voting. I worked on the campaign down here in Texas in 2008 along with substantial monetary donations. That is not going to happen in 2012. Why should I bother to vote when nothing changes?
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DeSwiss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 01:18 AM
Response to Reply #19
74. +1000
:thumbsup:
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BzaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 07:17 AM
Response to Reply #19
77. Oh, you'll be voting again pretty quickly. For someone that would make you long for Obama.
Edited on Wed Jan-12-11 07:20 AM by BzaDem
One can only be disconnected from the real world for so long before the consequences of one's actions start being hard to deal with. It might take Roe v. Wade being overturned, or maybe that won't be enough, and it will take wars 3 and 4, but pretty quickly you'll be running back. Don't worry.
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 07:43 AM
Response to Reply #77
79. Your threats make you as bad as the GOP. I will not vote for fascism, period. nt
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BzaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 08:01 AM
Response to Reply #79
81. How am I making a threat?
Edited on Wed Jan-12-11 08:16 AM by BzaDem
I am not threatening anyone. Discussing the future is not making a threat. Repubicans have been trying to overturn Roe, start more wars, etc etc etc for years. I don't think it is bad in any way to simply recite what Republicans proudly admit they will do. I'm not claiming I'm going to be the one that does these things or wants these things to happen.
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bread_and_roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #77
97. except that voting for Ds won't necessarily keep any of those things from happening
that's where your equation breaks down. The Scraps and Bones Party is now so wholly owned by our Oligarch Overlords that even the bones are now cracked and the marrow sucked out before the plates are scraped into the midden for us to pick over.

One Party talks pretty. One foams or dribbles (a la Shrub) at the mouth. That's about all the difference I see.

And talk is cheap.
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BzaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #97
98. Yeah, actually, they will.
Roe v. Wade will not get overturned until a Republican replaces a Supreme Court justice. We are not going to start another "war of choice" (or two).

Your argument is basically the same as that of people who claim Gore would have gone into Iraq. This has about as much validity as the argument that the Earth is flat. Sorry.
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bread_and_roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #98
109. Rght. Just like Obama has restored Habeus, closed Gitmo, and ended the wars we're in
- oh, and restored transparency and put workers before Banksters. :rofl:

But out here in the real world we know that despite the paring away of Roe, it still stands at all because even R women support it. Which is not to say it won't fall if the Xtian Taliban get into power - but that's not likely either: our Corporate Overlords don't like them either, they just use them when convenient.

Sorry, but Obama put the final seal of approval on the notion that there's just one Party in US - the $$ Party.
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Pholus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #77
130. I've read you for a while. Still trying to figure out how this is supposed to be persuasive.

In fact, this "you'll take what you get and like it cause this is the only game in town" line actually gets my inner contrarian to separate from your position. Not enough to change my vote for President Obama next election but it definitely makes me feel less positive about it. It plays a larger factor when it comes time to volunteering and donating because you have to feel like a member of a team to get out there and sacrifice for it.

So I'm challenging you to THINK about better arguments than the divisive ones you're making right now.

Please.


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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-11 01:21 PM
Response to Original message
11. They'll start listening to the Left when the Left stops buying the "not as bad" excuse.
"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever, in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else, where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent. If I could not go to heaven but with a party, I would not go there at all." Thomas Jefferson to Francis Hopkinson, 1789.

"Were parties here divided merely by a greediness for office,...to take a part with either would be unworthy of a reasonable or moral man." Thomas Jefferson to William Branch Giles, 1795.

“Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost." John Quincy Adams
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-11 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #11
40. "Always vote for principle" .... Agree!!
Vote your conscience ....otherwise you betray democracy and the nation --

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Hell Hath No Fury Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-11 01:30 PM
Response to Original message
12. Excellent article.
And a lesson I have now learned.
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-11 04:18 PM
Response to Original message
17. Glenn Greenwald: automatic unrecommend n/t
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-11 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. Way to show your open-minded attitude. Typical. nt
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #20
107. Please see reply #106. n/t
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hay rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-11 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #17
29. Automatic rec.
Nah nah na nah nah.
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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-11 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #17
34. Proud to cancel your unrec
Nice doing business with ya.
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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-11 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #17
55. Automatic rec, 9 times out of ten, the rec and Greenwald will be right. n/t
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #17
86. Right? Wrong? What do you care? You're on automatic.
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #86
106. Automatic unrecommend is not a statement of whether something is right or wrong.
It is applied to the author of an article, not the article itself, because they have been at one time disingenuous.

If what they are saying is true, the chances are that someone who is not on automatic unrecommend will say it as well.

If each of an author's articles is judged on it's own merits, there is little incentive to publish truthful articles because they can continue to publish false ones and see which ones are interpreted as true, and do this as many times as they want.

With automatic unrecommend, they have more of an incentive to publish truthful articles every time, because they lose future chances to say things if they don't.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #106
112. LOL...the fact that you're probably proud of this post is killing me.
:rofl:
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #112
115. By going public and vocal, I may just start a movement.
That is sometimes how big things begin.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNi8aW8Nf6s
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #115
117. You've created many movements in me.
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #115
131. Got ego?
Edited on Thu Jan-13-11 04:12 PM by Jakes Progress
You're pitiful, automatic whining against Greenwald's reasoned application of knowledge and principle. Yeah. That's gonna start something.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #17
111. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
lfairban Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-11 04:56 PM
Response to Original message
18. K&R
nt
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Unvanguard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-11 06:23 PM
Response to Original message
21. Why would anyone do anything but ignore Glenn Greenwald? n/t
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-11 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #21
42. Why would anyone do anything but LISTEN to Glenn Greenwald?
After having lost so much in this administration, especially -- !!

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Number23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #21
64. Question of the Day.
:thumbsup:
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #21
113. Curiosity, courage to be challenged, an open mind....
Do any of these apply to you?
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Unvanguard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #113
121. I think you're misinterpreting my problem with Glenn Greenwald.
I read people who disagree with me all the time. Indeed, I probably read people who disagree with me substantially more often than I do people who agree with me.

My problem with Glenn Greenwald is not that I disagree with him--indeed, I agree with him about a great deal--but rather that he is wholly uninteresting. And he is wholly uninteresting in large part because he seems to lack those three virtues you mention: he has a dogmatic commitment to what he believes (again, quite aside from the question of whether it is right or wrong), and he portrays reality so that it behaves neatly in accordance with that commitment.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #121
122. Ok, that's a fairer answer then.
:toast:
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rateyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-11 06:37 PM
Response to Original message
22. Well, I'm one Democrat who was willing to see my blue dog go down in flames
And, he did. And, I'm glad. Yeah, we got a Republican, but the truth is, we had a Republican who called himself a Democrat. Bye, Jim Marshall. Good riddance.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-11 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #22
43. It was becoming Rahm Emmanuel's "blue dog" party --
the Democratic Party has been disappeared by elites/money and corporatism!

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emilyg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-11 07:05 PM
Response to Original message
23. k/r
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-11 07:21 PM
Response to Original message
25. Deleted message
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
BlueCheese Donating Member (897 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-11 08:04 PM
Response to Original message
27. The public option...
The leaders of the 70+ member House Progressive Caucus wrote a letter saying that without a public option, there would be no deal. According to FDL, some sixty members signed a letter to that effect.

Bart Stupak and his band of half a dozen conservative Democrats demanded some anti-abortion provisions before they would support the health insurance bill.

One of these groups had much more bargaining power than the other. The other group got what it wanted.

"Progressives" (I identify with the term liberal, myself) are simply bad at politics.
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hay rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-11 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Or
One group was bluffing because even with their unanimous support, the public option was going no place, while the other group knew that their handful of votes was the difference between a deal and no deal.

I don't blame (us) progressives, I blame (us) Americans.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-11 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #28
47. 76%+ of Americans wanted government run health care/single -payer ....
that was ignored by the Democratic Party -- big time!!

And in back room deals by Obama, the public right to universal health care

was dealt away to Big Pharma and private health care industry.

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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-11 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #47
62. Lives exchanged for coin. It's been going on for millennium. nt
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-11 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #27
44. Don't forget that Pelosi met with the US Catholic Bishops! And took a phone call from Rome!!
Edited on Tue Jan-11-11 09:39 PM by defendandprotect
Imo, we aren't talking about legitimate political power -- i.e., a people's

government -- a government of, by and for the people --

We are talking obviously about a Goldman Sachs party -- Wall Street --

a party based on keeping Big Pharma in place no matter the costs to Medicare --

a party based on keeping PRIVATE health care industry in place ... and then bragging

about that! All back room deals -- which have harmed the people -- denied the public

what it supports -- MEDICARE FOR ALL 76%+ -- even Catholics supporting a full range

of reproductive health care to be covered -- including even simple CHOICE by 51%.

That's abortion for any reason whatsoever.

Obviously -- the Vatican does have to chase around to keep control over women these days!

But if they lose that control, where are they going?

Meanwhile, Obama has INCREASED taxpayer funding for their "faith-based" religious orgs.

Money that began to roll in when they needed it the most -- to pay off their pedophile

lawsuits. Thanks W!!



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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-11 08:28 PM
Response to Original message
30. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
norske Donating Member (21 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-11 08:37 PM
Response to Original message
32. Nailed it again Glenn
Dems and Repubs....two heads of the same corporate party serving to give the illusion of democracy, of choice...where there is none.

Pres. Obama continues to pursue the neoliberal policies of his predecessors...which Glenn and others point out on a regular basis to the derision of the Democratic faithful whose blind allegiance leads us further into inverted totalitarianism. There has been a corporate coup d' etat....and they won. The majority of Democratic politicians do covertly that which the Repubs do overtly. Time to wake up.
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BzaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-11 08:43 PM
Response to Original message
33. Ironically, Greenwald's perscription would result in progressives being ignored even more than they
think they are now.

Why? Simple. If (say) 3 percent of people who claim they are from the left are irrational enough to vote against the Democrat, that's just another 3 percent politicians need to make from centrists by moving to the right. Irrational actions have consequences, and they are often not desirable to those who complete them.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-11 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #33
48. However, you make a fine argument for liberals/progressives moving as a voting bloc ...
and they could possibly back some other Democrat --

Discussions yet to be held here at DU!!

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BzaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-11 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #48
52. Except 87% of liberal Democrats support Obama. So if there were any such moving as a bloc
it would be against third party candidates, not for them. Third party candidates do not succeed when the current Democratic president is more popular among Democrats than any President in 50 years.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-11 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. I said a "Democrat" -- a challenger -- and as for your claim
that 87% of Democrats support Obama :rofl:

You couldn't find 87% of DU'ers right now who support Obama --

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BzaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-11 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. Oh, I never said 87% of DUers support Obama. My point is that DUers are much less representative of
Edited on Tue Jan-11-11 10:04 PM by BzaDem
progressives than many people think.

Gallup has been measuring liberal democratic support for Obama every week. This week it was 87%. Last week it was 85%. The week before it was 91%. It has basically always been 80+ (and usually 85+) for his entire term.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-11 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #54
59. Still laughable --
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BzaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-11 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. I guess people who don't like what the data shows often consider the data laughable. (Global warming
is an example -- Republicans think the consequences are laughable, since they don't like what the data shows.)
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #60
104. Yes, GOP is laughable, especially re their oil industry fight vs Global Warming ....
they're paid to be "laughable" by their sponsors!

Again -- you couldn't find 50% support for Obama here at DU --

why do you think that is vs the claimed 87% --

are they living in some bubble?



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BzaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #104
119. So you are saying tens of millions of Democrats are living in a bubble, rather than the relatively
few who post on DU? In other words, the problem is with everyone else, rather than yourself?
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #119
120. All of America is living in a bubble.
Pointing at others and saying they're the ones in it just shows that one hasn't seen their own bubble yet.
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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #54
65. Not a registered Dem anymore, x 2 in our house ...
funny how percentages can possibly lead one astray.



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BzaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #65
68. Even self-identified liberals approve of Obama.
By something like 3-1. And that includes liberal Republicans who don't like Obama -- if you factored those out it would likely be even higher.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #68
105. Think you need a little review of manipulation of statistics ... and polls ....
computers ...
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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #68
128. .
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grahamhgreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-11 01:27 AM
Response to Reply #33
147. Wrong. That 3 % influences 30%
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-11 09:17 PM
Response to Original message
36. We can't really be sure of what DU'ers may do ... imo, we have reached the Rubicon ....
Edited on Tue Jan-11-11 09:18 PM by defendandprotect
Differences between the two parties are fading faster than snow melts --

There will now be no way that I can vote for Obama -- and Biden is showing

himself to be despicable in calling on Israel for a year now to attack Iran!

And currently, Biden is calling for troops to remain in Afghanistan past the

2014 date Obama only released the other day -- and which already is a waffling

on his earlier 2012 date -- or was it 2011? We need to end these wars and

bring some political sanity back into America's government -- and Obama is

obviously NOT the person to do that.

The more we ignore our conscience when we cast our votes, the more we harm

America and democracy.

Count me out -- it will be a write in for a Democrat I can respect.

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TheMadMonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-11 09:28 PM
Response to Original message
41. So? The solution is obvious. A third political party.
Forget take back the fucking party.

Take back the bloody people or else....
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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-11 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #41
45. Some progressives believe we need a second political party.

:)
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-11 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #41
49. Wealth has a deadlock hold on the Democratic Party ....which means
that any notion of it being about the "people" any longer is a fantasy.

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me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-11 09:39 PM
Response to Original message
46. Recommended
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NuttyFluffers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-11 09:45 PM
Response to Original message
50. exactly. giving up your power by guaranteed support makes you impotent & ignorable.
retaining your power by unpredictability makes you potent and listened to.

anyone selling you the former wants you to be impotent and ignorable. they want you to JUST GO AWAY. they do not have your best interests at heart -- ever.

and thus all policies that promote such attitudes is a direct assault upon personal sovereignty and the very notion of democracy.

get it? got it? good.
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Matariki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-11 09:46 PM
Response to Original message
51. It's why we need run off voting and/or far more than just two parties
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norske Donating Member (21 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-11 10:25 PM
Response to Original message
56. The system is broken
The system is broken...which is why people like Rahm can make statements such as "Where else are they going to go." And as difficult as it is to believe, Daily is even worse.

Voting for the lessor of two evils is getting old quick. Sure, Obama was a better choice than McPalin but with two illegal wars and continued torture programs...I think the nuance of being killed by McPalin or Obama policies is lost.....

Both parties use the manufactured divisiveness to their advantage...with the result being the ever increasing inequality of wealth and disparity of income of any industrialized nation.
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-11 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #56
63. Then it's up to us to fix it. Two actions would reverse our course:
REAL election reform. Limit campaign spending. Money does NOT equal speech. If a candidate can't run an effective campaign on a tight budget, they can't run a city, State or Country on a tight budget either.

Reinstate the Fairness Doctrine. Democracy cannot exist when only one group owns the bullhorn. Again, money does NOT equal free speech.

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Tigress DEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #63
67. I agree!! AND no more black box elections as a 3rd point.
If you can't actually count the ballots, then the ballots count less than the integrity of the counters.

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snot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #67
72. +1
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #67
101. +18181 nt
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BzaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #56
69. You may think it's "getting old," but the old becomes new again once people see the consequences of
their actions on full display. (See Nader's vote share, 2000 vs. 2004.)
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #69
116. Too true, yet, the current trajectory isn't exactly the ideal one either.
In 2012, we'll vote for Obama again, but after that, we'll probably try to get another center-right guy in the White House. Obama did win after all. Better than electing a far right nutjob like GWB again, but there's a huge argument over what the Supreme Court did in the matter as well.
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norske Donating Member (21 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-11 10:28 PM
Response to Original message
58. Broken system
The system is broken...which is why people like Rahm can make statements such as "Where else are they going to go." And as difficult as it is to believe, Daily is even worse.

Voting for the lessor of two evils is getting old quick. Sure, Obama was a better choice than McPalin but with two illegal wars and continued torture programs...I think the nuance of being killed by McPalin or Obama policies is lost.....

Both parties use the manufactured divisiveness to their advantage...with the result being the ever increasing inequality of wealth and disparity of income of any industrialized nation.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 12:36 AM
Response to Original message
66. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
snot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 01:03 AM
Response to Original message
70. K&R'd
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DeSwiss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 01:08 AM
Response to Original message
71. "That is exactly what progressives will never do."
- Think again.

K&R
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BzaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 07:23 AM
Response to Reply #71
78. I guess what he really means is that progressives won't continue to do it.
Edited on Wed Jan-12-11 07:30 AM by BzaDem
For example, you might very well vote to enable a Republican candidate in 2012. You have that right. However, once Roe is overturned, wars 3 and 4 are started, the tax rates are lowered far lower than what Bush ever got through, Medicare is voucherized, etc, you'll be running back to vote for Ben Nelson if he's the nominee.

See, humans have evolved so as to not act irrationally for sustained periods of time. That's why Nader's vote share was cut in 10 from 2000 to 2004. As bad as 2000 was, at least it was a teachable moment for those who believed there was no difference. Perhaps we need such teachable moments every so often for reality to sink in. I hope not (mainly for the sake of people who need to get taught), since the lesson is often not very pleasant for them.

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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 07:46 AM
Response to Reply #78
80. People will only believe your rhetoric if they believe in voting -
many of us have lost faith that it makes any difference. Instead of lecturing and admonishing those folks you should be reaching out. Wonder why you're not?
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BzaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 08:08 AM
Response to Reply #80
83. Just because people think at the current moment that there is no difference does not mean that they
Edited on Wed Jan-12-11 08:19 AM by BzaDem
will hold this belief in 4 years. Nader lost 90% of his voters from 2000 to 2004. The less difference one thinks there is, the greater wake-up call there will be (as 2001-2004 was).

"Instead of lecturing and admonishing those folks you should be reaching out. Wonder why you're not?"

That depends. For people who simply don't follow politics very much and aren't aware that we live in a two-party system, I do reach out and explain our system to them. But for people who know very well that the action they are announcing now will enable a Republican to be elected, there's little point in engaging in discussion. The only thing that will change their mind is pure unadulturated reality.

I personally tend not to distinguish much between people who enable Republicans and claim they are from the left, and people who enable Republicans who claim they are from the right. It's their action that matters, not their words. A Republican could claim they are for the poor and middle class till the cows come home, but they will (the very next day) vote for John Boehner for speaker. I discount their words, because their actions/votes are all that matter. Similarly, someone can claim they are on the left, progressive, etc etc etc. But then the very next day they will state an action in the voting booth that has the effect of enabling a Republican take power in 2012. At that point, why do intentions/ideology matter? Why would anyone place any weight on differences in intentions or ideology when the actions identically enable the Republican? This is not to say that the claimed intentions are the same -- they are not. It is to simply ask why anyone cares about such differences, or assigns any weight to them at all.
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 06:34 AM
Response to Original message
76. Ouch
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 08:08 AM
Response to Original message
82. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
BzaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 08:18 AM
Response to Reply #82
84. What if you knew conclusively that the fewer progressives vote for Obama, the more he shifted to the
right to make up for their votes with Independents?

At that point, what wins out? A desire to make the country as left as possible, or pure spite?
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #84
93. Too late. He betrayed me
in several key ways. No amount of coercion will change my mind now.
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BzaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #93
96. Who said anything about coercion?
Edited on Wed Jan-12-11 10:41 AM by BzaDem
Your answer seems to be that you would still vote against Obama, even if you knew that would move Obama, the Democratic party, and the country to the right. That's spite (as opposed to trying to influence the direction of your country). That answers my question.

You of course have the right to vote out of spite -- I never claimed to try to "coerce" you otherwise. (Of course, the hard and painful lessons you will learn about Republican rule after 2012 will ultimately change your mind by the following election, even if you don't realize it now, but that is a different question and has nothing to do with me coercing you to do anything.)
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #96
100. Obama has moved plenty far enough
to the right with no encouragement from me. All I did was send him money, campaign for him, wrote him to ask that he get out of Iraq and Afghanistan, told him "No mandate without a public option." and asked that he protect social security and the internet.
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BzaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #100
118. Assuming you are correct for the sake of argument, why do you assume the alternative won't be orders
of magnitude more to the right?

In other words, what if the choice is (at least for the foreseeable future) between someone like Obama and someone like Gingrich? What if that IS the choice, and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it (other than pick between them)?
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 05:12 AM
Response to Reply #118
123. Then at least the Republican Party
will rightfully get the blame for destroying the nation. As it is now the Democratic Party will held responsible.
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BzaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 06:11 AM
Response to Reply #123
125. But I think you are assuming that after this "blame," they will elect someone who's policies
Edited on Thu Jan-13-11 06:11 AM by BzaDem
you like.

What I'm asking is, what if this won't happen? What if for the next (say) 60 years, the only choice actually is between the current Republican party and the current Democratic party? In other words, if they blame one, they'll go to the other, and then if they blame other, they'll go to the one? Back and forth, without any chance of a third party ever getting elected?

Under that assumption, do you still think it is a good idea to enable the election of a Republican?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 07:42 AM
Response to Reply #125
126. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
BzaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #126
127. Just because someone is on the ballot doesn't mean they are a viable alternative.
Edited on Thu Jan-13-11 09:20 AM by BzaDem
It doesn't matter how much they are "bolstered." Just because you want alternatives doesn't mean you are going to get alternatives. We live in a two-party system, and until the Constitution is changed to remove winner take all elections, the electoral college, and institute instant run-off voting or proportional representation, we will continue to live in a two-party system.

So in the end, we have two choices (on a whether-you-like-it-or-not basis). You are absolutely free to enable one or the other (and no one can take away that right of yours), but no action you take will do neither. Not voting for the lesser of two evils simply enables the greater of two evils. This is a mathematical fact in any zero-sum game, and the laws of mathematics are not subject to change. While both parties have always and will always have a tiny portion that will be dissatisfied with anyone that can get nationally elected, none of that changes the laws of mathematics.
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jeanpalmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 08:55 AM
Response to Original message
85. How many people on here are willing to punish Obama
Not very many. Even many of the ones who are unhappy say in the end they'll vote for him. If we had a united front that demanded he end the wars immediately, tax the rich, and bring the jobs back, or else... he would pay attention. But there's too much adulation and as a result he's going to do the bidding of the people who have threatened to use their power against him. That's why we're always going to get the short end of the stick.
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 09:35 AM
Response to Original message
87. Glenn. Right again.
I actually see this article as Glenn trying to get the progressives to actually do something. Democrats relied on the African-American vote as a given for years and ignored their concerns. That is one reason that we have more yet to do in the area of discrimination and civil rights. Now they ignore progressives and play to the rich and wanna-be rich hatred of unions and "big gumment". It's a shameful and nasty way to be, but they prefer to ignore principle.
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BzaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #87
88. Except that 93% of African Americans and 87% of liberal Democrats approve of Obama.
So while there is certainly a tiny portion of both parties that will always dislike its nominees, I don't think the vast majority of African Americans and progressives would agree with your opinion that they are being "ignored."
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #88
89. Thank you for making my point.
You get the prize is winning is the more important than principle - if beltway wisdom reigns. And I think if you believe your last statement you don't spend much time with either African Americans or progressives.
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BzaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #89
90. Have you ever considered that the people you spend time with aren't necessarily a representative
Edited on Wed Jan-12-11 09:56 AM by BzaDem
sample?

I am posting a representative sample (Gallup's actually). You are saying this is incorrect, because of something about the people you spend time with. Are you saying your unrepresentative sample is more accurate than Gallup's representative sample? (Or every other polling company's representative sample? Since they all basically say the same thing in this regard.)
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #90
92. Have you?
Show me the Gallup poll that says that the majority of African Americans feel that their concerns are being met by the government? Don't "interpret" the results of the stacked questions that show "favoring" as a response that means they believe they are being considered. Compared to mcain, I favor Obama. But I know that he is unconcerned about the issues that I find important. And the sloppy methodology that lets respondents self-identify is how you get "satisfied" progressives. If you were a part of the poll, you would likely self-identify as a progressive, but I don't think your priorities would put you in line with my progressive friends.

But again. If winning is all you care about, then anything is fair. Any goal can be achieved if you can manage to jettison your principles.
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BzaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #92
94. I don't think your explanation about "liberal" self identification works very well.
Edited on Wed Jan-12-11 10:33 AM by BzaDem
You are saying that the "liberal" category is overinclusive (since, according to you, non-liberals self-identify as liberals). But only 20% or thereabouts of the population identifies as liberal. If there is a significant portion of self-identified liberals who really aren't liberals, then the "real liberal" portion of the country is going to be significantly less than 20%.

Do you think the "real liberal" portion of the country is significantly less than 20%?

"If winning is all you care about, then anything is fair. Any goal can be achieved if you can manage to jettison your principles."

I think the problem is that you are making an unfounded assumption. You assume that Obama and the Democrats are "jettisoning your principles," and then use that assumption to conclude that all they care about as winning. But my entire point is that the vast majority of African Americans and liberal Democrats do not think Obama or the Democrats are "jettisoning their principles" at all. It isn't just Obama that most progressives approve of -- they also approve of key Obama initiatives in every poll I have seen (Healthcare, Financial reform, the stimulus, etc).
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #94
132. Wrong direction.
First we were talking about progressives. Do you conflate the term progressive and liberal? And again you self-reference the polls definition to define the terms the polls use.

I would think that most of DU are progressives. I think most of them support Obama over mccain or palin. I also think, from reading the postings here that most believe that this administration has veered to the center and away from progressive goals, that they largely ignore the progressives of the country when they aren't actually whining about the progressives in the country.

We will have to just disagree if you want to think that the actions of the last two years were indicative of an administration hewing hard and fast to a progressive agenda. Beginning with health care where single payer and public option were given up before the discussions started, and where the administration started its efforts with a back-room deal with pharma. Continuing with an un-winnable and immoral war was added to the administration's goals, while refusing to examine the lies and greed of the last administration which led to those wars is not a progressive stance. The number of gifts for the ultra rich and powerful of the country at great cost to the average citizen do not make for a progressive record either.

Hence my statement that people who live with polls and read their meanest details as significant are those who have jettisoned principle for winning. Doing the right thing is obvious. You wouldn't need predetermined points on preset polls to tell you if you are doing right. You spend more time with polls than is healthy. You give them more credence than they deserve.
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BzaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #132
133. I'm asking you if you believe a necessary implication of what you are saying.
Edited on Thu Jan-13-11 10:32 PM by BzaDem
You are giving me substantive reasons why you appear to disagree with the Obama's administration's approach. That's fine, but that has nothing to do with what I'm saying. You are basically saying that there is no need to test your theory with public opinion, because you are "obviously" correct. However, fortunately for the country, public opinion matters, and what you (or I) consider "obvious" does not. If the public thinks it is just as "obvious" that you are wrong, than what you think is not extremely relevant. This is not to say that the public is always "right" in some subjective sense. It is just to say that public opinion matters because we live in a democracy, so it only makes sense to put your theory up to some sort of objective test.

You are saying that people respond in polls as "liberal" when they are really not liberal, and that's why Obama's approval rating is high with self-identified liberals. I get that's what you are saying. It is a specific critique of the poll. Got it.

But if that critique is accurate, wouldn't the number of real liberals be less than 20% of the country (since the broader, self-identified category is only around 20% in basically every poll)? In fact, isn't it the case that the more true your critique is, the fewer real liberals actually exist in the country, based on the data?
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-11 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #133
134. No. You are playing with words.
I am asking if you believe that the last two years have been driven with by a forceful progressive spirit. And again you like the numbers that you cull from piles of meaningless numbers compiled by people with an agenda that supports the status quo.

Why do you avoid reality and hide in made up numbers? I've got numbers for you. The unemployment rate. The number killed in Iraq and Afghanistan. The billions more that the richest .5 % will make now than they did two years ago. The foreclosure rate. The billions in Wall Street and banker bonuses. Do you have any comment about those numbers. They are real. They represent real people. They are not constructs put together in a little room of a corporation by people desperately trying to keep some kind of job.
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BzaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-11 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #134
136. "Why do you avoid reality and hide in made up numbers?" Isn't that what Republicans say about global
Edited on Fri Jan-14-11 11:36 AM by BzaDem
warming? They really don't like that the data completely contradicts their worldview, so rather than re-evaluating their worldview, they attack the data (as if the data is somehow wrong).

My response to them would be that perhaps the one "avoiding reality" is the one discounting data they aren't thrilled about. That would also be my response to you.

Your entire post suffers from the fallacy of assuming the President is somehow a dictator. The unemployment rate is not a knob that the President can unilaterally adjust. The foreclosure rate is not a knob the President can unilaterally adjust. Banker bonuses are actually also not knobs that the President can unilaterally adjust. So to the extent that you blame the President for these numbers ipso facto, you are wrong as a simple matter of logic. You may as well be blaming the President for the strength of the force of gravity. That's a "real number" too you know.

If you want to actually judge the President, as opposed to blame him for things outside of his control, you have to look at his actions relative to what was possible. He passed the biggest stimulus that could pass the Senate and attract a few Republicans to get 60. He passed the biggest re-regulation of the financial industry since the great depression, and still amazingly got the few necessary Republican votes to do so. He fortunately disregarded those that wanted him to play a game of chicken and let all tax cuts expire (resulting in a 300 billion per year increase on the poor and middle class, taking away thousands per year from families at the poverty line, which would have certainly spiked the unemployment rate).

Those represent real actions that the President has done on the economy, and compared to what was possible, the President has performed masterfully. Perhaps why liberal Democrats almost unanimously think you are totally wrong (at a rate of nearly 10-1).
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-11 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #136
137. So your response is the tired old "you must be a republican".
You don't have to start calling me a republican or bringing up issues that are not under discussion. Don't you feel a little silly and small with that shot? You should.

It is possible that we will just disagree. I don't feel the need to call you names or suggest that you are not a Democrat. So you should behave.

See, I do not feel that the office of president is a cypher, a helpless little pawn to the whims of congress. History does not support your excuses here. I really think you are smart enough not to use such sloppy logic as claiming that my post suggested that the presidency is a dictatorship. I feel that the actions of the president for the last two years have not been as vigorously progressive as they could have been. He has argued, fought, politicked, made deals, and stood firm for things that have greatly improved the lives and fortunes of the richest people in the country. He has consistently given in, buckled, and waffled when the issues were those that would favor the common man over the rich. I applaud the small things he has done. I know that we would have been worse off with any republican. I'm afraid you are correct when you suggest that the president has done all that he can on progressive issues. It's just that those efforts were not good enough and his skills, other than oratory, have not been adequate to the needs.

You see that as a thing to celebrate. I think we have not been well-served. We disagree.
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BzaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-11 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #137
138. Where did I call you a Republican? Pointing out similarities of how two groups react to data is not
Edited on Fri Jan-14-11 03:13 PM by BzaDem
in any way accusing you of being a member of their group. I was talking about one specific issue (acceptance or denial of data) -- not broader ideology or anything like that.

As for the President's power, I actually think history does support what I am saying, but since you don't provide any evidence that history supports your view, I have nothing to respond to. FDR and LBJ had MUCH bigger majorities in the Senate (and House) than Obama had.

You say Obama has "given in, buckled, and waffled," but you don't provide a single sentence in support of the idea that doing so wasn't the BEST alternative out of the ones available to him.

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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-11 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #138
139. Crock.
Suppose I point out that you and beck both think similarly about the president's speech? You love to talk about all your data but you don't mine playing loose with logic or with decent discussion. You could have just said that you think I don't accept data (your data) but you didn't. You shoved in the republican crack. Then when it is pointed out, you squirm and say that wasn't what you meant. Low.

As for the denial of data, I reject your data as being biased. Do you trust all polls? Do you think any polls that show Obama in a bad light might be rigged? Or do you just pick the ones you think are sacred? You can't honestly use them one day and deny them the next. You haven't told me if why you think these particular poll numbers are so holy other than they support your dreams.

You haven't provided any evidence in support of the idea that giving in, buckling and waffling was the best alternative. I'm pissed that we have blown our chance for real health reform, that we are still at war, that corporate greed is being fed now more than ever. I do not think that caving in before you even start is the best way to go. I don't believe that the highest priority in our country is getting the republicans to like us.

I think that the president has done both of those things. It is obvious that you don't. I think we will not have a chance to find out since we have been told that we will keep on doing what we've been doing only more so.

We disagree. You are not a republican. But I do think you are naive.
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BzaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-11 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #139
140. It's not just Gallup though -- Every poll I have seen shows extremely high support from the left.
Edited on Fri Jan-14-11 09:05 PM by BzaDem
Even polls conducted by Democrats (such as PPP polling for Daily Kos, which has Liberal approval at 92-7 and Democratic approval at 83-15: http://www.dailykos.com/weeklypolling/2011/1/6). In the last week or two, there's also

Quinnipiac (Democratic at 85-10: http://www.quinnipiac.edu/x1295.xml?ReleaseID=1547),
Pew Polling (Democratic at 78-15, Liberal 72-18, Liberal Democrat 80-12: http://people-press.org/report/693/)
Reuters (Democratic at 77-20: http://ipsos-na.com/news-polls/pressrelease.aspx?id=5101)

So it is not just one poll -- if it were I might share your skepticism.

Gallup is the only one that I could find that compares Obama to past presidents. It shows that the Democratic approval rating for Obama is higher than the Democratic approval rating for every President except for JFK in the last 60 years.

In any case though, as far as substance goes, I think there is a large amount of evidence that there weren't 60 votes for Single Payer (Sanders himself said there were around 5), or a public option (Lieberman/Nelson/Lincoln/Landrieu said they would rather see no HCR than a public option). While a Medicare buy-in came closer, and was actually in the compromise agreed to by 10 Senators, Lieberman changed his mind at the last minute after some progressives started saying good things about it.

In all these cases, it is pretty clear to me that these few Senators (or in Single Payer's case, basically everyone) would have been happy to kill the bill if it had those elements in it. Even in the House, things like a "robust" public option tied to Medicare failed, after Pelosi tried and tried but couldn't get House members with rural hospitals to go for it.

"I don't believe that the highest priority in our country is getting the republicans to like us."

If Obama thought that was his highest priority, he would not have addressed any of the large issues in the last Congress, that resulted in Republican approval of him to be 13%. That would have been the easy way out.
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-15-11 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #140
141. So you trust all polls? That the thing?
As I said. We disagree. I could envy a carefree, positive attitude towards the shit we're in too, if I could just make feeling good a priority. You like to think that Obama did a wonderful job. I think he blew it. We won't ever be able to know whether he didn't do all he could or if all he could was just not good enough. We won't get the chance we had two years ago again.
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BzaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-15-11 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #141
145. Well not knowing whether he did all he could do is different than knowing he didn't.
Edited on Sat Jan-15-11 07:43 PM by BzaDem
I guess if all you are saying is

"We won't ever be able to know whether he didn't do all he could or if all he could was just not good enough,"

I would agree with that, in the sense that no one could ever know for sure whether any President did all they could do (as we don't live in their minds). I guess all of the evidence to the contrary could have been created for the purpose of misleading some people. But you could say the same about any President. Disapproving of Obama for the reason that we don't know for sure he did all he could would mean one would have to disapprove of every President (past and future) for the same reason, unless you are the actual President (since only the President knows what's in their own head).

As for polls, when all polls (partisan and non-partisan, media polls and non-profit polls, including polls that regularly and accurately predict election results) say the same thing over a period of many months, I tend to trust that thing. Even if one or two particular polls are bad, that still wouldn't refute the conclusion the rest of them share. We could disregard everything we don't personally observe, but that would involve discarding all of history as well (as well as entire scientific disciplines).
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 10:34 AM
Response to Original message
95. Sounds like an old fashioned patronage system
I work for you election, you give me something, like an office or influence.

This is just the wrong way to look at politics. Especially at a national level. If it were your county council person, there might be some chance that your corrupt views could be answered. But to expect a POTUS to be at your beck and call and "repay" you for your vote/work is silly and out of proportion.

And yet the same people claim to be the idealists!
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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
99. k&r nt
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 11:56 AM
Response to Original message
102. I only get a blank page when I go to the article on Salon.
And I can't get rid of the blank page.

Salon needs to choose: either it absolutely requires every reader to look at its obnoxious ads or it allows all readers to read its articles.

I assure you Salon. Your advertisers are not losing a sale if I don't actually stare at their ad for several minutes. I don't have enough money to buy a lot of stuff I don't need so there is no hope of a sale no matter what. And many, many Americans are in the same situation. I realize that you need to make money, but what is your mission? Making money or informing the public. You have to decide.
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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #102
103. I just clicked on the link and it worked for me.

I don't think anyone else is having a problem visiting Salon and reading the article.

Check your computer settings. I'm not sure what the problem is but perhaps some computer whiz can help you.

Ask around.

Hope you can find a fix soon.
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #103
108. I have my computer set so that it will not accept pop-ups.
It may be that Salon has an introductory pop-up. That is what I am objecting to.
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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #108
110. I think that's the problem.
Edited on Wed Jan-12-11 05:50 PM by Better Believe It
An ad pops up but you can bypass it and go directly to Salon by closing it.

At one time they had a subscription fee but dropped it in favor of ads.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 05:55 PM
Response to Original message
114. Agree or disagree, Glenn pisses off the right people.
Always fun to see the reaction on DU especially. :)
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KG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 06:08 AM
Response to Reply #114
124. +eleventy hundred
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robcon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
129. This is an old story: ignore AA's and leftists - they'll vote Democratic anyway.
n/t
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-15-11 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #129
142. That's the strategy.
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